in_nomine-digest Saturday, January 25 1997 Volume 01 : Number 007 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 21:11:11 -0600 (CST) From: fish Subject: Re: questions..... On Thu, 23 Jan 1997, jason schneiderman wrote: > >This there anything about the Christ in the game? How about the Holy Spirit? > > Not quite yet. At present, the game only deals with the lowest level of > heaven - the one closest to the mortal plain. JC and the Spirit are much > closer to God . . . Hrm. 'Closer to God' implies that, while close to God, JC and the Ghost aren't quite at the same level, which isn't entirely theologically sound. Many (most?) individual sects of the Christian faith hold that JC and the Ghost are equally divine as the Father, although it's generally the Father who gets all the credit... Indeed I think there were a fair number of random sects in the early Christian Church which tried to hold that certain of the Trinity were more powerful or influential than the other two; these were (IIRC) declared heresies with all that comes with that. -- fish. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 22:16:21 -0500 From: unseelie@warwick.net (...jason schneiderman...) Subject: Re: Greetings, introductions and all that. >Cool, Sir Badfairie :-) ;) That'll do, I suppose. And are you the Colored Sorcerer? >Question 1: Are Songs flexible manifestations, such as is Mage the >Ascension, or are they pretty narrow, like GURPS Magic or AD$D spells? >For example, could the Song of Shielding in the Dark Dream be used to >stop damage, as well as hiding rather distressing sights from the mortal >coils around? Actually, a little bit of both. Each "Song" is actually broken up into three separate ones: the Celestial, the Ethereal and the Corporeal. For example, the Celestial Song of Shielding is the one in Dark Dream; the Corporeal one does what you suggest, preventing physical damage; the Ethereal one protects against attacks of a celestial nature. Each song is a separate skill, but knowing more than one version increases your skill with the others. Think of it like the guitar, bass and vocals lines for a single tune. > >Question the Second: What is keeping the various Angels (terminally >tripped or otherwise) from being blatant power brokers? What keeps them from being "power brokers"? Well...they sorta *are*. It's just that they realize the power they're brokering isn't theirs. Most angels and demons are kept busy advancing the agendas of their supervisors; they're lucky if they get to advance their own now and again. What keeps them from being "blatant"? Echoes. Any act that a celestial takes against something of "this world" causes a discordant note to sound in the symphony that can be heard by celestials, sometimes from miles away and for hours afterward (only in extreme cases, but still...). > >Question the Third: Can you shed any light on Undead or Soldiers of the >Divine? What is the difference between them and humans, and how powerful >are all of them with regard to Celestials? Posted to the list already, under Colin Sng's questions. > >Please don't knock yourself out with the answers, if any. A short >description is more then sufficient. Hey...I hope I've been clear enough. Followup questions are encouraged and welcome. :) >Oh yeah, and Thanks. > >jdye@juno.com >The GM god - -J ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jan 97 22:13:11 -0600 From: deathdog Subject: Re: questions..... > Hrm. 'Closer to God' implies that, while close to God, JC and the >Ghost aren't quite at the same level, which isn't entirely theologically >sound. Many (most?) individual sects of the Christian faith hold that JC >and the Ghost are equally divine as the Father, although it's generally >the Father who gets all the credit... > Indeed I think there were a fair number of random sects in the early >Christian Church which tried to hold that certain of the Trinity were more >powerful or influential than the other two; these were (IIRC) declared >heresies with all that comes with that. Well, in Classical Christianity, they're the same thing. Sorta like the different aspects of Brahma er something in the monotheistic Vedanta school of Hinduism (visistadvatia I think). As far as other random sects go, yeah there were a few of those that pictured Christ/Holy Ghost as more secondary portions of God. And, no, they were not heretical either. A good portion of the Catholic Church believed that the Holy Spirit was granted powers beyond that of Jesus. This was sometime in the 12th-14th centuries, I think. St Thomas wrote some stuff on this...Anyways, sorry for the religious mumbo-jumbo. The bottom line is that it will be a kick-ass game (hopefully!). Having read the French version, I hope it is pretty much the same, with over-exaggerated aspects of Christian mythos. *********************************************************** Brad Everman aka Deathdog, Mac programmer & Grammy-Winning Rap Artist "Friday, November 22nd: Downloading of pornography on the internet drops by over fifty percent as millions flock to see the new Star Trek film" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 00:25:21 -0500 From: unseelie@warwick.net (...jason schneiderman...) Subject: Re: questions..... This time, the fish catches me: >On Thu, 23 Jan 1997, jason schneiderman wrote: >> Not quite yet. At present, the game only deals with the lowest level of >> heaven - the one closest to the mortal plain. JC and the Spirit are much >> closer to God . . . > > Hrm. 