in_nomine-digest Wednesday, October 2 2002 Volume 01 : Number 2795 In this digest: RE: IN> Espira, Djinn of Corruption, Demon of Redemption RE: IN> Espira, Djinn of Corruption, Demon of Redemption Re: IN> Espira, Djinn of Corruption, Demon of Redemption RE: IN> Espira, Djinn of Corruption, Demon of Redemption Re: IN> The Event--Dialing Range IN> Free Will, Malakim, and One Lone Demon Re: IN> New to list and a status update IN> Today is Name-Your-Car Day Re: IN> Espira, Djinn of Corruption, Demon of Redemption Re: IN> Free Will, Malakim, and One Lone Demon Re: IN> Espira, Djinn of Corruption, Demon of Redemption Re: IN> Archangel of Fear. Re: IN> Espira, Djinn of Corruption, Demon of Redemption IN> Another "urban legend" Re: IN> Another =?iso-8859-1?Q?=22urban=20legend=22?= IN> Comes the Night, Comes the Terrible Dawn Re: IN> Another "urban legend" Re: IN> Today is Name-Your-Car Day Re: IN> Comes the Night, Comes the Terrible Dawn Re: IN> Espira, Djinn of Corruption, Demon of Redemption Re: IN> Comes the Night, Comes the Terrible Dawn IN> Chickstuff (Re: Espira) NOTE CHANGED SUBJECT Re: IN> Espira, Djinn of Corruption, Demon of Redemption Re: IN> Paradoxes IN> Worlds One and Two (RE: The Event) Re: IN> Re: Servitor of Eli ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 21:52:58 +0300 From: "Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW)" Subject: RE: IN> Espira, Djinn of Corruption, Demon of Redemption - -----Original Message----- From: Michael Walton [mailto:thunderdog_sa@yahoo.com] Here's another way to look at it. Malakim can't Fall because to do so is to cease to exist. Remember their first Oath; "I will not suffer an evil to live if it is my choice." By becoming evil, they become that which they have sworn to destroy. By binding their souls to that Oath they may not make it impossible to Fall so much as they make it impossible to _survive_ Falling. This leaves them room to struggle against evil within themselves, but for Malakim losing that struggle means being recycled back into the Symphony. =====

Michael Walton, #US2002023848

DS1 That's fine. It is the same as the Malakim police their own ranks and destroy any who show too much dissonance or discord. It does take the idea of "self policing" to a bit of an extreme, but at least it shows they have a soul instead of being an automaton. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 22:02:35 +0300 From: "Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW)" Subject: RE: IN> Espira, Djinn of Corruption, Demon of Redemption - -----Original Message----- From: EDG [mailto:anthoch@earlham.edu] You're making a boolean distinction between free will and no free will. I'm pointing out that nothing *ever* has completely free will. A Seraph cannot become a Lilim; a Malakite cannot become a demon. Both are, at their core, the same restriction on free will. DS1 Sorry. Your entire debate boils down to philisophical and sematic tricks. Yeah, you're right. Adam and Eve didn't have free will because God didn't let them turn into birds. Forget about it. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 13:18:23 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Espira, Djinn of Corruption, Demon of Redemption Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW) wrote: >What does the Choir have to do with their Free Will? I can't turn into a >bug, but it doesn't effect my mind, my soul or my choices. Yes. If you >make it a fact that a Malakim cannot fall it means they do not have free >will. They can never conciously choose evil. They are always forced to >choose good because they cannot fall and so no evil can come to them. > >Or, as I stated last message, they become the biggest hypocrites in >existance. "I can do what ever evil I want because I can never fall so >gimmie a whore, find me some crack and let's burn some babies alive" because >after all, he is a Malakim and can never fall. > They would, however, accumulate massive amounts of dissonance and Discord until they became wretched monsters that any other angel would destroy. Yes, they can still choose evil and suffer for it, they just can't undergo the celestial state change that other angels can. I can commit all the evil I want and I won't turn into a demon. Does that mean I lack free will? - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 22:30:50 +0300 From: "Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW)" Subject: RE: IN> Espira, Djinn of Corruption, Demon of Redemption - -----Original Message----- From: David Edelstein [mailto:amadan@amadan.org] I can commit all the evil I want and I won't turn into a demon. Does that mean I lack free will? - -David DS1 Yes, because within the context of the game, of course no GM would let a player reach the level of discord that say, Max in FotM reaches. So if the consequences of the Malakim's actions never reflect upon them, then they have no free will. They are reduced to automatons who do only what is programmed (GM says you cannot do it because it would be evil and you cannot do evil) or they become hypocrites (I can do it because I can't fall but no one else can do it) Picking up dissonance and discord means that the chance they might fall exists. If they collect dissonance and discord, it means the actions they take do have consequences. If other Malakim see them picking up discord and dissonance, the offending Malakim will be removed before he falls. All of those are consequences due to the fact that a Malakim can fall. But if it is a given that Malakim cannot fall, then they are less than angels and even less than human. