in_nomine-digest Sunday, February 2 1997 Volume 01 : Number 010 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 30 Jan 97 22:14:50 -0600 From: Deathdog Subject: Re: Pedantic digressions galore! >>I don't think it can be argued that latin was 'chosen' because of its ease >>in translation to other languages (it's probably no easier to translate >>into Slavic languages than, say, Hindi is, and it certainly is no better >>for non-indo-european languages like Finnish and Basque). If one were to >>choose a language for its ready translatability and ease-of-use for >>Europeans, Esperanto would of course be a better choice. > >Esperanto? I dunno. From what I've heard about it (not much), it was made >to be a language that everybody could use, but to do that (and to keep some >semblance of cultural heritage) it tried to COMBINE languages... ugh. >Languages now are convoluted enough as it is... trying to combine them >all... ugh. Sorry, but thank you for playing :) Actually, Esperanto was created for use by the European Conglomerate that is unnamed as of yet. I forget what it's called. Anyways, most of the previous Western Bloc countries had some trade agreements, and were even going to share the same currency. Kinda like a collection of Federated States. The point is that Esperanto was an exercise in creating an artificial language based on one of the simplist ones to learn, i.e. Latin. The romance languages are very easy to learn compared to most others, but as many people who speak them know, they have lots and lots of exceptions in an otherwise structured language. Take for instance French. Now we can conjugate all the -er verbs pretty much the same way, but when we get to a useful er verb, like aller, it becomes annoying because it's irregular and doesn't follow the same pattern. Sooooo, Esperanto removes these irregular verbs. By doing this, it is *extremely* easy to learn for anyone, as the same patterns apply to all parts of the language. Since most of Europe speaks a romance language of some sort (mainly because most people living there are multi-lingual) it would be very simple to use esperanto as the language of default (trade, speaking, etc). It didn't actually work that way because people weren't so apt to actually *use* esperanto. Now, to address the original point of using esperanto as the language of choice for Europeans, that is 100% correct, as that is the whole purpose of it. But, to say that Latin would not be as easy to translate for as another language is wrong. Namely because latin is very close to greek, which is probably the first stem off the indo-european language tree, which also includes Sanskrit. Basically, we have Sanskrit and Classical Greek, then all the other IE languages come from them. When you go closer to the actual root, it *is* easier to translate. Hindi is infact nearly 3/4 sanskrit (in the same way English is about 1/2 - 3/4 latin). As far as basque and Finnish go, you might as well use Chinese, as there is no direct relation to them and Latin. Guess what I'm saying is that Latin would probably be the language of choice, followed by Greek and Sanskrit. This is of course for Western/Indian languages. Whoever was talking about the use of latin for obscurity for the educated people, that's not really true. Since latin was in fact spoken by the Holy Roman Empire, and most people could actually read during this time, it would make sense to translate the Bible from Greek to Latin for the masses to read. As time progressed, and the Republic disintegrated, people lost rights and became chatel, essentially. It was only the monks and priests who could read because everyone else was too busy working to stay alive. It is a good point to make that priests certainly did use the ignorance of their parishes to give themselves an air of superiority, and gain power (Hell, the king probably couldn't read either). But, this was a situation of the times, and they chose to not teach people to read. The only reason it would seem arcane to use the original latin when people were speaking other tongues is because mainly they spoke slang latin. Italian is nothing more than latin spoken by ex-roman people who have shaped the language over the years. Damn, this is getting long. If anyone is interested, I can write some more on the subject. Otherwise, I'll shut up :) *********************************************************** Brad Everman aka Deathdog, Mac programmer & Grammy-Winning Rap Artist "Friday, November 22nd: Downloading of pornography on the internet drops by over fifty percent as millions flock to see the new Star Trek film" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 22:35:37 -0600 (CST) From: rogue@ez-net.com (RogueLdr) Subject: Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #9 Ay yi yi yi yi...... that sure is a lot of text over just two little words!!!! Derek, why couldn't you have just named the game 'Angels and Demons' and saved everybody all this braintaxing? Just kidding........ Hi everyone, Rogue checking in here... Just finished Digest #9 (learning several new languages in the process!). February 5th, huh? That's just far too long.... I can't wait! Just a few quick questions here..... (and you'll have to forive me if I sound ignorant, I've not had access to all the pre-release materials.) #1.) If Soldiers Of God/Hell can become Celestials by gaining Forces, is it possible for a normal human being to do the same? #2.) Out of curiosity alone, does anyone have a copy of the example of how different Bands would approach a soda machine? I've heard it mentioned, but never seen it. #3.) Are there plans to release source material for individual locations or cities in the world and their Celestial activity, a la Shadowrun? Minus the "Whiz, chummers" of course. #4.) Are there plans for a line of miniatures specifically for In Nomine? I like the idea of taking WoD figures and plastering on griffon wings (Kudos to whomever thought that up.... I can't recall right now). #5.) What happens when a demon attains Princehood? Is there some grand fanfare and formal demonic party, or just a sort of "Congratulations.... now stay outta my face or I'll bite yer thumbs off"? OK, that's all for me. Thanks to everyone who's posted here, you've all been a great help in enriching this already-outstanding game. Thanks also to Derek for throwing this our way. Until the 5th! - -Rogue ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 08:54:34 +0000 From: "J. S. Cardella" Subject: Re: Pedantic digressions galore! So far, so good, but thank YOU for playing. To clear up a few fuzzy points: >But, to say that Latin would not be as easy > to translate for as another language is wrong. Namely because latin > is very close to greek, which is probably the first stem off the > indo-european language tree, which also includes Sanskrit. > Basically, we have Sanskrit and Classical Greek, then all the other > IE languages come from them. When you go closer to the actual root, > it *is* easier to translate. Hindi is infact nearly 3/4 sanskrit (in > the same way English is about 1/2 - 3/4 latin). Actually, no. Latin does not come from Greek, it comes from German (which the English language is 1/2 - 3/4 composed of). However, when the Biblical scholars were translating it from Greek, and they ran into phrases or words they didn't know, they made direct Greek correlations. Latin was the language of the Vulgate (the comon folk), and they wanted as pure a representation as they could get. Later, as time wore on, it did become the language of the scholars. > As far as Basque and > Finnish go, you might as well use Chinese, as there is no direct > relation to them and Latin. Basque and Finnish are the only two living languages which are NOT Indo-European. Chinese, however, is. Therefore, there are correlations between Chinese and Latin/French/Italian, etc. but they are far removed. > Guess what I'm saying is that Latin would probably be the language > of choice, followed by Greek and Sanskrit. This is of course for > Western/Indian languages. Again, actually Germanic. > The only reason it would seem arcane to use the original latin > when people were speaking other tongues is because mainly they spoke > slang latin. Italian is nothing more than latin spoken by ex-roman > people who have shaped the language over the years. Damn, this is > getting long. If anyone is interested, I can write some more on the > subject. Otherwise, I'll shut up :) This is true. I won't coment! > *********************************************************** > Brad Everman aka Deathdog, Mac programmer & Grammy-Winning Rap > Artist "Friday, November 22nd: Downloading of pornography on the > internet drops by over fifty percent as millions flock to see the > new Star Trek film" > Can you believe I have a minor in Linguistics? hat the hell am I ever gonna do with that? ************************************************** "Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog and it's too dark to read." - Groucho Marx ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 08:54:34 +0000 From: "J. S. Cardella" Subject: The list