in_nomine-digest Friday, January 17 2003 Volume 01 : Number 2935 In this digest: Re: IN> Would Laurence be a firm believer in this saying? Re: IN> Re: Words in 3 Souls Re: IN> Question about David Re: IN> Not exactly an answer to Rolland's reasoning... IN> The Abaddon Abbatoir Re: IN> In Nomine List & Arisia... Re: IN> Would Laurence be a firm believer in this saying? Re: IN> The Abaddon Abbatoir Re: IN> The Abaddon Abbatoir RE: IN> The Abaddon Abbatoir RE: IN> The Abaddon Abbatoir RE: IN> The Abaddon Abbatoir Re: IN> The Abaddon Abbatoir IN> Arisia game IN> question about the four horsemen of the apocalypse RE: IN> question about the four horsemen of the apocalypse IN> [fiction] more Photographs in Time IN> Two new artifacts. IN> Not exactly an answer to Rolland's reasoning... Re: IN> Not exactly an answer to Rolland's reasoning... RE: IN> question about the four horsemen of the apocalypse Re: IN> [fiction] more Photographs in Time IN> [3 Souls] End of Days Re: IN> [fiction] more Photographs in Time IN> Question about Stripping Forces ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 16:01:44 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Would Laurence be a firm believer in this saying? - --- rob scwalen wrote: > would Laurence believe in the saying "those who live > by the sword, die by the sword." In its original meaning, yes. The saying refers to those who live by violence becoming victims of violence themselves. The Sword is not about violence per se. Of course, Michael's version of the saying is more like, "Those who live by the sword will be shot by those who live by the gun." 0;> =====

Michael Walton, #US2002023848

"War may sometimes be a necessary evil. But no matter how necessary, it is always evil." -- Jimmy Carter