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 03:35:28 +0800 From: "Jeffery Watkins" Subject: Re: IN> The Event--Dialing Range Point is, instead of having a set brigtness and contrast from the start like other games, In Nomine has is flexible to begin with (with a "default" setting for those who want to follow the book or not have to tweak of course). It's one of the biggest reasons I love IN- it's the War between Heaven and Hell that I always admired and dreamed about for stories and such, but there's no set road to walk down to see it. You have unlimited AA's, DP's, world options and campaign settings you can tweak to create a huge spectrum of settings. I really like it. Chiming in unnecessarily with complete agreement Sirea! I've dreamed of doing a game like this since I first started gaming (tooo long ago late 70s) and before IN any game that dealt with angels and demons had ONE setting, no flexiability and hence no real creativity. Of course many games overall have improved over the years, but no one has crafted this setting so well for gaming than IN. Even for non-canon-ites like me! ;-) Jeff =) - -- __________________________________________________________ Download the FREE Opera browser at www.opera.com/download/ Free OperaMail at http://www.operamail.com/ Powered by Outblaze ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 13:37:23 -0600 From: sirea@softhome.net Subject: IN> Free Will, Malakim, and One Lone Demon I'm sorry to see people arguing over Malakim, free will, and Espira. Let me point this out though- Espira is not meant to be fair. Her situation is a unique one, and very Dark. She's meant to be a tragic character, an ironic one too, because of her position. She Fell from trying to do something selfless, but still against her nature, and then went on to become the one being in Hell most likely to ever Redeem, most -deserving- even, but she never can. If Malakim can't Fall, if all of Uriel's angels seem immune, then I can have one blasted demon who can never Redeem. And why not make it all the -more- ironic with the fact that she became the Demon of Redemption? Notice though that I said God's grace may be able to get her out of her unique trap, but until that day, she's stuck in Hell with a painfully Divine Word, an almost completely selfless nature, and no possible way of getting out. It's Dark, it's gritty, and it's not fair in the least, because it's -supposed- to be not fair. As for Malakim, Falling, and Free Will... well, the whole point is that it depends on your campaign, so I don't see much reason in arguing it. --- Sirea, Free Cherub, Angel who Wanders, petitioner for the Word of Eternity ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 14:38:52 -0500 From: Joe Reimers Subject: Re: IN> New to list and a status update Thanks again for the input. I originally started the group based in South Bend, IN (another college town, not quite as big) and ran them through "Feast of Blades" to get their (and my) feet wet with the the system. The group actually made sense for the area, especially considering Dominic's relationship to Catholicism, the presence of a major Catholic University (which happens to have a law school AND a theology department...) not to mention some serious scientific research going on in the area for Jean's servitor. Anyway, as I ran it, there were maybe 45-50 full (7+ Force) Celestials in the "box" stretching from Chicago to Detroit and south to Indianapolis, fairly evenly divided between Heaven and Hell. By my best rough estimate, that works out to maybe 1 angel and 1 demon per 1,000,000 humans. Anyway, long story made short, I ran the adventure, the group calculated at the end that they had encountered 6 to 7 demons in the course of the entire adventure (which took place in Chicago) and were very happy with the fact that there wasn't a demon behind every corner. I particularly enjoyed making them squirm around dealing with those pesky humans who were in their way, particularly with 2 servitors of Judgement harping about the importance of not disturbing the Symphony! Joe >Think of it this way -- about 10 years ago, there were 54,000 students >at UTx, and another 11,000 faculty/staff. That's ON CAMPUS ALONE. You >just need to emphasize that the celestials in Austin all tend to know >each other, and hang out together (to keep an eye on what the Other >Side is doing, thanks to the Truce, a lot of them...) frequently, instead >of running off and dealing only with humans all the time. > >Have you looked at the GMG and its "proportion of celestials to humans" >section? It might give you some ideas for what's reasonable. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 14:39:59 -0500 From: Joe Reimers Subject: IN> Today is Name-Your-Car Day According to my girlfriend, today (October 2) is Name Your Car Day. I think I'm going to name mine Haagenti (while grumbling about gas prices.) Joe ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 14:43:56 -0500 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> Espira, Djinn of Corruption, Demon of Redemption - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW)" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 2:30 PM Subject: RE: IN> Espira, Djinn of Corruption, Demon of Redemption > Yes, because within the context of the game, of course no GM would let a > player reach the level of discord that say, Max in FotM reaches. No, said DM would have Judgement note the Malakite's severely dissonant/discordant status and have him hauled in to explain himself to Dominic. Now that's letting the consequences reflect. Or he could follow the guidelines in the APG about what other Malakim due to members of their choir that make a habit of carrying around lots of dissonance. Start a new character. Your line of reasoning is faulty, in that the consequences of a player's actions *always* reflect upon them. If they do dumb s**t repeatedly, then their characters get imprisoned, hurt, or dead. And the only way for a Malakite to rack up that much dissonance is to do dumb s**t repeatedly. (Tragic situations where one is dissonant if one does and dissonant if one doesn't have a classic solution -- report it up the chain of command and let your Superior sort it out. If you can't or won't confess to him how you got into that mess, well, that's your choice. That's also dumb s**t.) And if you're Outcast and have no Superior, then you *are* going to end up that Discord-ridden eventually, unless you play smart. Your reasoning would only apply if the DM was making a basic failure of DM technique -- i.e., not whacking the players when their character's unwise actions lead them into situations ripe for such whacking. - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 03:57:49 +0800 From: "Jeffery Watkins" Subject: Re: IN> Free Will, Malakim, and One Lone Demon She Fell from trying to do something selfless... I know its ironic for me to be the one to speak on this, but I thought the in canon point was angels are selfless and demons are selfish. So if its a selfless act, while generating dissodance, it doesn't seem like it should make one fall. Thats how angels can end up doing things that are not nice while demons can end up doing things that are wonderful. Its the reason behind it not the act itself. Just a thought. Jeff *heading back to the non-canon-ites faction* - -- __________________________________________________________ Download the FREE Opera browser at www.opera.com/download/ Free OperaMail at http://www.operamail.com/ Powered by Outblaze ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 14:00:50 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Espira, Djinn of Corruption, Demon of Redemption Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW) wrote: >Yes, because within the context of the game, of course no GM would let a >player reach the level of discord that say, Max in FotM reaches. So if the >consequences of the Malakim's actions never reflect upon them, then they >have no free will. > The consequences of a Malakite's actions reflect upon them just as the consequences of anyone else's actions reflect upon them. What you are arguing is that the ONLY thing that grants angels free will is the fact that they are capable of turning into demons if they "sin" too much. This is a rather narrow definition of free will, albeit I have heard certain flavors of Christians make similar arguments with regard to humans (i.e., "If God doesn't exist, then it is impossible to be moral and humans cannot choose good or evil"). I disagree with this position, naturally. >Picking up dissonance and discord means that the chance they might fall >exists. > No, it means they can pick up dissonance and Discord. >All of those are consequences due to the fact that a Malakim can fall. > > Malakim can't Fall. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 14:38:20 -0600 From: sirea@softhome.net Subject: Re: IN> Archangel of Fear. > Does anyone have any ideas for nifty attunements the Archangel of Fear > could've granted? Well... there is the Tattered version of Beleth, and I'm going to write up (or someone else, if they wish to) her as the Archangel of Awe, changed from Fear in my INVerse world, if your willing to wait and see a modified version of her. But Tattered is the best and closest source at hand. --- Sirea, Free Cherub, Angel who Wanders, petitioner for the Word of Eternity ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 15:40:48 -0500 From: Joe Reimers Subject: Re: IN> Espira, Djinn of Corruption, Demon of Redemption What is the "official" word on this, really? A) Malakim can Fall, but none have, so far; B) Malakim cannot Fall. Period. C) As far as you know, Malakim cannot Fall. (i.e. no one knows for sure whether it may be possible given the right set of circumstances.) Thus far, I've been operating with C. On a related note, suppose one of my players were playing a Malakite of Khalid, and Khalid were to Fall, taking many of his most loyal servitors with him (non-canonical, but distinctly possible.) Is it a foregone conclusion that his Malakim would choose not to Fall (thus removing the decision from the player's hands) or how would that get handled? (Me being GM and all, if the player wanted to Fall voluntarily as a Malakite of a Fallen superior, I would probably either have him killed in the attempt by Malakim who remain "good" or have him arrested and executed by the Divine Inquisition.) >>All of those are consequences due to the fact that a Malakim can fall. >> >Malakim can't Fall. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 04:49:11 +0800 From: "Janet Anderson" Subject: IN> Another "urban legend" >In Uriel's case, we get the bitter irony that > the one Superior who most epitomizes never being able to > become a demon is the one Archangel who "fell" the hardest, > in the sense of becoming evil. Another List "urban legend," right up there with the Michael-Novalis romance and the non-evil Lilim, is the concept that Uriel was evil, about to Fall, insane, etc. I may be mistaken, but I think all it ever said in canon was that 1) many angels and Archangels disagreed, and still disagree, with what he did and 2) when the debate in Heaven was really heating up, God intervened and took Uriel to the Higher Heavens. I furthermore think that it's highly unlikely that God would take an evil being into the Higher Heavens. Janet Anderson - -- _______________________________________________ Get your free email from http://www.graffiti.net Powered by Outblaze ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 15:03:40 -0600 From: sirea@softhome.net Subject: Re: IN> Another =?iso-8859-1?Q?=22urban=20legend=22?= Janet Anderson writes: >>In Uriel's case, we get the bitter irony that >> the one Superior who most epitomizes never being able to >> become a demon is the one Archangel who "fell" the hardest, >> in the sense of becoming evil. > > Another List "urban legend," right up there with the Michael-Novalis romance and the non-evil Lilim, is the concept that Uriel was evil, about to Fall, insane, etc. > > I may be mistaken, but I think all it ever said in canon was that 1) many angels and Archangels disagreed, and still disagree, with what he did and 2) when the debate in Heaven was really heating up, God intervened and took Uriel to the Higher Heavens. > > I furthermore think that it's highly unlikely that God would take an evil being into the Higher Heavens. > I personally follow David's Uriel writeup (which is as canon as can be for the time being) in which he was good, but he focused so much on his Word that it began to consume him, to the point that -anything- that wasn't divine needed to be killed. Now, this isn't canon by any means. But I do agree that he was acting "evil" in the sense that he let his Word take him over, thus taking the Purity Crusade a tad bit far. --- Sirea, Free Cherub, Angel who Wanders, petitioner for the Word of Eternity ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 17:21:13 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: IN> Comes the Night, Comes the Terrible Dawn (Author's note. God help me, I'm clearly going to Hell. Which is apropos for this mailing list. Anyway, I enjoyed Josh's piece, so this shouldn't be taken as anything other than what it is.) The Event was beautiful. More than that, it was a culmination. So many came together upon that moment. So many joined their eternal rivals as the ultimate rivals came to stand as one. It was a shining moment, which would forever persist in the memory of those who watched it, and the dreams of those who heard of it. Peace and War came together. The Lion had laid down with the Lamb. In Heaven, time is a fluid thing, so who can say how long they had been in opposition. At last, they were not. And of all those who watched, only one was unable to shake his sense of foreboding. Only one couldn't simply accept the joy of that moment. He knew that joy was True -- after all, his was the Word of Revelation. But he couldn't shake this nagging *feeling* that there was something he was missing. Afterward, of course, he figured it out. The pieces of the puzzle were all before him, so it wasn't even hard. Had he turned his true prowess to cleaving Truth from mystery towards it, he would have realized it so much faster. But as with so many others, he had set aside his burning obsession with Truth for one day, and tried to appreciate the ceremony for what it *was.