Hey everyone, Dronf here: I will post the soda machine list, if there is no objection (for copyright infringement) by our illustrious leader. Will wait to hear. So long. - - Joel ************************************************** "Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog and it's too dark to read." - Groucho Marx ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 08:52:48 -0600 From: Drew Johnson Subject: Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #9 On Thu, 30 Jan 1997 22:35:37 -0600 (CST) RogueLdr wrote: > Ay yi yi yi yi...... > that sure is a lot of text over just two little words!!!! > > Derek, why couldn't you have just named the game 'Angels and Demons' and > saved everybody all this braintaxing? > > Just kidding........ > > Hi everyone, Rogue checking in here... > > Just finished Digest #9 (learning several new languages in the process!). > > February 5th, huh? That's just far too long.... I can't wait! Derek, when did the work on In Nomine begin (that is, the English translation, not INS/VM)? I'm not trying to be rude or anything; I've just been noticing many folks who have been saying that they've been waiting for a long time for IN. I mean, I've been waiting since a little before GenCon '95 when I was working at the Atlas Games booth and y'all were selling the '10 Questions not to ask the author of In Nomine' t-shirts across the way, and I get the feeling that people have been waiting for a while before that as well. Congratulations on finishing the work! - --------------- [O]Drew Johnson [O] [O] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jan 97 8:51:38 PST (1651Z) From: "Brion K. Lienhart" Subject: Hello *phht* *phht* Is this thing on? Hello, I just subscribed to the list. I haven't got In Nomine yet, but I'm expecting it in at the Friendly Local Neighborhood Gaming store next week. I got yesterday's digest and saw the discussion on Latin. Not that it's relevant to the game, but a couple of really good (funny) books on Latin are _Latin for All Occasions_ _Even more Latin for All Occasions_, both by Henry Beard. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 14:49:23 -0400 From: revonoc@i-2000.com (Adam Conover) Subject: Re: Pedantic digressions galore! Oooh... right I after I posted my little letter, people, I got a wonderful, personal note from marq@azstarnet.com , who explained to me a lot about the stuff I don't know... :) Thanks. Maybe we should end this thread now though, eh? To think I started it off with my meaningless little post about Pronunciation... :) btw... sorry for my mis-information about Esperanto. In the light of new information, it sounds terrific! A romance language without irregular verb forms? WOOHOO! Forget Spanish... I'm gonna petition my school. >;) - --------------------------------------------------------------------- If life is just a game of Dungeons and Dragons, the DM really sucks! ======================================================= | Am I a butterfly dreaming I'm a man? | | Or a bowling ball dreaming I'm a plate of sashami? | | Never assume that what you see and feel is real! | ======================================================= Geek Code: G d? s+: a---- C+++>++++$ U>++ P? L>++ !E? W++>+++$ N+(++) !o? K-? !w--- !O M++ !V? PS(+)? !PE-(--) Y+ !PGP- t+(++) 5- X- R++>+++* tv+ b+++(++)>++++$ DI+++(++)>++++ D---(----) G>+++ e h r- y- revonoc@i-2000.com http://www.i2.i-2000.com/~revonoc/main.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 14:53:36 -0400 From: revonoc@i-2000.com (Adam Conover) Subject: Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #9 >#5.) What happens when a demon attains Princehood? Is there some grand >fanfare and formal demonic party, or just a sort of "Congratulations.... now >stay outta my face or I'll bite yer thumbs off"? I just had to comment on the last part of this, noting the reference to "A Dark Dream"... this... "thumb-biting" (as you whippersnappers call it), is obviously going to be a recurring theme when casually discussing IN. :) Ah, well... "I'll bite yer thumbs off" sounds a hell of a lot better than, "I'm going to trap you in a painting!", or "I'm going to feed you some lasagna!"