'Closer to God' implies that, while close to God, JC and the >Ghost aren't quite at the same level, which isn't entirely theologically >sound. Many (most?) individual sects of the Christian faith hold that JC >and the Ghost are equally divine as the Father, although it's generally >the Father who gets all the credit... You'll forgive me...my knowledge of Christian mythology comes mainly secondhand - that's one of the things that intrigues me so about IN. When I said closer, I meant "physically" so - as in "Jesus sits at the Right Hand of God" - and in one of the levels of heaven farther removed from the Corporeal, or even the Celestial planes. Essentially, PCs will probably never encounter a member of the angelic hierarchy higher up than an archangel. yours, Jason Schneiderman ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 21:24:23 -0500 From: Turhan Herder Subject: Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #6 Just wanted to say that I'm really looking forward to In Nomine like no other game in years. I've been following the game since I first heard about it a couple years ago and have been anxiously awaiting its arrival. I have a few questions. How do other religions fit into the In Nomine setting? Are they considered false, or are they explained another way? Also, are there other supernatural entities besides angels, demons, and assorted servitors of heaven and hell? I'm really looking forward to the game. Thanks! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 04:36:58 -0500 (EST) From: Stacy Stroud Subject: Angelic biology, saints, and religion One of the good Mr. Schneiderman's recent responses mentioned that many of the traditional saints had become archangels as of the present time in the _In Nomine_ universe. That reminds me to ask--where do angels come from, in the game reality? I've always preferred the traditional interpretation of angels as a totally separate order of created beings, myself (as opposed to the pop-culture interpretation of angels as dead humans). And most of what I've read of playtest drafts of _In Nomine_ seems to bear that out--as does the recent mention on this list that Lilith isn't a "real" demon, just a human granted demonic power (including, apparently, immortality and a place in the infernal hierarchy). But other information (like that mentioned above) indicates that at least some _In Nomine_ celestials were once human. Could someone officially lay out the possibilities for, er, "angelogenesis," please? (For example, can angels still reproduce by mingling Essence, as I recall from a very early playtest draft?) On a mostly unrelated note, is it possible to briefly explain how the various human religions fit into the _In Nomine_ cosmology? We know that Christianity and Islam have their own guardian archangels. Does Michael still watch over Judaism/Israel? There are hints that some non-Abrahamic religions also have archangelic guardians (Alain/Jordi for Hinduism and probably Novalis for Wicca/neo-paganism), but then again we have Uriel hunting down pagan gods in the Marches--which implies both the *existence* of pagan gods in the game universe, and their enmity with the God all the angels work for. Is there a way to get the full story on this without it turning into a dissertation? (Since trying to describe Islam and its place in the game setting in limited space was apparently the factor that got Khalid booted from the core rules, I'm not entirely hopeful that such a thing is possible.) Thanks. Stacy Stroud smstro1@pop.uky.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 15:18:41 -0400 From: revonoc@i-2000.com (Adam Conover) Subject: Re: Pronunciation? Ok... right off, I don't know much about In Nomine, because I haven't been able to get to playtest copies (yes, I'm too cheap to pay $10 a month. Or even once. Sosumi. :), and just subscribed to this list now... so at the moment, I only really have one, rather trivial little question. How do you PRONOUNCE In Nomine? I'm not really sure... up to the moment I've been pronouncing it "In Nohmeen" (with the sound of the letter E). But should it be "In Nohmeyn" (with the sound of the letter I)... This is a list of various pronunciations for each word that I've been able to think of... IN: in een en ehn (heh. :) NOMINE: NOHmeen (the one I'm using at the moment) NAHmeen