in_nomine-digest Thursday, October 10 2002 Volume 01 : Number 2814 In this digest: IN> We'll never be right about this fireman question... Re: IN> Faith (from: The Glory of Islam) Re: IN> Faith (from: The Glory of Islam) Re: IN> word reach (was Re: IN> Word-bound reliever) IN> On Khalid RE: IN> Firemen Questions Re: IN> An appropriate punishment? RE: IN> Firemen Questions Re: IN> Faith (from: The Glory of Islam) Re: IN> Faith Re: IN> On Khalid IN> Fwd: Lilim and stuff From: BC Petery, Oct7 IN> Ferret-Cherubim Re: IN> Faith (from: The Glory of Islam) Re: IN> Faith (from: The Glory of Islam) Re: IN> INverse Superior- Michael, Demon King of War Re: IN> Ferret-Cherubim Re: IN> INverse Superior- Michael, Demon King of War IN> I'm going to Shorecon this weekend... IN> Renegade Archangels- Plot Seed Re: IN> INverse Superior- Michael, Demon King of War RE: IN> An appropriate punishment? Re: IN> Renegade Archangels- Plot Seed Re: IN> Faith (from: The Glory of Islam) Re: IN> Renegade Archangels- Plot Seed Re: IN> Renegade Archangels- Plot Seed Re: IN> Ferret-Cherubim Re: IN> Ferret-Cherubim ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 10:21:58 -0600 From: "Rampaging Crypto-Man" Subject: IN> We'll never be right about this fireman question... ...so why doesn't Mr. Bergeron just post his opinion and let's all go home? (Besides, I'm getting tired of hearing Eric Cartman talk about his fireman every time I read the subject line. Or is that just me?) > Did I ever tell anyone they are wrong? Or did I say that it didn't make > sense and could they perhaps explain things beyond "They are two Cherubs > because they are two Cherubs"? Ah! There's the reason. There's two because there's two. They're Cherubim because they're Cherubim. And they're identical because it feels right. Two identical angels works from a real life point of view. I can just hear a crusty old theologan telling kids about two completely identical cherubim who are tasked by God to forever watch over the angel Gabriel. If I read about 'em in the Book of Angels, I wouldn't be surprised. >From a game point of view, there are two reasons why they are Cherubim. I'm not sure how extensively Mr. Bergeron has read the books, but anyone who really digs into In Nomine books will notice that the mightiest of celestial beings are often the simplest. Weak angels are complex, complicated beings that aren't easily defined in one or two words. Mighty beings can often be summed up merely by telling someone their word and their choir. Try listing off the Archangels and Demon Princes by word and choir... only a few glaring exceptions to this rule exist. The Cherubim who watch over Gabriel are mighty beings. It makes sense that two people assigned to follow and watch over Gabriel would be the choir must suited to follow and watch things. If this were a petty little band of player characters, you could pick anyone to do it... but if these are celesital juggernauts, you'd pick a couple of beings that not only like the job they are about to do, but EMBODY the job they are about to do. Read the Angelic Player's Guide and you'll see explanations about how angels feel regarding their words and nature. A Malakite with the Cherubim resonance would LOVE honor and BE honor and INTUITIVE KNOW honor... and he'd also know a few tricks regarding guarding things. A Cherubim, on the other hand, woudl LOVE guarding and BE guarding and... you get the picture. Sure, another angel can also obsess over guarding, but never, ever the same way a Cherub does. The other reason they're Cherubim is because if they were any other choir some smartass would start a unnecessarily long thread demanding to know why they aren't Cherubim. :) Ben ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 10:22:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Faith (from: The Glory of Islam) - --- Matthew Gerber wrote: > The idea of faith as a stubborn insistence that the world > must conform to > one's preconceptions turns faith on its head. Faith is > not the statement > that "X is true, regardless of what clear reality > demonstrates"; it is the > statement that "when we can see clearly, we will see that > X is true". Another way of putting it -- faith is belief in the absence of proof. Belief in the face of disproof is not faith, it's delusion. By that definition, many scientific principles require faith (evolution, for starters, which is not yet proven despite what they teach in public schools). That definition is also why I have problems with the AA of Faith being an Elohite. =====

Michael Walton, #US2002023848

"If you succeed, you will make some false friends and some true enemies. Succeed anyway." - -- Bishop David M. Copeland

