in_nomine-digest Wednesday, October 16 2002 Volume 01 : Number 2823 In this digest: Re: IN> INverse Superior: Makatiel, Elohite Archangel of Life Re: IN> INverse Superior: Makatiel, Elohite Archangel of Life RE: IN> INverse Superior: Makatiel, Elohite Archangel of Life Re: IN> INverse Superior: Makatiel, Elohite Archangel of Life Re: IN> Faith (from: The Glory of Islam) Re: IN> Computation in Heaven... (Re: Faith) Re: IN> Digitates -- The Patterns, New Choir Re: IN> Faith/DP of Fanaticism Re: IN> Fallen Bands Revised Re: IN> INverse Superior: Makatiel, Elohite Archangel of Life Re: Barbael, Kyriotate Archangel of Faith (was Re: IN> Faith Varient Archangels of) Re: IN> Fallen Bands Revised Re: IN> [DAWN] And With Daylight Comes Illumination Re: IN> Candi, Demon of Blonde Re: IN> New Discord IN> outcasting = silly. Re: IN> INverse Superior: Makatiel, Elohite Archangel of Life Re: IN> outcasting = silly. Re: IN> outcasting = silly. Re: IN> outcasting = silly. Re: IN> outcasting = silly. Re: IN> INverse Superior: Makatiel, Elohite Archangel of Life Re: IN> INverse Superior: Makatiel, Elohite Archangel of Life RE: IN> INverse Superior: Makatiel, Elohite Archangel of Life Re: IN> outcasting = silly. Re: IN> INverse Superior: Makatiel, Elohite Archangel of Life Re: IN> outcasting = silly. Re: IN> outcasting = silly. Re: IN> Fallen Bands Revised Re: IN> outcasting = silly. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 10:6:43 -0400 From: "Cameron McCurry" Subject: Re: IN> INverse Superior: Makatiel, Elohite Archangel of Life >>The problem is that they can walk into a room and know who's Human and who's not without any doubt. No other power in IN offers that. Calabite of Saminga's ability to know how much damage someone can take before they die would be another example. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 09:21:10 -0500 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> INverse Superior: Makatiel, Elohite Archangel of Life - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cameron McCurry" To: "In Nomine List" Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 9:00 AM Subject: Re: IN> INverse Superior: Makatiel, Elohite Archangel of Life [snip] > Calabite of Saminga's ability to know how much damage someone can take > before they die would be another example. Likewise for the Impudite of Technology artifact glasses -- if he's got 7+ Essence showing, he's *extremely* unlikely to be human. That's just one from a whole page full of ways Beth listed on how to use various resonances, attunements, and songs to spot celestials in Vessels. http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/articles/Tips/perception.html - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 10:23:57 -0400 From: "Wajenberg, Earl" Subject: RE: IN> INverse Superior: Makatiel, Elohite Archangel of Life >>The problem is that they can walk into a room and know who's Human and who's not without any doubt. No other power in IN offers that. I believe there's a list of angel-tricks on the SJGames IN pages, which can give very good hints about who's celestial. Things like a Mercurian resonnating, discovering your social network, and finding your boss is Baal, or a Malakite scanning your list of sins and finding "rejected the grace of God and fell from Heaven." Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 10:38:51 -0400 From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> INverse Superior: Makatiel, Elohite Archangel of Life At 10:06 AM 10/16/2002 -0400, Cameron McCurry wrote: >Calabite of Saminga's ability to know how much damage someone can take >before they die would be another example. Even then, though, my character in Moe's game (2CorF, Vessel/2, 3 Str) wouldn't necessarily ping as a celestial; a fairly strong human would have just as many Body hits, and one with Toughness might take even more to die. (I'll grant that the strongest possible "normal" human only has 50 Body hits, and can take an additional 12 before they die; celestials can have more than *twice* as many.) On the other hand, these Ofanim can flat-out determine how long it will be before someone dies (barring celestial interference); whether this detects the vessel's death or soul-death, using this on a celestial *by necessity* involves celestial interference, and the attunement would likely return an "ineffable" result - thus becoming an automatic celestial-detector. I don't agree with Michael's statement that these Ofanim could walk into a room and detect all of the celestials therein, though; even the most powerful unWorded Ofanite could only do this four times before needing to recharge. (Note the 4-Essence cost.) Keeping the "wheel of life" motif, but dropping the celestial-detector: Ofanim: An Ofanite of Life has limited control over the disposition of souls: although he cannot redirect a soul to a particular plane, he can stop it from being discorporated entirely. When one of these Ofanim personally witnesses a death, he may - within (Celestial Forces) rounds of the death - expend Essence equal to the dying target's total Forces to force the soul to reincarnate instead of dispersing into the Symphony. He can *only* do this with a mortal death, and