nohMEEN nahMEEN NOHmein nohMEIN NOHmen nohMEN As you can see, I'm a bit obsessive about this... >;) Any help? btw... I'm waiting with baited breath. All the information I really have at all are the short stories on the SJG web site... and they look great! :) Like I said, any help would be appreciated. :) - --------------------------------------------------------------------- If life is just a game of Dungeons and Dragons, the DM really sucks! ======================================================= | Am I a butterfly dreaming I'm a man? | | Or a bowling ball dreaming I'm a plate of sashami? | | Never assume that what you see and feel is real! | ======================================================= Geek Code: G d? s+: a---- C+++>++++$ U>++ P? L>++ !E? W++>+++$ N+(++) !o? K-? !w--- !O M++ !V? PS(+)? !PE-(--) Y+ !PGP- t+(++) 5- X- R++>+++* tv+ b+++(++)>++++$ DI+++(++)>++++ D---(----) G>+++ e h r- y- revonoc@i-2000.com http://www.i2.i-2000.com/~revonoc/main.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Jan 97 15:38:10 -0500 From: sven@ll.mit.edu (Sven Skoog) Subject: Re[2]: Pronunciation? > How do you PRONOUNCE In Nomine? If memory (and Latin) serves... 'in' (spelled like it sounds) 'NAWHM-ee-NAY' That help any? -- S. Skoog ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 16:03:30 -0500 (EST) From: Don Fnordlioni Subject: Re: Pronunciation? On Fri, 24 Jan 1997, Adam Conover wrote: > How do you PRONOUNCE In Nomine? I've been pronouncing it as "In Nom-In-Ay," with the "in" as in the verb "win" in both cases. I'm under the impression it's Latin for "In the name of" | Don Fnordlioni | donfnord@pitt.edu | http://www.pitt.edu/~donfnord | Please use PGP encryption when writing Finger donfnord@pitt.edu for key ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Jan 97 16:31:05 -0600 (CST) From: kestre1@airmail.net (Andrew Getting) Subject: Re: Re[2]: Pronunciation? At 03:38 PM 1/24/97 -0500, Sven Skoog wrote: > > > > > > > How do you PRONOUNCE In Nomine? > > If memory (and Latin) serves... > > 'in' (spelled like it sounds) > > 'NAWHM-ee-NAY' > > That help any? Close, but the 'i' in 'Nomine' is pronounced 'ih'. Kestrel ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Jan 97 16:31:53 -0600 (CST) From: kestre1@airmail.net (Andrew Getting) Subject: Re: Pronunciation? At 04:03 PM 1/24/97 -0500, Don Fnordlioni wrote: >On Fri, 24 Jan 1997, Adam Conover wrote: > *** OOPS, I THINK THE DIGEST GOT MUNGED HERE. SORRY. -- DEREK Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 23:25:23 -0600 From: (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #7 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk >> How do you PRONOUNCE In Nomine? > >I've been pronouncing it as "In Nom-In-Ay," with the "in" as in the verb >"win" in both cases. I'm under the impression it's Latin for "In the name >of" Somewhat. It's "In the Name". The word "of" would be subsumed into whoever got their name slapped on it. This, like so much else, is touched upon in The Life of Brian. Kestrel, who failed Latin, but knows one or two things from it. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 23:06:19 -0500 (EST) From: Alex Feely Subject: Re: Pronunciation? On Fri, 24 Jan 1997, Andrew Getting wrote: > At 04:03 PM 1/24/97 -0500, Don Fnordlioni wrote: > >On Fri, 24 Jan 1997, Adam Conover wrote: > > > >> How do you PRONOUNCE In Nomine? > > > >I've been pronouncing it as "In Nom-In-Ay," with the "in" as in the verb > >"win" in both cases. I'm under the impression it's Latin for "In the name > >of" > > Somewhat. It's "In the Name". The word "of" would be subsumed into > whoever got their name slapped on it. > I believe it's taken from... In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Latin for: In the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost. - -- Alex Feely ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 22:43:00 -0600 (CST) From: fish Subject: Re: Pronunciation? On Fri, 24 Jan 1997, Alex Feely wrote: > > Somewhat. It's "In the Name". The word "of" would be subsumed into > > whoever got their name slapped on it. > > I believe it's taken from... > In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. actually, it's from the original french game, In Nomine Satanis. -- fish. ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jan 97 00:07:04 EST From: Moriah <73407.515@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Random Replies Please excuse that I'm putting all my replies in one, but they're all short, and it's easy for me to do it this way, since I get the digest. >From: unseelie@warwick.net (...jason schneiderman...) >Subject: Re: Khalid > >FURFUR? You named a demon FURFUR? One of the hippest words in the infernal >Symphony and it's held by a demon named FURFUR? Hey, sounds like the name of a guy in a metal band to me. From: unseelie@warwick.net (...jason schneiderman...) >Subject: Re: References and stuff > >Not really. I've already started work on my World-Of-Darkness conversion >rules. (No flames please; I couldn't resist bringing the vampires into a >world where they're the ones with the RIGHT cosmology). We think so, too. Vampires are part of the IN world. Whether they're tragically hip or not, is up for grabs. GM: "OK, your tragically hip Vampire is flying to Seattle when the plane explodes. He's stunned and falls 3,000 feet and is impaled on a picket fence. He now has three stakes through his heart and is eternally dead." Player: "Hey! That's not fair!" GM: "Maybe not, but it *is* 'tragic'." >From: unseelie@warwick.net (...jason schneiderman...) >Subject: Questions and answers... > >"Question the Second: What is keeping the various Angels (terminally >tripped or otherwise) from being blatant power brokers?" Besides Jason's excellent answer (it makes noise which makes them targets for the enemy); there *may* also be other explanations. E.g., God commands the angels not to interfere (too much) with human freedom. AND/OR Lucifer commands the demons not to reveal themselves because it makes humans go on demon hunts and gets them all too religious. Stay tuned to see if these takes on the Commanders make it into the supplements. >From: Stacy Stroud >Subject: Archangel/Prince correspondences > >[snipped lots of good and mostly accurate guesses about Archangel/Prince >rivalries] Stacy, you got most of them right. The GM screen has a handy-dandy chart which will not only show Archangel/Prince rivalries, but graphically show who is hostile to whom among each side of The War. The short answer is that there is no strict one to one correspondence between each Archangel and a corresponding Prince. As you supposed, specific rivalries arise both because their Words are opposites (Dreams v. Nightmares) and because both are fighting over similar Words (War v. War). Sometimes, the rivalry is one way only -- for now (e.g., Jordi {Animals} is hostile to Haagenti {Gluttony} who wastes animals with his carnivorous appetite; meanwhile, Haagenti ignores Jordi... until Jordi ever makes a hurting blow to Haagenti or his Word). Of course, while there are the usual 'most hated'; most Superiors will be more than happy to oppose and bring down any other Superior on the Other Side. >From: fish >Subject: Re: Archangel/Prince correspondences > >> How do Laurence's and Michael's bailiwicks relate? I'm especially curious >> since Laurence (rather than Michael, as has traditionally been the case) is >> listed as the commander of God's armies. > >Well, my impression is that Laurence is commander specifically of God's >armies on _Earth_... Yep. Laurence is more of a field marshall. Michael is Commander-in- Chief with his own Executive branch and elite troops. >From: Colin Sng >Subject: questions..... > >For the Angels: >This there anything about the Christ in the game? How about the Holy Spirit? >What of the Saints? and What role (if any) do mortals have in Army of Light? >or are they only to be protected? > >For the Demons: >Is the Antichrist mentioned? What about the False Prophet? What role does >mortals have in the Army of Darkness? or are only to be twisted? IN will have its own definition of 'Saints'. And everything else you mention is not addressed in the Core Book of IN. Some of these things will be delved into deeply; others will be left a mystery for the GM to ignore or answer for themself. The first cycle of books (The Revelation Cycle: I - V) will address some of these... stay tuned. >From: Dennis Palmero >Subject: Lilith & In Nomine Mush > >Also, I am creating, or at least trying to create, an In Nomine Mush. We >have set up the basics (globals, some news files, parts of heaven/hell, >etc.) and have a site located at alpha.magibox.net 6250. Until we actually >get the book in our hands things are subject to change, but we figured we >could at least work on the setting. > If anyone would like to help us, please send me an email, or send >khalid@ns.net an email and we'll set you right up. Fascist we aren't, but >we are trying to create something high-quality and hopefully popular. May we put a link to your MUSH on the IN NOMINE web pages? And if we do, is there anything specific you'd like us to say about it? Thanks, everyone, for your comments and interaction! Peace, Moriah Line Editor of IN NOMINE ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 00:28:29 -0600 From: dpearcy@io.com (Derek Patton Pearcy) Subject: Re: Pronunciation? >On Fri, 24 Jan 1997, Alex Feely wrote: > >> > Somewhat. It's "In the Name". The word "of" would be subsumed into >> > whoever got their name slapped on it. >> >> I believe it's taken from... >> In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. > >actually, it's from the original french game, In Nomine Satanis. You're half right. The original game was called In Nomine Satanis Magna Veritas, or INS/MV. The In Nomine Satanis part was for the