in_nomine-digest Wednesday, October 9 2002 Volume 01 : Number 2811 In this digest: Re: IN> INverse Superior- Michael, Demon King of War Re: IN> An appropriate punishment? Re: IN> The Glory of Islam RE: IN> Firemen Questions RE: IN> Firemen Questions Re: IN> Firemen Questions Re: IN> INverse Superior- Michael, Demon King of War Re: IN> An appropriate punishment? Re: IN> Those Pesky Malakim Re: IN> INverse Superior- Michael, Demon King of War RE: IN> Firemen Questions Re: IN> INverse Superior- Michael, Demon King of War Re: IN> INverse Superior- Michael, Demon King of War Re: IN> INverse Superior- Michael, Demon King of War RE: IN> Firemen Questions RE: IN> Firemen Questions Re: IN> INverse Superior- Michael, Demon King of War Re: IN> INverse Superior- Michael, Demon King of War Re: IN> Firemen Questions Re: IN> An appropriate punishment? Re: IN> An appropriate punishment? IN> word reach IN> Faith (from: The Glory of Islam) Re: IN> word reach (was Re: IN> Word-bound reliever) Re: IN> Firemen Questions RE: IN> Firemen Questions Re: IN> Faith (from: The Glory of Islam) RE: IN> Firemen Questions RE: IN> Firemen Questions IN> Questions about Litheroy and Songs IN> And the Stars Shined On (a variation on a theme) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 10:30:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> INverse Superior- Michael, Demon King of War - --- sirea@softhome.net wrote: > If you got a idea for a better attunement, please > feel free to throw it in. Well, intelligence (in the sense of scouting) is one of the oft-overlooked but most critical aspects of waging a war. Balseraphim are in a unique position to control what intelligence the enemy has access to -- a process that RL strategists call disinformation. An Attunement working toward that end would be perfect. =====

Michael Walton, #US2002023848

"If you succeed, you will make some false friends and some true enemies. Succeed anyway." - -- Bishop David M. Copeland

__________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 10:35:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> An appropriate punishment? - --- Ryan M Roth wrote: > > The fusion research community has given up on trying to > build large > reactors for now, because they are too expensive, and > there are still some > issues that need to be resolved. The research has moved > (is moving) from > a scientific focus of trying to understand what works, to > an engineering > focus of trying to get things to work profitably. IOW, they still don't break even yet. Which is what I said. But thanks for the update; I wasn't aware of the new type reactors. > So, in addition to all their other problems, your PC's > may not have caused > enough damage to render the reactor completely > irrepairable, meaning that > it is quite possible that the thing will be up and > running again within a year or two. > > With better security. I like the way you think, Ryan. =====

Michael Walton, #US2002023848

"If you succeed, you will make some false friends and some true enemies. Succeed anyway." - -- Bishop David M. Copeland

__________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 10:24:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> The Glory of Islam - --- Rens Houben wrote: > Bearing in mind that the proper translation of "Jihad" > would be "Moral > struggle", more commonly mental or even introspective > than > violence-driven. Every terrorist that uses the term to > sanctify the > atrocities he commits is as much a hypocrite as Jerry > Falwell -- or in > fact everyone else who has ever let "god/allah/the > supreme being wills > it, I am merely His servant!" rule as an excuse for > atrocity. Now if only we could convince the terrorists of that. Alas, the IN world mirrors the real world in this case -- we just don't have Baal and Malphas to blame it on. =====

Michael Walton, #US2002023848

"If you succeed, you will make some false friends and some true enemies. Succeed anyway." - -- Bishop David M. Copeland

__________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 13:39:08 -0400 From: "Wajenberg, Earl" Subject: RE: IN> Firemen Questions My own hunch would be that they are cherubim because cherubim are natural guardians by both resonnance and temperament, and guarding is what they're doing here -- guarding the world from Gabriel and vice versa. There are two not just because of the chance of soul-death, because of the chance of the other being in Trauma, or, likeliest of all, because of the chance of a complicated, messy situation in which any one person would need help or need to be in more than one place at a time. No doubt more than two would be even more help, but one has to draw the line somewhere, and it got drawn at two. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 10:40:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: RE: IN> Firemen Questions - --- "Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW)" wrote: > why do we have two Cherubs doing a job that one could > do just as easily? 1) Backup. If they run into a bad situation (whether it's Gabriel or someone else who starts it), there's a chance that one can report even if the other is taken down. One possibility: a direct confrontation between Gabriel and Belial. Belial wouldn't care about getting Gabby's attention -- he might even be counting on it -- but the collateral damage could be a danger to both Firemen. 2) Sanity Checks. Not in the Call of Cthulhu sense, but in the sense that the Firemen, despite their similarities, are still distinct individuals with different viewpoints. If trouble is brewing, one might notice something that the other misses. =====

