in_nomine-digest Thursday, October 10 2002 Volume 01 : Number 2813 In this digest: RE: IN> Firemen Questions for the Reverend RE: IN> Firemen Questions Re: IN> Firemen Questions RE: IN> Firemen Questions Re: IN> word reach (was Re: IN> Word-bound reliever) Re: IN> Questions about Litheroy and Songs RE: IN> Firemen Questions RE: IN> Firemen Questions IN> The Outcast Protocol Re: IN> Questions about Litheroy and Songs RE: IN> Firemen Questions Re: IN> Faith (from: The Glory of Islam) Re: IN> Faith (from: The Glory of Islam) IN> Higher Heavens & Lower Hells IN> Fire & Justice (was: Firemen Questions) IN> And the Stars Shined On (a variation on a theme) IN> Firemen Questions IN> Questions about Litheroy and Songs Re: IN> Faith (from: The Glory of Islam) RE: IN> Firemen Questions Re: IN> Faith (from: The Glory of Islam) Re: IN> Faith Varient Archangels of Re: IN> Firemen Questions (about cheerleaders) Re: IN> And the Stars Shined On (a variation on a theme) Re: IN> INverse Superior- Michael, Demon King of War ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 07:57:26 -0400 (EDT) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: RE: IN> Firemen Questions for the Reverend On Thu, 10 Oct 2002, Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW) wrote: > From: Rev. Pee Kitty [mailto:pkitty@brainpuke.com] > > I'd elaborate, but judging by your past responses, you'd just > post a rude response and continue asking the same question as if no one > had answered it... > DS1 > > Fine. Let's try using small words for you. I see that I was correct in my above assumption. Thank you for proving me right. Good night. - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian, Q4B4L! Meow! "the toll to arrive within dumbassia's boundaries is steep, but one is free to leave at any time." -- kevbob ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 08:18:53 -0400 From: "Christopher B. Anthony" Subject: RE: IN> Firemen Questions Mr. Bergeron, It has come to my attention that we have been remiss in our explanations of why the Firemen are a pair of Cherubim with the Ofanim resonance (henceforth Cherub-Ofanim), instead of having access to the resonances and abilities of other Choirs. With that in mind, I would like to present a detailed and point-by-point analysis of why this is so; hopefully, this will help in clearing the matter up. If I have failed in this, or if you would like to present differing viewpoints, I invite you to respond in kind. 1) Two Cherub-Ofanim are used because of the slim (but existent) possibility that one of them will be Vessel-killed and therefore in Trauma, or soul-killed and therefore more or less permanently unavailable. The odds of this happening to both of them (without a cataclysm that would bring the rest of the Superiors running anyway) are so slim as to be nonexistent. Using two Cherubim ensures that one will always be attuned to her. Yes, it is redundant. Yes, it is a system designed to assume that somewhere along the line, something is going to fail. When one has the Calabite Prince of Fire gunning for the person one is trying to protect, one does tend to assume that there are going to be casualties. 2) Two Cherub-Ofanim are used because no other configuration of pairs of choir is as effective as what they do, which is to keep an eye on Gabriel and let Yves know if something really bad happens. Consider: - - Seraph-Cherub: Would be able to tell whether an illusion (such as the one detailed here: http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/articles/new/GMs/Adventures/unnamed2.html) is real, and would be able to track Gabriel and to tell if she were in imminent danger, but would be unable to keep up with Gabriel with any degree of success without having to use Songs. - - Seraph-Ofanite: Would be able to tell whether an illusion is real, and would be able to keep up with Gabriel, but would be unable to track Gabriel if she disappeared suddenly without using Songs, and would be unable to tell if Gabriel were in imminent danger. - - Seraph-Elohite: Would be able to tell whether an illusion is real, and would be able to tell whether Gabriel's mood was about to change suddenly, but would be unable to either track or keep up with Gabriel without having to use Songs, and would be unable to tell whether she were in imminent danger. - - Seraph-Malakite: Would be able to tell whether an illusion is real, and would be able to determine whether Gabriel currently believes that what she is doing or has done is just, and would be able to return immediately if his Vessel were slain, but would be unable to either track or keep up with Gabriel without having to use Songs and would be unable to tell whether she were in imminent danger. - - Seraph-Kyriotate: Would be able to tell whether an illusion is real, and would be able to possess locals to lend verisimilitude to Gabriel's acts (or to provide them with extra Body hits), but would be unable to either track or keep up with Gabriel without having to use Songs, and would be unable to tell whether she were in imminent danger. - - Seraph-Mercurian: Would be able to tell whether an illusion is real, and would be well-suited to public image and damage control issues, but would be unable to either track or keep up with Gabriel without having to use Songs, and would be unable to tell whether she were in imminent danger. - - Cherub-Ofanite: Would be able to track and keep up with Gabriel and tell whether she were in imminent danger. - - Cherub-Elohite: Would be able to track Gabriel and tell whether she were in imminent danger, and would be able to tell whether Gabriel's mood were about to change suddenly, but would be unable to keep up with her without using Songs. - - Cherub-Malakite: Would be able to track Gabriel and tell whether she were in imminent danger, and would be able to determine whether Gabriel currently believes that what she is doing or has done is just, and would be able to return immediately if his Vessel were slain, but would be unable to keep up with her without using Songs. - - Cherub-Kyriotate: Would be able to track Gabriel and tell whether she were in imminent danger, and would be able to possess locals to lend verisimilitude to Gabriel's acts (or to provide them with extra Body hits), but would be unable to keep up with Gabriel without using Songs. - - Cherub-Mercurian: Would be able to track Gabriel and tell whether she were in imminent danger, and would be well-suited to public image and damage control issues, but would be unable to keep up with Gabriel without using Songs. - - Ofanite-Elohite: Would be able to keep up with Gabriel, and would be able to tell whether Gabriel's mood were about to change suddenly, but would be unable to track her without using Songs, and would be unable to tell if she were in imminent danger. - - Ofanite-Malakite: Would be able to keep up with Gabriel, and would be able to determine whether Gabriel currently believes that what she is doing or has done is just, and would be able to return immediately if his Vessel were slain, but would be unable to track Gabriel without using Songs, and would be unable to tell if she were in imminent danger. - - Ofanite-Kyriotate: Would be able to keep up with Gabriel, and would be able to possess locals to lend verisimilitude to Gabriel's acts (or to provide them with extra Body hits), but would be unable to track Gabriel without using Songs, and would be unable to tell if she were in imminent danger. - - Ofanite-Mercurian: Would be able to keep up with Gabriel, and would be well-suited to public image and damage control issues, but would be unable to track Gabriel without using Songs, and would be unable to tell if she were in imminent danger. - - Elohite-Malakite: Would be able to tell if Gabriel's mood were about to change suddenly, and would be able to determine whether Gabriel currently believes that what she is doing or has done is just, and would be able to return immediately if his Vessel were slain, but would be unable to keep up with or track Gabriel without using Songs, and would be unable to tell if she were in imminent danger. - - Elohite-Kyriotate: Would be able to tell if Gabriel's mood were about to change suddenly, and would be able to possess mortals to lend verisimilitude to Gabriel's acts (or to provide them with extra Body hits), but would be unable to keep up with or track Gabriel without using Songs, and would be unable to tell if she were in imminent danger. - - Elohite-Mercurian: Would be able to tell if Gabriel's mood were about to change suddenly, and would be well-suited to public image and damage control issues, but would be unable to keep up with or track Gabriel without using Songs, and would be unable to tell if she were in imminent danger. - - Malakite-Kyriotate: Would be able to determine whether Gabriel currently believes that what she is doing or has done is just, and would be able to return immediately if his Vessel were slain, and would be able to possess locals to lend verisimilitude to Gabriel's acts (or to provide them with extra Body hits), but would be unable to keep up with or track Gabriel without using Songs, and would be unable to tell if she were in imminent danger. - - Malakite-Mercurian: Would be able to determine whether Gabriel currently believes that what she is doing or has done is just, and would be able to return immediately if his Vessel were slain, and would be well-suited to public image and damage control issues, but would be unable to keep up with or track Gabriel without using Songs, and would be unable to tell if she were in imminent danger. - - Kyriotate-Mercurian: Would be able to possess locals to lend verisimilitude to Gabriel's acts (or to provide extra Body hits), and would be well-suited to public image and damage control issues, but would be unable to keep up with or track Gabriel without using Songs, and would be unable to tell if she were in imminent danger. I think that's all of them; I'm doing this off the top of my head, so I'm not 100% sure. Also, I've left off inverse relationships (i.e., I'm not including both Seraph-Cherubim and Cherub-Seraphim) to save space and my poor, abused fingers. 3) Two Cherubim are used because they're the only Choir whose resonance is constant. These Cherubim have been attuned to Gabriel from Day One; if they ever (for any reason) have to re-attune, and discover that they can't, something's very wrong. If their resonance ever stops working on her - i.e., if the attunements are broken - something's very wrong. Seraphim, Elohim, Malakim and Mercurians would need to be pinging constantly (which might also drive Gabriel further nuts), which runs the risk of failure; an Ofanite can only attune to himself, and the only Kyriotate who would stand any kind of chance of being able to use his resonance on Gabriel is Jordi, who very likely Doesn't Want Anything To Do With This, Thank You. 4) Two Cherub-Ofanim are used because that's who Yves decided to stick on Gabriel's tail, and Yves doesn't always answer questions. (This can also be read as: "Two Cherub-Ofanim are used because the LE at the time may not have been paying attention and I couldn't bloody well tell Maya to change it in S3 without screwing a whole lot of things up.") As far as I can tell, these are the reasons for using two Cherubim with the Ofanite resonance. I don't have The Marches; I don't know what their writeups look like, if indeed their individual statistics are given at all. (It's been stated that their attunements, at least, are listed; I don't know what else is there.) If both skillsets are identical, then yes, there's a problem with this; two characters should be at least a little different. However, Aluriel and Mordekial have been working on this job for better than a thousand years now; more to the point, Yves very likely said to himself, long before this ever happened, "Let's put together a contingency plan, shall we?", and either trained these two Cherubim at the same time, using the same tools, or created them out of whole cloth as identically able to deal with Gabriel and let them progress from there. Both methods generate