* Litheroy would never forgive himself this one, tragic indulgence. He would never accept that the Wedding of Novalis and Michael was as inevitable as the Fall of Lucifer himself. He would never release himself from that most terrible of prisons -- the prison of second guessing. For you see, he had seen the key to the puzzle before the nuptials, but had not asked the question that had leapt to his thoughts. When Dominic found Litheroy, in the remains of his Abbey, he overheard Litheroy's whisper. "Why didn't I ask... why didn't I seek? Why didn't I reveal?" "Ask what?" Dominic asked, quietly. On this day, Dominic took no joy, but neither was his judgment harsh. Litheroy turned his eyes to his closest friend. "Why was Yves so reluctant to perform the ceremony?" Dominic paused, and closed his own eyes, and understood his friend's pain. *** It had been a beautiful reception. Many old jokes were told (though Cordiel, Cherub of War and Angel of Holding the Bridge didn't understand why they kept pointing at David and making comments about potholders) and many old wounds were healed (though Chamiel, Cherub of Flowers and Angel of Nursing the Seed didn't know why the Gabrielites kept following Judgment Servitors and saying 'here kitty kitty kitty kitty kitty'). Still, the two Cherubim were content. They had been good natured rivals for centuries, perhaps accentuated because both appeared as winged Lions in Heaven, Cordiel a rich furred huntress, Chamiel a regal black maned male. On this day, Flowers and War were hardly rivals, though. And the two Lion Cherubim had been selected for a most honored duty. The Bower stood between the Groves and the Gardens. This would be the place that did not belong to War or Flowers, but to both. It had but one way in, the trees thick to keep all others out. It was perfectly defensible. It was radiantly natural. In so many ways, it suited both its occupants perfectly. Michael and Novalis had entered together, arm in arm, wearing silk robes -- their formal attire had been shed for the reception, their party clothes shed for their private celebration to come. Michael leaned close to the Cherubim as he entered, and grinned. "So much as one Windie with a camera gets by, and we're going to have words, Cord," he joked. Novalis merely looked radiantly happy. No one got past the Cherubim. No one had to. They, of course, faced outward. Their divine love would never permit them to be anything less than discreet. Besides, all of Heaven knew this was more than an assignation -- more than even a symbol. No matter what intimacy the pair might have shared before now, this would be the truest moment of their unity. The moment their first child would be created. The night -- the *true* night -- came at the stroke of Midnight, when uncounted Demons received their Essence far away from Heaven. Neither Cherub could possibly have reacted to the screams in time. Neither could possibly have entered the copse of trees before the skies had turned black and thunder had fallen in its wake. Neither could have possibly assisted their beloved Masters before the deed was done. Still, self-recrimination is the worst kind. The pair might even have Fallen, if they had survived. The trees were falling away like cordwood as they wheeled around. Within the remains of the Bower, the broken celestial forms of Novalis and Michael, their anthropomorphic representations shattered along with their forces, lay motionless. And towards them walked a truly gigantic man, nude but not unadorned, his perfect skin black and tempered, his bald scalp gleaming with the fires around him. In his right hand, he held an axe every War servitor revered. Around his body, almost in mockery of a Malakite's chains, an ivy strand encircled him. He smiled with a face that gleamed, new as the world, and his eyes burned with hatred, old as Heaven itself. "What *is* that," whispered Chamiel, who had not yet been made when those like the newcomer had been cast out. "A Grigori," Cordiel snarled, and leapt, followed less than a second later by the black maned lion. "Do you hear the people sing," the Grigori murmured gently, swinging his axe smoothly and slicing Cordiel apart, the Cherub's destruction being accompanied by her very Forces being consumed into the Grigori... "singing the song of angry men..." he turned, swinging back and destroying the Master Wordbound who remained, as casually, adding the Forces of that ancient Cherub to his own. "It is the music of a people... who will not be slaves again...." There was a reaction, of course. One couldn't cause *that* much pain