Michael Walton, #US2002023848

"If you succeed, you will make some false friends and some true enemies. Succeed anyway." - -- Bishop David M. Copeland

__________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 13:48:02 -0400 From: Cameron McCurry Subject: Re: IN> Firemen Questions "Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW)" said unto us: > Jeez, you managed to figure that out after what, five messages now? Actually, I had that figured out before your question. And I have also figured out that you are not interested in any answers that people give you. You are much more focused on impressing us with your skill in arguing and trolling. However... > I still think that is planning for failure. Then submit your write up already. Show us how much better it works in your fiction. Every answer that people have given you is obviously not going to be good enough so give us the alternative already. In the meantime, I am simply filing you under "Ignore" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 12:46:18 -0600 From: sirea@softhome.net Subject: Re: IN> INverse Superior- Michael, Demon King of War > Well, intelligence (in the sense of scouting) is one of > the oft-overlooked but most critical aspects of waging a > war. Balseraphim are in a unique position to control what > intelligence the enemy has access to -- a process that RL > strategists call disinformation. An Attunement working > toward that end would be perfect. Hmm... good point, and this would make them a whole lot more deadly than if they merely had a few powerful Songs. Give me some time to cook something good up (unless you already had a proposed attunement) and I'll implement it. Thanks ^_^ Otherwise, is Dark Michael a sound Superior? --- Sirea, Free Cherub IST Destiny, Angel who Wanders, petitioner for the Word of Eternity ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 13:58:27 -0500 From: Joe Reimers Subject: Re: IN> An appropriate punishment? At 03:15 PM 10/8/2002 -0400, you wrote: >"There's cooperation, and there's failing to use your Ethereal Forces, >Servitor..." Though, if you didn't make it clear enough how noisy it >would be, you should probably cut back on the pithy comments. This may sound stereotypical, but in this case, Ethereal FORCE would be more appropriate. He can beat you in an arm wrestling match, he can hold his own in a test of Wills, but let's just say he'll never be a Rhodes scholar. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 15:42:37 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Those Pesky Malakim At 6:29 PM -0400 10/8/02, BC Petery wrote: >*The Scenario* >Meanwhile my Kung-Fu Bunny Lilim put the moves on him. Not dead, don't want >to deal with the "No Trauma And Now I'm Back," just extremely unconcious. I'd rule that unless he made his roll to go to the Marches -- willful sleep -- he's unconscous and all is Fade To Black, actually. If he's possessed, he gets bumped to the Marches since someone else is using his vessel -- but if he's the only one using his vessel (you KNOW what I mean, stop sniggering; geeze, Andrealphans...), then he's got no auto-bounce to the Marches, I'd say. >*The Problem* > >1) Would the unconcious Vessel dissappear when the Malakim returned from the >Marches in his fresh Vessel? Even if he makes his Will roll to get to the Marches, he's unlikely to make it to Blandine's Tower, get up it, and return in a new vessel easily. However, rules for vessels and interacting with the Marches are in Superiors 3 (which has Blandine, therefore... O:> ). Basically, if you don't dissolve your vessel, you have to go back into it when you return. This doesn't mean you can't arrange for some friends to come back with you. O:> Therefore, questions 2 and 3 don't apply. O:> - --Beth, arcangel@io.com / archangel@sjgames.com In Nomine Line Editor http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 04:28:03 +0800 From: "Jeffery Watkins" Subject: Re: IN> INverse Superior- Michael, Demon King of War Brilliant! Magnificient! You've done it again! Gotta use this one somehow.... Perhaps, Bahurim, Belsaraph Demon Prince of Conflict? They might have been known as the three musketeers had such been known before the fall, for Michael, Baal and Bahurim were three mighty angels. Bahurim has been Baal's right hand until recently when he was rewarded with the word of Conflict from all of his good work getting mankind to war with his