__________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 15:25:44 -0400 From: "Josh Moger" Subject: Re: IN> Faith (from: The Glory of Islam) That definition is also why I have problems with >the AA of Faith being an Elohite. > I explained my opinion in a months-earlier bit about the same topic (haven't been on here for a full year, yet, but I'm seeing seasons already pop up), but I'd love to add my two pennies back in. So, consider Faith. Faith is what you have when you fervently believe in something, but don't have proof. Not really. You might not even have evidence, or you might have even have evidence to the contrary. Like the idea of God. The infallibility of God. God is all-good, all-powerful, all-loving, merciful, etc. Right? So what's the deal with the demons? Well, that's freewill. But if there's freewill, how can God be omnipotent (Stop right there. Put down the medieval philosophy. You with Calvin, back away. I'm serious, I'm rigged for a theological explosion and I'm ready to blow!)? To get back on point, how can the AA of Faith NOT be an Elohite? Elohim are perfectly balanced. Between their emotions. Between their views. Between subjectivity and objectivity. And between doubt and belief. They've seen demons. They've seen what should have been a perfect Symphony go horribly awry. They've seen horrors conducted in God's name by the very beings God has placed so high. But still they believe. The upper three choirs are too rigidly set in Heaven. Seraphim know. Cherubim love. Ofanim trust. The lower three choirs are too rigidly set about humanity. Malakim can't doubt. Kyriotates are too busy. Mercurians are far too much within the flow of humanity to doubt. Elohim though... believe. They have Faith. If they lose their Faith, they have to rely on their own subjectivity, and they go insane so very quickly. Faith is far too important for anyone *but* an Elohite. Or a Bright Lilim. ^_^' Josh ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 16:33:14 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> word reach (was Re: IN> Word-bound reliever) At 5:28 PM -0700 10/9/02, Jim Burzelic wrote: >> Now, if you're going to have someone "steal" an old >> Word, you'll need >> Lucifer to re-grant that Word, and all the >> Word-friction that encompasses. >> You might want to acquire the Game Master's Guide, >> which has a chapter on >> Words... O:> >I'll do that, soon as I get my moenyless hands on >Liber Reliquarum. (Liber R? It's the GMG you want... I suggest eBay -- occasionally some very cheap copies come up there.) >So, Having a Demon of Ether(drug) >and Demon of Ether(old concept for space) would be two >separate demons without any problems? Yes. Ether the drug is that stuff that knocks you out. Ether-space is something you get with old texts, fiction, and Space 1889 (IIRC.) >And just to clarify, the above would not work >canonically? Not canonically, no. Not unless Lucifer saw fit to make the demon the Demon of Things Called Ether In English. He might; his sense of humor is obnoxious, and as well, he might want to see what would happen. Is this a powerful enough combination that he should do it more often? Will it annoy Heaven? Has the Demon of Ether (drug) annoyed him? - --Beth, arcangel@io.com / archangel@sjgames.com In Nomine Line Editor http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 16:42:09 -0400 From: Rolland Therrien Subject: IN> On Khalid Thank you all for the responses to my earlier post. I think I have a better understanding of the elements that make up Canon Khalid now. I still need to go out and buy the Superiors Book with Khalid himself, but I think I understand enough for a new mental picture of him. Let's see: First of all, Laurence's promotion to Commander of the Host before Khalid. I can see Khalid being a tad disappointed, and probably confused at God's selection of his less experienced younger brother. So Khalid, suffering from a slight crisis of faith, starts to wonder if God has a different purpose in mind for him. And then, Gabriel pays Mohammed a visit and Islam is born. Suddenly, Khalid gives himself a mental slap on the forehead and realizes: "But of course! God didn't assign me the command of the entire Host, so that I may devote myself on watcing over this new Faith that he commanded Gabriel to found. I make this vow to Allah, that I shall protect and tend to this new faith, to build an empire of faith on Earth, matching the magnificence of Heaven.." And so Khalid begins to narrow his focus on this new religion and the empire of the Faithful which builds it's foundations on it. At first, he has quite a bit of help from heaven: Gabriel, of course, but also Marc (always eager to find new trading lines), Jean (who appreciated the Muslim's labor in scientific discoveries) and Eli (the original french game had him linked to Islam anyway, and I figured the magnificent works of art of the Islamic world would be something he'd like). And for a time, it actually works. The Empire of Islam manages to unite as big a