can further not affect those souls who have met their destiny or their fate (but *can* affect those who have met both!) - the attunement will simply fail to work (and the Essence will not be lost). Goodcheer, EDG ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 10:36:38 -0400 From: Matthew Gerber Subject: Re: IN> Faith (from: The Glory of Islam) On 10/11/02 3:15 AM, "Julian Mensch" wrote: > The motive of science is to discern truth. (Technology > is the study of _applying_ truth, and I feel that many > "scientists" are really technologists, but that's beside > the point.) The methodology by which science comes up > with it's postulates (ideally) reflect this, being both > objective and validated through induction. Wasn't it nice back when _Popular Science_ and _Popular Mechanics_ were still actually different magazines? One more reason to put Nybbas against the wall. > The motive of faith is different. The vast majority* of > the faithful believe what they believe for some reason > other then the desire to believe truth. Faith fills a kind > of emotional need in the human psyche, at least so I would > speculate. If we want to use loaded language, we can, and > from either side; faith is either the "opiate of the Masses" > or the only thing which can fill "a God-shaped hole in the > soul." But the basic concept is the same; the motive for > faith is an emotional need. I disagree that there's this fundamental a difference in character. It is true that faith fills an emotional need. However, unless the seeker in question is just looking for something fluffy with wings to look up at, that need is in and of itself for truth: the divination of sensible truth--laws and theorems, if you will--about how the intangible aspects of one's life can be ordered. Now, since faith is less precise than science, these "laws" and "theorems" generally take a more principle-based form, but these principles are nonetheless applicable. In other words, no, faith *isn't* there just to make you feel better. (If it were, then heck no, the Word could never, *ever* be held by an Elohite. Mercurian, or maybe Cherub. Or maybe Kyriotate again.) Conversely, if someone has no emotional desire to understand truth, I don't see why they'd be a scientist as opposed to a technologist; the farther you are from the former and the closer you are to the latter, the better you get paid, almost as a perfect sliding scale. I'm not saying the emotion has to be bound up in the process of discovery, I'm saying that something has to drive the desire for discovery in the first place. And most scientists that I know (including myself) do have this first-principles appreciation for the beauty of what they study. (I've never done much with Jean, but this would be fairly core to my version of him. Quietly, of course; there's no need to speak about to his Servitors, since they already understand it. It is quite fortunate when a major part of one's solemn, clear and necessary duty is equally a source of beauty and wonder. Lightning indeed....) I'll let this stand as response to the various iterations of the "rationality of motive" point. It's a good point, but I don't think it holds up in the final analysis. > Because of this, it is my opinion that faith is not in > itself a rational discipline, as the motivation that most > people have for believing the tenets of faith is not a > motive that is in the spirit of genuine rational inquiry. > Now, there are some people who make a very sincere effort > to believe thing which are both emotionally fulfilling in > the sense of faith, and logically rigourous as rational > truths; Thomas Aquinas being the poster boy for this manner > of thinking. Guess who one of Matt's favorite Saints is. Go on. Guess. > But with the modern state of scientific understanding, > it becomes very difficult to believe all the tenets of one > of the major world religions from a genuinely rationalistic > motive, unless you either take the "it's all just metaphor" > tack that essentially boils Christianity down to Bible- > flavoured generic theism or seriously exercize your Habba- > logic muscles. IOW, it doesn't matter how good a logical > argument you present to support a belief; if your motive > for believing is not rational, the belief itself isn't > rational (in the sense of being in the spirit of objective > search for truth) either, no matter how sound the justi- > fications are. The second point, again, I tried to address above. As for the first, be careful that you don't set up a straw man. In general, the fact that noise inevitably comes along with signal does not mean that signal is noise. Applying, the fact that some people have interpreted faith in ways contrary to established scientific fact does not mean that the faith in question itself stands contrary to science. Applying more specifically and as an example, the fact that some things in the Bible that were thought by tradition to be literal have been revealed to be metaphor does not invalidate Christianity as a whole. To do that, you have to break something along Christianity's "critical path", which most (not all) Christians agree looks like something along the lines of the Apostle's Creed. I really