in_nomine-digest Sunday, November 10 2002 Volume 01 : Number 2854 In this digest: Re: IN> I boggle... Re: IN> I boggle... Re: IN> Superior Artifact: Beelzebub's Blade IN> IN Wuxia: A New Song Combo IN> The Ring IN> Questions about Kyriotates Re: IN> Questions about Kyriotates Re: IN> Questions about Kyriotates Re: IN> Questions about Kyriotates Re: IN> Questions about Kyriotates IN> An interesting thought IN> First session. Yay! Re: IN> Questions about Kyriotates Re: IN> An interesting thought Re: IN> An interesting thought Re: IN> An interesting thought Re: IN> Questions about Kyriotates IN> I boggle... Re: IN> An interesting thought Re: IN> An interesting thought ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 15:26:00 -0500 From: Christopher Pipinou Subject: Re: IN> I boggle... On Fri, 8 Nov 2002 00:27:36 -0500 "William J. Keith" writes: > Until that moment, I had thought he was holding a... you know. Plastic > substitute phallus. Whew -- I thought I was the only one who thought that's what it greatly resembled. (Having thought that, I was amazed at the chutzpah of including it in the art, even allowing for the 'mature themes' label). - - Chris Pipinou ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 15:25:08 -0500 From: Christopher Pipinou Subject: Re: IN> I boggle... On Fri, 8 Nov 2002 18:19:39 -0500 Elizabeth McCoy writes: > At 4:19 PM -0700 11/7/02, David Edelstein wrote: > >I once stumbled across another of the photos Smith used as models > [...] > > And the Lilim for the Band writeup was from a catalog... Yes, she was > wearing roughly what the Lilim is wearing. O:> I think I need to find that catalog for my gf... - - Chris Pipinou ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 06:02:38 +0800 From: "Jeffery Watkins" Subject: Re: IN> Superior Artifact: Beelzebub's Blade Veery nice, even beyond plot seed. Well presented a nice addition to the story's arsenal. Jeff =) - -- _______________________________________________ Get your free email from http://mymail.operamail.com Powered by Outblaze ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 17:26:19 -0500 From: Rolland Therrien Subject: IN> IN Wuxia: A New Song Combo My first attempt at presenting Song Combos to this List were met with apparant disinterest, but I guess that's because it went under the radar and lacked enough "Funky Stuff" to attract attention. So here's a new Song Combo with a bit more flavor for your approval Wuxia Warrior Two-Song Combo Corporeal Song of Might and Corporeal Song of Motion When song, the performer becomes a hard-hitting, high-flying fighting machine the likes of which are usually only seen in Hong Kong wuxia movies. It's a matter of debate, however, if the combo was inspired by the movies, or if those types of movies were inspired by ancient use of a similar combo. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 17:05:43 -0700 From: sirea@softhome.net Subject: IN> The Ring Okay, I just saw The Ring today, and despite what braindead critics say, it was very cool and interesting. Very thoughtful, and VERY Dark. On the In Nomine side, it really inspired me to think of an alternate version for Nybbas. A very creative Nybbas that feeds mortals with so much intellectual stimulus that it makes them go mad. A very, VERY Dark Nybbas. This movie made me see the Media in a really evil and horrifying light. Anyways, recommended for all, and maybe I'll do Dark Nybbas sometime :) I'm a slave to INverse for now e_e; Dark Nybbas, Impudite Demon Prince of Media "The world is... an illusion. Static. Sensory extremes that you can never comprehend. The world is ALL IN YOUR MIND" --- Sirea, Free Cherub IST Destiny, Angel who Wanders, petitioner for the Word of Eternity (currently being ridden by Grapejuice, Renegade Shedite of the Game, and petitioner for the Word of Pranking Tightwads) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 20:42:15 -0500 From: Rolland Therrien Subject: IN> Questions about Kyriotates Hi, the first question is addressed to Beth, concerning the Gurps: In Nomine version of the Kyriotates. I'm trying to wrap my head around the Gurps IN version of the Kyriotate Resonance. I understand how the "Body-Hopping" advantage works: A Contest of Wills, and you can take over any Host with an IQ of 3 or higher, as long as the Host's attribute total (ST+DX+IQ+HT) isn't higher then yours. Sounds simple enough. The Kyriotate Mindshare Advantage, as well, I can understand: All hosts share information and thoughts in real-time, and can split their attention in multiple realms, but they can only take action in one realm at a time. Took