in_nomine-digest Friday, October 4 2002 Volume 01 : Number 2800 In this digest: Re: IN> The Event Re: IN> Uriel was wrong? Re: IN> Hey, the Dawn is usually terrible BECAUSE of the Night Before... Re: IN> Hey, the Dawn is usually terrible BECAUSE of the Night Before... Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #2795 Re: IN> Hey, the Dawn is usually terrible BECAUSE of the Night Before... IN> Hey, the Dawn is usually terrible BECAUSE of the Night Before... Re: IN> Where the Darkness Knows No Dawn Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #2795 Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #2795 Re: IN> Hey, the Dawn is usually terrible BECAUSE of the Night Before... Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #2795 Re: IN> Uriel was wrong? Re: IN> Where the Darkness Knows No Dawn IN> Well, since we're throwing out Attunements... Re: IN> New Media Attunement Re: IN> Where the Darkness Knows No Dawn Re: IN> Well, since we're throwing out Attunements... Re: IN> Where the Darkness Knows No Dawn Re: IN> Where the Darkness Knows No Dawn Re: IN> Where the Darkness Knows No Dawn Re: IN> Where the Darkness Knows No Dawn Re: IN> The Event Re: IN> Where the Darkness Knows No Dawn Re: IN> Where the Darkness Knows No Dawn Re: IN> Where the Darkness Knows No Dawn Re: IN> Where the Darkness Knows No Dawn Re: IN> Where the Darkness Knows No Dawn Re: IN> Where the Darkness Knows No Dawn Re: IN> Where the Darkness Knows No Dawn Re: IN> The Event Re: IN> Where the Darkness Knows No Dawn IN> Watch out! Falling Malakim ahead... Re: IN> Where the Darkness Knows No Dawn Re: IN> Where the Darkness Knows No Dawn RE: IN> New Media Attunement RE: IN> Where the Darkness Knows No Dawn ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 22:54:53 +0000 From: Nigel Cole Subject: Re: IN> The Event On Thursday 03 October 2002 15:30, sirea@softhome.net wrote: > Personally, I really don't have much of a fascination with Lilim > either. They're just sultry temptresses in leather, another common > demonic theme. The fun thing to do with Lilim is to get away from that stereotype (not that it isn't fun :-). I ran one that was a lifeguard - people who are drowning tend to have a pretty major Need... I think one of the uses of Lilim, especially Free Lilim, is to make IN morality more complex, by having a demon helping humans for selfish reasons. While demons from most other Bands can also do this (well, Shedim might have a problem :-), their resonances or dissonance conditions generally cause direct harm: Balseraphs lie, Calabim destroy, Shedim corrupt, Habbalah torment, and Impudites drain. Lilim and Djinn are the only Bands who are geared towards selfishness without directly hurting someone else. - -- Nigel Cole zebekia@zebekia.co.uk Dreamlyrics: Zebekia ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 23:00:03 +0000 From: glasgowc1@attbi.com Subject: Re: IN> Uriel was wrong? > Because it was Blandine, not Uriel, who was the > acknowledged expert on the Marches. Uriel had no > idea what effect indiscriminately slaughtering Dream > Elements would have on Human dreamers, but he did it > anyway without consulting the AA of Dreams. His > actions may not have been Dissonant from the > perspective of his Choir and Word, but they were > definitely unwise. Which is one more piece of > evidence to put in the "Superiors are not > infallible" file. Likewise, Sup1 makes it canonical that Michael, Archangel of War, thought Uriel's actions to be unwise as well -- from his POV, because it removed actual and possible allies from Heaven's side and drove a lot of neutrals over to Hell's side. (Beleth must have practically died of whatever twisted negative emotion she substitutes for ecstatic glee when all the Ethereals started flocking around her tower begging for sanctuary.) Not only did Uriel not consult Blandine as to what the effect upon Human dreamers would be, but he didn't consult Michael as to what the effect upon the War would be. Granted, since Uriel was Commander of the Host at the time, it was his rightful prerogative to make the decision without consulting anyone. It just wasn't all that wise. - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 19:08:51 -0400 From: "Eric Bertish" Subject: Re: IN> Hey, the Dawn is usually terrible BECAUSE of the Night Before... > >Moe, that was classic. Laurentine porn? Ay... > > The disturbing thing is that he *has* some. No, the disturbing thing is that his *girlfriend* got it for him. - -- Casca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 23:29:27 +0000 From: glasgowc1@attbi.com Subject: Re: IN> Hey, the Dawn is usually terrible BECAUSE of the Night Before... > No, the disturbing thing is that his *girlfriend* got it for him. > > -- Casca TMI! TMI! - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 19:12:13 -0400 From: "Eric Bertish" Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #2795 > Personally, I like a gray world (as opposed to bright or dark), but there don't seem to be many on the list who agree with that. I came to IN through the WoD, thinking it might make a good angel/demon supplement. Then I hacked the thing apart and adapted it to WoD mechanics, because I can't stand the IN engine. So while I don't run a gray world, the tone is very heavy. Lots of end-times stuff. - -- Casca "Undead, like the senior citizens of the more traditional democracies, represent a disproportionate segment of the electorate. However, their political leanings are quite different, as the short term is essentially meaningless to one who expects to live for over 1,000 years." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 17:41:37 -0600 From: sirea@softhome.net Subject: Re: IN> Hey, the Dawn is usually terrible BECAUSE of the Night Before... glasgowc1@attbi.com writes: >> No, the disturbing thing is that his *girlfriend* got > it for him. *laughs* ^_^ >> >> -- Casca > > TMI! TMI! Hmm... Persenal, Seraph of Revelatons, Angel of TMI? > > -- > Chuckg --- Sirea, Free Cherub, Angel who Wanders, petitioner for the Word of Eternity ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 20:38:32 -0400 From: BC Petery Subject: IN> Hey, the Dawn is usually terrible BECAUSE of the Night Before... > Inspiration (Creation) I like that. It doesn't actually _help_ in the production of the piece, it just makes the subject try. I wonder how this would work against Absintha James, Demon of Writer's Block, Djinn Captain of the Media (FotM p45). Hmm, I wonder... Yep. The interaction between this and the Cherubim of Creation Attunement can make them into very good demon hunters. =-=-=-=-=-=-= > Desperation (Nightmares) Reminds me of a story... Stop groaning, it's short. It was during the Renaissance, I believe. There was a statue of a woman, carved out of wood. Said to be very beautiful. _Said_ to be. It seems the city elders had it burned because three young men had committed suicide after falling in love with the thing. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 18:31:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Where the Darkness Knows No Dawn - --- Whistling in the Dark wrote: > Valefor nodded and withdrew. Leaving Kobal. > > Who smiled. Oh, yesssssss... =====

Michael Walton, #US2002023848

"If you succeed, you will make some false friends and some true enemies. Succeed anyway." - -- Bishop David M. Copeland

__________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 18:34:08 -0700 From: Kish Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #2795 Rampaging Crypto-Man wrote: > > > >A) all Ethereals are really cute and fluffy > > >B) the apparent assumption that Malakim start out around 15 Forces > > > > Wow. I must be reading a different list, because I can't remember running > > into either of these. > > > > -EDG > > I've seen variations of #1 on the list. The conventional wisdom seems to be > that Ethereals were harmless good guys who were unfairly butchered by Uriel. I think it's more like, "Ethereals were unfairly butchered by Uriel, full stop." Among those who believe Uriel was actually wrong, which may not even be a majority and certainly isn't the whole list. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 18:35:52 -0700 From: Kish Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #2795 Janet Anderson wrote: > > Other listserv sacred cows are: > > A) all Ethereals are really cute and fluffy > > This one is connected like a Siamese twin to the "Uriel was evil" theory. It's entirely possible for Uriel to have been evil even though the Ethereals aren't cute and fluffy. In fact, I'll go further. It's entirely possible Uriel was evil. It's not canonically possible that all Ethereals are/were cute and fluffy. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 18:40:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Hey, the Dawn is usually terrible BECAUSE of the Night Before... - --- sirea@softhome.net wrote: > Hmm... Persenal, Seraph of Revelatons, Angel of TMI? Nah. It's a Media thing; station WTMI, Clear Channel! "Oversharing at the speed of light!" =====

Michael Walton, #US2002023848

"If you succeed, you will make some false friends and some true enemies. Succeed anyway." - -- Bishop David M. Copeland

__________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 20:41:07 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #2795 From: > > I'm hoping that the EPG will have Ethereals of all stripes. *Enigmatic smile* ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 20:46:57 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Uriel was wrong? From: "Rampaging Crypto-Man" > > Why was Uriel wrong to persecute all of them? 1. Human dreamscapes were damaged, with innocent mortals being driven into Beleth's side of the Marches. 2. Ethereals that might otherwise have supported Heaven's cause allied themselves with Hell. 3. It caused discord among the archangels, and if God had not intervened and drawn Uriel up to the Higher Heavens, could have started a second war in Heaven. Had this happened, it would have aided Hell immensely. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 21:50:36 -0400 From: "Josh Moger" Subject: Re: IN> Where the Darkness Knows No Dawn >--- Whistling in the Dark wrote: >> Valefor nodded and withdrew. Leaving Kobal. >> >> Who smiled. ::lip quivering:: ::rocking back and forth in his chair, curled up in a fetal position:: I only wanted to make things happy I only wanted to make things happy I only wanted to make things happy I only wanted to make things happy I only wanted to make things happy I only wanted to make things happy I only wanted to make things happy... Josh (I knew there was a member of the list IST Nightmares) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 18:56:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: IN> Well, since we're throwing out Attunements... - --- BC Petery wrote: > There was a statue of a woman, > carved out of wood. Said to be very beautiful. > > _Said_ to be. It seems the city elders had it burned > because three young men > had committed suicide after falling in love with the > thing. Oh, that. That's another Attunement at work... Pygmalion's Plight (Lust) Andrealphus normally doesn't approve of love, except for the unrequited kind. A demon with this Attunement can inspire that sort of love and guarantee that the subject thereof won't return it; the Attunement causes the target to romantically obsess over an inanimate object. The demon must make a Will roll, and the target gets a Will roll to resist (Celestials and Ethereals add their Celestial Forces). If the target fails to resist he becomes hopelessly infatuated with an object of the demon's choosing. This lasts for a number of hours equal to the CD of the demon's successful Will roll. If the object of obsession is sufficiently anthropomorphic (i.e. a statue) the time is in days instead. =====

Michael Walton, #US2002023848

"If you succeed, you will make some false friends and some true enemies. Succeed anyway." - -- Bishop David M. Copeland

__________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 20:56:22 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> New Media Attunement From: "Nigel Cole" > > I've also heard a clipboard described as a "universal passport", for > much the same reason. It can be, yes. I worked at a defense contractor once, and as long as I was looking at my clipboard with a serious expression, nobody would bother me. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2002 02:18:14 +0000 From: glasgowc1@attbi.com Subject: Re: IN> Where the Darkness Knows No Dawn > I only wanted to make things happy I only wanted to make things happy I only > wanted to make things happy I only wanted to make things happy I only wanted > to make things happy I only wanted to make things happy I only wanted to > make things happy... > > Josh Tell me about it. *sigh* The wedding of Michael and Novalis. I should've been applauding, right? (Well, actually, a Hotmail burp got me put on digest, and then I switched over to my other e-mail address re: s u b s c r i b i n g, and the original e-mail of this story fell into the gap and was never received at this address, but I could figure out what's been going on.) Guys: not to cast apersions on the quality of the writing, which has been superb, or upon your right to pick whatever story direction you want, which is unquestioned, I just want to add one personal opinion: The meme that War and Peace could not reconcile without Fate *immediately* punishing them and all the innocents of the world along with them for it horribly is *very* depressing to me. It's like saying that the lion can never lie down with the lamb. But unless you're playing with the Darkness knob cranked up to the peg stop (1), the lion is *supposed* to lie down with the lamb eventually... that's what having a Heaven is /for/, innit? - -- Chuckg (1) Which is what I'm saying here, really -- "I find high-Darkness IN to be extremely depressing and it makes me feel very 'down', even while I can simultaneously admire the artistry with which parts of it have been written." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 22:28:05 -0400 From: "William J. Keith" Subject: Re: IN> Well, since we're throwing out Attunements... >Pygmalion's Plight (Lust) >===== >

Michael Walton, #US2002023848

And if the demon gets a Divine Intervention on his Will roll, just maybe.... ;^) William ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 22:33:42 -0400 From: "Josh Moger" Subject: Re: IN> Where the Darkness Knows No Dawn > >Guys: not to cast apersions on the quality of the >writing, which has been superb, or upon your right to >pick whatever story direction you want, which is >unquestioned, I just want to add one personal opinion: > >The meme that War and Peace could not reconcile without >Fate *immediately* punishing them and all the innocents >of the world along with them for it horribly is *very* >depressing to me. It's like saying that the lion can >never lie down with the lamb. Oh, I hope I didn't cause that with my response to the second installment of the Gog story. I'm really enjoying it. I admit that it's kinda disturbing to see how easily what I thought was a Bright seed or milestone for Heaven got twisted so horribly, but it's also very very interesting to see how far they're taking it. And yeah, I figure that we've got this may be taking place in Earth #4- Dark In Nomine- Whether it's a Symphony Tattered by Lucifer winning, by Novalis getting black wings, or most the Superiors dying to make way for Saminga to claim the Granite Throne (Oh, Redneck Gaijan, where have ye been?), it's