need to... oh, you know by now. (It's coming. Really.) Matt ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 10:40:21 -0400 From: Matthew Gerber Subject: Re: IN> Computation in Heaven... (Re: Faith) On 10/11/02 6:53 PM, "Elizabeth McCoy" wrote: > In (yes, groan now) the SSO, ze computer techie spouse proposed a problem > with one of the Lightning mainframes. It Just Wasn't Working. Turns out > it needed a slower clock-speed, because it used to work just fine in > Heaven -- but in Heaven, Nothing Goes Wrong. In Shangri-La (the half-way > point...), it couldn't function at full supercomputer effiencey. Things *would* work better without that pesky entropy around, wouldn't they? Perhaps this is part of why Jean's so reluctant to let new things out of the box: test all you like, but the Corporeal plane introduces *so* many variables... >> (Trying to put the thought experiment for *this* one together is likely to >> result either in migraine or in Lewis Carroll. Quite possibly both. The >> fact that Maurice Lane may read this suddenly worries me badly. It should, >> quite possibly, worry you too.) > Always. Though in a good way... > I think. Think. Hope. Pray. Matt ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 23:05:40 +0800 From: "Jeffery Watkins" Subject: Re: IN> Digitates -- The Patterns, New Choir > This is a new choir I am working on for my upcoming IN game set in GURPS > Transhuman Space around the year 2100. I need advice on how to handle > these in game and on how to polish them to fit with IN. > > Digitates -- The Patterns > -- > Gerald Sears I know this is late. Catching up on emails now. I loved your idea so much I've adapted it to my game and already started using them. Here is how I adapted them up for the brief description of their choir. Please take a look at their resonance and dissodance conditions as that is what I was guessing at. Digitate. Digitates embody information. They resonance is through informational systems like computers. Fledging at the time the first True AI was created, they function best in the virtual realm of the computer system. Each digitate forms for a specific function be that to be a keyboard or other device to take a superior's commands or to be a relay or a device performing some function in the corporeal realm in a digital vessel. They often accompany other choirs or human solders as guides and information sources taking the role of more mundane AIs. It is dissonant for a Digitate to not perform their function or role. Was this more or less what you had in mind? And/or can anyone suggest ideas? I ran ahead and used one since it was perfect for one player character, a budding soldier of God who wanted a true AI but could no way afford to have one designed, so 'Lira' was given to her by a friend whom she just assumes was a whiz at programming. So the role of this Digitate is as her AI, though if anyone who really knew code took a look at the digitates, would see that it couldn't do what 'Lira' does. That does remind me. I noticed that the one Digitate in the write up was named CD1...is there a naming convention they should go with? Thanks in advance and looking forward to getting caught up! Jeff =) Part of my insanity manifest at JCT, where In Nomine meets science fiction in the far future http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jctrinityRPG - -- __________________________________________________________ Download the FREE Opera browser at www.opera.com/download/ Free OperaMail at http://www.operamail.com/ Powered by Outblaze ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 23:13:08 +0800 From: "Jeffery Watkins" Subject: Re: IN> Faith/DP of Fanaticism >Unhealthy extremes of their former > Word make sense. Considering the circumstances of your fallen Khalid, a > Habbalite Demon "Archangel" Prince of Fanaticism works very well. He's > clung to his gripe and dissatisfaction and it has warped him into > -KNOWING- that he was Right. A Habbalite Khalid might think that he > -was- commissioned to be the Commander of the Host and that he's just > holding a very, very forward command post. Or he's working on building > an army to show Heaven the error of its ways. Or both -- Habbalah are > nutzo. This works so well! Thanks, now Khalid can be even more focused than I had him originally and with the duality that makes him seem as unstable as Gabriel sometimes comes across. *let's see what mode Khalid is in THIS morning* Of course his followers, being fanatical, know he is right, no matter which mentality they encounter from their DP, he is right! Jeff =) Part of my insanity manifest at JCT, where In Nomine meets science fiction in the far future http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jctrinityRPG - -- __________________________________________________________ Download the FREE Opera browser at www.opera.com/download/ Free OperaMail at http://www.operamail.com/ Powered by Outblaze ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 23:36:28 +0800 From: "Jeffery Watkins" Subject: Re: IN> Fallen Bands Revised > I took the time to go over and revise the alternate Bands I made for the > Major Choirs to Fall to, changing mechanics, descriptions, etc, and just > cleaned it all up. I'm hoping to submit them to the Collection for everyone > to use at their leisure, but I wanted to ask people with a mind for > game-balance and such to tell me if the new mechanics are more refined and > sensible. Comments, questions, suggestions and so on are welcomed and hoped > for. Listed here are the Srafhim, the Kirobim, the Vilodim and the Muters.