a while to figure it out, but I've got it now. It's when the two are put together that causes me confusion: A Domination can possess multiple hosts at once, and can split itself up to 9 ways at once, but the total power of all it's hosts is limited: It can possess 9 mice, 4-5 cats or one average human and a few small animals. There is, unfortunetly, no suggestions as to how a Kyrio could increase the number of Hosts he can control. Why not simply rule that a Gurps Kyrio can divide itself in as many manifestations as it has total Power Investiture Levels, but that there's a minimum level of PI Levels needed to control a type of Host? Let's say, 5 for an average Human? That way, higher powered Kyrios, the ones with 15 levels of PI, could possess more then one Human at a time. My second question is a more general consideration of the Kyriotate Choir in itself, and is addressed to the List at Large: Considering how bothersome the Choir can be sometimes (The Kyrio Kryptonite thread being one such exemple), some might wonder if it's worth the bother at all sometimes. Especially since it doesn't really seem to properly mirror it's demonic band counterpart: Shedim are Corrupters, but Kyrios are Dominations? How's this for an alternate, less confusing Kyriotate: They can possess one Host at a time, much like Shedim, and rather then displace that host's mind, they share it much like the Shedim do. But whereas the Shedim are Corruptors, Kyriotate are Consciences: they attempt to make Hosts do Good deeds, then convince them they did so themselves, so that they learn to become a good individual by habit. Of course, such an interpretation of the choir would pretty much ruin Jordi. ...I guess after all this speculation, I'm just more confused then when I started. Any thoughts? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 18:02:45 -0800 From: Kish Subject: Re: IN> Questions about Kyriotates Rolland Therrien wrote: > My second question is a more general consideration of the Kyriotate Choir in > itself, and is addressed to the List at Large: Considering how bothersome > the Choir can be sometimes (The Kyrio Kryptonite thread being one such > exemple), some might wonder if it's worth the bother at all sometimes. > Especially since it doesn't really seem to properly mirror it's demonic band > counterpart: Shedim are Corrupters, but Kyrios are Dominations? No Choir's Resonance is really the opposite of the opposing Band's. The relationship is more complicated then that. As I see it...Seraphim are about Truth, about saying the Truth and, even more, about /knowing/ the Truth. Balseraphs are about deception, but more, they are about /self/-deception. (The sole true Balseraph major Prince is best-known not for his artful deceptions of others, but for convincing himself he is greater than Michael and that his cause is justified.) Cherubim are about love; Djinn are designed on the principle that the opposite of love is indifference, not hate. There resonance is the Cherub resonance minus the love that gives the Cherub resonance its power. Elohim are about controlling their own emotions and analyzing others; Habbalah are about twisting the emotions of everyone else and being completely at the mercy of their own. Mercurians are about being good friends; Impudites are about being /bad/ friends. And, the one under discussion...Kyriotates are about seeing every point of view. Shedim are about warping others to their point of view. > > How's this for an alternate, less confusing Kyriotate: They can possess one > Host at a time, much like Shedim, and rather then displace that host's mind, > they share it much like the Shedim do. But whereas the Shedim are > Corruptors, Kyriotate are Consciences: they attempt to make Hosts do Good > deeds, then convince them they did so themselves, so that they learn to > become a good individual by habit. The problem I have with that is that it renders the resonances thematically meaningless. With the official resonances, it's easy to spin the Kyriotate resonance as symbolically positive and the Shedite resonance as symbolically negative for Forwards IN, and it's equally easy to do just the opposite for Backwards IN. This changed Kyriotate resonance is suitable only for a No-Contrast game, or one where the resonances are nothing more than funky powers for celestials whose morality comes out in other ways. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 03:03:26 +0100 (CET) From: Unni Solaas Subject: Re: IN> Questions about Kyriotates On Sat, 9 Nov 2002, Rolland Therrien wrote: > ...I guess after all this speculation, I'm just more confused then when I > started. Any thoughts? I have one suggestion: Read the Fiat Justitia logs. Study Hitherby and Sephar - the kyrio mayhem squad. After reading those logs (they are massive so it takes a lot of time), I actually understood kyrios and how to play them. Prior to that I just thought the Dominations were weird and didn't really see the point having them around at all. - -- language, n; an intangible artificial construct for obscuring one's meanings and intentions to others. -ppint. Unni Solaas ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 21:35:19 -0500 From: "William J. Keith" Subject: Re: IN> Questions about Kyriotates >It's when the two are put together that causes me confusion: A Domination >can possess multiple hosts at once, and can split itself up to 9 ways at >once, but the total power of all it's hosts is limited: It can possess 9 >mice, 4-5 cats or one average human and a few small animals. There is, >unfortunetly, no suggestions as to how a Kyrio could increase the number of >Hosts he can control. I spoke with Beth about this earlier, when running through comments on the Liber Canticorum GURPS translation. This was in private email, though it was pursuant to something that got put in the INC, so I hope she won't mind me reposting the relevant bit of our conversation: - ----- Me: This also might indicate a couple of general things. For example, in the description of the Kyriotate resonance it says a Domination can have up to 9 hosts at once, but if they lost a level of Power Investiture maybe they can only have 8? Beth: Bingo. - ----- So it seems that a GURPS Kyrio can have as many hosts as it has levels of Power Investiture, and could increase this by increasing their base Forces - -- this is a bit of an unfortunate oversight, but at least it doesn't contradict anything in G:IN. (Besides, how often is a GURPS Kyrio going to have nine hosts? It would have to have a Will of 27 to do that to begin with, unless it was a Kyriotate of Jordi, which can control 9 swarms with a Will of 18.) >Why not simply rule that a Gurps Kyrio can divide itself in as many >manifestations as it has total Power Investiture Levels, but that there's a >minimum level of PI Levels needed to control a type of Host? Let's say, 5 >for an average Human? That way, higher powered Kyrios, the ones with 15 >levels of PI, could possess more then one Human at a time. Then you would have to introduce a new stat for each type of host: how many levels of Power Investiture had to be used to control it. Using attributes meshed more nicely with GURPS. (The general notion of everything, including one's target, having Forces is one of the big things to consider in translating the IN supplements to GURPS.) A GURPS Kyriotate can control two ST 10 hosts (assuming their IQ is higher) once it has raised its Will to 20, which would probably be something many of them would want to do. And, of course, there's always a lower-ST or lower-IQ human to find if you really want to control two humans, even if your Will is lower than that. As for an alternate version of Kyriotates, I posted one to the list on 20 Feb 2001, entitled "Kyriotates(gaping hole ripped in canon within)", wherein they don't /Dominate/ hosts, they /create/ them, using their Forces to create hosts based on patterns existing in the Symphony, including instincts and perceptions -- really *becoming* their hosts, instead of simply riding their bodies. I don't actually use these variant Kyriotates in my campaign (I hew to canon), but you might find them useful. If any digests you may know about are not working, I would be glad to send it to you (or repost to the list if more than one person is interested). William ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 10:44:38 +0800 From: "Jeffery Watkins" Subject: Re: IN> Questions about Kyriotates > Why not simply rule that a Gurps Kyrio can divide itself in as many > manifestations as it has total Power Investiture Levels, < That is a perfect idea. Power Investiture is GURPS substitution-modification to Forces right? So it might be all right to think that the Kyrio could only divide itself in as many manifestations as it had Forces? I ask, because this would be a good solution to the how many question for the online game I run (diceless, more storytelling system) > > My second question is a more general consideration of the Kyriotate Choir in > itself, and is addressed to the List at Large: Considering how bothersome > the Choir can be sometimes (The Kyrio Kryptonite thread being one such > exemple), some might wonder if it's worth the