in_nomine-digest Wednesday, October 9 2002 Volume 01 : Number 2809 In this digest: RE: IN> Is this an overenthusiastic Cherub or what? Re: IN> Those Pesky Malakim Re: IN> Is this an overenthusiastic Cherub or what? IN> Firemen Questions Re: IN> INverse Superior- Michael, Demon King of War Re: IN> INverse Superior- Michael, Demon King of War IN> word reach (was Re: IN> Word-bound reliever) Re: IN> Firemen Questions IN> Those Pesky Malakim IN> The Glory of Islam Re: IN> The Glory of Islam RE: IN> The Glory of Islam Re: IN> The Glory of Islam Re: IN> The Glory of Islam RE: IN> Firemen Questions RE: IN> An appropriate punishment? Re: IN> The Glory of Islam Re: IN> INverse Superior- Michael, Demon King of War Re: IN> The Glory of Islam ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 04:42:43 +0800 From: "Janet Anderson" Subject: RE: IN> Is this an overenthusiastic Cherub or what? > Out of pure nosiness, what animal is the basis for your cherub's celestial > form? > > Earl I answered this question privately to your e-mail address. (I want to keep this little detail a surprise for my PBEM players, all but one of whom are on this list.) If you didn't receive my answer, it means your e-mail source doesn't like Graffiti any more than it did Hotmail. Let me know. Janet Anderson - -- _______________________________________________ Get your free email from http://www.graffiti.net Powered by Outblaze ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 17:17:10 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Those Pesky Malakim At 15:39 -0400 10/8/02, William J. Keith wrote: >>I remember reading (somewhere) that when you are Vessel-killed, your >>Forces are blasted apart, and coalesce by your Heart after about an hour. > >Nope: in fact, G:IN specifically says it takes just "a few seconds", and I >have no reason to believe that this is any change from the original. It's a clarification from the LE, as I recall; the original is ambiguous about what happens with Malakim, except that they don't get Trauma. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 14:12:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Is this an overenthusiastic Cherub or what? That's no Cherub, that's a Dissonant Grigori. Probably lost her oryx Vessel to a lion, poor thing. =====

Michael Walton, #US2002023848

"If you succeed, you will make some false friends and some true enemies. Succeed anyway." - -- Bishop David M. Copeland

__________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 21:32:08 +0300 From: "Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW)" Subject: IN> Firemen Questions Okay, so I'm working on a bit of fanfic (aren't we all somewhere) and looking at an encounter with Gabriel and I suddenly run into some questions. What's the deal with the Firemen? Why are they both Cherub? Was it simply a space saving editorial gambit? Is it changed in a later supplement that I don't have? I mean, wouldn't it make more sense to have two different Choirs in that capacity? Surely it would be useful to have an Ofanite on hand. He wouldn't be able to keep up with Gabriel, should she decide to try and outrun her babysitters, but he could certainly get help to the site of her next blow up more swiftly. Or a Kyrio, to possess the occasional innocent human that might get caught too close to ground zero when Gabriel looses it. The whole redundancy thing just grates on me; the redundant songs especially. If the hint that they are some powerful angel split into two is true, I guess there is a reason for it. Or I could explain that because they both have always done the same thing, follow Gabriel around and fix things she breaks, that one never learned anything without the other one learning it too; but it seems so wasteful of potential. I'd think at least one would have the Celestial version of Shields. Being able to make smoke (and around Gabriel it seems they would have that often enough) thicker and hide Gabriel from the eyes of humans seems to be a good thing to have around. A song of Ice or Storms to help put out fires wouldn't be a bad thing either. And for that matter, it doesn't list them as having the Cherub of Destiny attunement. Does becoming a Master of Divine Knowledge remove your base Choir Attunement? I don't get that impression from the write up, but on the same page (27 of "The Marches") it lists two other sample servitors of Gabriel. The Ofanite has his Choir attunement specifically listed but the Mercurian does not. I'm guessing it's a space saving thing, but I wouldn't bet my house on it. If they have the Malakite of Destiny attunement from their Master of Destiny Distinction, doesn't that mean they should have Malakim Oaths as well? Can a servitor of Destiny who takes the Malakite attunement as their Master of Devine Knowledge ability Fall? Or does he also gain the Malakim immunity? Woah, wouldn't that be a trip! Okay... there's a semi-plot seed in that. A Seraph or Cherub Master of Devine