neighbor, or escalating it further than normal. The name once stood for choice; warlike; valiant and in his own eyes still does. Probably the Balseraph attunement would be different as Bahurim would not be as powerful as Michael King of Hell. The Djinn and Habbalah attunement are great and I admit, its the attunements that got me to thinking of adapting this. > Honorium: These demons can hear the sound of danger sweeping through their > personal symphony. Up to a minute in advance, these Warriors will know if > they are about to enter a conflict or have their lives endangered by a > direct assault. This a new band? I like them! What great scouts and point people. If a new band, what do they look like celestially? > Dark Lilim: Saviors of the battlefield, the Dark Lilim who serve Michael can > sense any physical combat happening within their Corporeal Forces in miles > where one or more parties are in need of a "winning edge". The Dark Lilim > may then rush to the battle, where she will recognize the losing party on > sight. She can then jump into the battle herself, and try to bring victory > to the losing side! When the battle ends, she can slap the winners for a > little favor... Niiice. Great person to have in charge of the reserves or a band of mercenaries sitting on the sidelines waiting for the right opportunity to strike...for a price. > Shedim: Michael's Fleshless can possess anyone who is in physical combat. > Because of these Shedim, there has been many tales of some warriors becoming > "possessed by the berserker spirit", suddenly striking with deadly accuracy > and strength. This is perfect! Had a situation where losing soldiers on the opponent's side made a deal and then two shedim possessed them. I can see where this attunement would have been very exciting. > > Impudite: The flames of conflict burn everywhere, and these Takers know what > it takes to fan them. An Impudite of War will know what, if anything, will > ignite a conflict between any two people they have met. Fantastic for the not wanted cease fires or when the peacetalks try to to work. All in all a great idea that I thank you for. *showers of essences to you* Apart from the purely inspirational aspects a well done version of a fallen Michael that wants to kill God and runs Hell in a very different manner than the current regime. Jeff =) Part of my insanity manifest at JCT, where In Nomine meets science fiction in the far future http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jctrinityRPG - -- __________________________________________________________ Download the FREE Opera browser at www.opera.com/download/ Free OperaMail at http://www.operamail.com/ Powered by Outblaze ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 16:35:23 -0400 From: "William J. Keith" Subject: RE: IN> Firemen Questions >her. In fact "The Marches" states that they are "nearly always attuned to >Gabriel", as well as mentioning that Yves isn't talking about why they are >so closely matched. I wasn't asking Yves, I was asking the list. My (personal) view of Yves, master of information and Archangel of Destiny, is that the only reasons he would refuse to answer a question is that the answer would be damaging to the asker, he doesn't know, or the asker wouldn't understand. In this case, since you asked me, I speculated that the particular reason would be "we wouldn't understand," which would perhaps translate in-game to Aluriel and Mordekial referring all questions to Yves (who kept mum) rather than trying to explain. If it was as simple as "they work together better this way," Yves probably would have said so. If you were asking the writers' reasons, well, the writers would have to answer it. >Where does it state they have the Ofanite Resonance? It implies the >Malakite Resonance in the fact that they have the Malakite Attunement for >Yves. No where did I see the Ofanite Resonance listed. My information comes from Gabriel's extended writeup in Superiors 3. Aluriel and Mordekial are not explicitly written up there as characters; however, the description does list their Master Distinction as providing the Ofanite Resonance. William ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 13:59:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> INverse Superior- Michael, Demon King of War - --- sirea@softhome.net wrote: > Otherwise, is Dark Michael a sound Superior? Seems OK to me. Judges? =====