bother at all sometimes. > Especially since it doesn't really seem to properly mirror it's demonic band > counterpart: Shedim are Corrupters, but Kyrios are Dominations? > While I love the Kyrio concept the fact they are dominators has always been a bit unsettling, except for Jean's which take over objects, Novalis plants and Jordi's animals. It suggest Heaven is forcing someone to do something instead of it being a free will issue. > How's this for an alternate, less confusing Kyriotate: They can possess one > Host at a time, much like Shedim, and rather then displace that host's mind, > they share it much like the Shedim do. But whereas the Shedim are > Corruptors, Kyriotate are Consciences: they attempt to make Hosts do Good > deeds, then convince them they did so themselves, so that they learn to > become a good individual by habit. > I LOVE this! You've just changed the Kyrio's of my game. I like the Consciences much more so than the Dominators. Time to work on the write ups... > Of course, such an interpretation of the choir would pretty much ruin Jordi. > Questions, and please forgive my 'thickness' for not getting this, but how would this interpretation ruin Jordi? Thank you for posting this! *gives essence* Jeff =) Part of my insanity manifest at JCT, where In Nomine meets science fiction in the far future http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jctrinityRPG - -- _______________________________________________ Get your free email from http://mymail.operamail.com Powered by Outblaze ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 23:04:01 -0500 From: EDG Subject: IN> An interesting thought What happens if a Superior grafts a Force onto a human with only 5 Forces' worth of potential - before the human has naturally received his or her fifth Force? Postulate: A five-Force human with no Symphonic awareness, no conscious Essence expenditure, and the ability to gain attunements. - -EDG Nikola Tesla Corporeal Forces: 1 Strength: 2 Agility: 2 Ethereal Forces: 3 Intelligence: 6 Precision: 6 Celestial Forces: 1 Will: 2 Perception: 2 Skills: Chemistry/4, Electronics/6, Engineering/6, Knowledge (Area (New York Metropolitan/1, Lika/3), Scientific Community and Industry/3) Language (English/2, Serbo-Croat/3) Attunements: Seraph of Lightning Most of this can be found on the Web with a simple search. Nikola Tesla was born in Lika in 1856, moved to the United States in 1884, and spent the rest of his life being used, abused, and downplayed until his death in 1943. He did, however, have one unique talent: aside from being an electric and electronic wizard, he could visualize complete circuits in his head, without ever needing to take them to paper. This alone brought him acclaim among the scientific community, but his (occasionally unintentional) altruism saw to it that he never got the recognition or employment that he deserved. This is regarded as an unfortunate side effect by the Lightning community. Nikola Tesla was actually something of an experiment of Jean's: he was interested in seeing what would happen if a Force were grafted onto a human who had not yet reached his full potential. The effect was to stunt poor Tesla's growth, as it were; Nikola never grew a natural fifth Force, and in addition suffered from visions stemming from his Archangelic Force. Feeling it unnecessarily cruel to remove the Force and risk a four-Force adult human, Jean left the Force, and as something of a consolation left the lad with an eidetic memory by way of one of his attunements; if he was going to have visions, he ought at least to remember them. The trouble was that Nikola feared many of his visions, and they plagued him throughout his life, often growing into manias or phobias: Tesla feared such things as circles, and was fascinated by women's hair. On the other hand, his Archangelic Force allowed him some significant benefits: Tesla could, apparently at will once he figured them out, scientifically duplicate the effects of certain Songs (most of them variants of the Song of Lightning). At one point he sent current to lamps 25 miles away without the benefit of wires, and at another he generated man-made lightning, each flash about 135 feet long. It is worth noting that Nikola Tesla arrived safely and soundly in Heaven, and - to the surprise of many - immediately ascended Jacob's Ladder to the Higher Heavens. Still, many angels of Lightning and Destiny have fantasized over the years about what Tesla could have been if given the proper training - or if he had been left alone entirely... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 20:55:06 -0800 (PST) From: Jennifer Shih Subject: IN> First session. Yay! After one abortive attempt at meeting, our new gaming group has finally met for its first IN session. Yay! We started up by picking up the newest member (a shiny new Malakite) from the local Tether, and then proceeded to get the World's Worst Briefing from the Fonz. So far, we have: Split the party (twice). Comforted a human about her divorce by shaking her and shouting, "Pull yourself together, woman!" Rolled one infernal intervention. Fled a hausfrau with rolling pin. Ordered Chinese in character, leading to great confusion as it was RL dinner time. ("I ordered Chinese." "You did? When? I thought we agreed to order out for dinner together.") Ordered Chinese out of character. Interrupted a drug party with NC:Wings and a sword, on the theory that "They're all on mind-altering drugs anyway; they'll just figure it was a bad trip." Much fun was had. Hypothesis: NC:Wings are ticklish on Malakim. Must formulate experiment to test hypothesis... Bounce! I just wanted to share that because we've been trying to organize this run for over a month now. Jennifer __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos http://launch.yahoo.com/u2 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 13:11:28 +0800 From: "Jeffery Watkins" Subject: Re: IN> Questions about Kyriotates > As for an alternate version of Kyriotates, I posted one to the list on 20 > Feb 2001, entitled "Kyriotates(gaping hole ripped in canon within)", > wherein they don't /Dominate/ hosts, they /create/ them, using their Forces > to create hosts based on patterns existing in the Symphony, including > instincts and perceptions -- really *becoming* their hosts, instead of > simply riding their bodies.< Wow! Thanks for pointing this out. AAA! *conflict discord* I love the idea of the Consciences, that makes them very Heavenly, but this gives them a good player use and interesting possible adventures. I went to the digest and its still there (though I'm cutting and pasting it to file). Right now, I'm thinking of making the temporary vessels the substitution for the possession perk when they are not being conscious of their host. Still need to work on it, but this really works as a Heavenly choir for I agree with you in the article, possession seems more demonic to me. Well, off to the drawing board to work this dilemma out. Thanks again. *gives essence once recharged* Jeff =) Part of my insanity manifest at JCT, where In Nomine meets science fiction in the far future http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jctrinityRPG - -- _______________________________________________ Get your free email from http://mymail.operamail.com Powered by Outblaze ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 21:32:37 -0800 From: Kish Subject: Re: IN> An interesting thought Not to criticize your writeup--I enjoyed it, and think it's interesting--but one thing makes me wonder about how Destiny works... > It is worth noting that Nikola Tesla arrived safely and soundly in Heaven, > and - to the surprise of many - immediately ascended Jacob's Ladder to the > Higher Heavens. Still, many angels of Lightning and Destiny have > fantasized over the years about what Tesla could have been if given the > proper training - or if he had been left alone entirely... How can that be? Since he arrived in Heaven, he must have acheieved his destiny. For that to have happened, he must have been the best he was capable of...right? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 02:09:18 -0500 From: "William J. Keith" Subject: Re: IN> An interesting thought >Since he arrived in Heaven, he must have acheieved his destiny. For >that to have happened, he must have been the best he was capable >of...right? I seriously doubt that everyone who goes to Heaven achieves their Destiny, or in fact that everyone who goes to Hell achieved their Fate. Either of those will seal the deal, certainly (barring achieving the other), but it's canon that angels and demons argue over whether it's strictly necessary to do more than lead a good or bad life. As regards EDG's original idea: it's also canon (from Valefor's writeup, or all things) that Jean or his angels worked with Nikola Tesla on an "electrotherapy cure for cancer," which Valefor stole. It seems he stole it so thoroughly that the effect was utterly irreproducible, since it has never come up again since, which indicates to me that some supernatural intervention rather like Oblivion had to occur. Since Jean surely keeps excellent lab notes and demands the same of his Servitors