in_nomine-digest Sunday, September 8 2002 Volume 01 : Number 2766 In this digest: IN> Fwd: Looking at Adam and Eve by David Sanda [ADMIN] Re: IN> Hey, E. Bertish ... Re: IN> Ping! RE: IN>Something to chew on Re: IN> Laurence, Courtly Manners, and a New Discord Re: IN> A brief meditation on "The Sword" Re: IN> Laurence, Courtly Manners, and a New Discord Re: IN> Looking at Adam and Eve Re: IN> A brief meditation on "The Sword" Re: IN> A brief meditation on "The Sword" Re: IN> Looking at Adam and Eve Re: IN> Looking at Adam and Eve Re: IN> Laurence, Courtly Manners, and a New Discord IN> Looking at Adam and Eve IN> Laurence and Nancy Re: IN> Laurence, Courtly Manners, and a New Discord Re: IN> Looking at Adam and Eve Re: IN> Looking at Adam and Eve IN> 2 questions Re: IN> 2 questions Re: IN> Aruanah_-_Kyriotate_of_Creation,_Angel_of_The_Moment ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 16:43:36 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Fwd: Looking at Adam and Eve by David Sanda >From: owner-in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 10:37:21 -0500 >Subject: BOUNCE in_nomine-l@lists.io.com: Non-member submission from [David Sanda ] > >Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 17:31:23 +0200 (Central Europe Daylight Time) >From: David Sanda >Subject: Re: IN> Looking at Adam and Eve > > >On Fri, 6 Sep 2002, Roger Williby wrote: > >> >> >About girls? It's not commonly agreed that Laurence is clueless about the >> >War, or even Council politics. Women troubles, OTOH -- well, nobody >> >expects Sir Galahad to be the Love Doctor. :-) >> >> I would expect Sir Galahad to be quite comfortable in areas concerning love, >> at least in the courtly and chivalric senses of the word. If you envision >> Laurence as a European knight figure, then it would follow that he should be >> rather well "acquainted" with the opposite sex. (Not that terms of sex or >> romantic love should even apply, but for the sake of argument, why not?) >> > >According to the legends, Sir Galahad was just a supreme warrior buut he >had no experience with women whatsoever. Knights frequently had a vow of >chastity and besides, Galahad recovered the holy grail and vanished... It >would be Lancelot, who fell for Guinevre and had various experiences with >her:) > >David > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 16:46:19 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: [ADMIN] Re: IN> Hey, E. Bertish ... At 12:45 AM +0000 9/6/02, Janet Anderson wrote: >Something with your name on it and a virus in it just tried (unsuccessfully) >to board my computer. Take note. Check the received headers -- it's now the fad for viruses (and spammers, often enough) to pull _two_ email addresses out of people's mailboxes before mailing themselves. One for the From field, and one for the To field. So -- while it's possible that E. Bertish has caught a virus, it's more probable that someone with _both_ your addresses in their mailboxes has it. Which could, indeed, be someone from the list. EVERYONE check their computers!!! (Because, next thing you know, it's likely to start generating bounces for me to deal with, claiming to be from the list, or me, or who knows. O:p ) - --Beth, List Admin http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/listrules.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 16:54:49 -0500 From: "Gregg Forge" Subject: Re: IN> Ping! >Crissaegrim has two properties which will be immediately obvious to its >wielder: it is blindingly fast, allowing for two attacks per round, and if >the wielder forgoes all attacks for a round, he may >defend with >Crissaegrim, adding its Power either to his defense roll >or to the check digit. Ah, I see someone else has taken a Nocturne in the Moonlight... Essence Prism: This relic appears as a finely polished crystal. This is, in facy, what it is; what sets it apart from ordinary crystals is that the growth is completely natural, and emerges in the state of polish in which it manifests. The true value of this particular reliquary is in the way that it is attuned to David's word; in essence, for each facet that the crystal possesses, the owner can use the Master of Geomancy distinction-attunement. Each use removes one of the facets, until it becomes a smoothed stone of little value. Each usage also, unless the owner is a Servitor of Stone or an allied Archangel, generates three points of disturbance per point of essence gained as the rush of essence has the same effect upon the Symphony as lightning upon the atmosphere. Some GMs may prefer to make the disturbance take the form of a tremor. Sadistic can let the quake's magnitude be one-tenth of the essence gained in Richter Scale magnitude. Kamika-Z, who can play those games too! (^_^) _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 17:04:00 -0500 From: "Gregg Forge" Subject: RE: IN>Something to chew on >--- Sirea Theyal wrote: > > Well, Adam [snip] and two black eyes. > >Wonder how he got those shiners. Somethin' tells me that Lilith didn't really fancy Adam taking those long, lingering gazes at the prancing does or the sheep. That, or the fact that he wanted to be on top. *Shrugs* Kamika-Z ...vroomin' away before the projectiles begin... _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 15:22:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Laurence, Courtly Manners, and a New Discord Why would this Discord automatically impose a penalty? Some women are flattered when a man hits on them, while most men are _thrilled_ when women flirt with them. This Discord makes more sense if observers of the appropriate orientation (i.e., anyone who would be attracted to the Celestial) or who would be in competition for the same partners perceives the Celestial as hitting on someone else. =====