Knowledge who has taken the Malakite attunement, but the PCs don't know what his choir is because it's not like they have it stamped on their foreheads or anything and so maybe they've never seen him go celestial. Anyways, through what ever tragedy, he goes Outcast and looks to be about to Fall. So either Angels have to try and help him back, wondering all the time if some Malakim Hit Squad is going to show up to "deal" with the problem, or Demons are given the opportunity to help what they think is the first Malakim to ever Fall. Eh... I'm too tired to think it all the way through, but there's a game plot in there somewhere.... G'night DS1 Calabim of Factions, petitioner for the word of Road Rage ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 14:28:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> INverse Superior- Michael, Demon King of War - --- sirea@softhome.net wrote: > Balseraphim: When starting play, these Liars get one free > level in one of > the three areas (Corporeal, Ethereal, and Celestial) of > the following three > Songs: War, Self, and Darkness. That's pretty unfocused. Do these Liars not have a specific role in the War? If so, which of these nine Songs best serves it? > Calabim: If a Calabite of War is fighting an angel in > combat, he may use his > resonance to destroy the resonance of his angelic > opponent. Niiiiiice. I wish I'd thought of this one. > Shedim: Michael's Fleshless can possess anyone who is in > physical combat. > Because of these Shedim, there has been many tales of > some warriors becoming > "possessed by the berserker spirit", suddenly striking > with deadly accuracy and strength. Does this mean that the Shedite can possess a fighting person automatically? > Impudite: The flames of conflict burn everywhere, and > these Takers know what > it takes to fan them. An Impudite of War will know what, > if anything, will > ignite a conflict between any two people they have met. What are the mechanics of this? > Captain of the Soul: Tapping into the vast power of > Michael's symphony, the > demon is now immune to any and all angelic resonances. [twitch] This is way too munchkiny to live. Even if used, it's too powerful for anything short of a Baron level Distinction. > Baron of the War: The Barons of the Firstborn can now > perceive the flow of > battle like no other fighter, and become effectively > immune to attacks from > lesser beings. When fighting anyone who has less Forces > than the Baron, they > will automatically Dodge any and all melee or ranged > attacks that come their > way, be they corporeal, ethereal or celestial in nature. This is almost as bad as the last one. It effectively makes Barons of War minor Superiors when it comes to combat versus lesser Celestials -- and that means that this is an NPC-only Distinction if you care about game balance. =====

Michael Walton, #US2002023848

"If you succeed, you will make some false friends and some true enemies. Succeed anyway." - -- Bishop David M. Copeland

__________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 16:14:57 -0600 From: sirea@softhome.net Subject: Re: IN> INverse Superior- Michael, Demon King of War Michael Walton writes: > --- sirea@softhome.net wrote: >> Balseraphim: When starting play, these Liars get one free >> level in one of >> the three areas (Corporeal, Ethereal, and Celestial) of >> the following three >> Songs: War, Self, and Darkness. > > That's pretty unfocused. Do these Liars not have a > specific role in the War? If so, which of these nine Songs > best serves it? They do, it's just that they are abe to tap into the Songs that define Micahel. War (War), Self (Hubris) and Darkness (Darkness). The three Songs as I read, are pretty powerful and useful, and each Balseraph gets one free level in each of these normally restricted Songs, but only in one realm at a time, making each Balseraph of War a slightly unpredictable opponent. I figured since the Songs were not common and rare, it was a good trade-off. > >> Calabim: If a Calabite of War is fighting an angel in >> combat, he may use his >> resonance to destroy the resonance of his angelic >> opponent. > > Niiiiiice. I wish I'd thought of this one. > > >> Shedim: Michael's Fleshless can possess anyone who is in >> physical combat. >> Because of these Shedim, there has been many tales of >> some warriors becoming >> "possessed by the berserker spirit", suddenly striking >> with deadly accuracy and strength. > > Does this mean that the Shedite can possess a fighting > person automatically? Yes. If someone is in combat, they do not need to roll Will to be able to possess their host. > >> Impudite: The flames of conflict burn everywhere, and >> these Takers know what >> it takes to fan them. An Impudite of War will know what, >> if anything, will >> ignite a conflict between any two people they have met. > > What are the mechanics of this? *laughs* well, you see, I took the wording in the main rulebook for Mercurians