a pair of angels whose abilities are nearly identical. I would like to preface the next section of this message by stating that this applies to every person on this list. There is not a single one of us who could not benefit from the application of what I am about to say - myself included. I admit that in the past, my responses have been rash, and I will try my best to avoid this in the future. That being said: It is your responsibility to not offend people *just as much* as it is their responsibility to do their best to take what you say in the best possible light, and to take non-offensive action when what you say *does* offend them. Again, with one notable exception, I have seen nothing in this discussion from the rest of the people involved that could be construed - *by me* - as offensive. Whether you have chosen to take offense is another matter entirely, and the burden for that does not rest on their shoulders. Likewise, when people tell you that they have taken offense at what you have to say, and that to avoid further offense they have chosen to avoid receiving further messages from you, this is simply their way of letting you know that a) they have taken offense at something that you have said, and that b) you should not expect further responses from them. However, when you respond to this with pejoratives (such as calling them "children"), you cannot help but give offense. I'm asking you to please think not only about the point you are trying to make but about how you are trying to make it. I'm asking you to remember that there are, in point of fact, other people who are responding to your posts - not just automatons without feelings or emotions - and that they do have points of view which might differ from yours; not only this, but I ask you in addition to consider those points of view before dismissing them. I'm not trying to say that you're actively giving offense; all I want to do is remind you that there might be a better way to phrase what you're trying to say. Goodcheer, Christopher B. Anthony anthoch@earlham.edu/edg@sjgames.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 07:30:21 -0500 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> Firemen Questions - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW)" To: Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 2:44 AM Subject: RE: IN> Firemen Questions > All of which points out in glaring light how useless it is to have two > Cherubs with matching abilities in every way be assigned the task. Having > more options open to handle a greater range of situations would make them > more capable of being able to contact Yves in the event of a true emergency. The who whatting how with huh? Angels of any Choir can invoke their Superior and/or use Celestial Tongues with equal ease. Furthermore, having two attunements locked onto Gabriel reduces the odds of an Infernal Intervention intervening with one attunement and thus causing a false positive. They don't /need/ "to handle a greater range of situations". Their sole job is to keep a running plot of Gabriel's location, activities, and condition... and to report in at once if a) said readings vary outside the range of acceptable norms or b) they lose signal. Not only is the Cherubim resonance tailor-made for this, but damn little else is. And forget Songs... this is a 24-and-7 job with no relief, they won't have the Essence to keep it up continually. [snip] > People having dreams of flaming women talking to them might be a good place > to start. Riiiiight, and you only need to scan several billion dreamscapes to get the list. And once you finish, you know where Gabriel was an indeterminate number of hours ago -- or days, weeks, months, or years ago, given that a dreamer could be remembering an encounter with Gabriel from however far back their memory stretches, and not in real time. And at her speed, narrowing down where Gabriel was even an hour ago narrows down her location to "Somewhere on the planet Earth, nearby local space, or the Marches." Which is exactly what you knew when you started. You really are not thinking this through. [snip] > The rest of his flame has no business in this forum. Riiiiight, but your own speeches on what idiots we all are do. *rolls eyes* Put down the keyboard and get some sleep, DS1. - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 08:43:45 -0700 From: Harukami Subject: RE: IN> Firemen Questions 1) Superiors are capable of multiple manifestations at a time. 2) Therefore, a Superior may need more than one person following him/her around to mop up his/her messes if he/she is mentally incapable of cleaning up after him/herself. 3) And Yves looked at the situation and said, "Oh my, I think a best person for this job would be a Cherub. But, oh dear, Cherubim can't have multiple manifestations too, can they? Well, let's make two identical Cherubs!" 4) And it was so. 5) And Yves looked at the Cherubim, and saw that they were good. ....my take on the situation. If people don't like it, that's fine, but rather than dismissing it out of hand, DS1, do consider it. Thank you! Harukami "The voice you hear is almost immediately followed by a *thump* and a slightly breathless squealing..." - -Myrridin, GM, doing an auditory description of Ariel (Cherub of Dreams) kicking Alaemon (Demon Prince of Secrets) in the balls. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 05:44:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> word reach (was Re: IN> Word-bound reliever) - --- Jim Burzelic wrote: > I was hoping to have a servant of the Demon of > Ether(drugs) see the possiblity in the word just being > wholly ignored for several reasons unbeknownst to him, > who then runs around and gets the word for himself. He > then starts getting humans to call space, ether once > again. [snip] > And just to clarify, the above would not work > canonically? No, because Words aren't in English or any other earthly language. The Words that we know are translations of the terms from the Celestial language. Imperfect translations at that. =====

