in_nomine-digest Thursday, October 10 2002 Volume 01 : Number 2812 In this digest: Re: IN> Questions about Litheroy and Songs Re: IN> Firemen Questions Re: IN> And the Stars Shined On (a variation on a theme) IN> Higher Heavens & Lower Hells RE: IN> Firemen Questions RE: IN> Firemen Questions RE: IN> Firemen Questions Re: IN> Firemen Questions RE: IN> Firemen Questions Re: IN> Firemen Questions Re: IN> Firemen Questions RE: IN> Firemen Questions RE: IN> Firemen Questions RE: IN> Firemen Questions RE: IN> Firemen Questions for the Reverend RE: IN> Questions about Litheroy and Songs RE: IN> Firemen Questions RE: IN> Firemen Questions RE: IN> Firemen Questions RE: IN> Firemen Questions ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 23:59:01 -0400 From: "Josh Moger" Subject: Re: IN> Questions about Litheroy and Songs > >1.I just found out about Litheroy: Archangel of Revelations. Is he in >the official canon and are his stats listed in any of the books or any >upcoming books? I found him mentioned in Revelations #5: The Final >Trumpet. Yes. Litheroy is Canon, but he's a minor Superior as in the same way that Zadkiel is. Josh ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 22:03:48 -0600 From: "Steven E. Ehrbar" Subject: Re: IN> Firemen Questions Janet Anderson wrote: >On the third hand, if they do this (and the unjust punishments) long enough, they may be on their way to becoming the kind of person they're supposed to punish > Gabe's Seraphim detect those "who lie to themselves about what monsters they really are". So self-justifying angels who slip into cruelty would get noticed by the first Seraph of Fire to whom they talk. Now, it's of course possible for an angel to not lie to himself, to know he's going too far in punishing cruelty. Which, to me, would constitute a betrayal of Gabriel -- and thus get picked up by a Cherub of Fire. Even if *that* didn't uncover them, in any non-dark game it seems likely there's Malakim of Fire tasked to hunt those who are cruel by being excessive in punishment, and they'd pick up on it. Finally, Dominic's keeping an eye on Gabriel's servitors, and would surely try them for heresy if they seems to be acting with cruelty in Gabriel's name. Gabriel herself, driven by the pain and the Word-grating of Belial, might go overboard and manifest aspects of Infernal Fire if she isn't careful. Her angels, however, would seem to be adequately checked. - -- Steven E. Ehrbar ehrbar@softhome.net stevenehrbar@elp.rr.com We have to go forth and crush every world view that doesn't believe in tolerance and free speech. - David Brin ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 00:06:31 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> And the Stars Shined On (a variation on a theme) Yay! He's spreading! Nice story. A slightly variant Gog, but a fun one nonetheless. (Wow. Josh's seed bears fruit yet again!) - -- Eric A. Burns Freelance Writer and Textual Whore http://www.annotations.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 21:37:24 -0700 From: Vaughn Romero Subject: IN> Higher Heavens & Lower Hells I had a thought about what the Higher Heavens and Lower Hells are: they could represent what the Earth (or universe) would be like if God/The Symphony achieved either its Destiny or its Fate. Another way to think of it is that they are a vision of Heaven on Earth and Hell on Earth. The fact that Lucifer and Kronos can visit the Lower Hells and the angels cannot visit the Higher Heavens may have to do with the universal tally between Destiny and Fate. However, I can see the tally working both ways: do you see the vision of on Earth when you are on track or off track? Dunno. Maybe they don't know either. Anyhow, I used this kooky idea in my "And the Stars Shined On" fiction piece to give it a test run. Unsaid in the piece is that the broken Earth that our unnamed angel sees is the Fate view from the Lower Hells. How far ahead is the view of things you may ask? Well, in this case, it's pretty near to the action, but I imagine for most of existence it has seemed more murky or far off. How one tells these things I leave to your imagination. In any case, I enjoy the idea of our favorite adversary constantly checking the Lower Hells to literally monitor the Fate of the world. As for the Higher Heavens, I imagine the world as it is supposed to be - the Heaven that has things like lions and lambs lying together. Perhaps the reason that the Higher Heavens are closed off is that the angels would have nothing to strive for if they could just retreat upstairs to perfection when things got tough. Why work for Heaven on Earth when you already have it? Of course, why would humanity get to slack off in the Higher Heavens while the angels do all the work? I'll have to think on that one. I fear I may have to retreat into heretical doubt and uncertainty. Comments and suggestions are welcome. Vaughn Romero Technically, a writer ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 07:42:04 +0300 From: "Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW)" Subject: RE: IN> Firemen Questions - -----Original Message----- From: Cinnabari [mailto:darkelf@ecentral.com] Is there any particular reason you are snarking at everyone? People are answering your questions. You just don't like the answers. If there's one you would like, please feel free to include it in your next rant so we can all rush to agree with you. DS1 No. Nobody was answering the question I asked, they were repeating my question as a statement and saying that it was an answer. And then turning smug about it. I require no one to agree to something I said, but I get highly annoyed when someone doesn't read my question and then turns smarmy about answering things I didn't ask by using my own words. Why do you even ask this? Do you like people to agree with you when your wrong? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 07:46:36 +0300 From: "Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW)" Subject: RE: IN> Firemen Questions - -----Original Message----- From: Cinnabari [mailto:darkelf@ecentral.com] Cherubim, even if they cannot keep up with Gabriel, will bloody well know where she is, at least. Ofanim will not, nor will Malakim, nor any other Choir... and they haven't got the ability to track her, either. DS1 Which I pointed out myself in the first or second round of all this. So you only need one Cherub and a pair of cell phones. And this is still only if Gabriel wants because I am quite sure if an AA doesn't want to be followed they can disconnect any Cherub Attunements. And, even if this is not the case, one Cherub can keep track of her, so WHY HAVE TWO? See, it's been several days of this and you still don't seem able to read the question I ask. The only answer I have received so far is "because one might get killed" which I find simplistic and unreasonably paranoid. Or just "planning for failure" which is unconscionably foolish. But at least it was an answer to the question I asked. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 07:58:59 +0300 From: "Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW)" Subject: RE: IN> Firemen Questions - -----Original Message----- From: Cinnabari [mailto:darkelf@ecentral.com] > > Redundancy. Planning for failure? No. Being smart, because keeping tabs on Gabby is the Most Important Thing here. Because accidents happen. Because losing your Gabby-tracker is, apparently, something Yves does NOT want to happen, for whatever reason, sp he's put two out there. Because, as Eric pointed out before you pissed him off, Cherubim are meant to be Guardians. That's what they *do.* Change it in your game if you want. Sheesh. - -Kat Obsequium parit amicos; veritas parit odium. - Cicero (Compliance produces friends; truth produces hate.) DS1 I disagree. As you pointed out yourself, Gabby can just choose to not let them attune to her, so Gabby tracking suddenly doesn't seem as important because it only happens if she allows. Relying solely on one means of helping Gabby keep from harming herself or others is too important to leave resting on the hope she doesn't get pissed off and end the connection. I'd think you'd have someone with Dreamwalking Songs so if Gabby bails out and goes into hiding you can start searching for her by looking for people dreaming about fire. And that's just off the top of my head, if I ever did sit down and really work this out, I'm sure there are other useful skills, talents or songs that could help find her for those times when she really wants to pull a Greta Garbo. Approaching her during that time is another story entirely. I'd change it in a game in a heartbeat if I could find players. All angels are guardians in one level or another. Gabriel's guardians shouldn't be treated as a cute pair of twins with matching Songs, Skills and haircuts. Eric wants to get pissed off because I don't let him toss off smarmy replies to questions I didn't ask, then that's his problem. Let him grow up. Coming back two or three messages after I asked "does a later supplement than "The Marches" explain any of this doesn't absolve him of anything. If he'd said that in his first round of smart mouthed remarks, this probably would have ended there. And as to your quote, seems to me I must be throwing out a lot of truth then. Wish you could take it without getting pissed off yourself. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 00:16:20 -0500 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> Firemen Questions - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW)" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 11:58 PM Subject: RE: IN> Firemen Questions > I disagree. As you pointed out yourself, Gabby can just choose to not let > them attune to her, so Gabby tracking suddenly doesn't seem as important > because it only happens if she allows. But if Gabby acts to cut the tracking, that *itself* is an extremely important piece of information -- it means that she's Up To Something. And then Firemen invoke Yves -- remember, they have a special invocation modifier that lets them summon him pretty much whenever the heck