... :) Whee! :) btw... any chance of some more IN short stories? I just luuuuved reading 'em... maybe a fanfic section is in order. :) - --------------------------------------------------------------------- If life is just a game of Dungeons and Dragons, the DM really sucks! ======================================================= | Am I a butterfly dreaming I'm a man? | | Or a bowling ball dreaming I'm a plate of sashami? | | Never assume that what you see and feel is real! | ======================================================= Geek Code: G d? s+: a---- C+++>++++$ U>++ P? L>++ !E? W++>+++$ N+(++) !o? K-? !w--- !O M++ !V? PS(+)? !PE-(--) Y+ !PGP- t+(++) 5- X- R++>+++* tv+ b+++(++)>++++$ DI+++(++)>++++ D---(----) G>+++ e h r- y- revonoc@i-2000.com http://www.i2.i-2000.com/~revonoc/main.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 14:57:45 -0400 From: revonoc@i-2000.com (Adam Conover) Subject: Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #9 >Derek, when did the work on In Nomine begin (that is, the English >translation, not INS/VM)? I'm not trying to be rude or anything; I've just >been noticing many folks who have been saying that they've been waiting for >a long time for IN. I mean, I've been waiting since a little before GenCon >'95 when I was working at the Atlas Games booth and y'all were selling the >'10 Questions not to ask the author of In Nomine' t-shirts across the >way, and I get the feeling that people have been waiting for a while before >that as well. > Congratulations on finishing the work! Again in the long list of replies from me about the LEAST important part of the letter... where can I get one of those t-shirts? Anybody happen to have one? :) - --------------------------------------------------------------------- If life is just a game of Dungeons and Dragons, the DM really sucks! ======================================================= | Am I a butterfly dreaming I'm a man? | | Or a bowling ball dreaming I'm a plate of sashami? | | Never assume that what you see and feel is real! | ======================================================= Geek Code: G d? s+: a---- C+++>++++$ U>++ P? L>++ !E? W++>+++$ N+(++) !o? K-? !w--- !O M++ !V? PS(+)? !PE-(--) Y+ !PGP- t+(++) 5- X- R++>+++* tv+ b+++(++)>++++$ DI+++(++)>++++ D---(----) G>+++ e h r- y- revonoc@i-2000.com http://www.i2.i-2000.com/~revonoc/main.html ------------------------------ Date: 31 Jan 97 16:40:14 EST From: Moriah <73407.515@CompuServe.COM> Subject: [NOISE] Pronunciation >From: Mark Cogan >Subject: Re: Pronunciation (pedantic digression; no IN content) > >I think it qualifies as 'dead' beacuse it has no *native* speakers: people >for whom it is a first language. > >I don't think it can be argued that latin was 'chosen' because of its ease >in translation to other languages (it's probably no easier to translate >into Slavic languages than, say, Hindi is, and it certainly is no better >for non-indo-european languages like Finnish and Basque). If one were to >choose a language for its ready translatability and ease-of-use for >Europeans, Esperanto would of course be a better choice. If you're defining 'dead' as 'no native speakers' than Esperanto is a dead language, too. Most people define 'dead language' as one that doesn't grow because it is not used for discourse. Scholars learn to read, write, and even speak Ancient Egyptian solely to continue their research. They don't get together and use it for communication. How would you say 'computer' in Ancient Egyptian? Latin is used for communication as a 'common language' in the Vatican. There are newly coined words, even for 'computer'. Papal documents are composed in Latin, the modern language version, and then translated into the other modern languages of the world. You would be severely limited in expressing modern concepts, even in English, if you had to first express it in a truly dead language. There has been no time since its inception when Latin was not spoken proficiently by a significant number of people for regular discourse. And, as off topic as this is, it is slightly germane to "In Nomine", the title. The abstract philological discussion over how to structure the perfect language is *way* off topic and best left to private email or the language newsgroups, please, y'all. Thanks. Peace, Moriah ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 22:40:43 -0400 From: revonoc@i-2000.com (Adam Conover) Subject: Re: [NOISE] Pronunciation > And, as off topic as this is, it is slightly germane to "In Nomine", the >title. The abstract philological discussion over how to structure the >perfect language is *way* off topic and best left to private email or the >language newsgroups, please, y'all. Thanks. > >Moriah Hear, hear! Actually, I have been... its jsut that other people refuse to shut up. >;) Let's get back on the subject, all you distractable linguistics majors, you! :) - --------------------------------------------------------------------- If life is just a game of Dungeons and Dragons, the DM really sucks! ======================================================= | Am I a butterfly dreaming I'm a man? | | Or a bowling ball dreaming I'm a plate of sashami? | | Never assume that what you see and feel is real! | ======================================================= Geek Code: G d? s+: a---- C+++>++++$ U>++ P? L>++ !E? W++>+++$ N+(++) !o? K-? !w--- !O M++ !V? PS(+)? !PE-(--) Y+ !PGP- t+(++) 5- X- R++>+++* tv+ b+++(++)>++++$ DI+++(++)>++++ D---(----) G>+++ e h r- y- revonoc@i-2000.com http://www.i2.i-2000.com/~revonoc/main.