Michael Walton, #US2002023848

"If you succeed, you will make some false friends and some true enemies. Succeed anyway." - -- Bishop David M. Copeland

__________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 05:49:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Questions about Litheroy and Songs - --- Brian Westcott wrote: > 1.I just found out about Litheroy: Archangel of > Revelations. Is he in > the official canon and are his stats listed in any of the > books or any upcoming books? Litheroy is canon. He's in the GM screen packet. May be in Final Trumpet, too; I don't own that one. > 2.Is there a Song where you can actually teleport or > travel physically > from one dimension to another Canonically, no (unless you count the Marches). There have been suggestions posted to the list, though. =====

Michael Walton, #US2002023848

"If you succeed, you will make some false friends and some true enemies. Succeed anyway." - -- Bishop David M. Copeland

__________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 05:54:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: RE: IN> Firemen Questions - --- "Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW)" wrote: > The only answer I have received so far is "because one > might get killed" > which I find simplistic and unreasonably paranoid. It's not paranoia if they're really out to get you. Remember, there's a War on. > Or just "planning for > failure" which is unconscionably foolish. Not at all. Most people will never be in a potentially fatal automobile crash, but those who are will be VERY grateful for the airbags. =====

Michael Walton, #US2002023848

"If you succeed, you will make some false friends and some true enemies. Succeed anyway." - -- Bishop David M. Copeland

__________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 06:02:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: RE: IN> Firemen Questions - --- "Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW)" wrote: > My entire ship is a limited resource, and putting another > Destroyer > alongside of us, following the same ship, doing the exact > same thing with > the exact same capabilities would be wasteful. This is the most coherent argument that you've offered yet in support of your position. If you'd stated it this way from the start, this thread probably wouldn't have degenerated so far. > Maybe they are listening for prophecies. An interesting possibility which I'll be sure to include in my game if I ever have one again. =====

Michael Walton, #US2002023848

"If you succeed, you will make some false friends and some true enemies. Succeed anyway." - -- Bishop David M. Copeland