they want to. And *he* goes looking for Gabriel... and Yves *will* find her. The Firemen are sentries. Lookouts. Forward pickets. They don't /have/ to be big enough to handle the problem themselves... they just have to be in a position to call it away, at which point the response team takes over. And their "response team" is the Archangel of Destiny, capable of handling pretty much anything... and what he can't handle, he can call his Allieds and Associateds in to help him handle. Gabriel can evade and escape the Firemen any time she wants to. She just can't do it without the very act of her doing so itself being enough of a warning sign to make the Firemen call it away. Their job is to spare the Archangel of Destiny from having to continuously multi-task a piece of his own consciousness keeping an eye on Gabriel 24-and-7... and *that's it*. In her current state, Gabriel doesn't *want* to shake the Firemen off her trail. And if that state changes -- well, that contingency's listed on their damage control bill. > Relying solely on one means of helping Gabby keep from harming herself or > others is too important to leave resting on the hope she doesn't get pissed off > and end the connection. I'd think you'd have someone with Dreamwalking > Songs so if Gabby bails out and goes into hiding you can start searching for > her by looking for people dreaming about fire. Assuming that one-third of the world is asleep at any one time, that's two billion or so potential dreamscapes to check out. Where do you suggest they start? [snip] > And as to your quote, seems to me I must be throwing out a lot of truth > then. Wish you could take it without getting pissed off yourself. Beth, please forgive me, but all other approaches by the gentler and kinder folk than I having failed. I'm going to try getting the message through his head with the sledgehammer. Petty Officer Bergeron, you mentioned that you were posting from onboard ship while it was under way. From this, I deduce that you're working long hours with little sleep, and have been for some time. I was in the Navy myself, I know how much fun steaming watches aren't and how cranky exhaustion can make one. I have a postgraduate-level education in exactly what prolonged exhaustion and stress does to one behavior, perceptions, and judgement. *Lighten the hell up*. You are not (despite whatever distorted perception chronic sleep deprivation and stress may have given you) possessed of wisdom beyond all other listmembers and suffering the jealous sniping of your inferiors therefrom. What you are is a guy who's got a damn bug in his brain about something that doesn't really mean anything at all, and getting downright petty and abusive when other people try to point that out to you. If you want everybody to agree with everything you say, you're on the wrong list. I used to make the same mistakes you're making here. Sometimes, I still do. Learn from my own errors and not your own. And *put a Lucifer-be-damned sock in it*. - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 08:34:28 +0300 From: "Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW)" Subject: RE: IN> Firemen Questions - -----Original Message----- From: Cameron McCurry [mailto:cmccurry@earthlink.net] "Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW)" said unto us: > Jeez, you managed to figure that out after what, five messages now? Actually, I had that figured out before your question. And I have also figured out that you are not interested in any answers that people give you. You are much more focused on impressing us with your skill in arguing and trolling. However... DS1 No, I just have no interest in posturing, and little patience for it. What I had hoped for was intelligent debate on reasons why two Cherubs were required, or perhaps some examples of alternates on the theme of Firemen. What I got was people who chose to posture and misquote me without reading correctly what I was saying. The only messages that actually addressed the issue replied that it was in case one of them dies. My answer to that was it seemed a "doomed to failure" style of looking at the issue. Instead of replying in an intelligent fashion, you choose to say "no it's not" and then go on back to insulting, childish posturing. From: Cameron McCurry [mailto:cmccurry@earthlink.net] In the meantime, I am simply filing you under "Ignore" DS1 Why, thank you so much for proving my point as to your ability to handle a grown up discussion. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 23:53:52 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Firemen Questions Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW) wrote: > I disagree. Good for you. Now stop complaining that there are no explanations for why Gabriel's guardians are Cherubim. There are several (I can think of a couple that haven't been mentioned yet), you just don't like them. Can you accept the fact that your viewpoint is not necessarily objective reality and something that everyone else must adopt, or are you waging some kind of crusade to prove to the rest of the list that your personal notions of the IN universe must be accepted by all or the time-space continuum will collapse into a singularity the size of Tom Green's talent? We get those about twice a year (the rants, I mean, not the collapsing into Tom Green-talent-sized singularities), and I haven't sharpened my long knives in quite a while.... - -Edelstein, David C., XYZ(PDQ) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 02:14:50 -0400 (EDT) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: IN> Firemen Questions On Thu, 10 Oct 2002, Charles Glasgow wrote: > Beth, please forgive me, but all other approaches by the gentler and kinder > folk than I having failed. I'm going to try getting the message through his > head with the sledgehammer. Don't feel too bad - I think we've all lost a little bit of our patience trying to get through to this guy. I'm actually starting to envision a literal brick wall when I see his name. In my opinion, your reply here got ruder than necessary near the end, but I can't particularly blame you... :) - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian, Q4B4L! Meow! "When you're alive you gotta SHOUT, and MAKE A LOT OF NOISE or WHATEVER, 'cause when you're dead, you SHUT UP LIKE HELL!" -- St. Jeroen Van Braam ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 09:27:29 +0300 From: "Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW)" Subject: RE: IN> Firemen Questions - - From: "Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW)" > > AA Beth also pointed out that one might die, and the other could still keep > tabs on her. I still think that is planning for failure. - ----Original Message----- From: Prodigal [mailto:res0axj6@verizon.net] Does the ship you serve on not have a backup power plant, in case the main one fails? DS1 Why, yes it does. Well, technically, it's got two power plants, one for each propeller, but they can be set up to either work in tandem, giving the best speed and highest amount of power for doing things like powering the motors to turn the main guns, each of which weighs more than most condos, while keeping us at "best speed" so we don't get shot. Or they can run both props off of one power plant if we have a casualty. But you weren't really interested in the ship, you just wanted to be a smart aleck. Do you have two legs? If you want to continue to play smart ass word games, I've got a couple of hours on watch here, so go right ahead. I'd rather discuss things like an adult, so here's an attempt to make something useful of your question. My ship is just one of a couple hundred ships in the Navy, doing jobs that are required. In fact, as part of the ongoing (ten years or so) embargo against Iraq, we are often called upon to follow a tanker around the Gulf or the Med in order to see what it's up to and where it is going. Much like a Cherub's attunement, our RADAR tracks them and we trail along behind, just close enough to keep tabs, just far away enough to not cause a diplomatic incident. My entire ship is a limited resource, and putting another Destroyer alongside of us, following the same ship, doing the exact same thing with the exact same capabilities would be wasteful. In a war, sending two Destroyers on the same job would be criminally stupid. My Destroyer ship, which excels at subsurface warfare but is not as capable in air warfare, would be matched with a Carrier, which has excellent air to air capacities. That's what is called allocation of resources. Or, when you send four or five Missile Frigates to flatten a country without antimissile capabilities, it's called overkill, but I think we can all agree that the Firemen are in no way ever going to be considered "overkill" in comparison to Gabriel. Yves has many angels in his service, but how many are trusted enough to be granted a Master's Distinction? This is another limited resource which he must consider how to deploy with the best possible results. He's got the advantage of being ineffe.. unscruta... He's a wise ass himself who never explains fully what his reasons are for anything. So why put two powerfully capable angels with totally duplication of powers doing a job that all their skills, songs, attunements and resonances are incapable of doing? Maybe the Firemen are not there to watch Gabriel as much as they are to watch for what she does. Maybe their purpose isn't to protect humans from collateral damage after all? They've got that advantage on calling Yves quicker than anyone.... There's something there I could work with much more easily than "we put you both here because chances are one of you is going to be blasted into a rapidly expanding cloud of former Forces". Sounds like Paranoia, not In Nomine. Maybe they are listening for prophecies. That I could see as something Yves would be interested enough in to risk tying up so much into one place. Gabriel's prophecies are the last full on connection with The Almighty. Metranon's gone, so if God has something really important to say, it just might come from Gabriel. How many