sure to take place on this 'oh-so-cheery' world. Where the motto is: We don't know which side's winning, but it sure isn't the humans. Or some such pithy thing. Josh ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 22:40:20 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Where the Darkness Knows No Dawn On Thursday, October 3, 2002, at 10:18 PM, glasgowc1@attbi.com wrote: > The meme that War and Peace could not reconcile without > Fate *immediately* punishing them and all the innocents > of the world along with them for it horribly is *very* > depressing to me. It's like saying that the lion can > never lie down with the lamb. > What, you're taking what Kronos says as Gospel? Come on.... Seriously, I took what Josh tossed off as a one liner -- Yves's reluctance to perform the ceremony -- and was inspired a bit, into building up a game setting (which is what these posts are leading to). I don't think by *any* means this is inevitable from a marriage between Michael and Novalis. It was just One Direction That Could Be Taken. It was equally inspired by Josh's own original post, which was really sweet and good and which I liked a lot, and the debate that followed about the 'two In Nomine Worlds,' where one was Bright and Fluffy and the other was... well, Hardcore. My brain immediately slammed the two together, and came out with what I've been writing. It won't go on much longer -- once I have the 'setting' established, I'll toss out adventure seeds, mechanics and writeups where needed, and sink back into the oblivion you've come to expect from me. (And, if people are truly unhappy/depressed about this stuff to date, I'll stop immediately. I'm not doing this to bug people or bum them out.) > But unless you're playing with the Darkness knob > cranked up to the peg stop (1), the lion is *supposed* > to lie down with the lamb eventually... that's what > having a Heaven is /for/, innit? > Well, yeah. Unquestionably. Hm. Maybe this is the best way I can put "Terrible Dawn" into perspective, understanding I no more think this is inevitable than I think my automobile can fly. One day, War and Peace *will* be reconciled. They have to be. The marriage of Novalis and Michael is a wonderful symbol of that. Only, in this piece, they married while the war with Hell was still going on. Sometimes, these things are a matter of timing. (Finally, it *is* worth noting that the Wolves lying down with the lambs and the Kids (Goats) lying down with the Lions bit is out of Isiah, and is about the Jewish Messiah coming to lay holy waste to the enemies of the Jews and retake Jerusalem by the sword. The Lion and the Lamb don't actually lie down together anywhere in the bible. But that's neither here nor there.) > -- > Chuckg > > (1) Which is what I'm saying here, really -- "I find > high-Darkness IN to be extremely depressing and it > makes me feel very 'down', even while I can > simultaneously admire the artistry with which parts of > it have been written." I honestly, seriously don't want to depress you with all of this. And bear in mind, it all comes back to me with this stuff. Moe's stuff has been light, and Josh's stuff was very light and affirming. So blame me for it, and I'm sorry. - -- Eric A. Burns Freelance Writer and Textual Whore http://www.annotations.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 22:42:23 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Where the Darkness Knows No Dawn On Thursday, October 3, 2002, at 10:33 PM, Josh Moger wrote: > Dark In Nomine- Whether it's a Symphony Tattered by Lucifer winning, > by > Novalis getting black wings, or most the Superiors dying to make way > for > Saminga to claim the Granite Throne (Oh, Redneck Gaijan, where have ye > been?), it's sure to take place on this 'oh-so-cheery' world. Where > the > motto is: We don't know which side's winning, but it sure isn't the > humans. > Or some such pithy thing. > Heh. Interesting you should put it this way. - -- Eric A. Burns Freelance Writer and Textual Whore http://www.annotations.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 22:58:23 -0400 From: "Josh Moger" Subject: Re: IN> Where the Darkness Knows No Dawn It won't go on much >longer -- once I have the 'setting' established, I'll toss out >adventure seeds, mechanics and writeups where needed, and sink back >into the oblivion you've come to expect from me. > Dinnae dare do such. >(And, if people are truly unhappy/depressed about this stuff to date, >I'll stop immediately. I'm not doing this to bug people or bum them >out.) > After which we'll get a posse of Malakim together ("He's gone back."), hunt down Haagenti, kick him until Mariel comes up, and get her to open Oblivion so that we can fish you out again. In other words, as the original poster of The Event, I've much appreciated everything, positive and negative, posted about the story. And I consider your stuff, which is probably the Darkest contrast of sequels to my story, to be postive, since you were able to write so much off of my post. So blame me >for it, and I'm sorry. Consider yourself blamed with praise. Keep up the good Dark work. Josh ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 22:30:43 -0400 From: "Eric