of War attunement and perverted it ^_^ basically, if the Impudite knows two people personally who also know each other, he will know one thing that will spark a conflict between the two of them. > >> Captain of the Soul: Tapping into the vast power of >> Michael's symphony, the >> demon is now immune to any and all angelic resonances. > > [twitch] This is way too munchkiny to live. Even if > used, it's too powerful for anything short of a Baron level > Distinction. Would a resistance of the Captains Celestial Forces plus Will to demonic resonance, and subtracting the Captains Celestial Forces from the roll of all angelic resonances be better? > >> Baron of the War: The Barons of the Firstborn can now >> perceive the flow of >> battle like no other fighter, and become effectively >> immune to attacks from >> lesser beings. When fighting anyone who has less Forces >> than the Baron, they >> will automatically Dodge any and all melee or ranged >> attacks that come their >> way, be they corporeal, ethereal or celestial in nature. > > This is almost as bad as the last one. It effectively > makes Barons of War minor Superiors when it comes to combat > versus lesser Celestials -- and that means that this is an > NPC-only Distinction if you care about game balance. Would the simple power of being able to Dodge all -melee- attacks (NOT Songs, attunements, etc.) on any of the thee planes be less overpowered? --- Sirea, Free Cherub IST Destiny, Angel who Wanders, petitioner for the Word of Eternity ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 15:17:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Jim Burzelic Subject: IN> word reach (was Re: IN> Word-bound reliever) > Cute, but remember: In Angelic or Demonic, the terms > for an unfledged > celestial and a relief pitcher for baseball are two > totally different > things. As mentioned in the GMG, the Angel of Coke > (Stone) has the Word > encompassing the mineral fuel... it has NO overlap > with the soda or the > drug, which are totally different Words. Man, that sucks then. I was hoping to have a demon in my game steal an old word that has fallen out of normal usage and abuse from the current demon that holds it, then take one of the other meanings of the word and become super-powerful. I thought this was what was done with words. Swords becoming the military-stuff of heaven, flowers being peace and passive-resistance(sort of), gluttony taking over greed, lightning enveloping good technology-stuff and progress, the game being internal affairs, Wind counting as robin-hoody theft, stone encompassing community, and hardcore being any form of extremism. I realize I can do whatever I want in my game but it's fun to stick to canon at least a bit. disillusioned, Jim __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 18:19:38 -0400 From: "William J. Keith" Subject: Re: IN> Firemen Questions Lots of questions here... let's take them one at a time. I don't have the Marches, so I don't have an exact writeup of the two, but I think some questions I can answer. >What's the deal with the Firemen? Why are they both Cherub? Well, Cherubim are there to protect -- the humans around her, and Gabriel herself. They are both Attuned to her, I daresay so that if she does leave their sight they can track her. I would hazard that there is some supernatural or ineffable reason that the two of them are so closely paired, since Yves sees fit not to answer the question. >capacity? Surely it would be useful to have an Ofanite on hand. They are Masters of Divine Knowledge, giving them the Ofanite Resonance. This is as good as a regular Ofanite would be in that capacity. >And for that matter, it doesn't list them as having the Cherub of Destiny >attunement. Does becoming a Master of Divine Knowledge remove your base >Choir Attunement? Yves' Master Distinction gives a new resonance, not a new Attunement; this is in addition to the angel's base Resonance (both Firemen are Attuned to Gabriel, which presumably happened either during a lucid moment of hers to acquiesce or with Yves' intervention). The omission of the Cherub of Destiny Attunement may be an oversight; the Choir Attunement for one's Superior is usually such a given that it might have accidentally been assumed in one place and not another. Have to check with the writers on that one. >If they have the Malakite of Destiny attunement from their Master of Destiny >Distinction, doesn't that mean they should have Malakim Oaths as well? Their Master Distinction gives them the Ofanite resonance. Any angel of Destiny, or any Malakite, can obtain the Malakite of Destiny Attunement, Distincted or no; if they are not Malakim, they need not take Malakite oaths. However, an angel who gains the Malakite resonance through Yves' Master Distinction is requied to take the necessary oaths and gains dissonance for breaking these. >Can a servitor of Destiny who takes the Malakite attunement as their Master >of Divine Knowledge