__________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 09:12:26 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: IN> The Outcast Protocol Hey all-- There's a kind of pleasure to be found in reading just half of a conversation with a troll -- specifically, the rational half -- while the troll's side of it is filtered cheerfully into your kill file. No muss, no worry. However, given the amount of traffic I've seen come across the list on the subject, and knowing that traffic is *half* the real traffic being generated around this, two things become clear at least in In Nomine terms: 1. One of our members is dissonant and/or discordant. The specifics of his discord are not certain at this time (Angry, perhaps? It's hard to tell), but either way, said discord affects his ability to communicate harmoniously with the Host of INML, and his dissonance is causing him to fail different social skill rolls. 2. Repeated attempts to help this discordant and dissonant member have been rebuffed or have led to progressive dissonance on his part. As you all know from the Core Book, an angel who is dissonant and discordant, but who does not work to relieve these pressures and indeed cascades into more serious ones eventually has his heart crack, and he is sent forth from Heaven. It is hoped that this Outcast will turn away from his path and make a serious effort to clear the dissonance that has so distanced himself from the Heavenly Host, before he Falls. This is where we now are. The only way to keep our wayward member from becoming even more dissonant and discordant is Outcasting. Don't respond to his baiting. Don't let yourself be dragged into reinforcing his dissonance. Speak and move with Heavenly Harmony with one another, but exile him from your company. With luck, he will see his errors and, with loyal tetherwork and self-contemplation will be able to return to the good graces of the Host. The only sad alternative is the dark Fall of Listbanning, and I'm sure that our beloved Archangel would prefer to avoid that. Remember, kids. Sailor Dominic says "Outcasting is for his own good -- and YOURS!" Sailor Dominic says. - -- Eric A. Burns Freelance Writer and Textual Whore http://www.annotations.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 09:30:35 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Questions about Litheroy and Songs On Thursday, October 10, 2002, at 08:49 AM, Michael Walton wrote: > --- Brian Westcott wrote: >> 1.I just found out about Litheroy: Archangel of >> Revelations. Is he in >> the official canon and are his stats listed in any of the >> books or any upcoming books? > > Litheroy is canon. He's in the GM screen packet. May be > in Final Trumpet, too; I don't own that one. > The Screen Pack is Out of Print, so SJGames has kindly offered Litheroy's basic stats through the In Nomine Collection as well. http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/articles/new/Gallery/Archangels/ litheroy.html for the link. So you can use him right now! (Now, we just need to get the Superiors series back into production so I can send my completed expanded writeup for Litheroy to the powers that be, and hope they like it and buy it and put it in the book....) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 10:44:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Ryan M Roth Subject: RE: IN> Firemen Questions On Thu, 10 Oct 2002, Harukami wrote: > 1) Superiors are capable of multiple manifestations at a time. > This echoes a thought I was pondering for some time now. Consider: Gabriel is an Archangel, with the Word of Fire. She is mentally unstable and is driven to punish cruelty in the Corporeal plane. Given this, and the fact that is in the nature of flame to spread, I would posit that Gabriel would tend to use the multiple manifestations/Kyriotate resonance a great deal, perhaps more than most Archangels do. If so, how would that interact with a Cherubic attunement to her? When the Cherub checks his resonance, does he just get info on one of the manifestations? All of them? Most, up to his attunement limit? As far as I know, there are no canon answers to these questions (though, I'd imagine that the Cherub would get a headache after a while) How can the Cherub react if more than one manifestations require his attention immediately? Well, I guess maybe if he had a partner, it would help. He could comminicate constantly with his partner, letting him know what the attunement is telling him. But...that's kinda inefficient, isn't it? Having to constantly ask the Cherub where Gabriel is and so forth, and having to constantly tell the partner what he feels across the attunement. Plus, if things got really hot and bloodly, there simply might not be time to make this communication. So maybe it would be better if both of them had access to the Cherub resonance. Well, then there is the question of 'why cherub-ofanium?' I would imagine that it is necessary. Gabriel is an Ofanite Archangel, whose very Word overlaps Words like Energy. I imagine that if she wanted to leave someone behind, no one would be able to keep up with her speed, short of Janus. But, for day to day business, it might take an Ofanite's resonance to keep up with her version of a 'slow stroll down the block'. Obviously, no lesser angel is going to be able to keep tabs on Gabriel if she decides that she doesn't want