Bertish" Subject: Re: IN> The Event > I dunno, why doy you think that? It wouldn't make much sense to have a Choir Thanks for asking, Sirea. Your fifty bucks is in the mail... Unlike Mssr. Edelstein, my disagreement is somewhere between game balance and theme, rather than internal logic. In Nomine is a game about Angels (who can go bad, and Demons, who can become good. Angels who go bad tend to stop being angels, as they either Fall or, in the case of Malakim, become hopelessly psychotic puddles of Discord who, if not slain by Judgement, are killed by some manner of suicidal tendency. Demons who become good also have short lifespans, as if the Game or their Prince's secret police don't get them, tend to Redeem by one manner or another. Admittedly, it can take years, mayhap even centuries, between these events -- during which time gripping tales of character growth and/or degredation can be told -- but these are pretty much the nadirs and zeniths, respectively, for entities following this particular vector. Except Lilim. The appeal of playing a Bright is obvious: all the fun of a demonic resonance, none of the hassle of integrating an infernal character into a divine campaign (and angel campaigns are, by the far, the most popular). And surprising as it may sound, I don't have a problem with this. If you want to play a former demon who's considered a traitor by the first family she's ever had, is looked at askance(if not actively distrusted) by her new family until she proves herself a hundred times over, is hunted by the Game on general principle, and who doesn't know how Mother will react when she finds she's been cheated of Geasa through the Redemption process ... sure, I'll let you play. You'll be my designated kick-toy for the campaign. But if you think I'm going to *reward* you for this by giving you a unique attunement, you're insane. You already get one of the most useful Resonances in the game: Need Sensing, Geas Laying, and if you can't track through Geas-hooks as part of the package (don't remember right now, my books are packed) then Songs of Attraction/Affiliation/Association/Whatever are easy to learn in character generation. No freaking way. If you want the benefit of playing an angelic Lilim, then you have to pay the price of No Bright Lilim Choir Attunements. I realize that some of you will disagree with me. I suggest that we take such discussions to private mail, as point-by-point arguments look too much like nascent flamewars for the ListAdmin's happiness. > in Heaven not have an attunement. I mean, Minor Choirs get them even, why > not Bright Lilim? So there are Menunite choir attunements for every Archangelic Word? *I* haven't seen them.... - -- Casca "Undead, like the senior citizens of the more traditional democracies, represent a disproportionate segment of the electorate. However, their political leanings are quite different, as the short term is essentially meaningless to one who expects to live for over 1,000 years." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 23:06:15 -0400 From: "Eric Bertish" Subject: Re: IN> Where the Darkness Knows No Dawn > (And, if people are truly unhappy/depressed about this stuff to date, > I'll stop immediately. I'm not doing this to bug people or bum them > out.) Nah, I'm grooving on it. I don't see it as depressing, I see it as Tragic and Epic. But then, I read the Book of Revelations for kicks. I love the visual imagery and the idea of "prophecy as literature", so maybe I'm not the control group you're looking for. - -- Casca "Undead, like the senior citizens of the more traditional democracies, represent a disproportionate segment of the electorate. However, their political leanings are quite different, as the short term is essentially meaningless to one who expects to live for over 1,000 years." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 23:09:16 -0400 From: "S.D." Subject: Re: IN> Where the Darkness Knows No Dawn >(And, if people are truly unhappy/depressed about this stuff to date, >I'll stop immediately. I'm not doing this to bug people or bum them >out.) >I honestly, seriously don't want to depress you with all of this. And >bear in mind, it all comes back to me with this stuff. Moe's stuff has >been light, and Josh's stuff was very light and affirming. So blame me >for it, and I'm sorry. I, for one, hope you continue. It's dark, yes, but it's *very* good. And interesting. I can't wait to see what happens next... If you don't want to post to the ML, though, do you think you could forward later chapters my way? ~S.D. Ryukage ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 22:10:12 -0500 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> Where the Darkness Knows No Dawn - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Whistling in the Dark" To: Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 9:40 PM Subject: Re: IN> Where the Darkness Knows No Dawn > What, you're taking what Kronos says as Gospel? Come on.... Not Kronos. Yves. He pronounced that the wedding, and its aftermath, was their respective Fates. [snip] > I don't think by *any* means this is inevitable from a marriage between > Michael and Novalis. It was just One Direction That