demons, while the Magna Veritas part was for the angels. Derek ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 12:10:15 -0400 From: revonoc@i-2000.com (Adam Conover) Subject: Re: Devil Worshippers! (was Re: Pronunciation?) >On Fri, 24 Jan 1997, Alex Feely wrote: > >> > Somewhat. It's "In the Name". The word "of" would be subsumed into >> > whoever got their name slapped on it. >> >> I believe it's taken from... >> In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. > >actually, it's from the original french game, In Nomine Satanis. In the name of the Devil/Satan? Egh. Hmm... they probably got rid of "Satanis" to keep the devil-worshipping stuff down over here in the US... ye gods, we're so uptight! :) That's a good question, though... this game's going to be creating a LOT of controversy... I already contend with people who think that AD&D will cause me to make a sacrifice of my cat to Satan. :) - --------------------------------------------------------------------- If life is just a game of Dungeons and Dragons, the DM really sucks! ======================================================= | Am I a butterfly dreaming I'm a man? | | Or a bowling ball dreaming I'm a plate of sashami? | | Never assume that what you see and feel is real! | ======================================================= Geek Code: G d? s+: a---- C+++>++++$ U>++ P? L>++ !E? W++>+++$ N+(++) !o? K-? !w--- !O M++ !V? PS(+)? !PE-(--) Y+ !PGP- t+(++) 5- X- R++>+++* tv+ b+++(++)>++++$ DI+++(++)>++++ D---(----) G>+++ e h r- y- revonoc@i-2000.com http://www.i2.i-2000.com/~revonoc/main.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 12:14:45 -0400 From: revonoc@i-2000.com (Adam Conover) Subject: Re: FURFUR? >>From: unseelie@warwick.net (...jason schneiderman...) >>Subject: Re: Khalid >> >>FURFUR? You named a demon FURFUR? One of the hippest words in the infernal >>Symphony and it's held by a demon named FURFUR? > > Hey, sounds like the name of a guy in a metal band to me. Oooh... so what IS his word? I missed it. :) - --------------------------------------------------------------------- If life is just a game of Dungeons and Dragons, the DM really sucks! ======================================================= | Am I a butterfly dreaming I'm a man? | | Or a bowling ball dreaming I'm a plate of sashami? | | Never assume that what you see and feel is real! | ======================================================= Geek Code: G d? s+: a---- C+++>++++$ U>++ P? L>++ !E? W++>+++$ N+(++) !o? K-? !w--- !O M++ !V? PS(+)? !PE-(--) Y+ !PGP- t+(++) 5- X- R++>+++* tv+ b+++(++)>++++$ DI+++(++)>++++ D---(----) G>+++ e h r- y- revonoc@i-2000.com http://www.i2.i-2000.com/~revonoc/main.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 11:19:27 -0600 (CST) From: fish Subject: Re: FURFUR? On Sat, 25 Jan 1997, Adam Conover wrote: > >>FURFUR? You named a demon FURFUR? One of the hippest words in the infernal > >>Symphony and it's held by a demon named FURFUR? > > Hey, sounds like the name of a guy in a metal band to me. > > Oooh... so what IS his word? I missed it. :) Well, i believe that it starts out as Heavy Metal, but in the supplement (Night Music) i think he's trying to upgrade that to being the Demon Prince of Rock and Roll... -- fish. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 12:20:24 EST From: jdye@juno.com (JOHN C DYE) Subject: Re: Pronunciation? On Fri, 24 Jan 1997 22:43:00 -0600 (CST) fish writes: >On Fri, 24 Jan 1997, Alex Feely wrote: > >> > Somewhat. It's "In the Name". The word "of" would be subsumed into >> > whoever got their name slapped on it. >> >> I believe it's taken from... >> In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. > >actually, it's from the original french game, In Nomine Satanis. > > -- fish. > > Actually, I believe that the prior quote predates the game title by just a little bit :-) But yes, In Nomine was taken from the French game, which took it from the prior quotation to add a sufficiently heretical feel to the game. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 00:21:14 -0500 (EST) From: Lutetium@aol.com Subject: In Nomine: New World Order << hosts, you're not going to have to rely on subtlety as much. But if I'm in the Corporeal realm, I don't know from where or how Laurence is going to get me... is that guy on the corner a Soldier? How about that Secret Service agent? The CIA -- controlled by God? Makes a good case for In Nomine: New World Order. (I have a graphic for this, if anyone's interested -- the hand from the Plot cards, with the strings controlling the angel in the Building_In_The_Heavens graphic, and the In Nomine: NWO logo...) >> Yep. That's why *I* want the GURPS conversion rules. "The Catholic Church is controlled by the Gnomes of Zurich, who are led by.......waitaminute, I guess it IS the church I ought to be going to. " ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #7 *****************************