in_nomine-digest Monday, September 9 2002 Volume 01 : Number 2768 In this digest: Re: IN>Final Transmission? Re: IN>Final Transmission? RE: IN>Final Transmission? Re: IN> Revelations Cycle = Buggy? Re: IN> Revelations Cycle = Buggy? IN> Revelations Cycle = Buggy? IN>Our Name is Legion, for We are Many RE: IN>Final Transmission? Re: IN> Revelations Cycle = Buggy? Re: IN> Looking at Adam and Eve Re: IN> A brief meditation on "The Sword" Re: IN> Revelations Cycle = Buggy? Re: IN> Revelations Cycle = Buggy? RE: IN> Revelations Cycle = Buggy? RE: IN> Aruanah_-_Kyriotate_of_Creation,_Angel_of_The_Moment RE: IN> Revelations Cycle = Buggy? Re: IN> Revelations Cycle = Buggy? Re: IN> Revelations Cycle = Buggy? Re: IN> Revelations Cycle = Buggy? Re: IN> Revelations Cycle = Buggy? Re: IN>Final Transmission? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 10:24:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN>Final Transmission? - --- Sirea Theyal wrote: > And although I'm not sure what a Caul is, I'd like to > know how you treat Legion in that respect. Going by WW, a Caul is an infernal artifact. It is an instrument that corrupts the soul of the person going through it -- the process is both excrutiatingly painful and orgasmically pleasurable -- and binds the subject to the will of the otherworldly beings whom the Nephandi serve. WW canon is very clear that a Caul is not only a demon-tainted instrument, it is somehow alive. On the Legion front, I'd say that normal Shedim can't possess Cauls. How do you corrupt something that is already hellish in nature? A Shedite DP, however, would have access to resources that other Shedim would not. This could well give the demon the Caul's ability to corrupt humans. The catch is that a Caul normally only works if the subject is willing -- but the Shedite Resonance amplified by the Caul's corruptive powers might be able to circumvent that limitation. =====

Michael Walton, #US2002023848

"Don't repent. Stop sinnin'." -- old cowboy saying

__________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 13:39:23 -0400 From: "Josh Moger" Subject: Re: IN>Final Transmission? > Could be. But if Jean had influence in Mage society, it >would be with this group. As for Jean, I always figured that he first helped the Sons of Ether get established, but got frustrated until the Virtual Adepts defected from the Technocracy. With the Dreamspeakers, well... I admit to immediately throwing them to Blandine. Euthantos- actually, first Uriel, then the Archangel of Death, and now, they're kinda the pariah of Heaven until they can get some new sponsorship. Verbena- You know. Jordi works. I never even thought of that... I kept trying to think up a way of adapting them with Novalis, but they're just too violent and bloody. Still, an interesting idea of a primordial Novalis. Perhaps an incarnation of her that no one talks about? Celestial Chorus- Actually, figured these guys would be a good match for Yves, seeing as how he also is the one who first began promoting monotheism. Akashic Brotherhood- Laurence? Michael? Constant struggle between these two? Sons of Ether- As much as I would like to give the Cultists to Eli and be done with it, this tradition just screams Creation. Plus, he'd probably be trying to help them loosen up a little. Cult of Ecstasy- Yes yes, Eli Eli Eli. But wait- a need to break up in the static order? The ability to mess around with Time? Eli might have helped them get started, but Janus has all but taken them over. Order of Hermes- Hmm... strict order. Constant vigilance amongst their own ranks. Stuffy research. Lots and lots and lots of robes and steeped in history. Dominic... yeah, definitely Dominic. As for the Technocracy- Well, I'll get to that in the next e-mail. Class calls. Josh ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 15:21:46 -0400 From: "S.D." Subject: RE: IN>Final Transmission? >> What about those Sons of Ether weirdos's? Sounds like >> Kobal poking fun at Vapula to me. > > Could be. But if Jean had influence in Mage society, it >would be with this group. I've always pegged the Virtual Adepts as Lightning, myself. Alternately, Nybbas and Jean are fighting over them, while Jean and Vapula fight over the Sons of Ether. And really, given most of the motivations behind the Technocracy, it's *got* to be Jean. (With a dash of Vapula in Iteneration X, Marc and Mammon in the Syndicate, Nybbas in the NWO, Novalis/Jordi/Eli/Fleurity in the Progenitors, and Blandine/Beleth (formerly Vephar/Oannes) in the Void Engineers.) Maybe Jean even set up the original Order of Reason... Traditions... Akashics are David, Ecstasics are Eli/Andre (with Fleurity and Furfur trying to get involved), Dreamspeakers are Jordi/Blandine, Euthies are Yves/Kronos with Saminga and the AA of Death sneaking in behind their backs, Hermetics are