Michael Walton, #US2002023848

"Don't repent. Stop sinnin'." -- old cowboy saying

__________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 15:27:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> A brief meditation on "The Sword" - --- Sirea Theyal wrote: > when people think of smiting evil and > such, they imagine it being a sword in nearly any > culture [snip] a class of weapons that the > world used as it's primary melee weapon until guns were > made. Not so -- that's the way things were in the West, but the West is not the world. Most Native American and African peoples never developed swords. They did use spears, though, so the phallic symbolism remains intact. Also, IN uses mainly Western archetypes, so the Sword is appropriate in that venue. =====

Michael Walton, #US2002023848

"Don't repent. Stop sinnin'." -- old cowboy saying

__________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 18:30:22 -0400 From: Cameron McCurry Subject: Re: IN> Laurence, Courtly Manners, and a New Discord > Why would this Discord automatically impose a penalty? I believe that it is from the attraction not being seen as a good thing. Yes, some people would be flattered, but they can also be made uncomfortable from the attention. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 18:33:51 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Looking at Adam and Eve At 7:54 AM +0300 9/6/02, Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW) wrote: [...] >There's been enough written this week along this line of thought that I have >a question. Does everyone's campaign include the fact that Adam was some >overbearing, bluffing, cowardly schmuck and Eve always considered a brain >dead moron? Actually, no. In the SSO, Lilith is the one who is around to tell the tale, and so it's slanted. OTOH, let me dig out some fic... (EDG, tell me if you put this in the INC so I can just URL-ref it? O:> ) - -------------------On Adam------------------------ "Adam was beautiful, too," she said, not to me but into the darkness. Earlier I had asked her -- begged, pleaded -- why I wanted her so, when I was never made for such hungers. She hadn't answered. "Brown and tawny," she continuted, not moving save to speak and breathe, not conjuring images with Song or hands of even a tilt of head. "His eyes were the color of fresh-dug earth, rich and deep. Every time I saw him, I wanted to touch him, stroke his chest and face, trace the muscles in his shoulders and back. Hold him within me and see the pleasure on his face..." She paused, just long enough for me to wonder if I should speak, then went on. "It's true, though, that legend that he would not be the one with his back to the grass. He had -- we had -- no clue how to ensure my pleasure as well as his, that way. It wasn't just that, though. He rarely wanted to explore, to know what was beyond the Garden, or why there were only two of us, or what made the sky blue, or any other thing I wondered about. He was not curious. Maybe he was supposed to be stability when I was randomness, the anchor to my kite, but when I returned after a day or two exploring, he never asked, 'Where did you go?' Always, it was 'Why weren't you here?' And he never listened to my reply, just as he never listened when I suggested some new position that might amuse us both. But he was beautiful, and leaving him was the hardest part of walking away." I reached out and touched her shoulder, soft and satin, white in the dark room. Even exhausted as she had already made me, my vessel tried to respond to the contact; I did not pull away. "Is that true?" I asked, which would have been inane if the night had not felt so ancient. She was silent for a moment, but then she answered, "It's what I remember." Her hair rustled as she shifted, shrugged. "But it was a long time ago, and I have spent much time with the Lightbringer since. Make of that what you will." And then she turned to me again, and I could not speak or wonder or think of anything but the sensual web of Her, until it seemed my soul was rent asunder. And so I must plead guilty to the charge of consorting with the Princess, though lust had not been in my heart when I first approached her. And I cannot tell if the information I gained was worth it. - --transcript from the trial of Zerahiah, Seraph of Destiny - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ In the SSO, Lilith is an Avatar of Free Will, and much the same creature that Yves and Kronos are (and human, yes; think about it). Or at least that's what Jean thinks, and events seem to support the theory. He believes that her very nature meant that she wouldn't have stayed put, due to boredom if nothing else, and she was actually God's stealth response to knowing that Lucifer was going to queer the deal somehow. He also thinks that neither side can win unless _she_ freely chooses it, and Lilith believes that if she does this, she will be extinguished, her purpose accomplished... But anyway. So the SSO Adam is probably less "Archie Bunker" and more, well, clueless. Eve was more in tune with him, being created with one of his Forces. - --Beth's SSO .sig: (Want to hear more about the Superior Soap Opera? http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IN-SoapOpera ) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 22:35:50 +0000 From: "Sirea Theyal" Subject: Re: IN> A brief meditation on "The Sword" > > Not so -- that's the way things were in the West, but the >West is not the world. Most Native American and African >peoples never developed swords. They did