times has the prophet in the wilderness been ignored to the peril of society? Yves seems determined to not ignore Gabriel. Or maybe it's about someone she inspires along her mad wanderings. Maybe the Firemen attune to the persons she talks with, hangs out and protects them from demonic influence, just long enough for one of Yves other servants to monitor the situation. They'd be apart more often, but it's not like Gabriel does a lot of talking with mankind these days, so maybe only once a decade which isn't really noticeable. Sure, other Choirs could perform the function as well, but no one would do it better than a Cherub. Or could it be something else? What other reasons for duplication of effort could their be, beyond we hope you don't die, but just in case we have your replacement clone right here. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 09:57:01 +0300 From: "Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW)" Subject: RE: IN> Firemen Questions - -----Original Message----- From: Wajenberg, Earl [mailto:ewajenberg@mc.com] My own hunch would be that they are cherubim because cherubim are natural guardians by both resonnance and temperament, and guarding is what they're doing here -- guarding the world from Gabriel and vice versa. There are two not just because of the chance of soul-death, because of the chance of the other being in Trauma, or, likeliest of all, because of the chance of a complicated, messy situation in which any one person would need help or need to be in more than one place at a time. No doubt more than two would be even more help, but one has to draw the line somewhere, and it got drawn at two. Earl DS1 All angels are guardians at some level, but you're right, it is more suited to Cherubs. I'd think a Mecurian would be better suited to the task of extricating humans from any mess that encountering Gabriel might cause. Or even in dealing with other Celestials, seeing as how Mecurians are the best diplomats. Trauma replacement makes more sense than Soul Death. Yves is probably pretty lenient with giving them another Vessel, but waiting while an angel recovers from Trauma is time consuming. Mind you, I would think a Superior could bring them around sooner, but it couldn't be healthy to do that very often. It is a dangerous job they are doing, though I still mislike the idea that they are counting on being bullet catchers. An Ofanite in a big Vessel would do that better. Or a Malakim, who didn't have to worry about Trauma issues. If they are simply combat heroes there to stop demons from annoying Gabby, or to rescue children from burning buildings, then either of those Choirs would be better suited, and with Yves Master Distinction, they could still pick up the Cherub Resonance and stay attuned to Gabby. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 10:10:14 +0300 From: "Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW)" Subject: RE: IN> Firemen Questions - --- "Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW)" wrote: > why do we have two Cherubs doing a job that one could > do just as easily? - -----Original Message----- From: Michael Walton [mailto:thunderdog_sa@yahoo.com] 1) Backup. If they run into a bad situation (whether it's Gabriel or someone else who starts it), there's a chance that one can report even if the other is taken down. DS1 Doesn't require a Cherub for that. - -----Original Message----- From: Michael Walton [mailto:thunderdog_sa@yahoo.com] One possibility: a direct confrontation between Gabriel and Belial. Belial wouldn't care about getting Gabby's attention -- he might even be counting on it -- but the collateral damage could be a danger to both Firemen. DS1 Any Celestial with a big Vessel could do as well. A Malakim in a big Vessel would even be able to come out of Trauma faster and explain the emergency. Give him the Cherub Resonance with his Master's Distinction and he's set to go back and pinpoint the danger zone. - -----Original Message----- From: Michael Walton [mailto:thunderdog_sa@yahoo.com] 2) Sanity Checks. Not in the Call of Cthulhu sense, but in the sense that the Firemen, despite their similarities, are still distinct individuals with different viewpoints. If trouble is brewing, one might notice something that the other misses. ===== DS1 Still not anything another Choir wouldn't be able to do as well. Better still, a different Choir with a Resonance that was perception based, ie Seraph - see truth, Elohim - see motives, etc... would give a larger perspective of what is going on. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 10:32:36 +0300 From: "Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW)" Subject: RE: IN> Firemen Questions for the Reverend On Wed, 9 Oct 2002, Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW) wrote: > Jeez, you managed to figure that out after what, five messages now? - -----Original Message----- From: Rev. Pee Kitty [mailto:pkitty@brainpuke.com] Your questions have been answered well over five times (by at least five different people, by now), and you still haven't seemed to figure THAT out yet, so you should probably just call it even. :) DS1 AA Beth and one other person, well after I posted the message where I said this, mentioned the fact that one of them might get Soul Killed. Which I responded to with a counter point of "seems like planning to fail" to which Beth has been silent about and I received rude answers from the rest of the crowd. Point out one instance, previous to that, where I received an answer that didn't amount to "dude, they are both Cherubs because they can both attune to him" and I will concede the point. Otherwise, you are joining the crowd who doesn't want to indulge in debate nearly as much as they want to make smart aleck comments and stir up flames. >DS1 > Now, since we all agree that two Cherubs with Ofanite Resonances can't keep > up with Gabriel unless she lets them keep up with her, perhaps you can > answer the question of why do we have two Cherubs doing a job that one could > do just as easily? This question has been answered several times, basically boiling down to two or three (slightly overlapping) good reasons, the main one being redundancy. I'd elaborate, but judging by your past responses, you'd just post a rude response and continue asking the same question as if no one had answered it... so I won't bother. DS1 Geez, there it is again, my question being turned into my "answer" and then a smart aleck remark on how I'm being difficult. Fine. Let's try using small words for you. I know both angels are Cherubs. I know both Cherubs can attune to Gabriel I know this is redundant. I want to know what is the reason for the redundant cherubs with redundant attunements and redundant skills and redundant stats and redundant songs and redundant resonances? Now, will you tell me the reason is that two or three basically same answers boil down to saying "they are there to be redundant" is the answer I am looking for again? I am asking the same question over and over again because you, and people like you, cannot seem to figure out the simple fact that I was not looking for my own comment of how redundant it seemed to be thrown back at me like some kind of answer to all secrets and have abuse heaped on me for it. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 10:37:13 +0300 From: "Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW)" Subject: RE: IN> Questions about Litheroy and Songs - -----Original Message----- From: Brian Westcott [mailto:brian@brianrich.net] I have some questions for the group that I would love to get some answers on: 1.I just found out about Litheroy: Archangel of Revelations. Is he in the official canon and are his stats listed in any of the books or any upcoming books? I found him mentioned in Revelations #5: The Final Trumpet. 2.Is there a Song where you can actually teleport or travel physically from one dimension to another, for example, travel physically from the Corporeal realm to the Ethereal one and back? I don't want my character to be able to travel to the Celestial realm yet. The Celestial version of Motion deals with teleportation in the Corporeal realm. The problem I have with Projection is that it only deals with a Celestial image and not a vessel, so to speak. Any help on this would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! Brian Westcott Meridian, Idaho brian@brianrich.net DS1 Lithroy is written up in the very playable adventure that comes with the GM screen. I think it might be out of print, but that might be a mistaken impression. I've used it at a couple of Cons and it seems to work very well with newcomers to IN. Given the proper consideration of Superiors, you can even have Angels and Demons working together on this one. Maybe I'm wrong but I thought any angel could return to their heart without needing a tether. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 10:44:59 +0300 From: "Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW)" Subject: RE: IN> Firemen Questions - -----Original Message----- From: Charles Glasgow [mailto:glasgowc1@attbi.com] Gabriel can evade and escape the Firemen any time she wants to. She just can't do it without the very act of her doing so itself being enough of a warning sign to make the Firemen call it away. Their job is to spare the Archangel of Destiny from having to continuously multi-task a piece of his own consciousness keeping an eye on Gabriel 24-and-7... and *that's it*. In her current state, Gabriel doesn't *want* to shake the Firemen off her trail. And if that state changes -- well, that contingency's listed on their damage control bill. DS1 All of which points out in glaring light how useless it is to have two Cherubs with matching abilities in every way be assigned the task. Having more options open to handle a greater range of situations would make them more capable of being able to contact Yves in the event of a true emergency. From: Charles Glasgow [mailto:glasgowc1@attbi.com] Assuming that one-third of the world is asleep at any one time, that's two billion or so potential dreamscapes to check out. Where do you suggest they start? DS1 People having dreams of flaming women talking to them might be a good place to start. They should be able to narrow it down to last known location of Gabriel and begin from there. At least it's a starting point better than walking the street and looking for melted spots along the way. From: Charles Glasgow [mailto:glasgowc1@attbi.com]. Beth, please forgive me, but all other approaches by the gentler and kinder folk than I having failed. I'm going to try getting the message through his head with the sledgehammer. DS1 The rest of his flame has no business in this forum. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 11:20:35 +0300 From: "Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW)" Subject: RE: IN> Firemen Questions On Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 12:10 PM, Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW) wrote: > No. My question was not what does a Cherub do. > > My question was why have two Cherubs instead of broadening the > capabilities > by making them of different choirs? > - -----Original Message----- From: Whistling in the Dark [mailto:in-sabre@annotations.com] H'okay. Let me be blunt then. Two Cherubim are used here, it seems to me, because they're being asked to do the thing CHERUBIM ARE USED FOR. Ofanim aren't good at focusing on one task to the exclusion of others -- that can be dissonant if they're not careful. Seraphim aren't meant to guard or track -- they're meant to divine truth from the Symphony. Malakim are the Holy Warriors - -- a Malakite would go insane not being able to go smite evil around himself because he's got to stay on-task and guard an off-her-nut Superior. There is a specific Choir of Angel designated by God and laid into the structure of the firmament of Heaven to be the Guardians, to be the Hunters, to be the Trackers and the Keepers. That's Cherubim. *That* is why two Cherubim are used here. DS1 Ofanium are incapalbe of anything resembling commitment? Isn't there an Ofanite so commited to delivernig messaegs that it got turned into a chariot? Tell me that Gabriel isn't going around finding evil to smite. Tell me again that a Malakim wouldn't have enough to do if he were assigned to follow her around. Unless the Malikim took an oath requiring him to smite a demon a day, I see no reason why he couldn't do this job as well as any other Angel. Or are there no Malakim in heaven? Not a lot of evil to smite there, but there are Malakim who have spent centuries in Heaven without a trip to earth. Do they have problems? Are they insane? Seraphs, I will grant, don't seem to be the best companions for this sort of duty. I think a lot of Gabby Duty would be lying to human athourites about how that fire got started. Seraphs are gonna be twitching a lot. A Mercurian to handle cooling off the cops sounds like a better idea. Or would they get bored and go insane for not being able to kill anything? A Kyrio to jump into a couple of bodies and get them out of the danger zone, or to smooth the way through red tape at the clean up site, might be useful, but less helpful I think than the Mecurian. I don't see the Elohim Resonance being especially useful, but maybe I'm not thinking enough about it. - -----Original Message----- From: Whistling in the Dark [mailto:in-sabre@annotations.com] Then do it that way in your game. But that Malakite's going to have a pretty poor quality of life, running around shepharding people out of the way when they could be cutting off Demon heads. DS1 Laurence and David must be riddled with Discord then. Or do they take off once a week for Demon Hunting? - -----Original Message----- From: Whistling in the Dark [mailto:in-sabre@annotations.com] Then change it for your game. And accept that other people might see things differently. DS1 Thanks so much, but I don't need your permission. Nor did I ever say someone else cannot do things differently from me. I am quite capable of letting other people do what they want. I don't seem to be allowed to ask questions of why things are a certain way, nor do I seem to be allowed to propose differences without getting shouted at and abused. - -----Original Message----- From: Whistling in the Dark [mailto:in-sabre@annotations.com] And congratulations, you've earned a ticket into the ol' Kill file. Please make yourself comfortable there. Remember, honey versus vinegar. Thus allowing you to join the legion of children who can't seem to be able to discuss things without getting personal about it. My, my, how nice of you. - -----Original Message----- From: Whistling in the Dark [mailto:in-sabre@annotations.com] Nope. Any more than it seems foolish to send two Malakim to wipe out a couple of Balseraphs or sending two Mercurians to befriend a school choir. The duty here is 'guard, report, and protect the innocent.' There's no reason, when two hammers are needed to complete a woodshed, to send a hammer and a socket wrench because the two hammers seem redundant. DS1 That is a fine analogy, if all it takes to build a woodshed is hammers and