Michael Walton, #US2002023848

"If you succeed, you will make some false friends and some true enemies. Succeed anyway." - -- Bishop David M. Copeland

__________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 17:01:55 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> INverse Superior- Michael, Demon King of War On Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 04:59 PM, Michael Walton wrote: > --- sirea@softhome.net wrote: >> Otherwise, is Dark Michael a sound Superior? > > Seems OK to me. Judges? > Absolutely! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 17:13:42 -0400 From: "Josh Moger" Subject: Re: IN> INverse Superior- Michael, Demon King of War >> --- sirea@softhome.net wrote: >>> Otherwise, is Dark Michael a sound Superior? >> >> Seems OK to me. Judges? >> > Aye, but I've something to add tomorrow, after completing my religion midterm allows me to once again process things of a nature both of God and of fun. It's a minor thing, but something that might help put some flesh on the personality of Michael. Josh ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 17:23:07 -0400 (EDT) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: RE: IN> Firemen Questions On Wed, 9 Oct 2002, Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW) wrote: > Jeez, you managed to figure that out after what, five messages now? Your questions have been answered well over five times (by at least five different people, by now), and you still haven't seemed to figure THAT out yet, so you should probably just call it even. :) > Now, since we all agree that two Cherubs with Ofanite Resonances can't keep > up with Gabriel unless she lets them keep up with her, perhaps you can > answer the question of why do we have two Cherubs doing a job that one could > do just as easily? This question has been answered several times, basically boiling down to two or three (slightly overlapping) good reasons, the main one being redundancy. I'd elaborate, but judging by your past responses, you'd just post a rude response and continue asking the same question as if no one had answered it... so I won't bother. - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian, Q4B4L! Meow! God does not play dice with the universe; He plays an ineffable game of his own devising, which might be compared, from the perspective of any of the other players (i.e., everybody), to being involved in an obscure and complex version of poker in a pitch-dark room, with blank cards, for infinite stakes, with a dealer who won't tell you the rules, and who smiles all the time. -- Gaiman/Pratchett (_Good Omens_) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 15:22:21 -0600 From: Cinnabari Subject: RE: IN> Firemen Questions Is there any particular reason you are snarking at everyone? People are answering your questions. You just don't like the answers. If there's one you would like, please feel free to include it in your next rant so we can all rush to agree with you. >And yes, my point exactly was NO CHOIR CAN KEEP UP WITH AN AA THAT DOESN'T >WANT TO BE CAUGHT. > >Jeez, you managed to figure that out after what, five messages now? > > Cherubim, even if they cannot keep up with Gabriel, will bloody well know where she is, at least. Ofanim will not, nor will Malakim, nor any other Choir... and they haven't got the ability to track her, either. >So, since you can't keep up with her if she doesn't want to let you, why are >you only focused on trying to keep up with her? Seems kind'a stupid to me. > > They are focused on WHERE SHE IS. Useful. On the other hand... can a lesser angel attune to a Superior successfully? Can a Superior trash any other non-Superior angels resonance? Because if *that* were true, the Firemen would be useless, whatever their choir. > >Now, since we all agree that two Cherubs with Ofanite Resonances can't keep >up with Gabriel unless she lets them keep up with her, perhaps you can >answer the question of why do we have two Cherubs doing a job that one could >do just as easily? > > Redundancy. Planning for failure? No. Being smart, because keeping tabs on Gabby is the Most Important Thing here. Because accidents happen. Because losing your Gabby-tracker is, apparently, something Yves does NOT want to happen, for whatever reason, sp he's put two out there. Because, as Eric pointed out before you pissed him off, Cherubim are meant to be Guardians. That's what they *do.* Change it in your game if you want. Sheesh. - -Kat - -- Obsequium parit amicos; veritas parit odium. - Cicero (Compliance produces friends; truth produces hate.) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 15:28:36 -0600 From: sirea@softhome.net Subject: Re: IN> INverse Superior- Michael, Demon King of War > Brilliant! Magnificient! You've done it again! Gotta use this one somehow.... Woah, easy there Jeff ^^; I think it's good, but not -that- good. > > Perhaps, Bahurim, Belsaraph Demon Prince of Conflict? They might have been known as the three musketeers had such been known before the fall, for Michael, Baal and Bahurim were three mighty angels. You can have a DP of Pride or Hubris, and Conflict also works. Micahel's Word in celestial is threefold unfortunately, adapting conflic, personal pride, darkness and corruption. In an odd sense, the Word of Michael is "Michael", or at least his name in Infernal tounge. It's what he was called when he openly defied God by the Metatron. the Balseraph attunement would be different as Bahurim would not be as