< > Sirea, Magnificient job again! Already thinking of ideas for using the Srafhim and Kirobim, especially the latter among the crew of the exploration ship. ^_^ I particularly liked the example you gave for the Vilodim. Question, about them. Does it have to be up close and personal, or if one was say in a mech (yes, In Anime) firing away at 'defenseless' civilians, would that satisfy them since they couldn't use their strenght resonance? Thanks again for sharing your creativity! Jeff =) Part of my insanity manifest at JCT, where In Nomine meets science fiction in the far future http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jctrinityRPG - -- __________________________________________________________ Download the FREE Opera browser at www.opera.com/download/ Free OperaMail at http://www.operamail.com/ Powered by Outblaze ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 09:42:02 -0600 From: sirea@softhome.net Subject: Re: IN> INverse Superior: Makatiel, Elohite Archangel of Life > Ah, so you were going for major screwage. 0;> You bet ^-^ > The problem is that they can walk into a room and know > who's Human and who's not without any doubt. No other > power in IN offers that. What? Tons of other power offer that, and for substantially less Essence cost o_o > The Corporeal Song of Fruition does that without > producing Nephallim or requiring Grigori to engage in > intimate relations with Mortals. True. > >> And >> wouldn't giving them the Song of ruitation be redundant? > > Not at all. The _Celestial_ Song of Fruition is what > allows Celestials to breed with Mortals. My apologies ^_^ you said the Song of Fruitation without disturbance, and since the Corp version produces none, I thought you were referring to the Celestial version, which Grigori have a built in version of. --- Sirea, Free Cherub IST Destiny, Angel who Wanders, petitioner for the Word of Eternity ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 23:47:13 +0800 From: "Jeffery Watkins" Subject: Re: Barbael, Kyriotate Archangel of Faith (was Re: IN> Faith Varient Archangels of) > > A Kyriotate?!? Wow! That sounds really interesting. Do you have that > > one written up or willing to? > > > BARBAEL > Kyriotate Archangel of Faith > > "The World is made of many paths, but the destination is the same." > Eric A. Burns Wow! Now I AM in a dilemma. Go with the Bright Lilim AA of Faith or this one. I love them both! I particularly like how true the multiple view points about faith Barbael is. Of course, since I also have time travel, I could try to just put them at different points in time.... However, thanks for the write up and the dilemma! ^_^ Jeff =) Part of my insanity manifest at JCT, where In Nomine meets science fiction in the far future http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jctrinityRPG - -- __________________________________________________________ Download the FREE Opera browser at www.opera.com/download/ Free OperaMail at http://www.operamail.com/ Powered by Outblaze ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 09:51:58 -0600 From: sirea@softhome.net Subject: Re: IN> Fallen Bands Revised > Magnificient job again! Already thinking of ideas for using the Srafhim and Kirobim, especially the latter among the crew of the exploration ship. ^_^ Would you like the revised document? I revised all the Bands and cleaned up the writing, and added a couple of things for each, including a little vignette for each Band. > > I particularly liked the example you gave for the Vilodim. Question, about them. Does it have to be up close and personal, or if one was say in a mech (yes, In Anime) firing away at 'defenseless' civilians, would that satisfy them since they couldn't use their strenght resonance? No, they must do it up close and personal, the most impersonal they could get is using a sniper rifle. If they used the mech to pick a human up and crush them in the hand however... > > Thanks again for sharing your creativity! Welcome ^-^ --- Sirea, Free Cherub IST Destiny, Angel who Wanders, petitioner for the Word of Eternity ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 23:56:35 +0800 From: "Jeffery Watkins" Subject: Re: IN> [DAWN] And With Daylight Comes Illumination > "Tell them, Soldekai. Warn them." The Archangel of Death stared > intently at him. "Warn them that the Judged may yet judge, and that > Heaven would not like their verdict." > > -- > Eric A. Burns Won me over! At first, I shied away from this dark thread with Gog, but his chapter won me over to liking it beyond its an IN story (so I am inclined to read anyway). Its an excellent platform to addressing the Grigori plight and very well presented. Jeff =) Part of my insanity manifest at JCT, where In Nomine meets science fiction in the far future http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jctrinityRPG - -- __________________________________________________________ Download the FREE Opera browser at www.opera.com/download/ Free OperaMail at http://www.operamail.com/ Powered by Outblaze ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 00:04:13 +0800 From: "Jeffery Watkins" Subject: Re: IN> Candi, Demon of Blonde > > I already feel soooo sorry for Candi. > > I don't, I suspect that she will remain happily oblivious. As the saying > goes, "Fate favors fools and children." That is precisely why I feel sorry for her. She won't even understand why the joke is on her. Jeff =) Part of my insanity manifest at JCT, where In Nomine meets science fiction in the far future http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jctrinityRPG - -- __________________________________________________________ Download the FREE Opera browser at www.opera.com/download/ Free OperaMail at http://www.operamail.com/ Powered by Outblaze ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 00:23:44 +0800 From: "Jeffery Watkins" Subject: Re: IN> New Discord > Some Days, You Just Can't Get Rid of a Bomb (Celestial) > Sirea, Great Discord! I normally don't use discords effectively, but I definitely want to use this one now. And the quote! LOL, I won't ask how many others were actually alive when the movie first came out, but that does bring back the memories. ^_^ Jeff =) Part of my insanity manifest at JCT, where In Nomine meets science fiction in the far future http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jctrinityRPG - -- __________________________________________________________ Download the FREE Opera browser at www.opera.com/download/ Free OperaMail at http://www.operamail.com/ Powered by Outblaze ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 10:37:30 -0600 From: "Rampaging Crypto-Man" Subject: IN> outcasting = silly. I've never liked the idea of angels being cast out of Heaven as a form of punishment. It seeks reckless and dangerous for an Archangel to do such a thing, since it puts the angel one step closer to falling. If an angel is truly that bad, they should just be destroyed, lest the Archangel inadvertently send Hell a new demon. Yet canon is full of cases of angels being outcast, from single celestials all the way up to an entire choir. >From a military point of view, this is lunacy. Perhaps there should be a difference between an angel who is cast out by a Superior and one who trips. The tripped angel should be treated as the rules dictate, but the outcast angel should still be two steps removed from falling. Other than that, all the other punishments and penalties associated with being tripped would still apply. This way, an Archangel CAN cast an angel out to punish him -- and if the angel trips up and fails a dissonance roll, the Archangel can send a hit squad after him before disaster strikes. Ben ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 00:38:44 +0800 From: "Jeffery Watkins" Subject: Re: IN> INverse Superior: Makatiel, Elohite Archangel of Life > (heres my next Superior for INverse. Critiques, as always, welcome and > desired. Hope this didn't gain "weight" in the post... e_e;) > > Makatiel, Elohite Archangel of Life > > "The world is alive with beauty and wonder, it must never die." > Sirea,< This is a fantastic slot or niche to fill in Words since Death is represented. As usual very creative work. My perspectives are usually skewed as I love large scale, miracle working effects and Makatiel with his attunements does this very well. If the INverse is meant more on the subtle levels, you may wish tone down the effects, but Mythic theme campaigns I think he's fantastic! *ponders how to work him in* Jeff =) Part of my insanity manifest at JCT, where In Nomine meets science fiction in the far future http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jctrinityRPG - -- __________________________________________________________ Download the FREE Opera browser at www.opera.com/download/ Free OperaMail at http://www.operamail.com/ Powered by Outblaze ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 13:10:32 -0400 From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> outcasting = silly. At 10:37 AM 10/16/2002 -0600, Rampaging Crypto-Man wrote: > From a military point of view, this is lunacy. Maybe. Yes, Heaven is fighting a War; no, that doesn't automatically make it a military operation, as much as Michael and Laurence might like you to believe that. What would be the possible gain of simply destroying an angel who really, really screwed up? Outcasting allows a Superior to show extreme displeasure without taking the ultimate step of destroying one of God's creatures. It allows for forgiveness: "You blew this one big time, but I will allow you to redeem yourself. Go forth into the world and do good works, in the knowledge that I would rather have you in Heaven." If nothing else, outright destruction of an angel means a *lot* of *wasted effort*. >Perhaps there should be a difference between an angel who is cast out by a >Superior and one who trips. Fine for your games, but this just generates more mechanics. (What happens, mechanically, to an angel who has been Cast Out, and then