Could Be Taken. True. And definitely, it's the One Direction that best leads to a viable /game/ setting -- as with Moe's "Novalis Victory" scenario, there are stories that are wonderful to read but just don't leave much room to game in. [snip] > I honestly, seriously don't want to depress you with all of this. And > bear in mind, it all comes back to me with this stuff. Moe's stuff has > been light, and Josh's stuff was very light and affirming. So blame me > for it, and I'm sorry. Don't be sorry -- as I said, it's just as valid an artistic choice as the other, and it was *extremely* well-written. It's just... well, as the person responsible for starting the entire Michael/Novalis romance meme in the first place (1), way back in the ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 23:11:34 -0400 From: "Eric Bertish" Subject: Re: IN> Where the Darkness Knows No Dawn > (1) Which is what I'm saying here, really -- "I find > high-Darkness IN to be extremely depressing and it > makes me feel very 'down', even while I can > simultaneously admire the artistry with which parts of > it have been written." To be fair, those of us who like our chocolate extra-dark feel pretty much the same way every time gooey-sweet fiction is posted. I like the structures and style, but it leaves a taste in my mouth and a feeling in my stomach like I've eaten WAY too much candy. - -- Casca "Undead, like the senior citizens of the more traditional democracies, represent a disproportionate segment of the electorate. However, their political leanings are quite different, as the short term is essentially meaningless to one who expects to live for over 1,000 years." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 22:14:11 -0500 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> Where the Darkness Knows No Dawn - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Whistling in the Dark" To: Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 9:40 PM Subject: Re: IN> Where the Darkness Knows No Dawn > What, you're taking what Kronos says as Gospel? Come on.... Not Kronos. Yves. Did he not say that the wedding, and its aftermath, was their respective Fates? [snip] > I don't think by *any* means this is inevitable from a marriage between > Michael and Novalis. It was just One Direction That Could Be Taken. True. And definitely, it's the One Direction that best leads to a viable /game/ setting -- as with Moe's "Novalis Victory" scenario, there are stories that are wonderful to read but just don't leave much room to game in. [snip] > I honestly, seriously don't want to depress you with all of this. And > bear in mind, it all comes back to me with this stuff. Moe's stuff has > been light, and Josh's stuff was very light and affirming. So blame me > for it, and I'm sorry. Don't be sorry -- as I said, it's just as valid an artistic choice as the other, and it was *extremely* well-written. It's just... well, as the person responsible for starting the entire Michael/Novalis romance meme in the first place (1)... [dammit, accidentally bumped the 'Enter' key! Hope I was able to cancel the send in time... if not, then second verse, /not/ the same as the first] ... way back in the day, I suppose I /had/ to say this. But don't let my whining stop a good story in progress. Carry on. - -- Chuckg (1) Or if not originating it -- and I can't remember seeing it in the list archives before my original "The Unlikeliest Relationship..." fanfic -- at least being the first person to take it from 'obscure offhand mention' to 'breakthrough'. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 23:15:20 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Where the Darkness Knows No Dawn On Thursday, October 3, 2002, at 11:09 PM, S.D. wrote: > I, for one, hope you continue. It's dark, yes, but it's *very* good. > And interesting. I can't wait to see what happens next... > Thank you -- my intent *is* to continue, unless a good number of people are disturbed by Ein Darkness. I don't think anyone's asked me to stop, per se -- I'm just making it clear that if this stuff is a problem, it's a resolvable one. - -- Eric A. Burns Freelance Writer and Textual Whore http://www.annotations.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 23:20:21 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Where the Darkness Knows No Dawn On Thursday, October 3, 2002, at 11:10 PM, Charles Glasgow wrote: >> What, you're taking what Kronos says as Gospel? Come on.... > > Not Kronos. Yves. He pronounced that the wedding, and its aftermath, > was > their respective Fates. > Well, that's true. But if you remember all the way back to my old "Lilith, Queen of Hell" stuff, I've always been about Yves and Kronos fighting a war that had the rest of the War as an afterthought, and the other participants as expendable.... (Which is weird, because in my default game Yves is pretty nice and cool. It's just in my Settings he becomes a Bastard.) > Don't be sorry -- as I said, it's just as valid an artistic choice as > the > other, and it was *extremely* well-written. > > It's just... well, as the person responsible for starting the entire > Michael/Novalis romance meme in the first place (1), way back in the > day, I suppose I /had/ to say this. > But don't let my whining stop a good story in progress. Carry on. Good enough then. And thanks for the compliments! I just didn't want to bum people out with my 'words' and 'prepositions' and all. - -- Eric A. Burns Freelance Writer and Textual Whore http://www.annotations.