powerful as Michael King of Hell. Well, Michael is powerful... just change some of the attunements and dissonance, and your in business ^_^ > > The Djinn and Habbalah attunement are great and I admit, its the attunements that got me to thinking of adapting this. > > >> Honorium: > This a new band? I like them! What great scouts and point people. If a new band, what do they look like celestially? Ah, my apologies, Honorium are my Fallen Malakim. I may post the revised version to the list, and I'll send it to the Collection the next update ^^ they're an optional Band for INverse- as such, I have to make two write ups for my Uriel, David and Laurence. Uriel the Balseraph/Honorite, David the Djinn/Honorite, and Laurence the Impudite/Honorite. > Niiice. Great person to have in charge of the reserves or a band of mercenaries sitting on the sidelines waiting for the right opportunity to strike...for a price. Kinda... I got inspiration from an episode of Samurai Jack I saw when sitting my little brother. > This is perfect! Had a situation where losing soldiers on the opponent's side made a deal and then two shedim possessed them. I can see where this attunement would have been very exciting. Well, except when the warrior tunred on his own companions during battle and began to slaughter -them- :D > >> >> Impudite > > Fantastic for the not wanted cease fires or when the peacetalks try to to work. > > All in all a great idea that I thank you for. *showers of essences to you* > > Apart from the purely inspirational aspects a well done version of a fallen Michael that wants to kill God and runs Hell in a very different manner than the current regime. Heh, thanks. Hope you can adapt him well. I may add more attunements depending on his expanded ones in Superiors 1 actually. --- Sirea, Free Cherub IST Destiny, Angel who Wanders, petitioner for the Word of Eternity ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 15:31:49 -0600 From: sirea@softhome.net Subject: Re: IN> INverse Superior- Michael, Demon King of War >>>> Otherwise, is Dark Michael a sound Superior? >>> >>> Seems OK to me. Judges? >>> >> > Aye, but I've something to add tomorrow, after completing my religion > midterm allows me to once again process things of a nature both of God and > of fun. > > It's a minor thing, but something that might help put some flesh on the > personality of Michael. > Ooo. I look forward to it... I still have a lot of fleshing out of Michael to do personality wise. I -really- want to come up with a believable and interesting reason for why he Fell, instead of making him a Lucifer carbon-copy, in terms of reasons. My best reason so far was that his feelings for being Firstborn overrode his like of mankind, and got the better of him... and as I said, unlike Lucifer, he commands the Horde with a strict hand (note his first dissonance condition) and isn't playing a game. He'd be -so- dissapointed in canon Lucifer ;D --- Sirea, Free Cherub IST Destiny, Angel who Wanders, petitioner for the Word of Eternity ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 14:40:57 -0700 From: Kish Subject: Re: IN> Firemen Questions Cinnabari wrote: > > On the other hand... can a lesser angel attune to a Superior > successfully? Can a Superior trash any other non-Superior angels > resonance? Because if *that* were true, the Firemen would be useless, > whatever their choir. Gabriel's insane, not malevolent. I don't get the impression Yves is worried about her making a focused effort to ditch the Firemen. If she goes off and does something that needs to be stopped, it will be because she's not thinking coherently, so she's unlikely to pause to shake off their attunements. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 15:49:40 -0600 From: "Steven E. Ehrbar" Subject: Re: IN> An appropriate punishment? Michael Walton wrote: >--- Ryan M Roth wrote: > > >>>The fusion research community has given up on trying to >>> >>> >>build large >>reactors for now, because they are too expensive, and >>there are still some >>issues that need to be resolved. The research has moved >>(is moving) from >>a scientific focus of trying to understand what works, to >>an engineering >>focus of trying to get things to work profitably. >> >> > > IOW, they still don't break even yet. > "Break-even" is a term of art when dealing with fusion, and by the definition of the term (the point where external heating energy is exceeded by fusion-produced energy), we've had break-even since the JET experiment five years ago. What we don't have is a reactor where the *useful* energy output is greater than the *useful* energy input, which will require energy production three-plus times higher than the technical "break-even" point. Even then, a commercially useful reactor would require even more efficiency. - -- Steven E. Ehrbar ehrbar@softhome.net stevenehrbar@elp.rr.com We have to go forth and crush every world view that doesn't believe in tolerance and free speech. - David Brin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 15:24:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> An appropriate punishment? - --- "Steven E. Ehrbar" wrote: > What we don't have is a reactor where the > *useful* energy output is greater than the *useful* > energy input, which > will require energy production three-plus times higher > than the > technical "break-even" point. Even then, a commercially > useful reactor would require even more efficiency. Aha. Thanks for the clarification. =====