ability Fall? Or does he also gain the Malakim >immunity? Woah, wouldn't that be a trip! I am under the impression that all you gain is the resonance and dissonance condition; I don't think such an angel gains immunity to Trauma and Falling, but am not 100% certain of this. >DS1 William ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 18:29:51 -0400 From: BC Petery Subject: IN> Those Pesky Malakim > It makes Malakim more > deserving of their Scare Factor if > they can come back right away, like > a plague of roaches...) So we're back to bustin' kneecaps? *The Scenario* I got jumped by a Malakite. It's a little complicated, so bear with. "You're just a Lilim, no big deal. I don't need back up." Or words to that effect. He must have been new. Meanwhile my Kung-Fu Bunny Lilim put the moves on him. Not dead, don't want to deal with the "No Trauma And Now I'm Back," just extremely unconcious. He's going to spend a little while in the Marches (while I take compromising photos to post on the internet). No problem, done it before. Turns out Shempiel had another Vessel. He chose to use it to once again manifest on the Corporeal plane. If that's the way it happens with possession, why not with other things that knock you out? A was new trick on me, but again, no problem. I blasted his ornery furbearin' hide. *The Problem* 1) Would the unconcious Vessel dissappear when the Malakim returned from the Marches in his fresh Vessel? 2) If the unconcious Vessel didn't dissappear when the Malakim returned, would it vanish (or die) when his second Vessel got killed? 3) As for the Malakim, if the unconcious Vessel was still around when he got blasted, would he: a) be back in the Marches due to the unconcious Vessel? or b) be in Heaven with his Heart as per having his Vessel blown away? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 23:03:45 -0400 From: Rolland Therrien Subject: IN> The Glory of Islam I've just finished watching the first part of the CBC documentary Islam: Empire of Faith, all about the early foundation of Islam by Mohammed, and the influence of Islan on human civilisation. Seems that after the Faith of Islam was founded, Mohammed's work spread the Faith to unify the lands of the middle east and upper Africa, creating in a short time an Empire greater then Rome had been in it's hayday. The Muslims had a culture of science, litterature and discovery that preserved much of greek civilisation's works, gave the seeds to the renaissance 600 years before Leonardo DeVinci, and generally created a magnificent civilisation that remained a powerful influence on the world until the fall of the Ottoman Empire around the 1900s. Now, can anyone explain to me why Khalid is a MINOR Superior, when at worst he should only be a waning Major Superior? >From what I've read of the works of the early Muslims, Khalid's beloved Muslim Empire was as powerful, if not moreso then the Christian, Western world ever was. It unified the divided tribes surrounding Mecca (thereby putting a thorn in Malphas' side), achieved a semi-peaceful conquest of the middle-east, where those conquered were allowed to live in harmony (favoring Michael's approach to victory over Baal's), and promoted the practice of fair trade, fine agriculture, and artistic, litterary and scientific accomplishments (all high points for Marc, Novalis, Eli, Yves and Jean.) Heck, considering Islam's focus on obeying God's Laws above all things, I don't think Dominic would have any serious reasons to dislike it. And yet Khalid seems not only to be the Poor Man of Heaven, he's on the verge of being an outcast and fallen Superior just because he's annoyed by the fact he didn't get to be Commander of the Host, or because the Muslim world isn't as influential now as it had once been (a very recent event, in an immortal Superior's eye). Quite frankly, I don't buy it. First of all, why would Khalid be disappointed in God's decision to appoint Laurence as Commander? That would be doubting the wisdom of God's judgement, which would obviously be against Khalid's word. Khalid should've accepted God's decision without question, and turn his attention to the duties of his Word. Secondly, as for the matter of Khalid's religious preferences: I think Khalid's love of the Islamic world is simply the fact that of all the world's religions, Islam is the one that most upholds his Word. Unlike the Western, Christian world, where faith gave way to dogma, and unlike Buddhism, which focused more on internal contemplation rather then direct contemplation of the Divine, Islam's approach was beautiful in it's simplicity: Muslims deal with Allah directly, not through priests. Teachers and Scholars instruct the Faithful in the rules of Islam and remind them how to behave correctly, but would not control them. And rather then lots of complex ritualism, it has just five pillars: Declaration of Faith, Daily Prayer, the Ramadan Fast, Giving Alms to the Poor, and the pilgrimage to