nails. But it often takes saws, screws, and even nuts and bolts to build a proper storage shed, so the man with two hammers is out of luck. - -----Original Message----- From: Whistling in the Dark [mailto:in-sabre@annotations.com] Apples and Oranges. The Triads are teams Judging angels. There is no Choir whose entire nature is "Judge." Instead, Dominic uses several Choirs to approximate it. When Dominic assigns angels to guard something or someone, he uses Cherubim (as per Superiors 1, page 53). DS1 Does he send two? Or, if the person or place needing guarding is of importance enough to require more than one servant assigned, does he perhaps send along a member of a different Choir? Does he send two Master Distincted Cherubs with exactly the same capabilities in every way? Or, considering that they are going to be guarding this thing for eternity, does he perhaps give them the ability to adapt and change and handle a variety of situations? - -----Original Message----- From: Whistling in the Dark [mailto:in-sabre@annotations.com] Yeah, well, all this does is ensure you won't get answers from people at all, the next time. I'm not sure how you're ahead on the transaction, but hey -- enjoy. - -- DS1 Answers like the abusive half of you message I can do without. Answers like the other half, I wish I received more often. But hey, enjoy being who you are. I'm way ahead of any transaction that cuts down on the number of abusive e-mails I receive. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 11:33:10 +0300 From: "Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW)" Subject: RE: IN> Firemen Questions - -----Original Message----- From: Rev. Pee Kitty [mailto:pkitty@brainpuke.com] On Thu, 10 Oct 2002, Charles Glasgow wrote: > Beth, please forgive me, but all other approaches by the gentler and kinder > folk than I having failed. I'm going to try getting the message through his > head with the sledgehammer. Don't feel too bad - I think we've all lost a little bit of our patience trying to get through to this guy. I'm actually starting to envision a literal brick wall when I see his name. In my opinion, your reply here got ruder than necessary near the end, but I can't particularly blame you... :) - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian, Q4B4L! Meow! "When you're alive you gotta SHOUT, and MAKE A LOT OF NOISE or WHATEVER, 'cause when you're dead, you SHUT UP LIKE HELL!" -- St. Jeroen Van Braam DS1 Maybe if you stopped worrying about "getting through" as if proving your point were some sort of winning score, and entered into conversation where ideas are exchanged you might do better. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 11:31:41 +0300 From: "Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW)" Subject: RE: IN> Firemen Questions - -----Original Message----- From: David Edelstein [mailto:amadan@amadan.org] Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW) wrote: > I disagree. Good for you. Now stop complaining that there are no explanations for why Gabriel's guardians are Cherubim. There are several (I can think of a couple that haven't been mentioned yet), you just don't like them. Can you accept the fact that your viewpoint is not necessarily objective reality and something that everyone else must adopt, or are you waging some kind of crusade to prove to the rest of the list that your personal notions of the IN universe must be accepted by all or the time-space continuum will collapse into a singularity the size of Tom Green's talent? We get those about twice a year (the rants, I mean, not the collapsing into Tom Green-talent-sized singularities), and I haven't sharpened my long knives in quite a while.... - -Edelstein, David C., XYZ(PDQ) DS1 Sharpen them up, they seem pretty dull right now. I have only received one answer as to why two Cherubs. It was "Because one might die" which I responded to by saying "That sounds like a poor way of doing things" and still receive a replies on that issue that are abusive flaming or childish posturing. Your example above is a good representation of both. Did I ever tell anyone they are wrong? Or did I say that it didn't make sense and could they perhaps explain things beyond "They are two Cherubs because they are two Cherubs"? Have I ever at any time on this list told someone that their viewpoint was wrong and they needed to change their game to my way of thinking? Look back and find it for me. Or did I say that the answer they were giving me was my own question turned into a statement, which was in fact no answer at all? Better than wasting time with looking through old files and hunting for more flames; why not actually address the issue I brought up? You can think of several reasons for two Cherub with completely identical songs, skills, resonances and attunements that haven't been mentioned? Well, that is what I am looking for, asking for, nearly begging for. Ah, but you'd rather be smarmy, threatening, and childish. ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2812 ********************************