Yves/Kronos (with some Dominic/Asmodeus?), Verbena are Novalis/Eli with a dash of Jordi, VAs and SoEs are as above. Hollowers...I want to say Dark Humor and *only* Dark Humor, but I'm not entirely sure why. Nephandi are Fate all over (formerly with help from Corruption and Oblivion), and Marauders are *so* insane/dark/backwards!Eli. Think about it. ~S.D. Ryukage ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "God not only plays dice. He sometimes throws the dice where they cannot be seen." Stephen Hawking ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 16:03:31 -0400 From: Cameron McCurry Subject: Re: IN> Revelations Cycle = Buggy? > I saw Ms. McCoy mention recently that the Revelations cycle was > generally considered "buggy," or some such. > > What is the reason for this conclusion? There are a lot of reasons that people on this list feel that way. I won't speak for everyone, just throw in my own two observations. 1. The Rev Cycle railroads players more effectively than Amtrak. No decision they make has any consequence on the outcome of the game itself. 2. There are gaping plot holes throughout the whole series. Certain things occur throughout that simply don't make a shred of sense. I had originally planned on putting one of my groups through the Rev Cycle. Then I read through it and tried to make a few changes so it would run more smoothly. The end result was an adventure that had nothing in common with the original books other than the name, so I gave up on the idea. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 20:24:07 +0000 From: "Sirea Theyal" Subject: Re: IN> Revelations Cycle = Buggy? > There are a lot of reasons that people on this list feel that way. >I won't speak for everyone, just throw in my own two observations. > >1. The Rev Cycle railroads players more effectively than Amtrak. No >decision they make has any consequence on the outcome of the game >itself. > >2. There are gaping plot holes throughout the whole series. Certain >things occur throughout that simply don't make a shred of sense. > > I had originally planned on putting one of my groups through the Rev >Cycle. Then I read through it and tried to make a few changes so it >would run more smoothly. The end result was an adventure that had >nothing in common with the original books other than the name, so I gave >up on the idea. I too wondered on this. I admit I got excited at the idea that there was a Fallen Malak, and was a little upset when I learned it was all posh ^_^ but what makes the rest of the series so icky? _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 16:47:38 -0400 From: BC Petery Subject: IN> Revelations Cycle = Buggy? > I saw Ms. McCoy mention recently that the Revelations > cycle was generally considered "buggy," or some such. Mostly plot holes and mangled statistics. The Biggest plot hole was in Fall of the Malakim. Max, the Malakim, screwed up and was punished by his AA, David. Max had to go to Los Angeles and play nice with the demons who ran the city. The concept was that not killing demons caused Max dissonance. The plot hole is that since AA Davy told him to allow evil to live it wouldn't be Max's choice, and therefore would not generate dissonance. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 21:41:06 +0000 From: "Sirea Theyal" Subject: IN>Our Name is Legion, for We are Many Well, seeing as how the original topic has taken a split (Legion and IN-WW) I'll start the Legion topic :D How do you have Legion affect your game world and history? I personally have his/it's rampage as being a very Dark and painful time for the Host and Horde alike, which destroyed much of their resources and power. Thousands of demons and angels died, multiple Superiors were weakened, and my Rapahel died VERY permanently. The history goes that around 1000 AD or so, Legion, a strong but minor Shedite of Death managed to possess multiple people in a very messed up Intervention. He got the entire village under his control, and eventually Saminga took notice, and in turn told Lucifer. It was a creepy scene to have over 50 people with slightly blackened skin and pale yellow eyes all speaking in perfect syncrocity to the Lightbringer as he granted the leering Shedite the coveted Word of Corruption. Legion went on to possess many villages at once, and eventually, he possessed a small city of people in the Russian region, and this got Dominic and Asmodeus very worried. Asmodeus sent a squadron of Game demons to spy Legion out, but they never returned. Asmodeus sent a second squad, and the same thing happened. By now, Legion had possessed a large majority of Russia and some of Europe, and Asmodeus himself went to stop the Shedite. He was nearly killed. That day, he went and spoke with Dominic, and a few days later Heaven and Hell assembeled on the Marches together to