in_nomine-digest Sunday, November 24 2002 Volume 01 : Number 2871 In this digest: Re: IN> Planting the Hook Re: IN> Planting the Hook IN> Home for old Roles: Lilim of Nybbas IN> GURPS: IN Sorcery Question IN> Trade Rite Question Re: IN> Trade Rite Question Re: IN> Planting the Hook IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #2870 Re: IN> Trade Rite Question Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #2870 Re: IN> Planting the Hook IN> Thoughts on the INverse Lucifer... Re: IN> Planting the Hook ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 18:40:49 -0500 From: "Josh Moger" Subject: Re: IN> Planting the Hook >The scariest thing about hooks is that a lilim can shine your shoes 6 times. >And then get you to work for her for a year. Ive always thought combining >geas was a little daft. > Maybe an increasing bonus to a perception roll, without giving an auto-success, the more times this kind stranger suddenly appears to aid you in your troubles? Josh ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 00:16:38 +0000 From: "Jarrod Carmichael" Subject: Re: IN> Planting the Hook >Maybe an increasing bonus to a perception roll, without giving an >auto-success, the more times this kind stranger suddenly appears to aid you >in your troubles? > >Josh I didn't actually know they stacked until a player pointed out during a final trumpet game last week. They are almost at the end and lilith has several geas on all of them. I cant wait for the coda in the campaign, where lilith will call on them Mallakai _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 11:29:11 +1100 From: "james walker" Subject: IN> Home for old Roles: Lilim of Nybbas Nybbas hasn't been around long enough to worry about recycling Roles; after a Role 'dies' the demon may be able to use Corporeal Entropy to youthen the Vessel and create some "never before seen footage", but otherwise The Media simply doesn't care - you're Old News. Fortunately for Lilim of The Media, Hatiphas looks further ahead. For a Geas/3, she will ensure that an appropriate version of this ritual starts being taught to Sorcerers: =========================================================== Summon Dead Movie Star [Summon/special] Written to superficially resemble the Summon Ghost ritual, the ritual claims to create a body for a famous ghost by manipulating the essence mundanes have spent attempting to be like their idols. In reality, this is a modified "Summon Temptress" ritual, which Summons the Lilim who had the Role of the star. The level of the ritual is [8 - the level of the Role]. The Lilim Summoned by the ritual will also know which Vessel she is supposed to be inhabiting, and what age it should be. Detecting the Need to sleep with the star the Sorcerer drooled over as a teenager is rarely difficult. Of course, most stars were actually mortals, so there is now a niche for Lilim who wish to impersonate dead mortals - both Free Lilim and those serving Lust have paid a Geases to Hatiphas for her aid in building these Roles; while Lilith will occasionally build a Lilim using the Ethereal Forces of a mortal star, granting them the memories of a mortal worth impersonating. Of course, this ritual is allowing Sorcerers to Summon named demons: Asmodeus has yet to take steps, or to reveal what he plans to do about the ritual. Time: 1d+2 hours Essence: The demons total Forces minus the check digit. ========================================================== Cheers, James. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 19:47:55 -0500 From: "William J. Keith" Subject: IN> GURPS: IN Sorcery Question I checked the Errata page, but nothing seems to address this, so: the Essence cost for sorcerous rituals looks awfully expensive, now that I take a closer look at it. G:IN has "Cost to Cast:20" for Summon Demon, half that if the demon is on Earth. This is wildly out of line with "Summon Random Demon" in the CPG, which has a cost of "Essence equal to the demon's Forces." Is this intended? Twenty is the original cost in Fatigue, but twenty Essence is awfully hard to come by at a time; while in its original form a Sorceror with a decent reliquary could be fairly well assured of having sufficient(7-12) Essence, the only way a GURPS sorceror is going to manage pulling a demon out of Hell is via group performance. "Banish" is similarly expensive, costing 14 Essence (for a demon of ST and IQ 14) as opposed to 1-6 (the check digit) in original IN. Now, I know there are some stat differences between IN and G:IN, but these seem hefty, and there doesn't seem to be any great difference in the scale of Essence rarity between the two forms. Keeping these would make the behavioral choices of characters somewhat different, it seems. (I also understand that Sorcery could only be spared 2 pages in G:IN, so I can see why there wasn't a detailed breakdown of common rituals. This just seemed significant -- in fact, significant enough that it's the first real change to canon I'm making IMC, other than subtracting elements like an uncomfortable Attunement or Relic.) William ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 20:51:52 -0500 From: "C. Mark Pearson" Subject: IN> Trade Rite Question I have a question about one of Trade's Rites listed in the main book. As printed, it says; 'Make 100% profit on an honorable transaction.'