Mecca. Something any simple human could comprehend. What more could an Archangel of Faith want? Thirdly, why would Khalid have a problem with Haven's "secondary" status? Such a status would be highly debatable, considering that within 20 years of Islam's foundation, the Faith already rivaled Christianity in the way of raw numbers, and that it's followers where lightyears ahead of the Christians in many ways. Not that an Elohite Archangel would brag, mind you... As for the Crusades... The Islamic world did eventually win them, it should be noted. Why should Khalid hold a grudge on the losers? The Middle East's status as a Third World region is really a recent development, as far as a timetable of centuries is taken into account. And while modern day Muslims see the Christian West as the cause of the Middle East's problems, the truth is that religion has little do with it. If anything, more Materialistic Demon Princes like Mammon, Malphas and Baal are to blame. And while Khalid might want to deal with their influence independantly, he'd probably not object to his brother Laurence's help, never mind blaming him for it. At this point, maybe I should stop ranting and just write a heretical version of Khalid, shouldn't I? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 23:34:17 -0400 From: "Josh Moger" Subject: Re: IN> The Glory of Islam All good questions: Father was the re-called AA of Purity. Brother became Commander of the Host, and is the Patron of Christianity, and openly wants it to be the dominant religion on Earth. AA who began Islam is hounded by AA of Judgement, and undefended by the person who encourage her to do so. And Khalid is the Archangel of Faith, not Islam. His Word and power may have waxed a great deal more if it was Islam, but it isn't, and Faith has gone through some trying times in the past centuries. Well, I think that's the surface, or at least the canon ideas. >At this point, maybe I should stop ranting and just write a heretical >version of Khalid, shouldn't I? Would neither be the first, nor probably, the last. I highly recommend you both do so and take a gander at Moe's Bright Lilim and Grigori versions. Both give a rather well explained reason for the comparative lack of power with Khalid, though I wouldn't expressively say he's a minor Superior. Not discussed as much due to the politics of Heaven, but I'd peg him as a Major Superior. Faith is too big a word for humanity. Josh (course, I happily live in PSIN, where no one's quite sure what choir Khalid is this week (due to Superior level, Faith powered Ineffibility) and Laurence was able to convince him to come back to Heaven only after the former promised to write "I will respect all of God's religions" on a blackboard 100 times.) ^_^' ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 21:52:10 -0600 From: Julian Mensch Subject: RE: IN> The Glory of Islam Islam does make a fascinating study, doesn't it? Anyway, Khalid, per David Edelstien, isn't a minor Superior in anything but divine politics; he's going to be treated as a major in all other ways, notably raw supernatural power. He also got a full-length writeup in Sup3, unlike the other minors. (If I'm not up on what you said, David, feel free to correct.) Also, I think it's important to remember that Khalid is not the only Muslim in Heaven. Gabriel also is, and is canonically closer to Islam than any other religion nowadays, though she's exactly as much a Muslim as Dom is a Christian, IMO. Strangely, I've also always seen Blandine as being Islamic, and Azrael as operating in those regions. I think that IN needs a few less "wound up" Muslims, truthfully. If we can call Kevin Smith a legitimate Christian IRL, I see no reason why Blandine and Azzie can't be legitimate Muslims in the game. IOW, you don't need to be dogmatic to be a legitimate member of any faith, IRL or in IN, so I see no reason that Heaven's most obvious Muslim is it's only one. Raphael would also have been a good candidate for an Islamic AA, especially in her given time period. In the French game, Eli and "Alain" (AA of Cultures) are both Muslims along with Khalid. This makes Khalid's extreme conservatism a lot less offensive, in the context of INS/MV. And I imagine Khalid holds a Crusade grudge not because of who won, but because of the terrible suffering that the Crusades inflicted on Muslim lands. Likewise, most Western nations hold a "Hitler grudge" even though the Allies "won" WWII. Also, I've always seen Asmodeus as being a wonderful Muslim on the other side, or at least mockery thereof. All that legalism and dogma seems very Arabic in cultural origin, and "Asmodeus"-the-name features prominantly in Islamic mythlore as an adversary of Solomon. - -- Julian Mensch ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 00:14:19 -0400 From: "Josh Moger" Subject: Re: IN> The Glory of Islam >Gabriel also is, and >is canonically closer to Islam than any other religion >nowadays, though she's exactly