__________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 21:09:23 -0500 (EST) From: Neel Krishnaswami Subject: Re: IN> Re: Words in 3 Souls BC Petery wrote: > > >> So "Janus" is a title, not an individual name, and the Archangelship > >> is elective? *That*'s an interesting departure from canon. > > > > Yes, it's a title. > > So what does this do for Valefor? I haven't decided in detail yet, but list my preliminary ideas are below. If a player chooses a PC serving either Valefor or Janus, then everything gets tossed in favor of something that puts the PC right in the center of the giant secret, just as things start to fall apart. :) > If the Word Mechanism gets stolen the thief becomes the new Valefor? Yes, except that Valefor isn't a title -- it's just the name of the latest Prince of Theft. Demons aren't usually interested in giving up their names (or anything else). > What if the Word Mechanisim is stolen by an individual who isn't > affiliated with Theft? Well, he's affiliated with Theft *now*. > If it's an angel, would they fall instantly? Picking up all that > Naughty Essence can't be good for 'em. They wouldn't immediately Fall, but they would gain the dissonance condition for their new Word. If you are an angel and you suddenly had Lust's dissonance condition, life would suck. However, unless they can somehow relocate the instrumentality, they have trouble. This is because it is still located in Hell, and unless guarded random demons can show up and futz with it. It is barely possible to move Word-machinery to Yetzirah, the ethereal realm. However, Yetzirah exists as a kind of interference pattern between Briah (the celestial) and Assiah (the corporeal). As a result, its physics change constantly, as the two universes shift and slide around. Word-machinery works vastly less well there than on the celestial. Oh yeah -- Dominic would disapprove very very strongly of an angel with a demonic word. In 3 Souls, angels don't get Outcast like they do in regular In Nomine, because Dominic doesn't approve of criminal angels being let loose among humanity. Instead, they get locked up in very small cells, with plenty of morally-improving reading matter, until an angel of Novalis in service to Judgement judges them to have fully reformed. Needless to say, many angels break their own Hearts and break for Earth as soon as they get in trouble with the Inquisition. > What if the Word Mechanisim is stolen by a group? Yes, but they have to have similar enough Symphonies that you can program the instrumentality to resonate to all of them. That would be tricky but not impossible to find -- Monodemos, the Demon of Hiveminds would be able to manage something, for example. > Does one have to steal it from the group? Can the Word Mechanisim be > used in part, making a dozen of Mini-Valefors? That's a great idea for an adventure! You could run an Ocean's 11 style adventure in which a group of angels or demons decides to steal a Prince's Word. :) >> Words aren't necessarily addictive. However, they *do* shade a >> celestial's thinking, because the celestial's personal Symphony >> must be put into resonance with the Word in order to forge the >> link. Michael sees War whereever he looks, because he has been >> attuned to the word of War. > > Interesting. This could mean that angels _see_ their Word reflectesd > in the Symphony, but demons _feel_ their Word in their own personal > Symphony. (Angels use Perception based resonance, demons use Will.) That's just about right. Demons also want to reprogram the larger universe to fit their own prejudices, of course. One more thing: a Word's power isn't dependent on how important humans think it is. Even if World War 3 destroyed humanity's technological civilization, Vapula's Word would persist undamaged. What human awareness of a Word gives is *leverage*. A Word-bearer can perform miracles related to their Word, and the more commonly the Word shows up in human society, the more easily they can find a context to perform a useful miracle that affects humans. Baal has a grotesquely powerful Word, but it has very little direct application to human life. At best, he can apply it at the crisis moments in which a person decides whether they will embrace egoism or charity -- moments that come only a few times in a lifetime, if at all. The Demon of Hair, on the other hand, has a fairly weak Word. However, almost everyone alive has hair, and as a result, he can work a dark miracle of Hair on nearly anyone. (Yeah, go ahead and laugh, until your beard grows out and strangles you.) A Word like Hair or Shoes is considered a very desirable sinecure by many demons. It gives one a comfortable power-base, but not one so large that sharply ambitious demons will try to kill the holder and take it on their way down the descending hierarchy. You only have to worry about other time-servers and jobsworths. - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 11:27:37 +0800 From: "Janet Anderson" Subject: Re: IN> Question about David > Not I, but he seems rather Bearish to me... (I don't recall anything > in S1, but I could be wrong.) I don't either. I think it just said he was a Cherub and left it at that. If he was a Bear Cherub, I wonder if the Bear turned Malakite was the first Berserker. The