. I'm wondering if that's how it is meant to work, because the only way to make 100% profit on something is to get it for free. If one pays even a penny for something, one can't make a profit of 100% (Profit being the price one sells an item for minus ones costs). The other side of the coin being that anything someone gives you can be sold for as small an amount as a penny and you've turned 100% profit. This just seems to not quite jibe with the word of Trade. Or do most people interpret it as 'Make 50% or more profit'? IE: If you pay five dollars then you sell it for ten you've made 50% profit and you get your point of Essence. C. Mark Pearson ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 21:19:27 -0500 From: "William J. Keith" Subject: Re: IN> Trade Rite Question >Or do most people interpret it as 'Make 50% or more profit'? IE: If you pay >five dollars then you sell it for ten you've made 50% profit and you get >your point of Essence. > >C. Mark Pearson This is the correct interpretation; the expression is meant as, "make profit equal to 100% or more of costs." If I invest in a stock and I sell it after it goes up 5%, I've made a 5% profit by that interpretation. (I have turned, say, $100 into $105.) William ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 21:23:25 -0500 From: "William J. Keith" Subject: Re: IN> Planting the Hook >The scariest thing about hooks is that a lilim can shine your shoes 6 times. >And then get you to work for her for a year. Ive always thought combining >geas was a little daft. > >Mallakai >JC GURPS: In Nomine has a much better conversion rate, in my opinion. There, if you have 4 Geas/n, you can combine them for 1 Geas/(n+1), which makes Geasa stack logarithmically rather than linearly. William ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 09:35:34 EST From: Serai1@aol.com Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #2870 << There have been several instances where it has been implied that just fulfilling a Need plants a Hook, with no contact necessary other than the look in the eyes between Lilim and target. This seems extremely unbalancing and allows munchkins like KK, Lilim of Dark Humor, and Nadine, Lilim of Fate, to exist. >> Yes, this is extremely munchkin and also in poor taste. If some one a PC or or NPC (and is twinky enough to suggest that screwing you over is in character), be completely ruthless with dealing with their character. You have several options: 1. Get a pair of cheap sunglasses 2. Put up an ethereal song of shields. Then pulp. 3. Get a non-malakite friend to kill it, not having oaths your friend doesn't have a need. He's just doing it for fun. 4. Subdue the lilim (poison, bludgeon into unconsciousness) and take it to a tether of War. ::::From my experience, Eli and Lawerence make malakim at about the same rate. The difference is attrition. He who lives by the sword dies by the clothyard shaft etc.:::: ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 09:49:00 -0500 From: Michael Nutt Subject: Re: IN> Trade Rite Question > >Or do most people interpret it as 'Make 50% or more profit'? IE: If you pay > >five dollars then you sell it for ten you've made 50% profit and you get > >your point of Essence. > This is the correct interpretation; the expression is meant as, "make > profit equal to 100% or more of costs." If I invest in a stock and I sell > it after it goes up 5%, I've made a 5% profit by that interpretation. (I > have turned, say, $100 into $105.) This is actually what's known as "net profit margin". I'd also include "return on investment" in the Rite, which would encourage Servitors of Trade to be looking for investment opportunities that will be skyrocketing once they're sufficiently capitalized. www.investorwords.com can give you quick definitions of lots of financial terms, which can be handy if Trade is involved in your game. - -- Michael ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 10:50:59 -0500 From: "S.D." Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #2870 ><< There have been several instances where it > has been implied that just fulfilling a Need plants a Hook, with no contact > necessary other than the look in the eyes between Lilim and target. This > seems extremely unbalancing and allows munchkins like KK, Lilim of Dark > Humor, and Nadine, Lilim of Fate, to exist. >> > >Yes, this is extremely munchkin and also in poor taste. Not really...I mean, the Lilim still has to *fulfil* the Need. And depending on how she does it... ...well, take the infernal game I play in. Last night, my Lilim (Diamante) ran into a Malakite of Judgement. He pinged, and IDed Di as "the most honorable demon I've met in...at *least* a year", so the Need: give Di a shot at Redeeming appeared. (lv/4). Naturally, Di didn't *want* to Redeem, but once he caught me alone he *did* hook him for letting him try to talk Di into it, and