and devastation so close to the Groves and not have War, Stone and the Sword on you like a pack of wolves. And if there was an angel in Heaven who hadn't heard the horrible scream of Michael and Novalis, they were deaf indeed. The Grigori, already bristling with Forces taken from the Scion of Peace and the Champion of Heaven alike, smiled a cold smile as the Host swept towards him. "When the beating of your heart... echoes the beating of the drums... there is a life about to start when tomorrow comes." Not all who stood before the Grigori were destroyed, but it was a near thing. And those who fell added to the terrible strength of the Grigori. When the darkness lifted, and the terrible dawn came, two things were known. The Grigori was named Gog... and his terrible Word was Unity. *** "How could this happen?" Zadkiel demanded in the Seraphim Council. "*How?*" "I don't understand," Marc said, for what seemed the thousandth time. "It was the perfect trade. Each took six Forces -- two of Corporeal, two of Ethereal and two of Celestial apiece -- from themselves and combined them together into a single Angel. How..." "The process was relatively simple," Jean said, as dispassionate as always. "They did indeed create a twelve Force angel. However, they had consulted with me as to whether or not such an Angel would need to be made within a Choir, or allowed to fledge. As I said to them, it is perfectly possible to create a twelve Force reliever, who would fledge themselves almost immediately. Nothing in the data suggested that it would fledge into a Watcher." "Don't talk about the *process,*" Laurence snapped. He had dominated the meeting -- in some ways taking the leadership role he had always been uncomfortable with before. "We could spend all night on it. 'Where did Gog get his Word?' 'How did Gog become a Superior?' 'Why did Gog attack his parents?' 'How did Michael fall so quickly?' 'Why didn't Novalis's aura of peace not stop Gog?' We don't know. We can't know and it doesn't *matter.*" He turned to David. "How is their condition?" "If we need proof that the Lord still remains with us," the Malakite rumbled, "it is that neither have died. Gog's worst power seems to be his ability to draw the Forces he costs another into himself, and he had a veritable feast from his parents. Both lie nearly destroyed. Were their Words not so powerful, they would have been. As it is, they each have but one Celestial Force and one Ethereal Force remaining." "Which brings us to a chilling truth," Dominic said. "Within the Ethereal Forces of Michael and Novalis are tremendous resources and knowledge. Can any of us say we know the extent of Michael's organization on the Corporeal Plane? Can any of us say we know the secrets Novalis has learned from the very web of life on Earth itself? We have to assume Gog has those pieces. We have to assume Gog knows." "Gog," David spat. "Why *Gog.* That was the name Magog had for me. The name he claimed I would assume in the end times. Why would the child of Michael and Novalis take it for their own?" "Because Magog forsaw the ultimate cruelty -- the cruelty of a child destroying his parents -- and knew it involved what looked like a black, nude man in chains of some sort." The room hushed, and Yves walked in, lighting a cigarette. Yves was ageless, but looked so much older than he had before. Given to quiet amusement, he now seemed direct... and very serious. "Yves... what is going on," Blandine asked, finally. "The Wolves have laid down with the Lambs, and the Kids have laid down with the Leopards," Yves said, taking a long drag. "War and Flowers have come together. And they have created Unity, and Unity has left Heaven to claim Earth for his own. And we will not find him until he is ready to be found." He looked around the room. "When the Watchers fall and become the Skulkers, they do not change like another fallen Angel would. Instead, they keep their extremely sensitive resonance. However, they are adept at using it to conceal themselves so completely that even a Demon Prince among Skulkers could remain hidden away." He took one last drag, and flicked the butt away. "It's interesting. There has always been an assumption that Lilim and Malakim counterpoint one another. But they don't. Malakim don't Fall at all, and a redeemed Lilim remains a Lilim, only Bright. No, the only Choir of Angel that remains the same when Falling is a Watcher. Where a Lilim sees Needs to chain, a Watcher feels disturbance to be righted. And both came after the Rebellion was put down." "You knew this would happen," Zadkiel hissed. "You *knew,* and you didn't stop it!" "That is true," Yves said, rising again. "Because the Destiny of the World, and of Humanity, is more important than the Fate of Michael and Novalis. Now, we must prepare." - -- Eric A. Burns Freelance Writer and Textual Whore http://www.annotations.