Michael Walton, #US2002023848

"If you succeed, you will make some false friends and some true enemies. Succeed anyway." - -- Bishop David M. Copeland

__________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 19:37:18 -0400 From: BC Petery Subject: IN> word reach > the Word of a Brand of Pop (or, in some places, any brown fizzy beverage!) > > the casual form of the Word of Cocaine. Coca-Cola used to have cocaine in the formula. The Demon of Cocaine must have taken quite a few Word hits when the formula changed. Documents from the time indicate that Coca-Cola drinkers weren't too happy about it either. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 19:37:15 -0400 From: BC Petery Subject: IN> Faith (from: The Glory of Islam) About faith and science. One must believe that the laws of physics are immutable or the basis of science, the repeatable experiment, is rendered null. There are people who place this much belief in things they don't understand, such as Bigfoot or an unseen world of angels. The Truth Is Out There. =;) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 17:28:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Jim Burzelic Subject: Re: IN> word reach (was Re: IN> Word-bound reliever) > Er, that's Word-promotion, and all fine. The thing > is > that the Word of Coke (written the same way in > English) > could be: > > the Word of Certain Petroleum Byproducts Called Coke > In English > > the Word of a Brand of Pop (or, in some places, any > brown fizzy beverage!) > > the casual form of the Word of Cocaine. > > Those three definitions are so broad as to not > overlap; all three > could be held without Word-friction. > Now, if you're going to have someone "steal" an old > Word, you'll need > Lucifer to re-grant that Word, and all the > Word-friction that encompasses. > You might want to acquire the Game Master's Guide, > which has a chapter on > Words... O:> > > > --Beth, arcangel@io.com / archangel@sjgames.com In > Nomine Line Editor > http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ I'll do that, soon as I get my moenyless hands on Liber Reliquarum. So, Having a Demon of Ether(drug) and Demon of Ether(old concept for space) would be two separate demons without any problems? I was hoping to have a servant of the Demon of Ether(drugs) see the possiblity in the word just being wholly ignored for several reasons unbeknownst to him, who then runs around and gets the word for himself. He then starts getting humans to call space, ether once again. He grows in power, eventually enough to start pushing in towards Beleth's territory. He would still maintain the drug aspect but wouldn't really pay attention to it. He may even approach the idea of ether as air. Either way he'd become a force against Beleth and Jean mostly and would be my demon prince for expansion into space, and then the Marches(as the cosmology I'm using has the Ethereal plane melt into corporeal space. Yes, that means my humans can possibly corporeally fly to heaven or hell this way). And just to clarify, the above would not work canonically? Jim __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 20:20:44 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Firemen Questions From: "Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW)" > > AA Beth also pointed out that one might die, and the other could still keep > tabs on her. I still think that is planning for failure. Does the ship you serve on not have a backup power plant, in case the main one fails? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 19:32:59 -0600 From: Julian Mensch Subject: RE: IN> Firemen Questions > Gabriel's insane, not malevolent. I think this depends a lot on contrast and interpretation. She's intent on punishing something as nebulous as cruelty, and she doesn't seem to have any kind of appeal, due process or simple rationality in doing so. Let's face it, as soon as you step out of "Catharic revenge fantasy world", she starts looking pretty malevolent, pretty quickly. We've _all_ been cruel at one time or another, often for fairly good reasons. I'm not saying she _is_ malevolant, mind -- just that it's certainly not strict canon that she's _not_, unless anyone can provide contradictory referances. I'll agree she likely wouldn't ditch the Firemen, though, _unless_ they try to stop her from doing things she wants to do. - -- Julian Mensch ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 20:17:15 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Faith (from: The Glory of Islam) BC Petery wrote: > About faith and science. One must believe that the laws of physics are > immutable or the basis of science, the repeatable experiment, is rendered > null. One must believe that the laws of physics are immutable in order for them to make sense, but one doesn't have to believe that our understanding of physics is perfect. IOW, if tomorrow Earth's gravity suddenly decreased by 10%, it wouldn't necessarily mean that gravity doesn't obey natural laws after all -- it might mean that we just discovered a hitherto unknown scientific phenomenon and will have to adjust our understanding accordingly. Which is why Faith and science are incompatible. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 22:23:51 -0400 From: "William J. Keith" Subject: RE: IN> Firemen Questions >She's intent on punishing something as nebulous as cruelty, >and she doesn't seem to have any kind of appeal, due process >or simple rationality in doing so. Let's face it, as soon as Well, it's not that Gabriel points her Servitor to someone and says, "this person is cruel, go smite"; she gives a Servitor the ability to read the Symphony for traces of cruelty in a person. Admittedly, this might be Gabriel's definition of cruelty -- but I would say that there's no more appeal needed than there is further investigation if someone swears "I'm innocent" and a Seraph of Judgment reads this True, or doublechecking someone's recent financial past after a Mercurian of Marc has vetted him. There is possibility of error, yes -- but mostly on the part of the angel in acting on this information. After all, even if Gabriel were personally filtering the ability, when the chain of information goes You-Gabriel-God, you tend to trust your intelligence data. ;^) William (The NPC Soldier of Stone in my campaign was a teenager who thought the chain of command was the coolest thing about his job. He regarded his chain as Him-HisNPCBoss-Philadelphia-Salem-David-Laurence-God, and Kevin Bacon eat your heart out, you know? %^) ) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 10:49:30 +0800 From: "Janet Anderson" Subject: RE: IN> Firemen Questions > Gabriel's insane, not malevolent. > > I think this depends a lot on contrast and interpretation. > She's intent on punishing something as nebulous as cruelty, > and she doesn't seem to have any kind of appeal, due process > or simple rationality in doing so. Let's face it, as soon as > you step out of "Catharic revenge fantasy world", she starts > looking pretty malevolent, pretty quickly. We've _all_ been > cruel at one time or another, often for fairly good reasons. There are several flaws in this argument in my opinion. If you read the things Gabriel's servitors are supposed to identify and punish, they seem to be not random actions (like the thoughtless cruelty of children) or occasional actions (like kicking the dog when you come home after a really bad day, or saying nasty things to your spouse while you're having a fight) but established patterns of behavior, which over time and with repetition affect a human soul until the presence of such a pattern can be detected by the appropriate angel. As for the lack of appeal, well, that *is* a canon problem -- Dominic and Gabriel used to work together, so that Dominic could assure that none of Gabriel's punishments were unjustly severe. Now they don't. This may or may not make much difference, but it does say (in Superiors 3, I think) that Gabriel's servitors like to brag to Dominicans about the punishments they've inflicted, which wouldn't make much sense unless they were doing something the Dominicans wouldn't like. On the third hand, if they do this (and the unjust punishments) long enough, they may be on their way to becoming the kind of person they're supposed to punish ... perhaps it's not only Malakim that are good at policing their own ranks. Or who have their own "He's Gone Bad" squads. Janet Anderson - -- _______________________________________________ Get your free email from http://www.graffiti.net Powered by Outblaze ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 21:54:57 -0600 From: Brian Westcott Subject: IN> Questions about Litheroy and Songs I have some questions for the group that I would love to get some answers on: 1.I just found out about Litheroy: Archangel of Revelations. Is he in the official canon and are his stats listed in any of the books or any upcoming books? I found him mentioned in Revelations #5: The Final Trumpet. 2.Is there a Song where you can actually teleport or travel physically from one dimension to another, for example, travel physically from the Corporeal realm to the Ethereal one and back? I don't want my character to be able to travel to the Celestial realm yet. The Celestial version of Motion deals with teleportation in the Corporeal realm. The problem I have with Projection is that it only deals with a Celestial image and not a vessel, so to speak. Any help on this would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! Brian Westcott Meridian, Idaho brian@brianrich.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 20:56:42 -0700 From: Vaughn Romero Subject: IN> And the Stars Shined On (a variation on a theme) "This is a song Charles Manson stole from the Beatles. We're stealing it back..." Here is my addition to the on going story of Michael & Novalis, their child Gog, and the world in his wake. I offer it as a variation on a theme, rather than a straight addition to the Eric A. Burns canon. Inspiration comes from the fact that the more I thought about Gog, the more I realized he was the bad guy I've been waiting for. He's just too cool not to steal. Sigh, now if only I wrote as well as Eric. Well, the only way to get there is to write, write, write. Thanks for bearing with me. Miss part of the story? See: 1. "The Event" by Josh Moger 2. "Comes the Night, Comes the Terrible Dawn" by Whistling in the Dark a.k.a Eric A. Burns 3. "Where the Darkness Knows No Dawn" also by Eric A. Burns 4. "[DAWN] And the Day Grows Harsh In Light" also by Eric A. Burns * * * AND THE STARS SHINED ON "This cannot be." The angel looked out over the desolate landscape searching for anything that might have been spared. As far as he could see, the view was the same: an expanse of cracks and fissures choked with a fine pale dust. No mark of what had been remained. The mountains leveled, the oceans drained, the air suffocated by the cold, no trace of life. The earth that he had helped create was dead. Not even the distant lights of hope remained. The darkness had devoured all in its terrible hunger. "I shall not let this happen." "It will happen. The instrument of its making is already in motion." The voice in his mind