in_nomine-digest Friday, February 21 2003 Volume 01 : Number 2971 In this digest: Re: IN> Michael the Mercurian Re: IN> Hell before the War and stuff Re: IN> Forms of *OLD* cherubs... IN> Filking...nothing more than filking... IN> "Zones" in the Marches IN> Forms of *OLD* cherubs... IN> Hell before the War and stuff Re: IN> Forms of *OLD* cherubs... Re: IN> "Zones" in the Marches RE: IN> "Zones" in the Marches RE: IN> "Zones" in the Marches Re: IN> Forms of *OLD* cherubs... RE: IN> Forms of *OLD* cherubs... RE: IN> Forms of *OLD* cherubs... Re: IN> Hell before the War and stuff IN> "Leaders" of PC parties RE: IN> "Zones" in the Marches Re: IN> "Leaders" of PC parties Re: IN> "Leaders" of PC parties Re: IN> "Zones" in the Marches IN> Gabriel cured? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 18:07:19 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Michael the Mercurian - --- Cameron McCurry wrote: > Their natures are contradictory as angels go; > they love peace with almost the same passion as an angel > of Novalis but have no hesitation about fighting dirty. That is exactly how I think that a Mercurian AA of War would be. =====

Michael Walton, #US2002023848

Smart knows what. Intelligence knows how. Wisdom knows why. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 22:29:11 -0500 (EST) From: Stephen Dunscombe Subject: Re: IN> Hell before the War and stuff > Besides, "Prince of Lies" is a catchy name for a > has-been Seraph. What > do you call a confused Mercurian? The Marquis of > Mayhem? Is this a War > for Heaven or a wrestling foundation? > He's also often called the Prince of Darkness, which is a lovely polar opposite to Light... which he'd get no matter his choir/band. ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 19:39:58 -0800 From: Kim Kondratieff Subject: Re: IN> Forms of *OLD* cherubs... > That's why I throw out those idea grenades -- every now > and then one of them hits the mark. 0;> Indeed. :) Once I finish this image of my Balakite character looking dutifully possessive of the world (with the Interpol image superimposed over it), that'll be on my IN fanart list. Which means I'll be doodling the darn little things in my notes all next week. I wonder if a Deinococcus radiodurans Djinn would have any species bonus to resisting the Song of Light. [/geek] > Nah. Microbes are just unattractive, even with wings. > Kyrios and Shedim are _ODD_ (multiple modes of emphasis > both intentional and appropriate). Hmm. Veddy, veddy interesting. And true. :D I had a sudden thought, based on the _His Dark Materials_ series by Philip Pullman--like daemons, who 'settle' into a form that reflects their humans' personalities, would Cherubim fledge into celforms reflective of theirs? Also, as I remember, a daemon's plasticity while its human was still young was based on the human's imagination and intelligence--would particularly unimaginative Cherubim tend to fledge into 'common' species that are already extant, while the really, really imaginative Cherubim end up as representatives of species that haven't yet evolved? :D Food for thought! - --Kim Angel of Random Enthusiasm, wondering why she always seems to get so embroiled in discussions on Cherubic celforms... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 23:36:21 -0500 (EST) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: IN> Filking...nothing more than filking... Gregg Forge wrote: > Do not Trust the Smiting Angel. Motion is the answer. We are here to > protect you. > Do not trust the Motion Angel. He is dissonant. We are here to protect > you. This was... I'm not sure. Brilliant? Twisted? Strange? Perfect? Whatever it is, it sure is a LOT of it. Thank you. - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian, Q4B4L! Meow! "When nothing's funny, it gets easy to laugh at the drop of a hat - or a bomb." -- Devo ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 12:27:06 +0000 From: "Paul Kidd" Subject: IN> "Zones" in the Marches Recently one of my players (an Elohim of Blandine) was looking for a particular Dreamscape to help solve a mystery in the Corporeal Realm. Now while the player had the Songs of Dreaming he didn't have the Dreamwalk Attunement (he's a new PC and 10 Character points is really steep). The player turned to me utterly stumped on how to find the dreamer and ask, "I take it Vale is organised into zones?" He wasn't talking about Blandine/Beleths side or the Far Marches. He was refering to geography. The adventure is set near the American West Coast but the Marches contains the dreams of EVERYONE in the world!! How does the Elohim find the dreamscape he's looking for? I fudged the scene and allowed him to find the "area" of the Marches where the dreamscape may appear once the human had fallen asleep. His question was valid and I had no idea how to answer him. After reading through The Marches I'm none the wiser. The only thing I can think of is that the Dreamscapes of a certain people would appear near each other. ie: If you found yourself amongst a greater percentage of Chinese Dreamscapes you could guess that you were in the Marches connection with China. Anyone got any other ideas? _________________________________________________________________ Stay in touch with absent friends - get MSN Messenger http://messenger.msn.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 08:45:35 -0500 From: BC Petery Subject: IN> Forms of *OLD* cherubs... > For the Cherubs that were around near the very beginning > [...] were their forms limited to those of the Animals that > were around at the time or did they have forms that > included animals that did not yet exist? They would have to be forms that did not exist yet. From David's expanded write up in FotM (p9), "Billions of years ago he walked the Earth when the planet's stony face lay bare to the stars[...]." No atmosphere, no animals. Or maybe the animal forms of Cherubs came later. Does anyone know what David's Celestial form was before he turned Malkie? Maybe a Near Earth Object. He _is_ Stone. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 08:45:37 -0500 From: BC Petery Subject: IN> Hell before the War and stuff > [...]Kobal persuaded Lucifer that Hell should be > landscaped so as to be an inversion of Heaven, a place of ugliness and > torment[...] That makes Koko and Lucy the first punk rockers! The very first counter-culture rebels. Isn't Counter-culture a Word under Eli? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 08:14:37 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Forms of *OLD* cherubs... - --- Kim Kondratieff wrote: > I wonder if a Deinococcus radiodurans Djinn would have > any species bonus to resisting the Song of Light. ...or if the Smallpox Djinn have mostly died out. > would > particularly unimaginative Cherubim tend to fledge into > 'common' > species that are already extant, while the really, really > imaginative > Cherubim end up as representatives of species that > haven't yet evolved? Or better yet, species that _might_ evolve? =====