fails his first dissonance roll? "He gets hunted down by his ex-Superior" doesn't count.) Also, be cautious about throwing "should" around. - -EDG ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 13:15:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Ryan M Roth Subject: Re: IN> outcasting = silly. On Wed, 16 Oct 2002, Rampaging Crypto-Man wrote: > I've never liked the idea of angels being cast out of Heaven as a form of > punishment. It seeks reckless and dangerous for an Archangel to do such a > thing, since it puts the angel one step closer to falling. If an angel is > truly that bad, they should just be destroyed, lest the Archangel > inadvertently send Hell a new demon. Yet canon is full of cases of angels > being outcast, from single celestials all the way up to an entire choir. > >From a military point of view, this is lunacy. > There would doubtless be many angels who would agree with you. (most of them probably being Malkites). However, it isn't about trying to keep forces away from the enemy. It's about concern for the greater good, and concern for the individual soul. If an angel makes a lot of bad choices and titters on the edge of Falling, his very presence in Heaven can endanger others. But does that mean you give up on him? Do you assume that he cannot learn from his mistakes and do better? Do you assume that a few mistakes have utterly destroyed his chance to do good? In a dark game, perhaps. But in most games, there is a simple statement about Heavenly Outcasts that is always True: Every time an angel is Outcast from Heaven, it is with the hope that, one day, they will understand their mistakes and come back home. It wouldn't be Heaven otherwise. Outcasting is tough love. It's sending the offender out into harsh circumstances (and being an Outcast on Earth is very hard) with the hope that the angel will think about what brought him to that point and seek forgiveness and, more importantly, redress those assumptions/habits/preconceptions which got him in trouble in the first place. Do many Outcasts end up as demons? Yes. But many find their way back. And better a thousand demons be created than one soul who might have been redeemed be arbitarily destroyed before he could see the light. R. Roth ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 12:20:42 -0500 From: Joe Reimers Subject: Re: IN> outcasting = silly. I concur whole-heartedly, ESPECIALLY in the case of Dominic. Not to rip on Revelations: FotM and FT, but I have a Dominican in my group, and I am having a murderous time seeing Dom cast out one of his own when they are specifically charged to PREVENT angels from becoming Outcasts. That's a glaring inconsistancy. At 10:37 AM 10/16/2002 -0600, you wrote: >I've never liked the idea of angels being cast out of Heaven as a form of >punishment. It seeks reckless and dangerous for an Archangel to do such a >thing, since it puts the angel one step closer to falling. If an angel is >truly that bad, they should just be destroyed, lest the Archangel >inadvertently send Hell a new demon. Yet canon is full of cases of angels >being outcast, from single celestials all the way up to an entire choir. > From a military point of view, this is lunacy. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 10:26:03 -0700 From: " Cameron McCurry" Subject: Re: IN> outcasting = silly. On Wed, 16 Oct 2002 10:37:30 -0600 Rampaging Crypto-Man said unto us: >>If an angel is truly that bad, they should just be destroyed, lest the Archangel inadvertently send Hell a new demon. >From what I understand, the purpose of Outcasting is to get the angel to realize that what they are doing is truly wrong. Being cut off from their home and treated as a pariah from their brothers and sisters is supposed to underscore how far they have slid. As for being destroyed outright, that could just as easily work against Heaven. Destroying angels that could be saved would be counterproductive (Malakim are the big exception to this. Once a Malakite is cast out, it's Open Season on them.). >>From a military point of view, this is lunacy. And the military has plenty of examples of people who broke the rules and were sent to prison as opposed to being executed. >>This way, an Archangel CAN cast an angel out to punish him --and if the angel trips up and fails a dissonance roll, the Archangel can send a hit squad after him before disaster strikes. Sounds a little harsh for an Archangel to kill an errant Servitor out of hand like that. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 10:31:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> INverse Superior: Makatiel, Elohite Archangel of Life - --- Cameron McCurry wrote: > Calabite of Saminga's ability to know how much damage > someone can take > before they die would be another example. No, because it doesn't automatically say, "That's a Celestial," or "That's an Ethereal." It only tells you if somebody is unusually tough. That could be a 7-Force Human with the Toughness Advantage. It also won't spot supernaturals who are no tougher than normal Humans. Knowing that someone's natural lifespan is "won't ever die of old age" tells you right away that you're dealing with somebody in a Vessel. =====