as much a Muslim as Dom >is a Christian, IMO. That, along with the rest of the e-mail, actually, was perfect stated. That really does work, and is nicely ironic. Josh ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 00:05:27 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> The Glory of Islam Rolland Therrien wrote: > Now, can anyone explain to me why Khalid is a MINOR Superior, when at worst > he should only be a waning Major Superior? A complicated question, both in terms of real-life issues regarding Islam, and fictional ones regarding the IN universe. The simple answer is that Kalid is a "minor" Superior in that he has fewer Servitors and less Earthly influence than most, because for the past few centuries he has pretty much limited himself to a narrow geographical area. In terms of sheer power as an Archangel, he is probably not minor at all. >>From what I've read of the works of the early Muslims, Khalid's beloved > Muslim Empire was as powerful, if not moreso then the Christian, Western > world ever was. Well, not really. It covered more territory, but even at its height the dar al-Islam was never as unified or organized as the Roman Empire was. > Quite frankly, I don't buy it. First of all, why would Khalid be > disappointed in God's decision to appoint Laurence as Commander? That would > be doubting the wisdom of God's judgement, which would obviously be against > Khalid's word. Khalid should've accepted God's decision without question, > and turn his attention to the duties of his Word. Yes, he should have. That he didn't showed that he was flawed in spirit - -- which led to his near-Fall, and may well be the reason he was not chosen in the first place. IN wouldn't have as much drama if Superiors always behaved the way they "should." > Secondly, as for the matter of Khalid's religious preferences: I think > Khalid's love of the Islamic world is simply the fact that of all the > world's religions, Islam is the one that most upholds his Word. Unlike the > Western, Christian world, where faith gave way to dogma, and unlike > Buddhism, which focused more on internal contemplation rather then direct > contemplation of the Divine, Islam's approach was beautiful in it's > simplicity: > > Muslims deal with Allah directly, not through priests. Teachers and > Scholars instruct the Faithful in the rules of Islam and remind them how to > behave correctly, but would not control them. And rather then lots of > complex ritualism, it has just five pillars: Declaration of Faith, Daily > Prayer, the Ramadan Fast, Giving Alms to the Poor, and the pilgrimage to > Mecca. Something any simple human could comprehend. What more could an > Archangel of Faith want? Note that you are presenting a highly idealized description of Islam. Yes, that's how Islam was originally supposed to work, but then, Christianity was beautiful in its original simplicity too. Love thy neighbor as thyself, and accept Jesus as the Son of God. Islam didn't take long to become extremely dogmatic, and while in theory there are no "clergy" in Islam, in practice both Sunnis and Shiites look to religious authorities who take on the role of interpreters of God's word, and whatever they say the Quran says, millions of Muslims will believe. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 11:56:07 +0300 From: "Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW)" Subject: RE: IN> Firemen Questions DS1 >What's the deal with the Firemen? Why are they both Cherub? - -----Original Message----- From: William J. Keith [mailto:wjk150@email.psu.edu] Well, Cherubim are there to protect -- the humans around her, and Gabriel herself. They are both Attuned to her, I daresay so that if she does leave their sight they can track her. I would hazard that there is some supernatural or ineffable reason that the two of them are so closely paired, since Yves sees fit not to answer the question. DS1 Okay. That exactly answers nothing. I can read so I already know they are Cherubs, I even mentioned it in my question. The fact that Cherubs can attune to things is covered already. The entire reason for their being is to protect Gabriel from herself, which implies protecting the humans around her. In fact "The Marches" states that they are "nearly always attuned to Gabriel", as well as mentioning that Yves isn't talking about why they are so closely matched. I wasn't asking Yves, I was asking the list. DS1 >capacity? Surely it would be useful to have an Ofanite on hand. - -----Original Message----- From: William J. Keith [mailto:wjk150@email.psu.edu] They are Masters of Divine Knowledge, giving them the Ofanite Resonance. This is as good as a regular Ofanite would be in that capacity. DS1 Where does it state they have the Ofanite Resonance? It implies the Malakite Resonance in the fact that they have the Malakite Attunement for Yves. No where did I see the Ofanite Resonance listed. DS1 >And for that matter, it doesn't list them as having the Cherub