description of his first battle as a Malakite certainly sounds like it. Janet Anderson ************************************************* Seraph: What do we want to do if he turns out to be an infernal? Malakite: I'm kinda hoping we don't find that out definitively. Leaving a long string of bodies behind us isn't a really good idea. - -- _______________________________________________ Get your free email from http://www.graffiti.net Powered by Outblaze ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 23:19:10 -0500 From: Rolland Therrien Subject: Re: IN> Not exactly an answer to Rolland's reasoning... > ...more like a bit of toodling in the background to > supplement his explanation about why demons feared the > Malakim. Wow, that's very good, and definetly in line with what Balalkim of Fate most likely go through and feel about their situation. > Here endeth the lesson. That it does. I definetly feel like I've graduated into the big leagues: Moe's expanded upon something I wrote. ^^ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 00:55:20 -0500 From: Rolland Therrien Subject: IN> The Abaddon Abbatoir This idea's been bouncing around inside my head for quite a while now. Finally had the motivation to try to post it up again. Ever wonder why Haagenti and Saminga are Associated in regards to one another? There may be many reasons for that, but here I present you with one possible reason for the continued association. In a section of Abaddon, there is a vast plain of grey inhabited by tribes of herdsmen, who watch over herds of various creatures: cows, sheep, pigs, varied poultry, but also more exotic animals such as zebras, emus, galapagos turtles, dodos... All of which are well cared for by the herdsmen. In the heart of this plain stands a huge, sprawling structure of dark grey stone. Upon closer inspection of the structure, splattered blood can be seen on many walls, all over the floors, and in some cases, even on the ceiling. The look of blood (both fresh, semi-fresh and dried) is emphasized by the smell of rancid gore that seems to permeate the whole atmosphere around the structure. Inside the structure itself are even more clues to the structure's purpose: Meat hooks all over, implements of killing and slaughtering here and there, large walk-in freezers... You're now in The Abaddon Abbatoir, Saminga's personally sponsored Slaughterhouse where the souls of the surrounding region are routinely dragged into for Essence harvesting and Force-stripping. Every day, within the walls of this building, fifty thousand hapless souls in various states of devolution are mechanically massacred, skinned, carefully butchered and wrapped, choice slices of their own flesh carved off for shipping to the supermarkets and restaurants of Shal-Mari. What remains from this horrible process is dumped into the drainage cistern that exists beside the building: a large lake of dark, rancid blood and gore. Within this pool, the soul remains reconstitute themselves into a new Soul Animal which washes up on the shores, where Herders take charge of it until it is called back to the Abbatoir for further force stripping... Saminga himself created the Abbatoir in response to Haagenti's never-ending demand for meats of all sorts. After all, Abaddon being Hell's only source of animals, it's quite natural, then, for Saminga to be Haagenti's only supplier of Meats other then human flesh (although he does supply ample amounts of those, too. Haagenti loves "Longpig"..), be it huge amounts of beef, pork and chicken, exotic meats like Emu, Zebra or Panda, or even the flesh of now extinct animals like dodos and tazmanian wolves. The Abbatoir even occasionally serves Demon flesh extracted from Servitors who've lost Saminga's favor. In Saminga's view, the Abbatoir is a case of mixing business (maintaining good relations with Haagenti) with pleasure (routinely slaughtering human souls to stripmine Essence and Forces from them). ...And he feels it's just a very nice addition to the landscape, as well. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 01:02:52 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine List & Arisia... On Saturday, January 4, 2003, at 10:16 AM, Prodigal wrote: > From: "Elizabeth McCoy" >> >> How many people would be showing up, do y'all think? > > Me, for certain. :) > > Considerably later, I mention that I will indeed be there. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 09:37:20 +0100 (CET) From: Unni Solaas Subject: Re: IN> Would Laurence be a firm believer in this saying? On Thu, 16 Jan 2003, Michael Walton wrote: > In its original meaning, yes. The saying refers to those > who live by violence becoming victims of violence > themselves. The Sword is not about violence per se. > Of course, Michael's version of the saying is more like, > "Those who live by the sword will be shot by those who live > by the gun." 0;> Hee hee hee! :D I'm snatching this one for the quote file! *giggle* - -- language, n; an intangible artificial construct for obscuring one's meanings and intentions to others. -ppint. Unni Solaas ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 05:58:01 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> The Abaddon Abbatoir Niiiiiiice. It makes so much sense. =====