global area as the Roman Empire did, creating a large region of civilized influence, united by a Divine faith rivaling, if not surpassing Christianity itself. Of course, that unification in itself erks Malphas, who then decides to sow the seeds of discord amongst the sons of Uriel. Or maybe Baal sees an opportunity to set the forces of Heaven against one another. Or maybe Kronos sees a way to lure Khalid to his Fate. Either way, I'm sure the Crusades were at least partially inspired by Hell. ...Or at least twisted by Hell to foster the atrocities that occured. Nevertheless, the result of the Crusades was the formation of a rift between Christianity and Islam, a rift that would sour the relationship between the two sons of Uriel. I'm still sketchy about some details, but is that a good assesment of how to handle Khalid? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 17:15:25 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: RE: IN> Firemen Questions At 8:23 PM +0300 10/9/02, Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW) wrote: >AA Beth also pointed out that one might die, and the other could still keep >tabs on her. I still think that is planning for failure. Who's going to >kill them? Gabriel? If she wants them out of the picture, I'm pretty sure >she can do it. If someone else tries to take one of them out of the >picture, they are risking getting Gabriel's attention. This would be bad in >anyone's definition of the word. So, is there something else escaping me >here, or is this only because we plan on one of them getting soul killed by >Gabby when she's pissed off? There is, purely and simply, the fact that sometimes you need to be calling for reinforcements (i.e., Yves) at the same time you're doing something else. Two Cherubim keep each other centered. (Think about trailing after Gabby on your own -- a tad demoralizing, even for a Cherub, like as not.) Two Cherubim mean that if one's busy, the other can call for help. Two Cherubim mean that they can tag-team people who might annoy the Archangel. Two Cherubim can watch two different exits to a building. Two Cherubim can have someone looking for her inside a building and one watching outside. Two Cherubim mean twice as many targets to nuke if you're Belial and you want to try to ambush Gabriel and not have reinforcements come to her aid. Three Cherubim would be better for some things, but a more unweildy group. Two Cherubim, in harmony, do not need to have the voting that Dominicans do. Two CHERUBIM are two Guardians, undistracted by smiting evil or protecting hosts, focused soley on their job. Yves wants two Cherubim on her tail, Yves gets two Cherubim on her tail. Keeping up with that tail is hard, so they get the Ofanite resonance as well. (Hyper Cherubim; I wonder if their celestial forms are those of winged ferrets... *poing*) Maybe they can't keep up when she's in superhypermode, but they can _get_ there more quickly, and she's not always traveling at Mach Speeds. Having the Ofanite resonance allows them to be fireproof, too, which makes it harder for Belial or over-reaching demons of Fire to take them out. Now, the _CORE_ of the matter is that the Marches said two, said Cherubim, implied that they have the Ofanite resonance, the current Line Editor thinks that Two is a perfectly reasonable number, made sure that S3 gave their Ofanite resonance, and sees no reason to change it. Anyone may change anything for their own games, of course, but griping about it in ways that suggest one wishes the canon would change for one's own personal tastes is counterproductive. Anyone who wants to become the Line Editor -- where changing canon for personal tastes may have merit -- may take that matter up with Steve Jackson. If there is a flamewar going on, it needs to stop before I start unsubscribing people... - --Beth, arcangel@io.com / archangel@sjgames.com In Nomine Line Editor http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 17:06:07 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> An appropriate punishment? At 1:58 PM -0500 10/9/02, Joe Reimers wrote: >At 03:15 PM 10/8/2002 -0400, you wrote: >>"There's cooperation, and there's failing to use your Ethereal Forces, [...] >This may sound stereotypical, but in this case, Ethereal FORCE would be >more appropriate. [...] *laugh* If he was playing in character, then he should be let off relatively lightly. O:> With much pained sighing from his Superior, like as not? - --Beth, arcangel@io.com / archangel@sjgames.com In Nomine Line Editor http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 14:13:24 -0700 From: " Cameron McCurry" Subject: RE: IN> Firemen Questions On Thu, 10 Oct 2002 17:15:25 -0400 Elizabeth McCoy said unto us: >>(Hyper Cherubim; I wonder if their celestial forms are those of winged ferrets... *poing*) I just have this horrid image in my head now... "Gabriel's in trouble! I need to summon Yves and-oooh! Shiny!" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 15:53:29 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Faith (from: The Glory of Islam) Michael Walton wrote: > Another way of putting it -- faith is belief in the >absence of proof. Belief in the face of disproof is not >faith, it's delusion. By that definition, many scientific >principles require faith (evolution, for starters, which >is not yet proven despite what they teach in public >schools). > > * - -David (* that's the sound of me stifling a violent outburst and walking away from my computer before I turn into a Habbalite. Stop trolling with comments that are deliberately inaccurate.) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 14:57:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Faith - --- Josh Moger wrote: > Elohim though... believe. They have Faith. > > If they lose their Faith, they have to rely on their own > subjectivity, and they go insane so very quickly. Interesting viewpoint, and well put. My disagreement is based on this; belief in the absence of proof can only derive from experience. Experience is innately subjective. Subjectivity is Dissonant for Elohim. =====

Michael Walton, #US2002023848

"If you succeed, you will make some false friends and some true enemies. Succeed anyway." - -- Bishop David M. Copeland

__________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 14:59:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> On Khalid - --- Rolland Therrien wrote: > So Khalid, suffering from a slight crisis of faith, > starts to wonder if God > has a different purpose in mind for him. And then, > Gabriel pays Mohammed a > visit and Islam is born. Suddenly, Khalid gives himself > a mental slap on > the forehead and realizes: "But of course! God didn't > assign me the command > of the entire Host, so that I may devote myself on > watcing over this new > Faith that he commanded Gabriel to found. [snip] > I'm still sketchy about some details, but is that a good > assesment of how to handle Khalid? Sounds all right to me. =====

Michael Walton, #US2002023848

"If you succeed, you will make some false friends and some true enemies. Succeed anyway." - -- Bishop David M. Copeland

__________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 18:36:16 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Fwd: Lilim and stuff From: BC Petery, Oct7 >Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 07:46:17 -0500 >Subject: BOUNCE in_nomine-l@lists.io.com: Admin request of type /^\s*index\s+\S+\s*$/i at line 8 > >Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 08:39:09 -0400 >Subject: IN> Lilim and stuff >From: BC Petery > >> Would you have the same objection to offering resonances to other redeemed >> demons, or only to Lilim? > >I'm not saying they shouldn't get them, but they shouldn't be an inducement >to redeem. > >Now that reminds me of something I read about Redemption. (checks Big Blue's >i n d e x ...) > >"Also, while the newly-redeemed demon is not given the advantages of the >Archangel's Choir attunements, ..." (IN p60) > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 18:39:57 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Ferret-Cherubim At 2:13 PM -0700 10/10/02, Cameron McCurry wrote: >On Thu, 10 Oct 2002 17:15:25 -0400 Elizabeth McCoy said unto >us: > >>>(Hyper Cherubim; I wonder if their celestial forms are those of winged >ferrets... *poing*) > >I just have this horrid image in my head now... >"Gabriel's in trouble! I need to summon Yves and-oooh! Shiny!" *bow* My work here is, if not done, at least to quota... - --Beth's SSO .sig: (Want to hear more about the Superior Soap Opera? http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IN-SoapOpera ) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 18:50:39 -0400 From: "Josh Moger" Subject: Re: IN> Faith (from: The Glory of Islam) > >* > > >-David (* that's the sound of me stifling a violent outburst and walking >away from my computer before I turn into a Habbalite. Stop trolling with >comments that are deliberately inaccurate.) > ::in shock that David's an Elohite. I thought for sure I had him pegged as a Malakite:: Josh ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 17:33:30 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Faith (from: The Glory of Islam) Josh Moger wrote: >>* >> >> >>-David (* that's the sound of me stifling a violent outburst and walking >>away from my computer before I turn into a Habbalite. Stop trolling with >>comments that are deliberately inaccurate.) >> >> >> >::in shock that David's an Elohite. I thought for sure I had him pegged as >a Malakite:: > > You jest. I've always been much more Elohitish, with a tendency towards Habbalism when I'm feeling cranky. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 17:35:38 -0600 From: sirea@softhome.net Subject: Re: IN> INverse Superior- Michael, Demon King of War So deeply that even he has forgotten that > his Word in this dark inverted Symphony... > > > is Jealousy. > > > > Josh > (Actually, that was just a series of thoughts I had last night. More a > reason for his Fall and so forth than what I was going to contribute > earlier. That'll come in a few minutes. It's not much, but it's something > and it might contribute to the Ethereal history of INverse.) > Josh, thank you for writing this. May I adapt this to my growing history of INverse? This is an excellent reason for Michael's Fall that I never would had thought of. Jealousy of Worded angels and Lucifer makes very good sense, for an underlying motivation, other than Pride and the desire to rule as Firstborn. I had forgot that Michael is not Worded until the Fall, and this fits in nicely with the skeleton of the framework I have so far. Again, thank you. And I look forward to your next contribution to the history. I plan to write a lot of it and submit it soon, so ethereal can become more corporeal ^_^ I have ground work for all the AA's and DP's, and some history, but I need to bind it together... --- Sirea, Free Cherub IST Destiny, Angel who Wanders, petitioner for the Word of Eternity ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 17:36:56 -0600 From: sirea@softhome.net Subject: Re: IN> Ferret-Cherubim >>>>(Hyper Cherubim; I wonder if their celestial forms are those of winged >>ferrets... *poing*) >> >>I just have this horrid image in my head now... >>"Gabriel's in trouble! I need to summon Yves and-oooh! Shiny!" > > *bow* My work here is, if not done, at least to quota... > Ooo! I wanna Ferret-Cherub :D is there an Angel of Hyperactivity? Drat... too bad that only an Ofanite would get that Word. --- Sirea, Free Cherub IST Destiny, Angel who Wanders, petitioner for the Word of Eternity ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 19:46:47 -0400 From: "Josh Moger" Subject: Re: IN> INverse Superior- Michael, Demon King of War >So deeply that even he has forgotten that >> his Word in this dark inverted Symphony... >> >> >> is Jealousy. >> >> >> >> Josh >> (Actually, that was just a series of thoughts I had last night. More a >> reason for his Fall and so forth than what I was going to contribute >> earlier. That'll come in a few minutes. It's not much, but it's something >> and it might contribute to the Ethereal history of INverse.) >> > >Josh, thank you for writing this. May I adapt this to my growing history of >INverse? This is an excellent reason for Michael's Fall that I never would >had thought of. Aw shucks. Course. Enjoy. And I'll throw the Azt-... I mean I write a bit of the rest in a couple of hours, after I grab some dinner. Josh ^_^' ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 16:56:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: IN> I'm going to Shorecon this weekend... ...is anybody else? It's at the Cherry Hill Hilton in Cherry Hill, NJ. If I get enough people, I could run a pickup game (hint, hint)... ;) Moe ===== Liber Licentiae Moeticae: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 09/18/02 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 18:48:47 -0600 From: sirea@softhome.net Subject: IN> Renegade Archangels- Plot Seed (Upon pondering the nature of Habbalah, their delusions, and the story of Makatiel, I decided to come up with a small plot seed idea thingy...) Vapula, as has been noted several times throughout the years, is insane. Even for a Habbalite, Vapula is mad enough to have shown time and time again that he is willing to risk the fabric of reality itself just to see what happens when something goes boom. As can be imagined, many of the other Princes find this annoying, if useful, as they manipulate the "Archangel" of Technology into doing what they want and don't want... and let the poor Habbalite try to find God within his personal symphony of twisted theories and ideas. The Princes of Hell should have spent more time looking on the inside of Vapula's head rather than what it produced. Not too long ago, Vapula decided to research a little into the history and psychology of the Dead Princes of Hell, and in specific that day, Makatiel, the only other Habbalite aside from Vapula and Fleurity that had ever ascended to Princehood. The Genius Archangel spent long hours pouring over old documents he managed to liberate from the Halls of the Game, reading about Makatiel and his mannerisms, his desires and goals, and even some of how his mind worked. What Vapula found fascinated him, especially parts where it spoke of the days before he went Renegade and was hunted down by the Game and Judgment. This soon began to go to Vapula's head, and he spent many hours studying the mechanics of Makatiel's motivations, and began to spend much time speaking