start the dreaded Legion Campaign. Angels and demons went to the Marches to scout out Legions work, and the others went to the Coporeal plane to seek it out and kill it. What the Superiors found was horrible. Any human it corrupted and possessed was -killed-, their souls were ripped from the Symphony and disbanded! This was causing Yves and the new kid Kronos much personal pain, as the Symphony itself was starting to erode and be corrupted. Years passed as Heaven and Hell worked to kill every Legionite they found, and tried to corner it off in the Celestial Plane. Legion had spread like a disease over much of the world, and there were many pockets of his influence, but he had taken a lot of Europe and a majority of Russia. After a grueling battle between 10,000 possessed and an army of Michael and Baal's, they finally managed to force Legion into the outer parts of Hell. Every angel and demon went to Hell and began to kill the mad Prince before he repossessed any more humans, and celestials began to die by the hundreds. Many Superiors were severly wounded and had to reatreat, and eventually it was down to Michael, Baal, Kronos, Yves, Lucifer (who stood impartial and observing), Eli, Raphael, Novalis, Laurence, Jean, Kobal, Saminga, and a small army of various demons and angels. Michael, Baal, Eli, Laurence, Saminga and Kronos all fought the hideously powerful abomination, while the other stood aside and healed, or tried to stop Legion from spreading again. Eventually, after another 100 or so celestials hurled themselves at the Prince and died, Raphael searched her Word and found the solution to the situation... She called for all the Superiors to stand aside and blast the creature with Celestial Songs of Light, or whatever was available. They all did so, and while it did not kill Legion, it did hold it in place long enough for Rapahael to gather all of her Word power... and hurl herself at the Mad Prince in one blazing glory of light. The two Words collided on their most fundamental level, and Raphael nearly Fell. She managed to wrack every last ounce of her Word for the solution, and found it, penetrating the Shedite's defenses. A silent wall of light expanded and shone through all of Hell and Heaven as Rapahael's and Legion's Forces were scattered to the four corners of reality, and thus destroying both of them permanently. This was the first time Jean ever showed extreme emotions, as he screamed for Raphael to stop, as his face contorted in pain and fear. Oddly, he did not gain dissonance from his outburst... and Yves was seen crying as he kept a stoic face. When all was said and done, the Superiors of Heaven and Hell numbly left to go back to their respected sides, to heal back up and clean the mess that was left. It took much of Mariels Word power to erase what had happened from human history, and Heaven and Hell were at peace for a time as they recovered. At the site where it had all happened, only Yves, Jean and Lucifer stayed when everyone else had left. Jean was emotionless, but stared intently at the spot where Raphael had died. Yves stood with his hand on Jean's shoulder, and looked with a sad face at Lucifer. Eventually, the Lightbringer shrugged and turned, leaving the site where the potential death of the Symphony had ended. _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 19:37:55 -0300 From: pbarkow@hfx.eastlink.ca Subject: RE: IN>Final Transmission? On 9 Sep 2002 at 10:17, Michael Walton wrote: > > What about those Sons of Ether weirdos's? Sounds like > > Kobal poking fun at Vapula to me. > > Could be. But if Jean had influence in Mage society, it > would be with this group. That seems totally out of character for him. Son of Ether are mad scientist types. Jean would be Technocracy all the way, they're the orderly logical types with a strict policy against blatant demonstration of 'science' in advance of the current paradigm. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 18:09:47 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Revelations Cycle = Buggy? At 4:28 PM -0700 9/8/02, Jim Forman wrote: >What is the reason for this conclusion? I imagine >that it must indeed be a widely-held idea, for the >Line Editor herself to say so. Well, among other reasons, there was a Line Editor interregnum -- some books had, basically, no continuity checking, and multiple authors. There are some plausibility holes in FotM's LA. There are some sections which I simply consider annoying. There is apparently a missing bit of geography in Final Trumpet, and the adventure there is a bit of a railroad. (Yes, I know my name is in those; they're better than they were, but they were mostly written by the time I took the reins...) [...] >(specifically, I still need Marches and Final Trumpet). >The reason I ask whether the Rev. Cycle is indeed >buggy is not