Michael Walton, #US2002023848

"If you succeed, you will make some false friends and some true enemies. Succeed anyway." - -- Bishop David M. Copeland

__________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 10:32:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> INverse Superior: Makatiel, Elohite Archangel of Life - --- Charles Glasgow wrote: > Likewise for the Impudite of Technology artifact glasses > -- if he's got 7+ > Essence showing, he's *extremely* unlikely to be human. I'll give you that one, though even then there's room for doubt. =====

Michael Walton, #US2002023848

"If you succeed, you will make some false friends and some true enemies. Succeed anyway." - -- Bishop David M. Copeland

__________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 10:35:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: RE: IN> INverse Superior: Makatiel, Elohite Archangel of Life - --- "Wajenberg, Earl" wrote: > I believe there's a list of angel-tricks on the SJGames > IN pages, which can > give very good hints about who's celestial. Hints, yes. That I have no problem with. Every Gabrielite Choir Attunement does that (there's no such thing as a demon who won't "ping" to a Seraph of Fire -- if you use an infernal Rite to gain Essence that was tortured out of damned souls, you knowingly benefit from cruelty). The proposed Attunement doesn't offer a hint, it's a sure thing. =====

Michael Walton, #US2002023848

"If you succeed, you will make some false friends and some true enemies. Succeed anyway." - -- Bishop David M. Copeland

__________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 13:43:38 -0400 From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> outcasting = silly. At 12:20 PM 10/16/2002 -0500, Joe Reimers wrote: >I concur whole-heartedly, ESPECIALLY in the case of Dominic. Not to rip >on Revelations: FotM and FT, but I have a Dominican in my group, and I am >having a murderous time seeing Dom cast out one of his own when they are >specifically charged to PREVENT angels from becoming Outcasts. That's a >glaring inconsistancy. Not IMO. There's a difference between being Cast Out because you really, really screwed up, and becoming Outcast because you became excessively dissonant, either through violating your Choir's dissonance conditions or your Archangel's dissonance conditions. Violating your Archangel's dissonance conditions means that you probably ought to be reassigned to a new Word, since you don't seem to be able to bear the burden under which your current Archangel has placed you. Doing so multiple times probably means that you need counseling. Violating your Choir's dissonance conditions means that you probably need counseling; there's not a way to change the Choir of an angel short of triggering another Fall, and nobody's even sure that would work. If you repeatedly violate your Choir's dissonance conditions, it probably means that you're having identity issues, and possibly means that you are associating with your demonic counterpart much more than with your angelic nature. Violating your Archangel's orders badly enough to be Cast Out *without violating the Archangel's dissonance conditions or your own Choir dissonance conditions* probably means that you simply need more experience, and an accepted way of doing that is to send you out into the world without the binds of a Word or orders to screw up. Dominicans police the first two; angels who are having trouble with dissonance are much more dangerous than angels who simply blew up the wrong Tether. - -EDG ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 10:40:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> INverse Superior: Makatiel, Elohite Archangel of Life - --- EDG wrote: > I don't agree with Michael's statement that these Ofanim > could walk into a > room and detect all of the celestials therein, though; > even the most > powerful unWorded Ofanite could only do this four times > before needing to recharge. Good point. > Ofanim: An Ofanite of Life has limited control over the > disposition of > souls: although he cannot redirect a soul to a particular > plane, he can > stop it from being discorporated entirely. Nice! It's balanced and keeps the motion motif of Ofanim intact. =====