laughed in satisfaction. He could not see the intruder, but he did not need to. The stench of its vile soul told him it was close by, yet just out of reach. "He will kill you. You are no longer a part of his plans." He drew closer to the presence, and was surprised it did not move. "He will not. Not even to escape his Fate." He could see him now. The demon was looking out over the wasteland with a confident smirk on his face. "The others will not submit. They will not forsake their kingdom." He stood beside the demon and looked out at the desolation. "The others have no power to resist his will. They will fall to him as Michael fell." "Michael did not Fall." "That hardly matters now. Michael has no power to stand against his son, and is thus of no importance anymore." "And am I of importance anymore?" He felt his power growing within him. "You have played your part very well in this matter - although it took you much longer than I anticipated." "I do not serve you, demon." "You have served me more ably than all the demons in Hell. All that remains now is to see how you will accept your defeat." "I will never surrender." "Then you will die along with the rest. Your defeat is as inevitable now as it has always been." "It was unwise of you to come here. I have no reason to tolerate you any longer." A bright light encompassed his hands. The demon laughed. "My death would be worth seeing your Fate. I can almost imagine the look on your face when your beloved jester replaces me. Honestly, he was so good at the job, I do not know why you took it away from him in the first place." The angel stayed his hand. This was an old dilemma - one for which he had never found an acceptable solution. "Someday you will not be able to hide behind him." "Your time is running out, coward. In fact, I estimate you have mere minutes to make your move before Gog arrives to settle some matters." "I should have killed you when I first met you..." "Choices, such difficult choices, whatever shall you do?" The demon turned to face him. "I expect you will do what you also do - let love weaken you. All this could have gone so much differently if you had cooperated from the beginning." "I have cooperated more than enough as it is." "You could have been so much more. You could have taken your rightful place as the leader of the host. You could have led the battle against the beast you knew would come." "I could have been waiting in the darkness for my brother to destroy me..." The angel looked down in shame. The glow from his hand faded into blackness. "Yes. That was how it should have been, but you chose to resist your Fate. You chose to coddle he who should have been God." "No one is like God," the angel said softly. "Not anymore." The angel could not locate the origin of the voice, but there was no mistaking its owner. "Gog." The demon bowed to a deeper shadow among the blackness. The shadow coalesced into a tall powerful man. Not a man, a Grigori. The Grigori stepped up to the angel and smiled. "I see the rumors are true," said the angel. "The most holy have had their chance, now it is time for the least holy to rise and take their place." Gog's voice carried a power that the angel had heard only one other time before. "You choose to be the vessel?" the angel looked at Gog with a great sadness in his eyes. "I choose to be on the winning side." Gog stepped closer to loom over the angel. "I believe you have something of mine." "This?" the angel said indicating the dead lands with a sweeping hand. "And your soul." Gog placed one hand on the angel's shoulder and the other on the angel's wings. "Now you become one with the evil you have wrought." Blackness enveloped the two celestials. Rising from his bow, the demon stood silently and waited for his master to finish his work. He could not pierce the shadow, but he knew what to expect. This was all going so much better than he had planned... "I do not fear you" came the angel's voice from the impenetrable murk. "You are your mother's child as well as your father's. All of his power cannot be unleashed until her peace has been broken." "I will destroy you all!" howled Gog, "See the future that awaits the earth before you. All that is will be united inside of me! Creation is mine for the taking. Do you think that you can oppose me?" The silence deepened. Had there been light to see it, the demon's frown would have revealed his doubt. From the gloom came the sound of laughter. "Who can fight God?" it was the angel's voice bright with mirth. "The old man was right. Who can fight God? No one. So do not fight him." More laughter came from the gloom. "That is why there is still stone here. You could not get him to strike the first blow. The stubborn rock refused to fight!" "How does he know this?!" Gog's voice cut through the laughter making the demon jump. "You assured me he would suffer no evil to live!" "My nemesis continues the battle in vain, my Lord." The demon stared back at Gog with the look of a deluded believer. "It does not matter. The host will never accept him. He has fallen too deeply into darkness. They will destroy him for us." "I cannot take that chance. Finish him." Gog's voice boomed with such an undeniable authority that the demon was moving before he even knew what he was doing. Striking into the darkness in front of his master he found nothing but empty space. "No!" came Gog's cry of wrath. In its wake was the undeniable sound of the Song of Motion, and one glowing black feather. * * * Vaughn Romero Technically, a Writer ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2811 ********************************