them to. I would speculate, though, that most of the time she isn't even aware of the Fireman's existence. In addition, one might wonder as to Yves's true motivations behind keeping tabs on her. What exactly is the purpose of the Fireman, really? Yves is primarily concerned with Destiny, yes? So it may be that the Fireman are serving a role even they are not aware of. One possibility: in addition to their stated duties, the Fireman have a hidden purpose, which is to be a tether for Gabriel's remaining sanity. Gabriel went insane shortly after being tried by Dominic -- in a human, we might expect strong feelings of rejection and abandonment by Heaven. And yet, here are two Cherubs, the Guardian Angels, pure Devotion, who follow her and try to help her as much as they can. If Gabriel realizes this, even subconsiously, it would reinforce the idea that she has not been abandoned or hated, that she is still loved and needed by Heaven. In the short-term, reinforcement like this may prevent her from slipping further. In the long run, it might bring her back home. Just some rambling thoughts. Make of them what you will. Ryan R. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 11:04:44 -0400 From: Matthew Gerber Subject: Re: IN> Faith (from: The Glory of Islam) This entire post is IMHO-enabled. On 10/9/02 10:17 PM, "David Edelstein" wrote: > One must believe that the laws of physics are immutable in order for > them to make sense, but one doesn't have to believe that our > understanding of physics is perfect. > IOW, if tomorrow Earth's gravity suddenly decreased by 10%, it wouldn't > necessarily mean that gravity doesn't obey natural laws after all -- it > might mean that we just discovered a hitherto unknown scientific > phenomenon and will have to adjust our understanding accordingly. > Which is why Faith and science are incompatible. This is a fairly common misunderstanding of faith. Corresponding to your first paragraph, one has to believe there is a God to participate in, for instance, Christianity, Judaism or Islam; but one does not have to believe that our understanding of God is perfect or complete. Christianity actually states explicitly that it is not; I believe the other two do as well. (And certainly many others, but as a Christian, the scriptural traditions are the ones with which I have some level of real familiarity.) The idea of faith as a stubborn insistence that the world must conform to one's preconceptions turns faith on its head. Faith is not the statement that "X is true, regardless of what clear reality demonstrates"; it is the statement that "when we can see clearly, we will see that X is true". Fear of scientific inquiry stems from a lack of faith, not from faith itself. It is as possible *and as necessary* for theists to adjust their spiritual worldview to accommodate newfound truth (whether discovered by further religious study or by scientific inquiry) as it is for scientists to adjust their worldview to accommodate newfound information. (Someday, I really, really need to get around to writing up my variant Elohite Archangel of Faith.) Matt ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 11:30:11 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Faith (from: The Glory of Islam) On Thursday, October 10, 2002, at 11:04 AM, Matthew Gerber wrote: > (Someday, I really, really need to get around to writing up my variant > Elohite Archangel of Faith.) > My variant Archangels of Faith tend to group around Seraphim or Kyriotates -- I'm not sure Elohite is the best choice for that Word. (That Khalid *is* an Elohite is something I've screeded on at length before, and I won't rescreed on it here. It's worth noting David did as good a job as anyone I can imagine at making Khalid as he was premade work in terms of his Word, biases and choir, but that doesn't make it the best choice.) That being said... *this* I have to see, Matt. - -- Eric A. Burns Freelance Writer and Textual Whore http://www.annotations.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 11:35:18 -0400 From: BC Petery Subject: IN> Higher Heavens & Lower Hells "God does not play dice with the universe; he plays Hot Jazz with the Symphony. If He didn't enjoy the independent riffs I'm sure He could stop it, so Evil can't be all bad. It's not like it's Scat." -Pete Pete, Demon of Misinformation http://www15.brinkster.com/ugwump/rpgs/in/pete.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 11:35:20 -0400 From: BC Petery Subject: IN> Fire & Justice (was: Firemen Questions) > Gabriel's servitors like to brag to Dominicans about the punishments they've > inflicted, which wouldn't make much sense unless they were doing something the > Dominicans wouldn't like. Or maybe they are trying to prove they are doing their duty in the cause of Heaven. Servitors of Fire are under as much suspicion as their mistress. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 11:35:20 -0400 From: BC Petery Subject: IN> And the Stars Shined On (a variation on a theme) > You are your mother's child as well as your father's. All of > his power cannot be unleashed until her peace has been broken. Gog: He's only bitter on the outside. Inside he's filled with creamy nougat. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 11:35:20 -0400 From: BC Petery Subject: IN> Firemen Questions > And, even if this is not the case, one Cherub can keep track of her, so WHY > HAVE TWO? One to talk Gabby down, the other for damage control in the blast zone (i.e. Pulling the players out of harm's way & covering for their blunders). As to "why Cherubim," they don't need to continually spend Essence to know where Gabby is. If you want them to be faster just give them the Songs of Correspondence. (Not unreasonable as L.Cant. wasn't out when RC2 was published.) Why are they nearly identical? Maybe to make sure that they are MINOR characters, to keep them from detracting from the impact of meeting Gabby. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= On a different note: This argument has produced three digests in one day. Let's try to keep the posts concise and to the point. The longer your post are, the less likely I am (and presumably others are) to read and respond to them. This goes for the rest of you too. We don't need a bunch of flamin' cheerleaders. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 11:35:20 -0400 From: BC Petery Subject: IN> Questions about Litheroy and Songs > 1.I just found out about Litheroy: Archangel of Revelations. Litheroy's write up can be found in the GM screen, along with the fast paced adventure, "Feast of Blades." > 2.Is there a Song where you can actually teleport or travel > physically from one dimension to another The Celestial Song of Location. (Noisy! L.Cant. p38) Must be used in conjunction with someone else who knows the Song or a Bridgestone. (L.Reliq. p73) =-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Wee! I'm a Rules Lawyer! Pete, Demon of Misinformation http://www15.brinkster.com/ugwump/rpgs/IN/pete.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 09:38:42 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Faith (from: The Glory of Islam) Matthew Gerber wrote: >This is a fairly common misunderstanding of faith. > > Umm, no. But this is definitely OT now. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 11:45:15 -0400 From: "Wajenberg, Earl" Subject: RE: IN> Firemen Questions Ryan M Roth wrote: "Gabriel went insane shortly after being tried by Dominic -- in a human, we might expect strong feelings of rejection and abandonment by Heaven. And yet, here are two Cherubs, the Guardian Angels, pure Devotion, who follow her and try to help her as much as they can. If Gabriel realizes this, even subconsiously, it would reinforce the idea that she has not been abandoned or hated, that she is still loved and needed by Heaven. In the short-term, reinforcement like this may prevent her from slipping further. In the long run, it might bring her back home." An original, interesting, and Heaven-like interpretation of the Firemen. Thank you. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 23:57:02 +0800 From: "Jeffery Watkins" Subject: Re: IN> Faith (from: The Glory of Islam) > Which is why Faith and science are incompatible. > > This is a fairly common misunderstanding of faith. I just want to say a big THANK YOU! That entire email put more eloquently into words that I have been saying for years to many who have had similar views about Faith and Science. I get the same point across, but never had I seen it so well presented. Your email is definitely a keeper! > (Someday, I really, really need to get around to writing up my variant > Elohite Archangel of Faith.) > > > Matt Oh Please! This sounds wonderful and I look forward to your presentation of your variant. Jeff =) Part of my insanity manifest at JCT, where In Nomine meets science fiction in the far future http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jctrinityRPG - -- __________________________________________________________ Download the FREE Opera browser at www.opera.com/download/ Free OperaMail at http://www.operamail.com/ Powered by Outblaze ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 23:59:46 +0800 From: "Jeffery Watkins" Subject: Re: IN> Faith Varient Archangels of > My variant Archangels of Faith tend to group around Seraphim or > Kyriotates -- I'm not sure Elohite is the best choice for that Word. > Eric A. Burns A Kyriotate?!? Wow! That sounds really interesting. Do you have that one written up or willing to? Jeff =) Part of my insanity manifest at JCT, where In Nomine meets science fiction in the far future http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jctrinityRPG - -- __________________________________________________________ Download the FREE Opera browser at www.opera.com/download/ Free OperaMail at http://www.operamail.com/ Powered by Outblaze ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 00:19:42 +0800 From: "Jeffery Watkins" Subject: Re: IN> Firemen Questions (about cheerleaders) >From: BC Petery We don't need a bunch of flamin' cheerleaders. > Just so I understand--no praising others for their good work? Jeff =) Part of my insanity manifest at JCT, where In Nomine meets science fiction in the far future http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jctrinityRPG - -- __________________________________________________________ Download the FREE Opera browser at www.opera.com/download/ Free OperaMail at http://www.operamail.com/ Powered by Outblaze ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 10:30:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> And the Stars Shined On (a variation on a theme) [applause] Looking forward to the next installment, I am. =====