Michael Walton, #US2002023848

"If you succeed, you will make some false friends and some true enemies. Succeed anyway." - -- Bishop David M. Copeland

__________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 10:41:03 -0700 From: " Cameron McCurry" Subject: Re: IN> outcasting = silly. On Wed, 16 Oct 2002 12:20:42 -0500 Joe Reimers said unto us: >>but I have a Dominican in my group, and I am having a murderous time seeing Dom cast out one of his own when they are specifically charged to PREVENT angels from becoming Outcasts. Actually, they are charged with preventing angels from becoming demons. Outcasting is a last resort even among the Judges and it is understood that all other methods have been tried. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 10:47:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> outcasting = silly. - --- Rampaging Crypto-Man wrote: > I've never liked the idea of angels being cast out of > Heaven as a form of > punishment. It seeks reckless and dangerous for an > Archangel to do such a > thing, since it puts the angel one step closer to > falling. The reasoning is twofold: 1) By casting the angel out of Heaven before he Falls, Heaven shows him what he'll be missing if he does Fall. 2) Outcasting removes a potentially corruptive influence from Heaven. If the Outcast does Fall, his opportunities to take others with him are limited. =====

Michael Walton, #US2002023848

"If you succeed, you will make some false friends and some true enemies. Succeed anyway." - -- Bishop David M. Copeland

__________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 01:46:36 +0800 From: "Jeffery Watkins" Subject: Re: IN> Fallen Bands Revised > Would you like the revised document? I revised all the Bands and cleaned up > the writing, and added a couple of things for each, including a little > vignette for each Band.< Please! I would LOVE the revised document including vignette for each Band. ^_^ > > I particularly liked the example you gave for the Vilodim. Question, about them. Does it have to be up close and personal, or if one was say in a mech (yes, In Anime) firing away at 'defenseless' civilians, would that satisfy them since they couldn't use their strenght resonance? > > No, they must do it up close and personal, the most impersonal they could > get is using a sniper rifle. If they used the mech to pick a human up and > crush them in the hand however... > Sirea,< Thank you. I do appreciate that. Oh, along the lines of the mech picking up a human to crush them, (reaching for this), could their resonance work on the mech for said situation? Hmmm...maybe this calls for a specialized mech from Vapula or in my game Zethar who inherited the word of Technology after Vapula redeemed (ala Moe's universe). Again many thanks for making the IN experience richer! Jeff =) Part of my insanity manifest at JCT, where In Nomine meets science fiction in the far future http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jctrinityRPG - -- __________________________________________________________ Download the FREE Opera browser at www.opera.com/download/ Free OperaMail at http://www.operamail.com/ Powered by Outblaze ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 10:51:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> outcasting = silly. - --- Cameron McCurry wrote: > Actually, they are charged with preventing angels from > becoming demons. > Outcasting is a last resort even among the Judges and it > is understood that > all other methods have been tried. And let's not forget -- angels, especially archangels, ARE NOT HUMAN. Trying to bind their actions and motives within human ethics and understanding is an exercise in futility. =====

Michael Walton, #US2002023848

"If you succeed, you will make some false friends and some true enemies. Succeed anyway." - -- Bishop David M. Copeland

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