Michael Walton, #US2002023848

"War may sometimes be a necessary evil. But no matter how necessary, it is always evil." -- Jimmy Carter

__________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 09:20:51 -0500 From: Cameron McCurry Subject: Re: IN> The Abaddon Abbatoir One horrifying thought occurred to me... >>Within this pool, the soul remains reconstitute themselves into a new Soul Animal I am imagining that the remains could even have the memory of its former lives. So you get a creature that has hundreds of memories all mashed together... Of course, they call it Hell for a reason. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 09:46:43 -0500 From: "Wajenberg, Earl" Subject: RE: IN> The Abaddon Abbatoir Amazingly infernal. I just question if any of the souls would rematerialize as anything so decorative as a zebra or panda. Cows and chickens, certainly. Pigs -- oh, yes. There's something chthonic about pigs, and of course they're Levitically unclean, and the Gadarene Swine originally infested by Legion keep rooting around the edges of the imagination. (Mark 5, Luke 8) Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 10:05:51 -0500 From: "Finder, Randolph J Mr NGB-ARNG" Subject: RE: IN> The Abaddon Abbatoir > Amazingly infernal. I just question if any of the souls > would rematerialize > as anything so decorative as a zebra or panda. Cows and chickens, > certainly. Pigs -- oh, yes. Given that the two DPs in question don't have much appreciation for Beauty, I doubt that that would be much of an issue. OTOH, I would imagine that the flesh of those animals which are extinct due to the gluttony of human beings would have a special flavor for 'Genti. Yum... Passenger Pigeon! I would imagine however that certain of them are picked out prior to slaughter for use by other DPs. I think that Kobal and Andre and Furfur would find uses for chickens if nothing else... Randy ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 10:08:30 -0500 From: "Wajenberg, Earl" Subject: RE: IN> The Abaddon Abbatoir Finder, Randolph wrote: > I think that Kobal and Andre and Furfur > would find uses for chickens if nothing else... What do-- Nah, I don't think I want to know. I *have* sometimes thought that Saminga might sell souls in horse form to DPs and demons who wanted mounts. Baal's cavalry comes to mind, as do the four horses of the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse. Less useful nowadays than formerly, of course. On the other hand, you can't take real horses into Hell or use them on the Ethereal Plane. And probably most of the cars in hell are VapuMotor models with their own disadvantages. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 10:25:05 -0500 From: "William J. Keith" Subject: Re: IN> The Abaddon Abbatoir Eeeeew. (For something written up for Saminga and Haagenti, that's a good thing. I think I'll tack this on to Hell's landscape.) William ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 14:42:18 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: IN> Arisia game Elizabeth and I will put up an In_Nomine-l sign on the note board at Arisia, giving the time and place of the In Nomine game she'll be running. Most likely it will start 3pm on Saturday, running until whenever, and will be in our hotel room. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 12:01:03 -0800 (PST) From: rob scwalen Subject: IN> question about the four horsemen of the apocalypse When Armegeddon comes would the four Horsemen be personified using celestial superiors? If so who would those superiors be? My guess would be that they would be all Demon Princes like Baal as the Horsemen of War, perhaps the DP of sickness as the horsemen of Pestilence if there was a DP of that word, i have no idea who woud portray famine, and perhaps Saminga as the Horsemen of Death. I hope to hear your suggestions soon bye __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 15:23:33 -0500 From: "Wajenberg, Earl" Subject: RE: IN> question about the four horsemen of the apocalypse rob scwalen wrote: "When Armegeddon comes would the four Horsemen be personified using celestial superiors? If so who would those superiors be?" I don't think there's any canon about it, but it *is* tempting. When I did "And I Feel Fine," I cast as follows: White horse - Tyranny - the Antichrist (a new character, see below) Red horse - War - Baal, same as you suggested Black horse - Famine - Mammon (see below) Pale/green horse - Saminga, same as you suggested Having the white horseman be the Antichrist is another traditional interpretation. In "And I Feel Fine," the Antichrist was a seven-Force Soldier of Lucifer, who had received three more Forces, eternal youth, etc. He was Secretary-General of the U.N. during the seven years of Tribulation preceeding Armageddon. He wanted to be a human DP, like Lilith, someday. For Famine, I broadened it to general poverty and economic collapse, and gave it to Mammon, who, in that scenario, had trounced Haagenti and resumed his position as a major Prince. If the Four Horsemen aren't DPs, they might be Ethereals, conjured into existence be the centuries of speculation about them, in a bit of self-fulfilling prophecy. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 16:13:11 -0800 From: Harukami Subject: IN> [fiction] more Photographs in Time The three I mentioned, plus two more I wrote today. ^^ But this time, linkage, as I forgot that some people are on digest and thus might see the swearing and all despite not wanting to. So, generic warning: These fics are 'snapshots' from moments in various Superiors' lives. Some of these Superiors use deplorable language, and there is occassionally some sexual references or connotations, or perhaps even violence. Do not follow these links if that bothers you. ~ Kobal - Quite Funny Really ~ http://haru_in.tripod.com/funny.html ~ Kronos - The Butterfly Collection ~ http://haru_in.tripod.com/collection.html ~ Lilith - Under the Weight of Man ~ (Extra warning for references to non-consentual sexual actions) http://haru_in.tripod.com/weightman.html ~ Novalis - The Coffee Table ~ http://haru_in.tripod.com/coffeetable.html ~ Laurence - Called to Cancel ~ http://haru_in.tripod.com/cancel.html Hugs to all, and thanks for the comments on the first batch, Harukami - ---- "I wish I knew what we were being kept so long *for*..." [To be concluded when the Malakim come knocking.] Just then, there is a knock on the door. [.........I hate you so much. ^^] http://haru_in.tripod.com/ Haru's IN page: Game logs, art, and fiction. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 17:07:22 -0500 From: BC Petery Subject: IN> Two new artifacts. >The Nerf(tm) Hand Cannon >3 CP per level Infernal Intervention: Angel wakes up and begins shambling about, arms extended forward, dragging one foot, slack jawed and vacant eyed. Moaning with an unnatural lust for... "...ffffeaaaatttthhhherrrrssss..." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 17:07:22 -0500 From: BC Petery Subject: IN> Not exactly an answer to Rolland's reasoning... So the speaker is a Balseraph who regards Hell as being justified in its rebellion against Heaven's Tyrant, but also regards Hell, or at least some demons, as being evil. Isn't this against the Balseraph dissonance conditions, getting caught in a lie? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 14:18:30 -0800 (PST) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> Not exactly an answer to Rolland's reasoning... - --- BC Petery wrote: > So the speaker is a Balseraph who regards Hell as > being justified in its > rebellion against Heaven's Tyrant, but also regards > Hell, or at least some > demons, as being evil. > > Isn't this against the Balseraph dissonance > conditions, getting caught in a > lie? Umm... no. You can believe in a cause without endorsing the actions or even motives of everyone who also believes in that cause. Someone can be both evil and -right-, IOW. Moe ===== Liber Licentiae Moeticae: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 09/18/02 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 14:36:45 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: RE: IN> question about the four horsemen of the apocalypse - --- "Wajenberg, Earl" wrote: > If the Four Horsemen aren't DPs, they might be Ethereals, > conjured into > existence be the centuries of speculation about them, in > a bit of self-fulfilling prophecy. Another interpretation is that the Horsemen are in fact angels come to execute Judgement. This is backed by an interpretation of the text that casts Christ as rider of the White Horse. In that scenario, the list might go something like this: War: Michael Famine: Marc Pestilence: Laurence (plagues are sometimes described in the Old Testament as the sword of the Lord, so it fits) Death: Dominic =====