just a matter of game mechanics (or >whatever causes people to consider the Cycle sub-par), >but also a matter of money. Any help out there? If you're considering things from a money point of view... The Marches contains: Blandine (10 page expansion) Menumin (Which I may be misspelling -- not brain-burned correct yet) Beleth Pachadim Gabriel Belial Sorcery The Marches - rules Ethereal pantheons An adventure Beleth, Pachadim, Belial, and the "long" form of the ethereal pantheons are in The Marches alone. So is the adventure. The adventure... is not, I fear, to my tastes. It involves some material which is a little hinky for my tastes, in the nuances and implications for the universe, and it just doesn't grab me. Others may have differing opinions. (Feel free to discuss!) Blandine gets a 30-ish expansion (including all the material from the Marches) in Superiors 3: Hope and Prophecy. Menumin are also in S3, as is Gabriel's 30-page expansion. Menumin are rather revised. The Corporeal Player's Guide heavily revises sorcery. The forthcoming in December (according to the Daily Illuminator, a few days back) Ethereal Player's Guide will include Marches mechanics, very short overviews of pantheons, and a lot of guides on how to make your own ethereals. It may somewhat invalidate certain aspects of the example ethereals in _The Marches_, but one could probably just tack on a few elements and affinities to suit personalities and run with that. The Final Trumpet contains: Baal (10 page expansion) Malphas (ditto) Michael (ditto) Kobal (ditto) The Big Honking Adventure Baal, Malphas, and the Big Honking Adventure appear nowhere else, yet. There are some NPCs in the adventure which appear on Pyramid; search the archives for In Nomine, Heavenly Hell-jobs, or some-such. (For all I know, they might even be in the public archives...) Michael appears, in a 30-page expansion upon the 10 page expansion, in Superiors 1: War and Honor. Kobal appears, yadda ditto yadda, in Superiors 2: Pleasures of the Flesh. (BTW, I consider the Angelic Player's Guide to have buggy material -- mostly in the additional check digit tables. White those out, use the main text, you'll likely be fine... Some of the APG is really good, some is up against the wall someday. The trick is telling what; check the errata, too. The Infernal Player's guide is much better.) Now, if you're willing to do a tad of work customizing the adventures in FotM and Final Trumpet to your group, you can probably get milage out of those. (For good adventures, I suggest looking for the one that came with the GM screen -- it's out of print, but ebay sometimes has a copy or two.) Some people have had a _great_ time with the Rev Cycle. Some people hate it. If you can get them cheap on ebay, it's probably useful for the Superior writeups, at least. (And Final Trumpet is a _lovely_ book, artwise. Marches has rather a lot of good art, too; Perez's Gabriel is MMMMM-MMMMM, FINE.) (Heaven & Hell is actually an overall pretty good book. It's got some flaws (check errata...), and it's not tied into the concept of "a big overarching plot" (but that was first on the chopping block during the interregnum anyway), but it's got a lot of good material. If you do a lot of stuff in the celestial realm, though, you'll probably also want to pick up You Are Here, which has a review in rpg.net's archives that is much more descriptive than I can manage. O:> ) Come to think of it, there are a fair number of reviews of many In Nomine books at RPG.net. I don't agree with all of them, of course, but it is a cross-section of opinion that you might find of use. - --Beth, arcangel@io.com / archangel@sjgames.com In Nomine Line Editor http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 18:25:38 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Looking at Adam and Eve At 10:55 AM -0500 9/6/02, Earl Wajenberg wrote: [Galahad bit snipped] >Translating this to Laurence, it's hard to believe a millenia-old >Archangel would be confused by flirtations from Bright Lilim or >other celestial groupies, but he might well be embarassed or >annoyed. He might be confused about _why_ they felt it necessary. Or confused about why someone was acting so strangely -- until he realized it was this weird "hormonal emulation thing" again and got Patiently Exasperated. (Regarding Brights and Blackwings, part of it is a skewed reaction to the knowledge that Malakim and Lilim are often deemed "opposites" in the Choir/Band rankings; between the "now they _protect_ me!" aspect, the fact that most Lilim are sensual beings who often go on a "let me make people happy!" kick after redemption, and the innate tendency to have "Band Family" that is indoctrinated into Lilim from the moment of their creation... They tend to have a very intense attraction. Add to that a common probability that