Michael Walton, #US2002023848

Smart knows what. Intelligence knows how. Wisdom knows why. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 08:18:04 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> "Zones" in the Marches - --- Paul Kidd wrote: > The player turned to me utterly stumped on how to find > the dreamer and ask, > "I take it Vale is organised into zones?" Somebody posted something about Celestial/Ethereal geography a while back. If the original poster doesn't repost it, I'll dig it out of my stuff. =====

Michael Walton, #US2002023848

Smart knows what. Intelligence knows how. Wisdom knows why. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 11:22:27 -0500 From: "Wajenberg, Earl" Subject: RE: IN> "Zones" in the Marches Michael Walton wrote: "Somebody posted something about Celestial/Ethereal geography a while back. If the original poster doesn't repost it, I'll dig it out of my stuff." That was probably me. I suggested depicting Heaven, Hell, and the Ethereal Plane as parallel Earths, one paradisal, one hideous, one phantasmagorical. It would certainly answer the original question of this thread -- where to find an individual dreamscape. Answer: in the spot on the Ethereal Plane parallel to the sleeper's bedroom... I shall try to re-post soon. Meanwhile, Michael, why not post your stuff, too? Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 11:43:53 -0500 From: "Wajenberg, Earl" Subject: RE: IN> "Zones" in the Marches Here, again, is my post on celestial geography: Here is a non-canon idea to give plenty of local color to the Planes in IN: Suppose that they are all, in varying degrees, parallel worlds. That is, Heaven, Hell, and the Ethereal all have essentially the same geography and astronomy as Corporeal Earth, though suitably modified. The Catherdrals or Principalities of Superiors and other major power centers thus correspond to places on the Earth we know, with analogous surroundings. Tethers connect equivalent points on parallel globes. Here are suggested geographies. Alternatives and elaborations are encouraged. Celestial Earth: The is the original Earth, the archetypal Earth of which our Corporeal Earth is but a copy. It is, of course, paradisal, bursting with life, including all the forms extinct on our Earth and the forms yet to appear. The Archangel's Cathedrals are scattered all over this globe, usually on top of a favorite Tether (which is not the same as the Tether that is most powerful just now). Jacob's Ladder: Jerusalem. The Seraphim Council Spires: Paris, at the site of Notre Dame de Paris. Blandine: Oxford, England, of the "dreaming spires." Christopher: Bethlehem. David: the Himalayas. Dominic: the Hague, in the Netherlands. Eli: at the mouths of the Tigris & Euphrates rivers, near the old Eden Tether. Gabriel: Mauna Loa, Hawaii. Janus: the jet streams of the stratosphere. Jean: the Van Allen belts, with the Halls of Progress in a geo-sync space station. Jordi: most of sub-Saharn Africa. Kahlid: Mecca, of course. Laurence: Rome, of course. Litheroy: New York Marc: New York Michael: the Plain of Megiddo, outside Jerusalem. Novalis: the Amazon river basin (Oannes: in the Marianas Trench.) (Raphael: Alexandria.) (Uriel: Istanbul, formerly Byzantium or Constantinople) Yves: Alexandria. Zadkiel: Mount Ararat Infernal Earth: This is a lifeless desert travesty of Celestial Earth, its sky lit by a red-giant sun, its ground eroded and plantless, its seas sterile and empty. Shal Mari: Los Angeles. Andrealphus: Los Angeles & Las Vegas. Asmodeus: Moscow. Baal: the Plain of Megiddo, outside Jerusalem. (Beelzebub: Rome.) Beleth: Transylvania, Romania. Belial: Vesuvius. Fleurity: Bogata, Columbia. Furfur: Los Angeles. Haagenti: Los Angeles; winter home, New Orleans. Kobal: Los Angeles; summer home, New York. Kronos: Alexandria. Lilith: Los Angeles; summer home, New York (with a view of the Statue of Liberty). (Makatiel: Venice.) Malphas: Berlin. Mammon: Zurich. [Was accidentally Geneva in the original post.] (Mariel: no one remembers.) (Meserach: the South Pole.) Nybbas: Los Angeles. Saminga: the Sahara, esp. the site of Carthage on the north African coast. Valefor: the pirate ports of the Bahamas. Vapula: Star City, Russia. (Vephar: the Red Sea.) Ethereal Earth: Rainbows, sundogs, and rings around the moon deck the clear skies of Ethereal Earth, and the clouds are full of color and lightning. All sunsets and sunrises are gaudy. The forests, deserts, seas, and plains are as stable as old memories, but the towns and cities move and re-model with unCorporeal ease. The Hindu Pantheon: Benares. The Shinto Pantheon: Kyoto. The Greek Pantheon: Mount Olympus. The Norse Pantheon: Iceland. The Voodoo Powers: Jamaica. The Dreamtime: Australian Outback. The Seelie Court: Glastonbury, England. The Unseelie Court: Badon Hill, London. Toon Town: Los Angeles. Superheros: North American eastern seaboard. Etc. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 14:34:27 -0500 From: Michael Bruner Subject: Re: IN> Forms of *OLD* cherubs... At 07:39 PM 2/20/2003 -0800, you wrote: >> That's why I throw out those idea grenades -- every now >>and then one of them hits the mark. 0;> > >Indeed. :) Once I finish this image of my Balakite character looking >dutifully possessive of the world (with the Interpol image superimposed >over it), that'll be on my IN fanart list. Which means I'll be doodling >the darn little things in my notes all next week. > >I wonder if a Deinococcus radiodurans Djinn would have any species bonus >to resisting the Song of Light. > >[/geek] [reactivate geek mode] Given how Deinococcus radiodurans works, a more accurate depiction would be a demon you could blow to bits with the Song of Light but he would then reassemble himself in minutes a la the T-1000. >> Nah. Microbes are just unattractive, even with wings. >>Kyrios and Shedim are _ODD_ (multiple modes of emphasis >>both intentional and appropriate). > >Hmm. Veddy, veddy interesting. And true. :D > >I had a sudden thought, based on the _His Dark Materials_ series by Philip >Pullman--like daemons, who 'settle' into a form that reflects their >humans' personalities, would Cherubim fledge into celforms reflective of >theirs? So, a Cherub of Novalis that liked to engulf everybody in great big hugs might fledge as an amoeba? ;) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 14:40:21 -0500 From: "Wajenberg, Earl" Subject: RE: IN> Forms of *OLD* cherubs... Michael Bruner wrote: "So, a Cherub of Novalis that liked to engulf everybody in great big hugs might fledge as an amoeba? ;)" Supposing it fledged as a *life-sized* amoeba (a few microns wide), this could make celestial social life awkward, even for a community used to accomodaing kyrios and ophanim. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 15:08:57 -0500 (EST) From: Stephen Dunscombe Subject: RE: IN> Forms of *OLD* cherubs... > Supposing it fledged as a *life-sized* amoeba (a few > microns wide), this > could make celestial social life awkward, even for a > community used to > accomodaing kyrios and ophanim. > > Earl The books have said numerous times that Divine geography is different from ours - it's not much of a stretch to say the same for Divine physics. (Indeed, "Heaven & Hell" talks about impossible buildings, etc.) It could well be that "life sized" doesn't make a lot of sense in Heaven. Also, doesn't the size of one's Celestial form depend more on the number of Forces one has? ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 15:28:02 -0500 From: Neel Krishnaswami Subject: Re: IN> Hell before the War and stuff Mervi.Hamalainen@uta.fi wrote: > > I'm getting ready to run my looks-sort-of-like-history campaign, > which starts before the Fall. Couple of questions, though: > > 1. What was Hell before the Fall? Was it created to be something > else? Did it just come into being when Lucifer & co were kicked out > of Heaven? In my 3 Souls game, Sheol (Hell) didn't exist until Briah (Heaven) made contact with Earth. The history/metaphysics runs like this: At the beginning Briah, the celestial plane had no angels in it; it was a place of pure spiritual essence. The whole plane was alive and intelligent, but it was not conscious, because it had no need for a sense of self, since everything was a part of it. Then, God opened a hyperspatial tunnel between Atziluth, the dimension of the Presence, and Briah. Making contact with God basically awoke Briah into sentience, and this was the origin of Yves -- he is the self-awareness of the celestial plane. Yves then travelled into the presence, and returned with the design plans for the souls of the first three choirs of angels, the Seraphim, the Cherubim, and the Ofanim. At some point after this, the Presence contacted the angels again, and told them about the Assiah dimension, the Earth realm. On that plane, there existed intelligent hominids -- the ancestors of mankind. The apes were intelligent, but the physics of their universe contained the second law of thermodynamics, which meant that they would all eventually die and all their selfhood would be lost. This marked the start of the Project (or the Great Work, if you are old-fashioned). The angels decided to build souls -- that is, celestial bodies -- for the humans, so that when they died on Earth they could be translated into Briah. At this point, the next two choirs of angels were designed and built. The Kyriotates were designed and implemented in order to investigate the Earth, and the Mercurians were invented in order to help the angels understand humanity. Unfortunately, Assiah is an extremely hostile environment for celestials. Any celestial caught on Earth without a body quickly dissipates and die -- which is why they use Vessels. It was even worse for humans; they just didn't "take" to souls very well. Most of the time, the celestial constructs would simply disintegrate before it can make the translation into Briah. In order to make the Project work, the angels persuaded Yves to divert a part of its mentation away from the celestial plane (which it was the personification of) and use it to project optimal life paths -- ie, Destinies -- for the humans they were creating souls for. This worked, but the parts of Briah that Yves stopped managing fell into discord and chaos, and became unreachable from the rest of Heaven. This was the origin of Sheol -- aka Hell. When the fallen angels were defeated in the first battles of the War, they fled across Yetzirah (the Ethereal) and made their way to Sheol, where the angels could not easily pursue them. - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 22:17 +0000 (GMT Standard Time) From: jgd@cix.co.uk (John Dallman) Subject: IN> "Leaders" of PC parties OK, parties of player characters rarely have leaders who can actually give orders that the others will obey even if they think they're silly. But most parties have one or two characters who try to coordinate things a bit, and keep them from loosing track of what's going on. And what I'm interested in is which choir do these turn out to be an angelic IN parties, working on the corporeal plane? I have some theories as to why some choirs tend to be less suited to the job than others, but I'd kind of like to take a poll without people knowing what they are. So, what choir is your party organiser? - --- John Dallman jgd@cix.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 14:24:05 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: RE: IN> "Zones" in the Marches - --- "Wajenberg, Earl" wrote: > I shall try to re-post soon. Meanwhile, Michael, why not > post your stuff, too? Oh, I didn't have a write-up for that. I just kept yours (and that's saying something, 'cause I keep very few things from this list). :> =====