Michael Walton, #US2002023848

"War may sometimes be a necessary evil. But no matter how necessary, it is always evil." -- Jimmy Carter

__________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 14:43:35 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> [fiction] more Photographs in Time Haru... I wanna be like you when I grow up. 08> =====

Michael Walton, #US2002023848

"War may sometimes be a necessary evil. But no matter how necessary, it is always evil." -- Jimmy Carter

__________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 19:28:46 -0500 (EST) From: Neel Krishnaswami Subject: IN> [3 Souls] End of Days A demonic campaign seed.... - -*-*-*- Carnivea pushed the briefcase across the table, so that it rested in front of me. I pop the latch, and swung the case open to reveal a briefcase full of neatly-bundled fifty dollar bills, and a large manilla envelope resting on top of the cash. I glanced up at Carnivea, and she said, "That's for you to look at what's inside the envelope." I raised an eyebrow, and she shrugged, and added, "I find nothing says 'I'm sincere' like a briefcase full of cash." So: either valuable or dangerous. Either way, I was in. I picked up the envelope, peeled back the clasp, and shook out the contents. Half a dozen big, glossy photographs slid out. I took a look at them, and my eyes fractionally widened. They were pictures of documents, written in Infernal. And at the top of the first page were the words "Military Posture Review: Executive Summary", and right below that was Baal's personal sigil -- "sealed by My hand". I was looking at a photo of a top-secret strategy document for all of Hell. I whistled, slowly, and I looked up over the photos, to gaze at C. again. She was tense, and hiding it badly -- she had retreated into her clothes as if they could protect her. Deliberately, I met her eyes, so that she could look into my soul, and see that I wasn't going to immediately denounce her. After a moment, she relaxed a fraction, and then said into the silence, "He didn't know I had a relic camera. I took the pictures in Hell, and developed them here, where no one would know what they said." I remained. and waited. She was still young, and prone to filling silences. "Look on page three. Look at the graph." I obliged, and saw a chart with two lines on it. One was Heaven's strategic offensive capability. The other was red -- our total strength. The red line was climbing quickly, and was due to pass the blue line in mid-2005. I put the photograph back down, and waited for her to spell out the conclusions she wanted me to draw. "Don't you get it? Once there are more demons than Heaven can kill, then they'll start the freaking War for real. No more quiet, because Heaven will no longer be able to assure mutual destruction. Armageddon is guaranteed by 2005, and that's the bloody conservative projection. I grunted. Carnivea stared at me for a moment, and then got up and started to pace, her hands at the back of her head. "Yeah, I know you're thinking, evil shoots, evil scores, right? But that's nuts -- maybe the Princes will live, but the casualty rates among our kind are going to be ugly. They predict a ninety percent kill rate in the Marches, and fifty-five percent of Hell proper is toast. There's a sixty-five percent chance that homo sapiens will go extinct on Earth, and you can just bet that the casualty rates among Earthly servitors will be higher than that. "I mean, hell, we worked our asses off to get sent up here, and now they're going to turn the whole planet into a freaking copy of Sheol. And once the Princes don't need to worry about keeping a light enough hand to keep us from defecting, how bad do you think it'll get? If we let this go on, we will be so far beyond screwed it would take light years to reach us from screwed. We have to do something." "What?" I asked, because I knew what her answer would be. "If we can kill a Prince, Saminga or Belial maybe, then we set back the timetable. Kill Baal, and maybe the whole thing never starts, and we get to keep the Earth the way we like it. Two years, that's how long we have." - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 18:44:00 -0500 From: "Josh Moger" Subject: Re: IN> [fiction] more Photographs in Time Haru... After following your fiction page link backwards and finding the "Leather bar" story, I just have to say- Kudos. And I mirror Michael's comment. Josh ^_^' ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 18:23:05 -0600 From: Levnik Subject: IN> Question about Stripping Forces I've looked through several source books, and I can find no information on how a celestial "strips" forces from a being and adds them to their own. Also, what kind of being (ghost, celestial, human) can you strip in this fashion? If it's something in one of the books that I've overlooked, the book and the page would be wonderful. ======================= Punish your machine.... Levnik ICQ 5750844 ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2935 ********************************