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 14:21:51 -0700 From: Kish Subject: Re: IN> Another "urban legend" Janet Anderson wrote: > > >In Uriel's case, we get the bitter irony that > > the one Superior who most epitomizes never being able to > > become a demon is the one Archangel who "fell" the hardest, > > in the sense of becoming evil. > > Another List "urban legend," right up there with the Michael-Novalis romance and the non-evil Lilim, is the >concept that Uriel was evil, about to Fall, insane, etc. I wouldn't put it that high. Uriel's true nature is unknown. The true nature of the Michael/Novalis relationship is known: it's mutual hostility. The true nature of the Lilim is known: they're demons. > > I may be mistaken, but I think all it ever said in canon was that 1) many angels and Archangels disagreed, > and still disagree, with what he did and 2) when the debate in Heaven was really heating up, God intervened > and took Uriel to the Higher Heavens. And what he did, which is enough for a number of people (me mostly among them, albeit with reservations) to conclude Uriel was evil whether the books ever come out and say "he's evil" or not (which they don't). > > I furthermore think that it's highly unlikely that God would take an evil being into the Higher Heavens. Depends on whether he ate Uriel once there, or just took him away and disintegrated him before he ever reached the Higher Heavens, no? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 17:35:50 -0400 From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> Today is Name-Your-Car Day At 02:39 PM 10/2/2002 -0500, you wrote: >According to my girlfriend, today (October 2) is Name Your Car Day. I >think I'm going to name mine Haagenti (while grumbling about gas prices.) But my car *has* a name. Isn't this discriminatory against the proactive? ;D Hmm... ObIN... Blue Behemoth Relic/2, +2 Essence capacity The Blue Behemoth is a Volvo station wagon, a 1983 245DL that, naturally, is a faded blue in color and has obviously seen better days. It's not *quite* unbreakable - otherwise the mud flaps wouldn't be falling off - but it is a rather special car. It skips, you see. Not like children skip, or records, but like a stone. Every so often, when its driver isn't paying attention to the road, it jumps ahead a few feet, using its innate Celestial Song of Motion - not enough to be truly noticeable in the short run, but enough to make the driver say "How'd I get here so fast?" when he finally does arrive. On the other hand, it's also twenty years old, and currently in the hands of a mortal data analyst from Maryland who a) is unaware of the War, and b) has no potential for six Forces. Servitors of just about anybody could get great use out of this car - especially Windies - but how to get it away from him...? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 17:33:21 -0400 From: "Josh Moger" Subject: Re: IN> Comes the Night, Comes the Terrible Dawn He >knew that joy was True -- after all, his was the Word of Revelation. I KNEW IT! I knew my not including Litheroy was a bad omen. Oh, well, back to reading and foreboding... Josh ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 16:25:01 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Espira, Djinn of Corruption, Demon of Redemption At 4:31 PM -0400 9/30/02, Josh Moger wrote: >Well, I don't suppose there could be a Dead Superiors book? Eventually? Who knows. Soon? Only if the other Superiors books fly off the shelves fast enough that something has to be put up to replace it ASAP... - --Beth, arcangel@io.com / archangel@sjgames.com In Nomine Line Editor http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 17:39:21 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Comes the Night, Comes the Terrible Dawn On Wednesday, October 2, 2002, at 05:33 PM, Josh Moger wrote: > He >> knew that joy was True -- after all, his was the Word of Revelation. > > I KNEW IT! > > I knew my not including Litheroy was a bad omen. > Oh, well, back to reading and foreboding... > Bad omen? Nuh-uh. Just remember. Alaemon is a *Hell* of a lot more subtle than you think. Or I think. Or anyone thinks. He got you, this time. (Cheerfully waiting being put to death... not by Moe, though. Moe will want to see the next chapter.) - -- Eric A. Burns Freelance Writer and Textual Whore http://www.annotations.