working in research, this seems implausible to me. The best alternative I can think of is that, immediately after (or during the process of) stealing the invention, human society changed (or was changed) in such a way that Jean felt it was no longer advisable to release the cure. This is the only way you could really pull off such a theft in a permanent fashion, since frequently when people use "Let's steal " as a plot device the plot frequently tends to forget the likelihood that the victim will simply make the device again. Changing society in just such a way, with just the right timing, is such a difficult stunt (though *just* within the bounds of possibility) that it feels to me like Valefor would thrill at the chance to show off, if he thought he could manage it. William ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 23:18:48 -0800 From: Kish Subject: Re: IN> An interesting thought "William J. Keith" wrote: > > >Since he arrived in Heaven, he must have acheieved his destiny. For > >that to have happened, he must have been the best he was capable > >of...right? > > I seriously doubt that everyone who goes to Heaven achieves their Destiny, > or in fact that everyone who goes to Hell achieved their Fate. Either of > those will seal the deal, certainly (barring achieving the other), but it's > canon that angels and demons argue over whether it's strictly necessary to > do more than lead a good or bad life. What? Where? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 12:14:27 -0000 From: "Genevieve Cogman" Subject: Re: IN> Questions about Kyriotates I will note that both Hitherby and Sephar had excellent players, who were willing to keep their instincts to use every single power at maximum under control, and thus made the GM's life (mine) more endurable. I will also note that after a few days of heavy Kyrio power use, the local demons (some of whom had extensive connections) wised up and started acquiring Force Catchers (or Kyrio Catchers) -- or, in one case, a Kyrio Hoover. Genevieve - -----Original Message----- From: Unni Solaas >I have one suggestion: Read the Fiat Justitia logs. Study Hitherby and >Sephar - the kyrio mayhem squad. After reading those logs (they are >massive so it takes a lot of time), I actually understood kyrios and how >to play them. Prior to that I just thought the Dominations were weird and >didn't really see the point having them around at all. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 07:51:12 -0500 From: BC Petery Subject: IN> I boggle... >>>> I will be dipped in sh*t. >>> >>> Only if Belial catches up to you. >> >> Doesn't really seem like Belial's thing to do. Kobal maybe, possibly >> Beleth, Andre or even Nybbas. But Belial it would have to somehow involve >> fire... > > Methane is flammable, remember? The Blue Flame Club rides again! Use Mirror -> straf gnithgil snaem tI ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 12:26:58 -0500 From: "William J. Keith" Subject: Re: IN> An interesting thought >> I seriously doubt that everyone who goes to Heaven achieves their Destiny, >> or in fact that everyone who goes to Hell achieved their Fate. Either of >> those will seal the deal, certainly (barring achieving the other), but it's >> canon that angels and demons argue over whether it's strictly necessary to >> do more than lead a good or bad life. > >What? Where? GURPS: In Nomine, page 147, text box "Fate and Destiny": "It's not clear whether someone can get into Heaven or Hell by other ways - many angels debate over whether any given blessed soul achieved Destiny, or merely 'lived a good life.'" Besides, in my opinion, if everybody who goes to Heaven achieves their Destiny and everybody who goes to Hell achieves their Fate, and any significant fraction of humanity goes to one or the other, then either there are a lot of small Destinies and Fates out there, or a lot of the events that influence the history of the world are very well hidden. William ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 21:35:33 +0000 From: "Jarrod Carmichael" Subject: Re: IN> An interesting thought Besides, in my opinion, if everybody who goes to Heaven achieves their >Destiny and everybody who goes to Hell achieves their Fate, and any >significant fraction of humanity goes to one or the other, then either >there are a lot of small Destinies and Fates out there, or a lot of the >events that influence the history of the world are very well hidden. Dont forget that reincarnation also happens in In Nomine Mallakai JC _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2854 ********************************