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Feb 97 00:07:33 -0600 (CST) From: kestre1@airmail.net (Andrew Getting) Subject: Re: Pedantic digressions galore! You're all wrong. The best way to translate is to destroy words. Sample: Beavis, now: This sucks, dammit! It SUCKS IT SUCKS IT SUCKS! Beavis, under out enlightened times: This is doubleplusungood. Don't think too hard. We'll do it for you. Kestrel ;> ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 18:56:00 -0600 From: dpearcy@io.com (Derek Patton Pearcy) Subject: Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #9 Rogue wrote: >February 5th, huh? That's just far too long.... I can't wait! Hey, three and a half days and counting. >#1.) If Soldiers Of God/Hell can become Celestials by gaining Forces, is it >possible for a normal human being to do the same? It's not possible for either to become celestials. Human spirits may become Saints, or Undead, but angels and demons are different creatures entirely. >#2.) Out of curiosity alone, does anyone have a copy of the example of how >different Bands would approach a soda machine? I've heard it mentioned, but >never seen it. Someone said they'd post it . . . (and it's Choirs, by the way) >#3.) Are there plans to release source material for individual locations or >cities in the world and their Celestial activity, a la Shadowrun? Minus the >"Whiz, chummers" of course. Yep. I'm working on In Nomine Austin even as we speak. (If I told you about the last three and a half years of my life, you'd swear there were angels and demons in Austin, too.) >#4.) Are there plans for a line of miniatures specifically for In Nomine? I >like the idea of taking WoD figures and plastering on griffon wings (Kudos >to whomever thought that up.... I can't recall right now). Steve is talking to a few people about it, and I'm sure there'll be a press release when something happens. >#5.) What happens when a demon attains Princehood? Is there some grand >fanfare and formal demonic party, or just a sort of "Congratulations.... now >stay outta my face or I'll bite yer thumbs off"? It depends. When a demon attains Princehood by having the honor bestowed upon him by Lucifer, after tirelessly striving to advance the good of bad, there might be a ceremony and some organized debauchery. When a demon attains Princehood through deceit and duplicity, assassinating other nobles and devouring others -- as was the case with Prince Haagenti -- then the (remaining) losers slink off into dark corners to lick their wounds, while those who sided with the victor quietly wonder if they're next. The latter happens more often than the former, another reason why the demons haven't yet overwhelmed the angels. Derek ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 21:04:54 -0500 (EST) From: Don Fnordlioni Subject: Book of Revelations... please don't? I'm wondering, offhandedly, if the Book of Revelations (hereafter referred to as "BoR") and its associated predictions and prophesies are going to make an appearence in any of the story lines. Specifically, I'm wondering about things like the number of the beast on all commerce, the four horsemen, the 7 angels, seals, and cups, etc. In short, I'm hoping they aren't brought up outright, but a mild, passing, and thoroughly ambiguous reference here and there might be nice. | Don Fnordlioni | donfnord@pitt.edu | http://www.pitt.edu/~donfnord | Please use PGP encryption when writing Finger donfnord@pitt.edu for key ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 20:26:24 -0600 (CST) From: James Kiley Subject: Re: Book of Revelations... please don't? On Sat, 1 Feb 1997, Don Fnordlioni wrote: > I'm wondering, offhandedly, if the Book of Revelations (hereafter referred > to as "BoR") and its associated predictions and prophesies are going to > make an appearence in any of the story lines. Personally, as the guy who's probably going to run IN around here, I'm going to have a semi-comical subplot