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 16:52:10 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Chickstuff (Re: Espira) NOTE CHANGED SUBJECT (Really, people, it's not hard to change the subject when the topic drifts, is it?) At 5:46 AM -0700 10/1/02, Michael Walton wrote: >--- David Edelstein wrote: >> As for him spelling trouble for the line -- the fruitcake >> fundie fringe is never going to buy IN books anyway. > > For which I am grateful. While I would probably have opted for the more conservative course, this is likely true enough. Maybe he'll buy a copy to see what the fuss is about. If he does anything with it, though, I'll want to see the link... - --Beth, arcangel@io.com / archangel@sjgames.com In Nomine Line Editor http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 16:55:55 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Espira, Djinn of Corruption, Demon of Redemption At 8:03 AM -0600 10/1/02, sirea@softhome.net wrote: [...] >> Or Genubath. > >Well, I loved David's Shedite writeup version, but was dissapointed when I >saw that GURPS IN listed him as a Calabite, which I assume is now canon. And >after I made my Kyriotate Genubath too :/ IIRC, I asked SJ on that one and SJ said Calabite. (The original Genubath -- well, the IN one -- was a Djinn of Theft. SJ asked me for a name for Rapine. I plucked that one out. Had to rename the Djinn... Still, I always think of Genny as a Djinn first, and Something Else after. So who knows.) - --Beth, arcangel@io.com / archangel@sjgames.com In Nomine Line Editor http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 17:05:43 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Paradoxes At 6:28 PM -0700 10/1/02, Jennifer Shih wrote: >How do Seraphs deal with staements of that are neither >true nor false? (In terms of both dissonance and >resonance.) If it's an innately contradictory statement, newbie Seraphim stare at it, resonate it if they can, and complain about the headache. Older ones know it's a "phrase that has no meaning in angelic," and trot out their old, well-worn gripes about how corporeal languages suck. (Few Seraphim managed to be sufficiently pedantic as to never be caught in an ambigious or misleading statement which they hurriedly correct lest someone think they said something they did not mean.) What the resonance perceives is that the statement is one which has no truth or falsity, any more than a statement of "Egg blue green quartz happy fun ball" has truth or falsity. It is babbling, content-free, from the Symphonic Truth point of view. Or so I would rule. (Note that "All Cretans Are Liars" is False unless they all are. A better paradox for giving Seraphim headaches is: The next statement is false. The previous statement is true. ) >Would a Seraph get dissonance for speaking a Not Not >Truth? If it is a statement which _CANNOT_ be true in its entirety, then yes, the Seraph would be dissonant if it attempted to claim such a statement were a truth. If the Seraph were merely quoting, however, and made that plain, then the Seraph could do so. - --Beth, arcangel@io.com / archangel@sjgames.com In Nomine Line Editor http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 17:16:36 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Worlds One and Two (RE: The Event) At 12:03 AM -0600 10/2/02, Julian Mensch wrote: >[...] Malakim are romantic cheesecake fantasies [...] Beefcake. Not cheesecake (well, some of the female ones, okay). Beefcake. O;> >Much of Moetica, Beth's SSO and general list-filk >seems to draw on world two, Hm. I'd suggest that I'm more in world 1.85 or so -- I write the fluffy, funny bits, but there are still some very nasty bits in the universe. Might even be 1.75... (E.g., at one point, one of the new, non-canonical characters with Kewl Unknown Powerz... disguises herself as a mere Discordant Word-bound instead of the Archangel she's become, and goes to Hades. There are some nasty moral choices, brain-****ing, and general stuff that rather hammered home the point of why one does NOT pretend to be a wee angel just so one can sucker a Prince into getting close enough to backstab. It's going to be tough to write up.) - --Beth, arcangel@io.com / archangel@sjgames.com In Nomine Line Editor http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 17:22:15 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Re: Servitor of Eli At 6:32 PM +0930 10/2/02, G N E Z D A wrote: >He is a character I plan on using in the rpg myself and, no the GM (myself >and another player joint-GM the adventures) isn't running a particularly >high-powered campaign. In fact the majority of the characters are either >Saints or that equivelant in power (with one other celestial).[...] >nine-force Ofanim of Eli. (Ofanite. O:> Ofanim is plural.) >As far as role-playing goes, he will come across to most who don't know of >his past as being a fairly friendly, slightly dim-witted mutt-looking >creature who has a real knack for building things, seems to disappear >mysteriously and re-appear when he's needed. [...] Just as a note, depending on the play-style, this could be a real troublesome character to integrate with the group. (If you've got ways to handle it, then that's okay.) Enigmatic Loners make good fiction characters, and decent NPCs, but they can be a bit iffy as PCs if the wrong personality traits are played up. - --Beth, arcangel@io.com / archangel@sjgames.com In Nomine Line Editor http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2795 ********************************