with Fleurity on the matter. A few weeks later, Vapula had come to a conclusion. It seems that the mind of a Habbalite, when it undergoes a Superior state change, begins to erode as the desire to serve God and the status of an Infernal Archangel begins to grate against each other in a way that can only be reconciled by the Habbalite removing himself from Hell, to operate on his own so that he may properly serve his Word as God would have him do. To the exclusion of other projects, the Prince of Technology spent much time looking over everything he could about Makatiel, and made several calculations, all while speaking with Fleurity on the matter as Choir-mates. Eventually, Vapula managed to calculate the exact process of mind-erosion, based upon level of Word power and personal events. Much to his surprise, the Archangel discovered that Fleurity was right on schedule for a reconciliation, and Vapula himself was quite a few years overdue. Vapula spent the next month in quiet contemplation, telling his Servitors that he had an important project to attend to, and he was not to be bothered. One month later, quietly and without warning, Vapula gathered up all the materials he needed, told his Servitors that he was leaving Hell for good to go serve his God, and vanished from his laboratory for the Corporeal Plane. To quote Sparky (if you have him IYC) "Aw shit." *PLOT SEEDS* Note to Self- Strike Head Against Wall: With the disappearance of Vapula, who is now a Renegade on the Corporeal Plane, with much of his best technology and Servitors in tow, Asmodeus has had a minor heart attack and declared a complete man hunt for the Renegade Prince. All Servitors of the Game are hunting down Servitors of Technology, and while this isn't as big a deal as Makatiel was, Asmodeus is still hitting himself. Characters who are Demons of the Game or Technology will get the most out of this, as will Angels of Judgment, once Dominic gets the word from Asmodeus. You can be hunting and killing Vapulians, or be on the run from Game and Judgment Servitors. Vapula is very hard to find (his Invocation chance is now 1) and he too is on the run, and much better prepared than Makatiel ever was. Turn On, Tune In, Drop Out (of Hell that is): Vapula -did- speak with Fleurity on the matter, and he -was- projected as being "ready to serve God properly" (aka Makatiel Syndrome), and with the attention of the Game averted, Fleurity and his Servitors may choose to go Renegade and serve God the way they were -meant- to. As a Minor Prince, no one will notice much, but with the Word of Drugs, Fleurity may be more like Makatiel in his behavior, culling mankind with his unique creations. Infernal Paperwork Hoedown: Before Vapula went Renegade, he needed certain papers from the Game's offices on the details of Makatiel's fiasco, and the Genius Archangel may need his special Servitors (the PC's) to sneak into the ranks of the Game and try to liberate the secret files for their Prince to study, so that he may get proper results. He may even ask for any remaining Forces of Makatiel that Asmodeus may have in his trophy collection! Daddy Walked Out on Me: Servitors of the Media are going to be in hot water, Nybbas especially- after all, he IS the son of Vapula and a former Servitor of Technology, and he may have had something to do with his going Renegade! Nybbas may be toasting Servitors of Technology, -recruiting- ones who don't want to become fodder for the Game, and yelling at his own demons to get on the ball and make sure that the image of the Media is cleaner than a baby Uriel's behind. Vapulan Doomsday Device(tm): Maybe Vapula -isn't- less of a threat than Makatiel was. Maybe he's up there to do God's work by unleashing his GREATEST CREATION EVER!! MWA HA HA HA!!!(tm) upon the unsuspecting populace, wreaking havoc upon the Corporeal Plane. Oh sure, Makatiel had diseases up the yin-yang, but Vapula has BOMBS! And buttons, lots and lots of shiny, beautiful buttons to push! Why Do You Hate Us God?: Heaven, of course, will be in an uproar. Laurence and David will be hunting for Vapula's head, Jean may even -smile- when he gets the news, Michael will be demon hunting on principle, and Novalis will want to be trying to mass-Redeem all the newly Renegade Servitors, and maybe even try to get to Vapula himself, with the hopes that he wants to Redeem! Either way, it's gonna be messy, ESPECIALLY if you have Fleurity go Renegade soon afterwards. And lets not forget Dominic is working with Azzy. Why Do You Hate Us God? Wait, Don't Answer That One: Hell, of COURSE, will be in an uproar. The one supplier of important technological devices aside from Nybbas is now gone, about to do Lucifer knows what on the Corporeal Plane, and there's the matter of there being a massive political vacuum. Tartarus is abandoned, damned souls are running free, and demons of