running through every scenario, where demonic PCs have to do something pointless and somewhat stupid and demeaning to help bring about the Antichrist, or, if we run the good guys, where angelic PCs have to, I don't know, hold up traffic for 45 seconds one morning to make sure that the antichrist can't be delivered to the hospital for the switch. In other words, I'm going to have the actual biblical End Of The World stuff, you know, The Point Of All This, be secondary to the day-to-day work of dicking with the other side. Sort of the way that the AT&T-MCI long distance commercial wars have overshadowered the actual point of providing reliable, affordable long distance service. jk ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 20:47:02 -0600 (CST) From: Derek Pearcy Subject: Re: Book of Revelations... please don't? On Sat, 1 Feb 1997, Don Fnordlioni wrote: > I'm wondering, offhandedly, if the Book of Revelations (hereafter referred > to as "BoR") and its associated predictions and prophesies are going to > make an appearence in any of the story lines. That's a very good question. The first cycle of books, Revelations, can be expected to at least touch on some of those subjects, though to say anything would be to give away some important details. Rest assured that we're not planning on doing anything uncool with the game world, but we are going to liven things up a bit. Later, Derek ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 22:55:53 -0400 From: revonoc@i-2000.com (Adam Conover) Subject: Re: The "Balance"? First off... phew! All of that language stuff (stemming mostly from my innocent first post about pronunciation) is finally over! Hip-hip, hooray! Ok... here's my question. In most fantasy settings that have to do with angels/demons, or any sort of "ruling forces" (i.e.: Piers Anthony's "Incarnations of Immortality"... great series... reading it will give you some ideas), nothing can actually HAPPEN that will tip the balance. One side might be slightly strong at one point or another, but neither one will actually be able to "win". I think of it as sort of the plight of the Lords in Ravenloft (Ahh! AD&D! :) ... no matter what they do, they'll NEVER get what they really want. That's just IT. They CAN'T. Would it work this way especially in In Nomine? The general idea with a whole "angel/demon" theory is that of Light and Dark, Yin and Yang. Neither one can ever dominate. Am I correct in this? So, in any case... I guess my question is... how are the angels and demons motivated? Do they actually think that either side can "win"? Or are they just trying to preserve the "balance"? I'm sure that the Angels and Demons would probably have different opinions on this, too. :) I dunno... any enlightenment from people who have actually READ the playtest versions of the book would be helpful. :) - --------------------------------------------------------------------- If life is just a game of Dungeons and Dragons, the DM really sucks! ======================================================= | Am I a butterfly dreaming I'm a man? | | Or a bowling ball dreaming I'm a plate of sashami? | | Never assume that what you see and feel is real! | ======================================================= Geek Code: G d? s+: a---- C+++>++++$ U>++ P? L>++ !E? W++>+++$ N+(++) !o? K-? !w--- !O M++ !V? PS(+)? !PE-(--) Y+ !PGP- t+(++) 5- X- R++>+++* tv+ b+++(++)>++++$ DI+++(++)>++++ D---(----) G>+++ e h r- y- revonoc@i-2000.com http://www.i2.i-2000.com/~revonoc/main.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 06:35:29 -0700 From: "CFS Jason" Subject: Re: Pedantic digressions galore! - ---------- > From: J. S. Cardella > To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > Subject: Re: Pedantic digressions galore! > Date: Friday, January 31, 1997 1:54 AM > > As far as Basque and > > Finnish go, you might as well use Chinese, as there is no direct > > relation to them and Latin. > Basque and Finnish are the only two living languages which are NOT > Indo-European. Chinese, however, is. Therefore, there are > correlations between Chinese and Latin/French/Italian, etc. but they are far > removed. Ummm...Sorry to mess with your linguistics minor, but Navajo, or, Dine' is neither dead nor an I-E Language. Not that anyone cares. I remember how I hated these discussions about how to pronounce things in _Ars Magica_. Maybe we'll move on once the game is out and we can talk about something everyone knows about besides the title. ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #10 ******************************