of Destiny >attunement. Does becoming a Master of Divine Knowledge remove your base >Choir Attunement? - -----Original Message----- From: William J. Keith [mailto:wjk150@email.psu.edu] Yves' Master Distinction gives a new resonance, not a new Attunement; this is in addition to the angel's base Resonance (both Firemen are Attuned to Gabriel, which presumably happened either during a lucid moment of hers to acquiesce or with Yves' intervention). The omission of the Cherub of Destiny Attunement may be an oversight; the Choir Attunement for one's Superior is usually such a given that it might have accidentally been assumed in one place and not another. Have to check with the writers on that one. DS1 I may did misread that, probably because no other Resonances were listed anyplace but other Attunments were. I did point out that other examples on the same page were in conflict on this issue. I'd have to page through a couple of supplements to find out if this is due to non-standardization of information listings or just a momentary lapse of editing on that one page. Either way, the Resonance that the Firemen are gifted with due to their Master Distinction was not listed. DS1 >If they have the Malakite of Destiny attunement from their Master of Destiny >Distinction, doesn't that mean they should have Malakim Oaths as well? - -----Original Message----- From: William J. Keith [mailto:wjk150@email.psu.edu] Their Master Distinction gives them the Ofanite resonance. Any angel of Destiny, or any Malakite, can obtain the Malakite of Destiny Attunement, Distincted or no; if they are not Malakim, they need not take Malakite oaths. However, an angel who gains the Malakite resonance through Yves' Master Distinction is requied to take the necessary oaths and gains dissonance for breaking these. DS1 I'd like to know why you think they have the Ofanite Resonance. Did I just totally miss a line last night? I'll agree I misread Yves' Master Distinction, but it still doesn't list what they gained with it. DS1 >Can a servitor of Destiny who takes the Malakite attunement as their Master >of Divine Knowledge ability Fall? Or does he also gain the Malakim >immunity? Woah, wouldn't that be a trip! - -----Original Message----- From: William J. Keith [mailto:wjk150@email.psu.edu] I am under the impression that all you gain is the resonance and dissonance condition; I don't think such an angel gains immunity to Trauma and Falling, but am not 100% certain of this. DS1 I think you're right on this. It was just a thought that crossed my mind while thinking about the subject. I mean, the only ones this would apply to would be angels in Yves service who have reached such potential as to become Masters, so we're not talking a lot of angels to begin with. Then it would have to be the few of that select group who chose to take on the Oaths of a Malakim, which would make it a pretty stern group of angels, and a very small group too. I can't see there being more than a handful of them. I may have to write one up now, just to see what sort'a personality it would be. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 13:47:20 +0300 From: "Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW)" Subject: RE: IN> An appropriate punishment? - --- Joe Reimers wrote: > because they had secured valid Roles, that > might have been my boo-boo: should there even have been a > disturbance? - -----Original Message----- From: Michael Walton [mailto:thunderdog_sa@yahoo.com] Heck, yeah. Roles don't eliminate Disturbance, they reduce it. Which means that a solid enough Role can eliminate a small Disturbance, but that much property damage would be way too loud for a Role to cover it. Even if you reduced the Disturbance by the PC's combined Roles, every Celestial in Austin still would've heard it. ===== DS1 Errk??? When a Celestial performs an action which would normally upset the balance of the Symphony (See Perceiving the Symphony, p 54), the GM may roll against the level of the character's Role plus his Corporeal Forces, if a case could be made for the action occurring "in the line of duty." If the roll is successful, then the Celestial's Role has successfully masked his meddling from the attention of other divine or infernal forces. (pp44 of the Big White Book of In Nomine) That doesn't sound like reduces noise, it sounds like it completely nullifies the noise. The question would be, did the character who set off the nuclear meltdown actually make his Role roll. Much more importantly... Did his Role have any reason to actually set off the melt down? It doesn't sound like any of them had a Role reason to do so. If they were anti-nuke eco-terrorists, or some sort of radicals like that, then doing something so destructive might be covered. But if I recall correctly, none of them had Roles except the Lilim. And while they may have successfully managed to get jobs as staff in the University, none of their jobs would advocate such destruction so they