Michael Walton, #US2002023848

"If you succeed, you will make some false friends and some true enemies. Succeed anyway." - -- Bishop David M. Copeland

__________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 14:11:21 -0400 From: "Josh Moger" Subject: Re: IN> INverse Superior- Michael, Demon King of War >He'd be -so- dissapointed in canon Lucifer ;D > But he's also jealous. After all, Michael was the first angel. Michael was the first Truth of God. The first of the Most Holy. The first divine being on whose wings the groundwork of the Symphony was wrought into existence. Michael was "He Who Is Like God" And yet... he wasn't important enough for the Word. Or any Word for that matter. He was the first being to speak of the Truth and yet he was judged to not be strong enough to carry a Word of God. He was judged incapable of championing a fundamental concept of the universe. By the time of Eden, Michael had seen angel after angel ascend to a Word. Then humanity, little more than monkeys, was declared to be more important to God than the angels. Than Michael. When Michael led the Rebellion and then came to Hell to establish his own version of the Kingdom of Heaven, he hid the Word he had stolen in Words of Darkness, Hubris, War. He hid his Word deeply in his Heart. So far down, so blinded from his own Truth. So deeply that even he has forgotten that his Word in this dark inverted Symphony... is Jealousy. Josh (Actually, that was just a series of thoughts I had last night. More a reason for his Fall and so forth than what I was going to contribute earlier. That'll come in a few minutes. It's not much, but it's something and it might contribute to the Ethereal history of INverse.) ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2813 ********************************