redeemed Lilim might well be, at least a little, danger-junkies (to even THINK about redeeming), and it gets more probable.) (Don't get me started on the psychological stew that boils down to a few paragraphs which didn't come out entirely the way I wanted them to, upon retrospect. O:> And, of course, individuals may vary.) - --Beth, arcangel@io.com / archangel@sjgames.com In Nomine Line Editor http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 18:31:17 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> A brief meditation on "The Sword" At 11:28 AM -0500 9/6/02, Earl Wajenberg wrote: >In short, Laurence has made his Word be How the Strong and Great >Ought to Behave., or at least this is the sector of the expanded >Word that qualifies him as Commander. It has also been speculated, in the SSO, that another reason that Laurence was elevated by God _is_ his relative youth and flexibility. Yes, you heard that right, flexibility. Laurence's youth means that he hasn't lived through the times when Patience was not only the best option, but just about the only one, for aeons or centuries. He's more adapted to fast-paced human innovation. And while he's still shakey on the concepts of "angels can make mistakes" (like they do a lot of those in Purity, and live?), he's got it hammered home that "Humans do WEIRD THINGS and you can't count on herding them!" He respects humans and their free will. And that's probably a pretty important thing; a lot of the others, how ever much they respect God's plans for humans, undoubtedly still see them as a momentary blip, a newfangled thing. Or else they've seen humans long enough to become, well, innured to them. So those two aspects, somewhat nascent though they probably are, make Laurence's elevation a much more understandable thing. (And it's probably why someone's Regression Device (Moe, was that you?) is hinted to make Laurence turn into a Mercurian if he "regressed" past the state-change of Malakite.) The above was not spoken ex cathedra; merely as something that came up during gaming discussions. - --Beth, arcangel@io.com / archangel@sjgames.com In Nomine Line Editor http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 18:42:28 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Revelations Cycle = Buggy? From: "Cameron McCurry" > > 1. The Rev Cycle railroads players more effectively than Amtrak. No > decision they make has any consequence on the outcome of the game > itself. The players' actions are what decides whether Khalid will fall or not, and whether the holiest man on Earth dies by demonic hands; I would say that being able to thwart Lucifer's plan for the Archangel of Faith's corruption and the Apocalypse itself would qualify as having consequences on the outcome. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 18:20:54 -0600 From: "Wade Lahoda" Subject: Re: IN> Revelations Cycle = Buggy? - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Elizabeth McCoy" > Well, among other reasons, there was a Line Editor > interregnum -- some books had, basically, no continuity > checking, and multiple authors. There are some > plausibility holes in FotM's LA. There are some sections > which I simply consider annoying. There is apparently a > missing bit of geography in Final Trumpet, and the > adventure there is a bit of a railroad. (Yes, I know my > name is in those; they're better than they were, but > they were mostly written by the time I took the reins...) I, personally, would be interested in hearing more specifics on what problems and pitfalls people see in the Rev Cycle - and maybe suggestions on how to "patch" the adventure. Both from line developers and less distinguished persons. ;) I've got the five books, and I'd like to use large parts of them someday - but advance warning of where things can go wrong would be good. I wish I'd had the advantage of speaking to a GM who had already run White Wolf's Giovanni Chronicles before I attempted those, for instance. In the Giovanni Chronicles, large numbers of problems could have been avoided if I'd just known ahead of time what huge gaping problems can start off as small, easily rewritten bad patches. I imagine it is the same for the Rev. Cycle. A. Wade Lahoda ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 01:46:12 +0100 From: "Nick Ashton" Subject: RE: IN> Revelations Cycle = Buggy? Wade Lahoda said > I, personally, would be interested in hearing more specifics on what > problems and pitfalls people see in the Rev Cycle - and maybe > suggestions on > how to "patch" the adventure. Both from line developers and less > distinguished persons. ;) I've got the five books, and I'd like to use > large parts of them someday - but advance warning of where things can go > wrong would be good. I would second that, there is clearly a widely recognized set of difficulties, some of which I can see but I too would like warning of others. Thanks AA Beth for giving a fairly comprehensive description but... can the list members between them catalogue the issues in full? If compiled it would make a worthy article in fact. I am baffled as to what sort of continuity there is supposed to be in terms of a campaign, but then I only have I-III so far... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 01:57:28 +0100 From: "Nick Ashton" Subject: RE: IN> Aruanah_-_Kyriotate_of_Creation,_Angel_of_The_Moment Michael Walton sayeth: > And I'll be happy to share my comments with you. 0:> Nice! :) > Interesting. One quibble (as an African-American, I am > uniquely suited to comment on this); the music that you > describe is far from being just a celebration of the > moment. Rather it is something we Blacks see as a point of > continuity that connects us to our heritage and our past. > Not that I think that the Angel of the Moment wouldn't be > concerned with such things, I merely point out that it's a > very complex issue. I need it to be a complex issue, and the PC servitor of Aruanah is going to be encountering several of the complexities (indeed the point of the NPC is to facilitate a PC that will explore the complexities). Although this won't neccessarily be one of them. But yes, I take the point. And remember its a heritage and past that Aru is very connected to (and he doesn't connect himself to many things that exist outside of the present). The expression itself, and sharing that expression with a great many people, is what Aru really encourages- to the Angel of the Moment it probably couldn't be less complex. > > > Despite this success, > > he has again clashed with the more militant Archangels, > > who are frustrated > > by his unwillingness to force the music into direct > > celebration of God. > > Now this is simply off. Gospel _is_ a direct celebration > of God. Our saying in the Black community is this; "Those > who kept the faith sing Gospel, those who lost the faith > sing the Blues." By that reasoning, the Blues could very > well be Hell's idea (maybe Valefor expanded his repetoire > to steal a musical style...). Its not that Aru discourages the celebration of god through music, indeed I would see him as a champion and indeed patron of the gospel church (as it doesn't seem to have one in canon), it would be something that even the most hostile AA would have to regard as a triumph of his approach, and he would even have rites specifically oriented to this. The point was that he wouldn't ever *force* the point, and would himself be almost as likely to recognise the blues as a celebration of God. Provided there was no encouragement to evil of course... those demons're *always* trying to get an angle, and its not really Valefor you have to watch but Andrealphus and Malphas (and sometimes Kobal). And Belial of course, with Mammon and Fleurity never far away from the artists' tent... I'm sure you can picture Laurence, seeing the success of Gospel and its many variants and derivatives, trying to strong-arm Aru into pushing it a bit harder. Aru knows that its gotta have soul, and you just can't manufacture that. :) > One other thing -- while I can see the Angel of the > Moment not having much to do with the hidebound organized > church, the moment of religious ecstasy experienced by the > individual believer happens most frequently in organized > church services (in my experience, anyway). This suggests > that Aruanah's feelings about organized religion would be > mixed rather than simply hostile. True enough. Organised worship *in itself* would not offend The Moment, after all even a love-in takes *some* organisation. And despite the derogatory reference to Handel, a room full of people united by its message would please Aru greatly. His involvement with the heavenly politics of religion is likely to be restricted to dodging it as deftly as possible though. :) Actually I took a liberty with this section of the writeup for two reasons, one cos I thought it was a logical extension of the word and needed doing, secondly I'm running the Rev.I scenario (or a mangled version of it) and thought it was a good pull for the servitor of Aru to be faced with the rise of Furfur. Sorry if that sounds a bit throwaway BTW, I don't underestimate the complexity of the issues and only felt justified in that no IN writeup (that I've read anyway) has approached these areas... I can understand why mind you as its gotta be at least as contentious as undermining the Catholic Church. Maybe only an Angel like Aru is equipped to deal with human issues this complex...? *** Actually I was as much if not more concerned with a) Whether Aru should really be an Ofanim? b) How to work his attunements if he does go Archangel... trouble is I can see at least one attunement of Novalis' (Mercurian) that fits better with my concept for Aruanah (in fact would Aru serve Novalis or Blandine more readily than Eli..?). Ideas? c) What to throw into the scenarios to reflect the polical maneouvrings that might accompany the appointment of Aruanah as an Archangel, and in particular how this affects the PC group. I'm dealing mostly with servitors of soft to middling angels, no real 'war' factioners (Novalis, Jean and Yves so far). ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 21:05:53 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: RE: IN> Revelations Cycle = Buggy? At 1:46 AM +0100 9/10/02, Nick Ashton wrote: >I am baffled as to what sort of continuity there is supposed to be in terms >of a campaign, but then I only have I-III so far... Exactly. The adventures were supposed to be linked. Alain did some heroic efforts, and Final Trumpet does, indeed, link material from all of the preceeding four books. But it's not intuitive as you go through them. - --Beth, arcangel@io.com / archangel@sjgames.com In Nomine Line Editor http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 21:30:21 -0400 From: Cameron McCurry Subject: Re: IN> Revelations Cycle = Buggy? (Somewhat mild spoilers for those who don't actually have the Rev Cycle books) > The players' actions are what decides whether Khalid will fall or not, After they are either Outcast or branded as Renegades following the events of FOTM. They have no choice about this and no chance to solve the events in a better way. > and whether the holiest man on Earth dies by demonic hands; As opposed to actually having a chance to save him, which is not an option. > I would say that being able to thwart Lucifer's plan for the Archangel of > Faith's corruption and the Apocalypse itself would qualify as having > consequences on the > outcome. Yes it would. But there are so many situations in the whole adventure that causes the characters to have no influence on the outcome. And that is part of the reason I felt that the Rev Cycle was quite flawed. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 18:45:22 -0700 From: Kish Subject: Re: IN> Revelations Cycle = Buggy? Cameron McCurry wrote: > > (Somewhat mild spoilers for those who don't actually have the Rev Cycle books) > > > After they are either Outcast or branded as Renegades following the events > of FOTM. ...in, I might add, a direct violation of Dominic's dissonance conditions which he apparently feels no dissonance from. > > and whether the holiest man on Earth dies by demonic hands; > > As opposed to actually having a chance to save him, which is not an option. He dies By Hands Not Mortal either way. Prophecy fulfilled. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 21:39:44 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Revelations Cycle = Buggy? From: "Cameron McCurry" > (Somewhat mild spoilers for those who don't actually have the Rev Cycle books) > > > > > > > > The players' actions are what decides whether Khalid will fall or not, > > After they are either Outcast or branded as Renegades following > the events of FOTM. I wasn't arguing against the statement that the PCs are railroaded, just the claim that their actions made no difference in the adventure's outcome. > They have no choice about this and no chance to solve the events > in a better way. That's irrelevant to the question of whether their actions can make a difference, however. They can both prevent Armageddon and the fall of an Archangel, both of which count as making a difference. > > and whether the holiest man on Earth dies by demonic hands; > > As opposed to actually having a chance to save him, which is not > an option. Actually, after reading the pertinent part of the adventure, I find that I was mistaken about the PCs being able to affect this. But my overall point still stands. > > I would say that being able to thwart Lucifer's plan for the Archangel > > of Faith's corruption and the Apocalypse itself would qualify as > > having consequences on the outcome. > > Yes it would. But there are so many situations in the whole adventure > that causes the characters to have no influence on the outcome. They can prevent the Apocalypse from taking place by stopping the sixth trumpet from blowing; how does that qualify as having no influence on the outcome? While the railroading is indeed a problem, the other reason you cite for disliking the adventure is one that simply isn't so. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 18:20:54 -0600 From: "Wade Lahoda" Subject: Re: IN> Revelations Cycle = Buggy? - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Elizabeth McCoy" > Well, among other reasons, there was a Line Editor > interregnum -- some books had, basically, no continuity > checking, and multiple authors. There are some > plausibility holes in FotM's LA. There are some sections > which I simply consider annoying. There is apparently a > missing bit of geography in Final Trumpet, and the > adventure there is a bit of a railroad. (Yes, I know my > name is in those; they're better than they were, but > they were mostly written by the time I took the reins...) I, personally, would be interested in hearing more specifics on what problems and pitfalls people see in the Rev Cycle - and maybe suggestions on how to "patch" the adventure. Both from line developers and less distinguished persons. ;) I've got the five books, and I'd like to use large parts of them someday - but advance warning of where things can go wrong would be good. I wish I'd had the advantage of speaking to a GM who had already run White Wolf's Giovanni Chronicles before I attempted those, for instance. In the Giovanni Chronicles, large numbers of problems could have been avoided if I'd just known ahead of time what huge gaping problems can start off as small, easily rewritten bad patches. I imagine it is the same for the Rev. Cycle. A. Wade Lahoda ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 00:43:47 -0400 From: "Josh Moger" Subject: Re: IN>Final Transmission? > >As for the Technocracy- > So. The common ways of looking at the Technocracy (ie. the stereotypes) show a globe spanning organization with the central goal of controlling the minds and lives of every individual by stamping out difference and placing the world in a gray, static hell. Yeah, and Dominic's a Balseraph, Yves and Kronos are the same entity, and the entire reason the War hasn't ended yet is because Novalis is slowly harvesting the essence of every soul in creation in order to establish her own new Garden. In other words- instand of canon White Wolf, it's really just the pessimistic manner in which a lot of Mage players see the Techonocracy. The truth is... well... if anything the Technocracy could be seen as the third option. Instead of following Heaven or serving Hell, the Technocrats want to bring about the fulfillment of humanity. To that end, about six hundred or so years ago, the Order of Reason coalesced and slowly grew into the Technocracy. Instead of a very few individuals having a strangehold on magic and the ability to change the world, the Technocracy has championed the masses. They've created science and helped make sure that their form of techno-magic has been accepted by the consensus (indeed, if you read the latter Mage books printed in that last couple of years, White Wolf has pretty much said that the Technocracy won and the Traditions are now trying to adapt to the world instead of adapting the world to them). Sure, there are bad apples, but then, there are bad ones in the Traditions as well- Except, they just became Nephandi. The Technocracy doesn't even have to be aware of Heaven and Hell. Most of them seem to be atheists anyway. They just believe that beings like angels are reality deviants- well, how do you explain the loud paradox that occurs whenever so-called 'celestials' use quintessence to fuel their magic? As for the other sides... Heaven: Jean has been keeping an eye on these guys since their formation. He sees their reluctance to bring the magi-tech stuff as a definite plus, but is less amused by their intolerance of the former members, the Sons of Ether and the Virtual Adepts, the latter of which he snatched up in a very un-Elohite show of haste after their defection from the Technocrats. Further, Jean finds it fascinating that, after a couple of times when he's been able to examine Technocrats, he's found evidence of Archangelic forces (much recycled) present in their Avatar. While this is in of itself intriguing, the fact that these forces are so familiar... so very very... well... Jean has been keeping his Knowledge of these instances catalogued. Marc also has been watching the Technocracy, due to their Syndicate convention. He, Jean, David, and a few other Archangels keep one manifestation watching the Technocracy for possible taint from Hell as well as opening for Heaven. So far, the Technocracy remains resolutely human oriented. Hell: Vapula and Mammon haven't so much been staring at these guys as they have been salivating. Fortunately for the Technocracy, the Demon Princes are finding the organization as difficult to infiltrate as their Heavenly counterparts. Actually, one alternate view of IN history (and really, we're not exactly chained to canon at the moment) could have Lilith defecting around the same time that the Order of Reason forms. Human Superior supporting a human organization? Josh (oh, and I forgot who mentioned David as the supporting superior for the Akashics- That actually works rather well. Completely didn't see it.) ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2768 ********************************