are still not covered. But, if as a Celestial, your role is a suicide bomber and you blow yourself up with a truck load of dynamite and take out a city block with you, it makes no noise if you make your Role roll. You just have to have a reason for your Role to be taking those actions and it has to be reasonable. My understanding of this page is that the interpretation of when the Role covers things is solely up to the GM. This makes Lithroy's denying his servitors any Roles a much heavier handicap. DS1 Calabim of Factions, petitioner for the Word of Road Rage ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 07:09:16 -0400 From: Cameron McCurry Subject: Re: IN> The Glory of Islam Rolland Therrien said unto us: >>And while modern day Muslims see the Christian West as the cause of the Middle East's problems, the truth is that religion has little do with it. If anything, more Materialistic Demon Princes like Mammon, Malphas and Baal are to blame. The Middle East's problems are as much their own fault as anything else. I doubt that in the IN world the Demon Princes had to help things along. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 05:38:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> INverse Superior- Michael, Demon King of War - --- sirea@softhome.net wrote: > They do, it's just that they are abe to tap into the > Songs that define > Micahel. War (War), Self (Hubris) and Darkness > (Darkness). The three Songs > as I read, are pretty powerful and useful, and each > Balseraph gets one free > level in each of these normally restricted Songs, but > only in one realm at a > time, making each Balseraph of War a slightly > unpredictable opponent. I > figured since the Songs were not common and rare, it was > a good trade-off. These Songs are powerful and useful, enough so that they need to be restricted. Having a starting PC with access to all three, well... > *laughs* well, you see, I took the wording in the main > rulebook for > Mercurians of War attunement and perverted it ^_^ > basically, if the Impudite > knows two people personally who also know each other, he > will know one thing > that will spark a conflict between the two of them. I was inquiring about specific bonuses, for example a bonus of (demon's Celestial Forces) to the TN of any attempt to provoke a fight. > Would a resistance of the Captains Celestial Forces plus > Will to demonic > resonance, and subtracting the Captains Celestial Forces > from the roll of > all angelic resonances be better? Yes, it would. > Would the simple power of being able to Dodge all -melee- > attacks (NOT > Songs, attunements, etc.) on any of the thee planes be > less overpowered? A more focused automatic dodge works, as does a constant bonus to dodge any physical attack. I wouldn't let them dodge mental attacks or Attunements, though. =====

Michael Walton, #US2002023848

"If you succeed, you will make some false friends and some true enemies. Succeed anyway." - -- Bishop David M. Copeland

__________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 05:49:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> The Glory of Islam - --- Rolland Therrien wrote: > Now, can anyone explain to me why Khalid is a MINOR > Superior, when at worst > he should only be a waning Major Superior? In-game reason: Khalid had issues which caused him to neglect part of his Heavenly duties. Out-of-game reason: Eurocentrism and ethnocentrism are endemic to the decision-making levels of the gaming industry, even at SJG. > Muslims deal with Allah directly, not through priests. According to the New Testament this is the way it's supposed to be done in Christianity, too. Catholicism instituted the priest as intermediary. > Teachers and > Scholars instruct the Faithful in the rules of Islam and > remind them how to > behave correctly, but would not control them. That's the ideal, yes. But in much of the Islamic world (says a guy who used to live in Turkey, one of the more liberal Muslim states), the system amounts to religious dictatorship. Just look at Iran if you don't believe me. To the Islamic way of thinking, separation of church and state is undesirable; religious laws is _the_ law. When fundamentalists like the Shia are in power, this has historically led to oppressive male chauvinist regimes that are intolerant at best of other cultures. > And rather then lots of > complex ritualism, it has just five pillars: Declaration > of Faith, Daily > Prayer, the Ramadan Fast, Giving Alms to the Poor, and > the pilgrimage to Mecca. There's also the unofficial fifth pillar of Jihad. Not strictly in the Koran, true, but something that many Muslims practice nonetheless (hence our current political situation). =====

Michael Walton, #US2002023848

"If you succeed, you will make some false friends and some true enemies. Succeed anyway." - -- Bishop David M. Copeland

__________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2809 ********************************