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 23:22:40 -0400 From: "Josh Moger" Subject: Re: IN> The Event Mother will react when she finds >she's been cheated of Geasa through the Redemption process ... sure, I'll >let you play. You'll be my designated kick-toy for the campaign. > I don't know, the Geasa extracted could have left some Discordant scarring. I remember reading about how those things are like wires coiled within the soul of the Lilim, not so easy to remove and that Superiors actually may leave some behind, rather than risk the chance of accidental Force stripping. Rather, you might, as a GM, want to divide the number of Geasa a starting Free Lilim has to Lilith by some number (Discord? Experience points spent?), and have that be the starting Geasa of Brights, with the player being able to divide who the Geasa are owed to (Lilith, maybe Hostile AA's?, maybe a few demonic entities). Thus, the Bright has to deal with a bit of the same problem as their sisters. The reason I sent this to the list is because I figured that the above may actually be a good way of limiting the munchkin factor. Though your own roleplaying ideas would work well, so long as they're enforced by the GM. Huh. I think I'm starting to see why Brights were kept so rare in canon. Josh (Was there ever any discussion, I'm asking Beth, David, etc here, about causing the Brights to have a resonance shift along with an appearence shift, all post-redemption?) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 23:25:50 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Where the Darkness Knows No Dawn On Thursday, October 3, 2002, at 11:06 PM, Eric Bertish wrote: >> (And, if people are truly unhappy/depressed about this stuff to date, >> I'll stop immediately. I'm not doing this to bug people or bum them >> out.) > > Nah, I'm grooving on it. I don't see it as depressing, I see it as > Tragic > and Epic. > > But then, I read the Book of Revelations for kicks. I love the visual > imagery and the idea of "prophecy as literature", so maybe I'm not the > control group you're looking for. I dunno. I *did* contribute the Bramswitch Folio to IN/Tattered. Clearly, you're in my target demographic. (How come my *paid* writing has to be Westerns and Star Trek? Clearly, I'm meant to do Apocalyptic! This is all a Nybbisian plot!) - -- Eric A. Burns Freelance Writer and Textual Whore http://www.annotations.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 00:00:22 -0400 (EDT) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: IN> Watch out! Falling Malakim ahead... On Thu, 3 Oct 2002, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > At 3:40 PM -0500 10/2/02, Joe Reimers wrote: > >What is the "official" word on this, really? > > >C) As far as you know, Malakim cannot Fall. (i.e. no one knows for sure > >whether it may be possible given the right set of circumstances.) > > You push hard enough, I say C. No Malakite has been known to Fall. > You might, of course, see some seriously psychotic ones who might > as well... Might as well throw this link out... http://www.amadan.org/Innomine/DarkMalakim.htm BTW, if you've never been to David Edelstein's webpage, you're missing out on a LOT of canon-quality (and *very* canon-compatible) stuff. His Dark Malakim are 100% part of my campaign... though I doubt my players will ever know this as I may never bring one into play. Still, their existence is part of my universe. - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian, Q4B4L! Meow! "There is a road to freedom. Its milestones are Obedience, Endeavor, Honesty, Order, Cleanliness, Sobriety, Truthfulness, Sacrifice, and Patriotism." -- Adolf Hitler ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 00:11:16 -0400 (EDT) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: IN> Where the Darkness Knows No Dawn On Fri, 4 Oct 2002 glasgowc1@attbi.com wrote: > (1) Which is what I'm saying here, really -- "I find > high-Darkness IN to be extremely depressing and it > makes me feel very 'down', even while I can > simultaneously admire the artistry with which parts of > it have been written." Well, put me down for, "I find high-Darkness IN to be very cool, as we don't see enough of it IMHO. Crank up the angst-dial and let loose the dogs of Tragedy!" - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian, Q4B4L! Meow! "Yes, yes, yes, I'm the one that's been killing all those people, but I'm also the creative force behind Happy Noodle Boy, so forgive me and shut up." -- Johnny the Homicidal Maniac ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 00:17:36 -0400 (EDT) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: IN> Where the Darkness Knows No Dawn On Thu, 3 Oct 2002, Whistling in the Dark wrote: > (And, if people are truly unhappy/depressed about this stuff to date, > I'll stop immediately. I'm not doing this to bug people or bum them > out.) I don't think a work of dark fiction is going to drive anyone over the edge of sanity soon, so consider this a demand to continue your fine work... with a warning label at the top if necessary. :) "Warning: Those of weak heart or faint constitution may wish to avert their eyes from the following descent into the darkest netheregions of the In Nomine universe...." - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian, Q4B4L! Meow! It is a sad commentary on today's society that this .sig file must be considered "offensive" simply because it contains the word "fuck". ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 07:35:17 +0300 From: "Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW)" Subject: RE: IN> New Media Attunement On 10/3/02 9:54 AM, "Cameron McCurry" wrote: > I'm with the Band - -----Original Message----- From: Matthew Gerber [mailto:mgerber@eyrie.org] *Gah.* Personally, I think this Attunement is actually more suited to The Game, Theft, and/or Wind than to Media. If you're using "Spymaster Marc", it would work well for Trade too. Very well done, Cameron. Matt DS1 I dunno. Why does everything have to be an Attunement? You should have to do some things the old fashioned way, talking and using your wit instead of relying on Songs. Fast talk, lying and generally being a con artist could easily cover this, and save the Attunment for important things that require supernatural boosting. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 23:45:16 -0600 From: Julian Mensch Subject: RE: IN> Where the Darkness Knows No Dawn << The meme that War and Peace could not reconcile without Fate *immediately* punishing them and all the innocents of the world along with them for it horribly is *very* depressing to me. It's like saying that the lion can never lie down with the lamb. >> Whistling, forgive me if I'm misanalysing your work. I think the difference here is between 'coexist' and 'lie down with'. I've just been writing Backwards Heaven a lot, and part of the horror comes from how _unnatural_ some of the compromises are. In this setting, Backwards Novalis has 'worked on' David until the point where he's fundamentally not Stone anymore, where he cares more about not causing discord in Heaven or saying anything that might hurt Novy then he does about making humanity strong enough to prevail. By contrast, Hell is alive and vibrant and sympathetic _because_ everyone is scheming against each other and pushing forward their personal causes. It's actually remarkably similar to a Bright, Forwards Heaven in that regard: the people involved care enough about the specific corner of goodness they've been given dominion over to fight like wet cats over it. When you truly, passionately care about something, you /have/ to fight for it. You _can't_ just take the road of least resistance and put aside your values in the interests of harmony, cooperation and unity. Conflict is not inherantly evil, and sometimes cooperation can be a horrible, blasphemous thing. IOW, In any Bright universe Mike and Novy _should_ spend at least half their time screaming their heads off at each other. Now, the fun part here is that (in World 2, at least) there's nothing inherant in this that prevents them from fooling around with each other on the side, as long as they're _still fighting_. After all, conflict doesn't mean that they have to lose respect for each other, play dirty or let it become bitter and cruel. But they must always fight their very hardest, because _it's their job_, and more than that it's what they care about more than anything else in creation. It's like Michael is a prosecutor and Novalis a defense attourney: he must always make sure Heaven wins militarily -- i.e., that they use enough violence, while she must work to further peace and healing, ensuring that they don't use too much violence. Now, they can _coexist_, respect each other and even get busy with each other. But when prosecution and defense are in unity with each other, when the conflict truly ceases, you get a miscarriage of justice, a profoundly unnatural and warped situation. When Mike and Novy really find it possible to stop fighting completely, one or both have betrayed their Words on some level. In my reading, that's what the wedding represented _in Whistling's vignettes_. In many Brighter vignettes, I've noticed, the Mike/ Novy 'ship heats up without the competitive aspect between them going away. Moe's "Michael's Challenges" entry is a good example here, showing them flirting while still pushing their Words and maintaining their duty. Part of what makes this kind of relationship so worthy of being on the White Hats' side -- Heaven or Backwards Hell, doesn't really matter -- is that people can love each other and _still_ conflict, _still_ keep their diversity and even still work at odds with each other. It's mutual _respect_, which is stronger than bland unity or unnatural compromise any day. IOW, the lion is not evil for being a predator, but when it lies down with the lamb, it's betraying it's own nature, the core of what it is, for a cheap fix of shallow harmony. - -- Julian Mensch ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2800 ********************************