Michael Walton, #US2002023848

Smart knows what. Intelligence knows how. Wisdom knows why. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 17:34:21 -0500 (EST) From: Diane J Donaldson Subject: Re: IN> "Leaders" of PC parties On Fri, 21 Feb 2003, John Dallman wrote: > So, what choir is your party organiser? The Seraph, generally. Though the Malakite steps in when he thinks the Seraph is being too slow or cautious. NEVER the Ofanite. djd ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 14:30:16 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> "Leaders" of PC parties - --- John Dallman wrote: > OK, parties of player characters rarely have leaders who > can actually give orders But the party in my short-lived campaign did. Everybody deferred to the Seraph of Judgement in most matters except when the fighting started. Then they listened to the Malakite of Stone. The Cherub of War was too much of a soldier to be a leader, the Kyriotate of Animals didn't care and the Ofanite of Judgement kept saying, "I just drive the car." And of course, none of them was going to take orders from the Soldier of War. =====

Michael Walton, #US2002023848

Smart knows what. Intelligence knows how. Wisdom knows why. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 18:18:14 -0500 From: "William J. Keith" Subject: Re: IN> "Zones" in the Marches >--- Paul Kidd wrote: >> The player turned to me utterly stumped on how to find >> the dreamer and ask, To some extent, I play it that you can get around in the Marches because you think you can, or get bogged down because you think you are. That this looks like physical motion in many cases is simply mental imagery being put on events. For example, one of the PCs in my game is physically handicapped, but mentally sharp. She can move in the Marches just fine. However, she suffers flashbacks, a GURPS Disadvantage which sometimes causes her, during stressful situations, to relive the accident that caused her handicap. If she suffered such an attack in the Marches, depending on the circumstances, I might have her think she needed her wheelchair to get around, and have to be convinced otherwise in order to move normally again. Someone with even less self-image might lucidly drem themself into a waist-high concrete block and not be able to move at all. For your player, find this dreamer, I would suggest that someone in the Marches set their mind on what the dreamer was like and begin walking in a random direction. An angel will locate a target more quickly if he knows the target well, because he will take the shortest path -- a demon will locate a target more quickly if he is extremely confident in his own abilities, because he will cover the odd "distance" of the Marches more quickly. (This would be outside a dreamscape, or a meeting on common ground, where people generally agree on basic rules of physics, and movement over short distances would be what people know they are capable of.) >> "I take it Vale is organised into zones?" Blandine divides the Vale into four Quarters, but these are not really physical and are mostly for administrative purposes. > Somebody posted something about Celestial/Ethereal >geography a while back. If the original poster doesn't >repost it, I'll dig it out of my stuff. You could be referring to Earl's, as he has mentioned; I also tried my hand at Celestial and Ethereal mapping (though I went topologically instead of geographically). Here's the section on the Ethereal Plane: In the Marches, says the book, time and distance are functions of thought; you can slow to molasses crawl, or cross countries in a blink. This sounds reasonable, if the events of which the ethereal realm is made up are thoughts themselves. There are the thoughts of humans, and the thoughts of angels and demons inhabiting the Marches at the moment; there are the thoughts of dreaming animals, and there are the spaces that no one seems to be in at the moment, with nothing particularly going on, which are, just perhaps, the thoughts of God. Time here is defined by the intensity of thought; mostly this magnitude is at human average, which is about the Earth-normal rate. However, it's always positive. Distance, on the other hand, is defined more along the lines of "emotional distance": "I feel we're growing apart," or "I'm so close to the answer, it's on the tip of my tongue." You're always at distance 0 from yourself, and positive distance from others -- even touching someone, you're as far apart as the inability to read their whole mind. If you feel a goal is unreachable, you might never get there no matter how much you trudge. Instead, the way to your goal is to think positively, to believe that what you seek is within your grasp. Need to find a dreamscape? Play "six degrees of separation," and (angelically) follow the closeness you feel to them, or (demonically) work at it until they're practically in the palm of your hand. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 20:39:28 -0800 (PST) From: rob scwalen Subject: IN> Gabriel cured? What would Heaven be like if Gabriel was cured of her madness and she returned home to her citidel of fire? Would god Replace her word with That of Archangel of Divine Wrath to cure her of her madness? __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2971 ********************************