use spears, >though, so the phallic symbolism remains intact. Also, IN >uses mainly Western archetypes, so the Sword is appropriate >in that venue. > True, which is why I said most of the world. The spear and such were still bladed or pointed weapons on a long hilt/shaft. And we had China, nearly all of Europe, Japan, much of Africa, and so on who had a sword-like weapon. _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 19:03:07 -0400 From: Michael Nutt Subject: Re: IN> A brief meditation on "The Sword" > In short, Laurence has made his Word be How the > Strong and Great Ought to Behave., or at least this > is the sector of the expanded Word that qualifies him > as Commander. Um... I was under the impression that it was the expressed will of God Almighty that had qualified him to command the Angelic Host. (Superiors 1, p.75) Perhaps God looked at Laurence's take on his Word, decided that it was good, and accordingly chose him to lead the Host. Perhaps God had some other reason in mind, ineffable or not, depending on the predilection of the GM. I think it's important to keep this aspect of Laurence's promotion in mind, though -- he wasn't *anyone's* choice to lead, except God. He's done a decent job, although he's had failures, but nobody predicted his ascent... ... except maybe Yves, and he never told anyone. Ponder the implications of that for a while. - -- Michael ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2002 00:19:07 +0000 From: "Sirea Theyal" Subject: Re: IN> Looking at Adam and Eve >In the SSO, Lilith is an Avatar of Free Will, and much the same creature >that Yves and Kronos are (and human, yes; think about it). Or at least >that's what Jean thinks, and events seem to support the theory. He >believes that her very nature meant that she wouldn't have stayed put, >due to boredom if nothing else, and she was actually God's stealth >response to knowing that Lucifer was going to queer the deal somehow. >He also thinks that neither side can win unless _she_ freely chooses it, >and Lilith believes that if she does this, she will be extinguished, >her purpose accomplished... > >But anyway. > >So the SSO Adam is probably less "Archie Bunker" and more, well, >clueless. Eve was more in tune with him, being created with one >of his Forces. Wow. That was a very nice fic there... odd, since I was considering making a "Consider Freedom" fic from all of this. - -Sirea, Free Cherub who's best friend would make a -great- "Servitor" of Freedom. > _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 19:27:59 -0500 From: "Gregg Forge" Subject: Re: IN> Looking at Adam and Eve >I wondered about this too, and was about to ask a) where it says this in >canon and b) if not, why this seemed to have gotten into the "IN List Urban >Legends" along with, for example, Laurence being clueless and all Lilim >having a thing for Malakim (neither of which I remember seeing in Canon >either). Actually, there's nothing about Laurence being clueless that's canon, but they present that option of presenting him in the GMG, and hint at the Boy Scout Playing A Man's Game in Sup1, so there's at least a bit of a subtle nudge in that direction. As for Lilim having a case of sigh-and-wistfully-long-for over Malakim, there' IS a Canon precedent, in the form of the IPG and the chapter discussing Bright Lilim. Kamika-Z, working off an Archives' Geas...(^_^); _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 19:50:10 -0500 From: "Gregg Forge" Subject: Re: IN> Laurence, Courtly Manners, and a New Discord >*snip* Anyone of the opposite sex *snip* anyone of the same sex will feel >as though the celestial is causing problems with the opposite sex. *snip* > >You haven't made any allowances for homosexuality here, would a gay man >assume that a celestial in a male vessel is hitting on him? Or would he >find himself thinking that he was in competition with said celestial? Truth be told, I think the best way for this to be handled is not as a purely orientation-based phenomenon, but rather as an indication of the magnitude of the discord. 1 - Minor cases of 'he's a bit too bold' or 'she's evidently easy' per the character's 'apparant' orientation 2 - Major cases of 'he's getting far too fresh' or 'could she get any trashier?' per the character's 'apparant' orientation 3 - Blatant insults and catty commentary from the apparant appropriate orientation, minor cases of 'mixed signals' for the same gender 4 - More hostile responses from the opposite sex, mild affront from the same sex 5 - No matter gender or orientation, you're seen as a sleazy ball of would-be pornstar/let-ness, and they want nothing to do with you. 6 - Everyone wants to shoot down your 'attempts'. Literally. Kamika-Z, who could see another of his characters with this... _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 22:17:27 -0400 From: BC Petery Subject: IN> Looking at Adam and Eve I think I understand why Lilith had a problem with the Eden Experiment. I don't know how many times I've heard, "I look like a beached whale, I need a crane to get out of this chair and if you ever get me pregnant again THESE ARE COMING OFF!" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 22:17:30 -0400 From: BC Petery Subject: IN> Laurence and Nancy > It would be reasonable to picture him as confused or repulsed or > both by any serious sexual advances, though he would be letter > perfect on the etiquette due a lady (or anyone else). Naw, he'd follow Nancy Regan's advice and just say, "No." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 23:06:19 -0500 From: "Gregg Forge" Subject: Re: IN> Laurence, Courtly Manners, and a New Discord > Why would this Discord automatically impose a penalty? >Some women are flattered when a man hits on them, while >most men are _thrilled_ when women flirt with them. That may be, but there's some people who have a way of making any kind of flirtation into the sort of disgusting, repulsive, stomach-turning overture that makes you want to hit them. And this Discord makes them look like amateurs. Kamika-Z, who still finds it entirely too amusing... _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 22:00:06 -0700 From: Kish Subject: Re: IN> Looking at Adam and Eve Charles Glasgow wrote: > > >From: "Janet Anderson" > >Subject: Re: IN> Looking at Adam and Eve > >Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 13:18:59 +0000 > > >I wondered about this too, and was about to ask a) where it says this in > >canon and b) if not, why this seemed to have gotten into the "IN List Urban > >Legends" along with, for example, Laurence being clueless > > About girls? He's a celestial. The idea that celestials pair-bond at all strikes me as over-anthropomorphizing, much less the idea that they pair-bond in "opposite-sex" couples. > >and all Lilim having a thing for Malakim (neither of which I remember > >seeing in Canon either). > > Actually, IIRC that's from the Bright Lilim section of the IPG. So it is > Canon. It's canon that the less-than-a-dozen Bright Lilim find Malakim magnificent. It's nowhere near canon that 99.99% of all Lilim are any more sanguine about Malakim than any other demons. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 22:00:10 -0700 From: Kish Subject: Re: IN> Looking at Adam and Eve Janet Anderson wrote: > > >There's been enough written this week along this line of thought that I > >have > >a question. Does everyone's campaign include the fact that Adam was some > >overbearing, bluffing, cowardly schmuck and Eve always considered a brain > >dead moron? > > > >Who let Archie and Edith Bunker into the Eden Experiment? > > > >What gives? > > > > I wondered about this too, and was about to ask a) where it says this in > canon and b) if not, why this seemed to have gotten into the "IN List Urban > Legends" along with, for example, Laurence being clueless and all Lilim > having a thing for Malakim (neither of which I remember seeing in Canon > either). > > Janet Anderson Let's not forget the idea of Michael and Novalis being something other than Hostile to each other. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2002 19:07:17 +0000 From: "carson young" Subject: IN> 2 questions Ok, 2 questions: 1: the attunenment sanctuary of the dead allows a servitor of death to warp to a buried body. Other than space, there seems to be no limitation on which body, implying you could go essentially anywhere for three essence. I assume this is not the intention of the attunement. Any thoughts? 2: which book is it that has the bright lilim attunements? Carson Young, habbalite of GM's _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2002 13:00:11 -0700 From: Kish Subject: Re: IN> 2 questions carson young wrote: > > 2: which book is it that has the bright lilim attunements? Fall of the Malakim has all of them. Each angelic Superiors book lists which attunements those Archangels grant their Bright Lilim. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 10:02:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Aruanah_-_Kyriotate_of_Creation,_Angel_of_The_Moment - --- Nick Ashton wrote: > Here is an Angel myself and a player have been working on > for an upcoming > angelics campaign, I thought I might share the background > with you. And I'll be happy to share my comments with you. 0:> > It is in the moment that God is to be seen, > anything that takes us away from God in the moment is the > beginning of the path away from God. Very nice summation of this angel's purpose and raison d'etre. > Since humanity has grown more sophisticated Aruanah has > adapted his role. > he is having great success through > promoting the Gospel > church, Jazz, Blues and other 'Music of Black Origin'. Interesting. One quibble (as an African-American, I am uniquely suited to comment on this); the music that you describe is far from being just a celebration of the moment. Rather it is something we Blacks see as a point of continuity that connects us to our heritage and our past. Not that I think that the Angel of the Moment wouldn't be concerned with such things, I merely point out that it's a very complex issue. > Despite this success, > he has again clashed with the more militant Archangels, > who are frustrated > by his unwillingness to force the music into direct > celebration of God. Now this is simply off. Gospel _is_ a direct celebration of God. Our saying in the Black community is this; "Those who kept the faith sing Gospel, those who lost the faith sing the Blues." By that reasoning, the Blues could very well be Hell's idea (maybe Valefor expanded his repetoire to steal a musical style...). One other thing -- while I can see the Angel of the Moment not having much to do with the hidebound organized church, the moment of religious ecstasy experienced by the individual believer happens most frequently in organized church services (in my experience, anyway). This suggests that Aruanah's feelings about organized religion would be mixed rather than simply hostile. =====

Michael Walton, #US2002023848

"Don't repent. Stop sinnin'." -- old cowboy saying

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