Technology are running like a chicken with it's head cut off. There will be major repercussions. Scavenger Hunt: A lot of other Princes will see this as a chance to gain power or do stuff that they can't normally get away with the Game breathing down their necks. And since Tartarus is abandoned... well... aside from the really good stuff Vapula took with him, there's a TON of artifacts and devices still in the Principality all ripe for the taking! Servitors of Greed, and demons who are Hostile to Vapula, will be very interested in acquiring stuff that's still there. Eli, Savior of People Who Don't Want to Be Blown Up: Maybe this is the reason why Eli left Heaven- he was preparing to face Vapula and Fleurity when they finally went Renegade, and is now going to confront the Archangels, so that he may either destroy them or try to save them. What's that? Dominic is probably going to run into Eli because of this? An unfortunate side effect of the interacting events I'm afraid. Okay, So I'm -Not- an Angel, You Happy?: Maybe, just maybe, Vapula is really trying to get to Heaven so that he may Redeem. Maybe when a Habbalite is a Superior for too long, they realize the Truth, and will try to make a run for it to Redeem or go out in smoke and fire. Maybe this is what happened to Makatiel, and Dominic simply failed to see the Truth before the Prince of Disease was killed. Maybe. (Done! So, commments, questions, additions, complaints? I basically made this on the idea that all Habbalah Princes eventually go Renegade from being unable to reconcile their Superior status and Habbalah delusions properly, and like Makatiel, will go Renegade so they can "serve God" the "proper" way. Hope you liked.) --- Sirea, Free Cherub IST Destiny, Angel who Wanders, petitioner for the Word of Eternity ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 18:55:52 -0600 From: sirea@softhome.net Subject: Re: IN> INverse Superior- Michael, Demon King of War > Aw shucks. Course. Enjoy. And I'll throw the Azt-... I mean I write a bit > of the rest in a couple of hours, after I grab some dinner. Well alright then ;D if you'd like to write anything else for the world also, just ask and I'll give the details, I'd love anyone who'd like to help or contribute. I'm really trying to make this work :) --- Sirea, Free Cherub IST Destiny, Angel who Wanders, petitioner for the Word of Eternity ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 02:04:50 +0100 From: "Nick Ashton" Subject: RE: IN> An appropriate punishment? What is Vilson/Vapula up to with the Tokomak anyway? From the text in RevI its not seeing any active service but derives its status from 'dark experiments on human subjects to answer some questions for Vapula about the nature of physical reality'. What, they chucked some humies in a tokomak to see what would happen, and now its gone 'a bit dark' (it doesn't actually say 'tether' anywhere either)? I can't see the AA of Lightning being opposed to tokomaks in general, so why are his servitors so keen to see this one shut down (as comments relating to the loss of destinies apply as much to a closed off tokomak as to a destroyed one). So what's Vap doing with his tokamak now? Hmm I wonder... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 18:08:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Fade the Cat Subject: Re: IN> Renegade Archangels- Plot Seed - --- sirea@softhome.net wrote: BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! That was...that was downright Moe-worthy. Oh, the ideas, the ideas! Beautiful. I love it. _____________________________________________________________ Sluggy.Net: The Sluggy Freelance Community! _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 18:13:48 -0700 From: Kish Subject: Re: IN> Faith (from: The Glory of Islam) Michael Walton wrote: > > --- Matthew Gerber wrote: > > The idea of faith as a stubborn insistence that the world > > must conform to > > one's preconceptions turns faith on its head. Faith is > > not the statement > > that "X is true, regardless of what clear reality > > demonstrates"; it is the > > statement that "when we can see clearly, we will see that > > X is true". > > Another way of putting it -- faith is belief in the > absence of proof. Belief in the face of disproof is not > faith, it's delusion. By that definition, many scientific > principles require faith You don't have to believe in scientific principles, as such. Nor are you supposed to. You're just supposed to believe that they're what fits the best available evidence. Faith, by Matthew's definition as I understand it, means active belief in the absence of evidence. No room for, "I believe the best available evidence indicates that God created the world"--either you believe God created the world, period, or you don't have faith. Science, at least ideally, should be able to change and adapt painlessly. Faith can't. If it was proven tomorrow that species didn't evolve, it might hurt people (including scientists) who have personal investments in evolution but it wouldn't hurt science. If it was proven tomorrow that the Christian God does not exist, Christianity would be mortally wounded. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 22:58:04 -0400 From: "Josh Moger" Subject: Re: IN> Renegade Archangels- Plot Seed /twitch/ >To quote Sparky (if you have him IYC) > >"Aw shit." > hheeeh ehe eheheh ehe hahah ah ahHahahah ahah hahaHh ahahAH HAHAH AHAHA HAHA HA HAH AHAHAHAHAHAHA ::gasp:: AH AHA HAHA HAHAHAHAHAH HA HAH AH AHAHA! ROFLSHIATSH (Rolling on floor laughing so hard I am taking soul hits) >*PLOT SEEDS* > >Note to Self- Strike Head Against Wall: >Turn On, Tune In, Drop Out (of Hell that is): > >Infernal Paperwork Hoedown:> >Daddy Walked Out on Me:> /snort/ >Vapulan Doomsday Device(tm): Maybe Vapula -isn't- less of a threat than >Makatiel was. Maybe he's up there to do God's work by unleashing his >GREATEST CREATION EVER!! MWA HA HA HA!!!(tm) upon the unsuspecting populace, >wreaking havoc upon the Corporeal Plane. Oh sure, Makatiel had diseases up >the yin-yang, but Vapula has BOMBS! And buttons, lots and lots of shiny, >beautiful buttons to push! > HMmmmmppph... heh e hee... sorry sorry. Trying to contain myself but this is great. Really great. >Why Do You Hate Us God?: >Why Do You Hate Us God? Wait, Don't Answer That One: >Eli, Savior of People Who Don't Want to Be Blown Up: >Okay, So I'm -Not- an Angel, You Happy?: > This NEEDS to be used as a series of titles, not for plot seed, but for books. >(Done! So, commments, questions, additions, complaints? I basically made >this on the idea that all Habbalah Princes eventually go Renegade from being >unable to reconcile their Superior status and Habbalah delusions properly, >and like Makatiel, will go Renegade so they can "serve God" the "proper" >way. Hope you liked.) Great conclusions drawn about Habbalite Superiors. Interesting to see how the Superior change affects other Bands or even Choirs. And the plot seeds were great. All in all, excellent. And thanks for the laugh. Josh ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 23:00:09 -0400 From: "Josh Moger" Subject: Re: IN> Renegade Archangels- Plot Seed >That was...that was downright Moe-worthy. Oh, the ideas, the ideas! > I actually have to add to this along with my original response. When I was reading this, I could definitely have seen it on Moe's page. It was really that inventive. Hmm... Moe awards? (ducking the shrapnel as a number of otherwise very nice and sane people go berserk at the sign of fannishness.) Josh ------------------------------ Date: 10 Oct 2002 23:33:08 -0400 From: Gerald Sears Subject: Re: IN> Ferret-Cherubim I wanna play a ferret ofanite! I wanna play a ferret offanite! Oooh Oooh ooohh oooh Ferret FERRET! On Thu, 2002-10-10 at 19:36, sirea@softhome.net wrote: > >>>>(Hyper Cherubim; I wonder if their celestial forms are those of winged > >>ferrets... *poing*) > >> > >>I just have this horrid image in my head now... > >>"Gabriel's in trouble! I need to summon Yves and-oooh! Shiny!" > > > > *bow* My work here is, if not done, at least to quota... > > > > Ooo! I wanna Ferret-Cherub :D is there an Angel of Hyperactivity? Drat... > too bad that only an Ofanite would get that Word. > > --- > Sirea, Free Cherub IST Destiny, Angel who Wanders, petitioner for the Word > of Eternity - -- Gerald Sears ------------------------------ Date: 10 Oct 2002 23:48:38 -0400 From: Gerald Sears Subject: Re: IN> Ferret-Cherubim Wait a tick... On Ferret Angels A. There should be Ferret Cherubim out there. They are winged animals. B. Are not there songs out there to allow Celestials to breed with one another? C. Would the result of such Breeding be cast out of Heaven? D. Just imagine a Ferret Cherubim/Ofanite Cross? What would that child look like? A flaming ever moving wheel shaped like aferret? What? On Thu, 2002-10-10 at 23:33, Gerald Sears wrote: > I wanna play a ferret ofanite! I wanna play a ferret offanite! Oooh > Oooh ooohh oooh Ferret FERRET! > > On Thu, 2002-10-10 at 19:36, sirea@softhome.net wrote: > > >>>>(Hyper Cherubim; I wonder if their celestial forms are those of winged > > >>ferrets... *poing*) > > >> > > >>I just have this horrid image in my head now... > > >>"Gabriel's in trouble! I need to summon Yves and-oooh! Shiny!" > > > > > > *bow* My work here is, if not done, at least to quota... > > > > > > > Ooo! I wanna Ferret-Cherub :D is there an Angel of Hyperactivity? Drat... > > too bad that only an Ofanite would get that Word. > > > > --- > > Sirea, Free Cherub IST Destiny, Angel who Wanders, petitioner for the Word > > of Eternity > -- > Gerald Sears - -- Gerald Sears ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2814 ********************************