giving him contact numbers if he changed his mind. But Di didn't get the full hook/4, because of how indirect it was - instead, the GM halved it. That's pretty much what we've *been* doing, in this game. If the Need is very very specific and you fulfil it in a general way, the hook either doesn't 'take' or appears at a lower level. And let's not forget that not only does a Lilim need eye contact on the original resonance roll, she needs to have the target able to hear and understand her to invoke the Geas, which usually involves being within range of retaliation... KK's only munchkin in that she has a *whole* lotta Geases on *Malakim*. The trick is calling them in before they kill her again - because, remember, her Vessels have one Hit each. If a Malakite pings her as EVIL, there's nothing that says he has to wait for her to talk or resonate back before he serves his Oath...and if he successfully resists the Geas, KK's in trouble anyway. Plus she has to *find* the Malakim again (does she have Cel Affinity? I haven't looked at the writeup in a while.) ~S.D. Ryukage ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 19:36:13 +0000 From: Nigel Cole Subject: Re: IN> Planting the Hook On Saturday 23 November 2002 23:12, Jarrod Carmichael wrote: > The scariest thing about hooks is that a lilim can shine your shoes 6 > times. And then get you to work for her for a year. Ive always > thought combining geas was a little daft. On the other hand, there's something nicely Infernal about it: you let someone do you a few minor favours, and suddenly they come back demanding a major favour from you. If it's a problem, just limit how many favours can be combined to 2 or 3. Or insist that any combination of hooks must include at least one of at least half the level of the requested Geas. So, if the Lilim wants that Geas/6, she's going to need to get some level 2 or 3 hooks. - -- Nigel Cole zebekia@zebekia.co.uk Dreamlyrics: Zebekia ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 16:26:49 -0500 From: "Josh Moger" Subject: IN> Thoughts on the INverse Lucifer... This came about due to a nagging idea that got hooked into my head months ago, when Sirea first brought up her history of the INverse. ~~~In the defining moment, Lucifer, paralyzed with fear, resonates FULLY with the ultimate power of his Word and Seraphic nature upon himself, and discovered the TRUTH. He saw not only what was and would happen, but saw himself in many alternate universes, all at once, and fell to his knees crying to God to forgive him and his blindness. Lucifer is filled with anger, and rides against Michael in war.~~~ Now, looking at the above, you see two Seraphic Archangels. Both rebelled, for a short time for one, against God. Both did things that changed Heaven and the Symphony irrevocably. And, at least in the bit of INverted heresy I'm about to propose- both are fundamentally changed because of it. Michael- well, obviously- Fell to become the first of the Balseraphs. His essence is set against the Symphony and God. He wants to become anti-God, the very antithesis so that he can triumph over his creator. He is the ultimate Liar, with his first lie to himself probably being: "I can succeed in this task." He is the King. And Heaven shall quake before him. Lucifer- Wouldn't, couldn't Fall. He captured the full glory of his Words and used it to resonate himself as powerfully as he ever could. And he saw the Truth of what he was. He saw what would come if he did Fall. He was filled with anger, with fear, and with disgust at his many times of betrayal, both in his Symphony and in the others that exist. This cannot happen again. He raises his fist to the skies of Heaven and shouts out the first of his oaths that this cannot be again. And as he rides off to battle against Michael, his celestial form is already changing to grow black wings. Josh ^_^' ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 21:01:49 -0500 (EST) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: IN> Planting the Hook On Sun, 24 Nov 2002, Nigel Cole wrote: > On Saturday 23 November 2002 23:12, Jarrod Carmichael wrote: > > The scariest thing about hooks is that a lilim can shine your shoes 6 > > times. And then get you to work for her for a year. Ive always > > thought combining geas was a little daft. > > If it's a problem, just limit how many favours can be combined to 2 or > 3. Or insist that any combination of hooks must include at least one of > at least half the level of the requested Geas. So, if the Lilim wants > that Geas/6, she's going to need to get some level 2 or 3 hooks. Or just do what we do - make Geasa additive BY DURATION. It takes 24 insignificant Geasa to make one useful Geas, 7 useful Geasa to make one significant Geas, and so on. It's actually VERY balanced, if the GM is fair about setting Geas levels. - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian, Q4B4L! Meow! "Now, am I expected to trot off into bovine obedience by your manly swagger, or just MOO?" -- Portnoy, _Bloom County_ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2871 ********************************