From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed Oct 1 16:21:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA08871 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 16:21:58 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id OAA27413 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 14:49:52 -0500 Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 14:49:52 -0500 Message-Id: <199710011949.OAA27413@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #372 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, October 1 1997 Volume 01 : Number 372 In this digest: Re: IN> In Nomine Live-Action IN> Tilimok & Beelzebub Re: IN> Las Vegas and Archangels (was Chicago and Lilith and Marc) IN> White Wolf's Games vs. In Nomine Re: IN> Baltimore Re: IN> Las Vegas and Archangels (was Chicago and Lilith and Marc) Re: IN> In Nomine Live-Action Re: IN>Chicago Re: IN> In Nomine Live-Action Re: IN> What's the Buzz? (was Re: IN> Tilimok & Werewolves) Re: IN> Las Vegas and Archangels (was Chicago and Lilith and Marc) Re: IN> White Wolf's Games vs. In Nomine Re: IN> What's the Buzz? (was Re: IN> Tilimok & Werewolves) Re: IN> White Wolf's Games vs. In Nomine Re: IN> Tilimok & Beelzebub Re: Re: IN> White Wolf's Games vs. In Nomine Re: IN> Chez Ennui's Son-o'-God thing Re: IN> White Wolf's Games vs. In Nomine Re: IN> In Nomine Live-Action Re: IN> Tilimok & Werewolves Re: IN> In Nomine Live-Action Re: IN> A thought - opinions wanted Re: IN> Jordi Re: IN> What's the Buzz? (was Re: IN> Tilimok & Werewolves) Re: IN> What's the Buzz? (was Re: IN> Tilimok & Werewolves) IN> Free will, heaven and hell Re: IN> Re: IN A thought - opinions wanted Re: Re: IN> White Wolf's Games vs. In Nomine Re: IN> What's the Buzz? (was Re: IN> Tilimok & Werewolves) Re: IN> In Nomine Live-Action Re: IN> Lilim and Malakim (fwd) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 11:01:17 -0400 (EDT) From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Live-Action In a message dated 9/30/97 9:56:59 PM, you wrote: >On Tue, 30 Sep 97 23:37 EDT, Walter Milliken wrote: > >>Why stop at a simple die-roller? IR stuff is pretty easy and cheap >>these days. Should be possible to build a wand-like remote control sort >>of gadget with a small LCD on it. Be easy to prototype on a PDA of some >>sort, like a Newton, though a Newton is both too expensive and too >>cumbersome. > >Some pocket calculators have a random function. Mine generates a random >number between .000 and .999. The low tech equivalent would be 3d10 in a >clear container. Heck, I had a *watch* that did the random number thing *ten years ago*... Mark (Who was a hopelss techno-geek at that point.) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 10:52:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Stacy Stroud Subject: IN> Tilimok & Beelzebub >TILIMOK, DEMON OF BEASTS > >"Scientists classify humans as an animal, some distance removed from the >rest of the animal kingdom. Hah! I knew it all along, and so many humans >are closer to animals than they know..." A while back, someone posted a very similar demon to the list, using the name Beelzebub (or one of the cooler spelling variations), Prince of Beasts. (I assume Beelzy was chosen 'cause of his title "Lord of the Flies," which is reminiscent of the Goldman book about the descent of humans into bestial behavior.) It was one of the 2 or 3 unofficial Prince writeups that I really liked, but it doesn't seem to have made it onto ArchBeth's character pages. Is the original author of that still around? Could it be re-posted? (Not that I don't want to see Tilimok, too. The more, the merrier. Your post just reminded me that something similar had been done earlier.) Stacy Stroud sstroud@uky.campus.mci.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Oct 97 11:11 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Las Vegas and Archangels (was Chicago and Lilith and Marc) > Besides..Jean's stuff always works, what with that bookshelf...he >CAN'T make mistakes. And as history shows well, the really NEAT things >usually come about from mistakes... Jean would probably consider that a rather peculiar human conceit. "Only the incompetent must discover things by accident." Vapula relies heavily on the serendipity factor, I suspect.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 11:24:42 -0400 (EDT) From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: IN> White Wolf's Games vs. In Nomine I hate to say this, but what annoys *me* most about the World of Darkness{tm} is neither the system nor the background, but some of the players. These are the "isn't it cool to be evil" types that make me wish I were a Malakim of Michael and could smite them with a Bloody Great Axe {tm}. If you've never been to a Northwest SF/F Convention, you've probably never heard of Imperial Starbase Seattle, but they had much the same problem with munchkins and druggies and so on. But this is where my concerns for In Nomine come in. With the potential to have Demons as PC's, these same "I'm more evil than you are" types could overrun any GM's plans in a LARP or tabletop game. My solution so far (as GM) has been to ban demons and bash Munchkins into line. (i.e., your combat monster can be outdone by my combat monster.) Hoping for the best, fearing the worst, Mark (Who really *likes* IN's game mechanics...) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 18:12:02 -0500 (CDT) From: Shadowcat Subject: Re: IN> Baltimore On Tue, 30 Sep 1997, Redneck Gaijin wrote: > Jordi -never- approves of the imprisonment of animals anywhere. > > Jordi doesn't give a damn about educating human children, except to provide > 'object lessons' where he can. > > Jordi would be ecstatic if every human in existence just -vanished.- > > So I sincerely doubt he's helping anybody with anything about any aquarium > or zoo. I'm not too sure about this. There are quitre a few zoos, the ones in Milwaukee, and Racine WI. that assist in a breeding program to reintoduce some species back into the wilds. Milkyway has assisted in breeding 4 tigers to be released into the wild, just since I started hanging around a few years ago. I think that Jordi would condone zoos, and such under those cincumstances. Shadowcat All cats may look upon a king. No comment on the Queen ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Oct 97 11:27 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Las Vegas and Archangels (was Chicago and Lilith and Marc) [me:] >>While Jean may have the Secrets of the Universe(TM) on his bookshelf, he >>is neither omniscient nor omnipotent. I figure he can make anything he >>wants, but doesn't necessarily think of everything that's possible. >>Some of Vap's gadgets may surprise him. And it's always useful to know >>how close Vapula is to some of them more dangerous bits of understanding >>or knowledge. After all, spies don't stop spying on the other side >>because they know the answers -- they want to know if the other side >>does.... [Redneck:] >This gives Jean more credit, actually, than I give him. > >I interpret the SOurcebook writeup for him as making him the Archangel >version of the Pointy Haired Boss. In -theory- he knows all technology and >therefore has no need to study the Enemy's work. In reality, he doesn't know >nearly as much as he thinks he does, so when in doubt he squashes or >eliminates or marginalizes strange new tech. I think you're doing Jean a disservice. There is certainly a mildly negative impression in the basic writeup of him, but I interpret this as mostly other people's opinion of him. He's an Elohite, and I tend to view that Choir as the least understood one in Heaven (the Choir writeup supports this somewhat). The Elohim's wide-angle view of the Symphony makes them rather ineffable -- respected but not always liked. My model of Jean fits the description given, but he's one of those really irritating supergenius types who actually *does* know the answers, and tends to rub your nose in the fact. He's very busy, so he tends to use his Servitors as extensions of himself -- he's the brain, they're the hands. It's simply more efficient that way. Thus the micromanagement aspect. I suspect that his Servitors who routinely do things *right* (by his assessment) get less supervision... but still have to write up lots of reports, so Jean has enough data on what's going on. >(COnsider this: the first fax machine was invented in the 1860s as a side >effect of the telegraph. A clear case of Jean squashing a bit of tech until >he thought mankind was ready More likely a case of human inefficiency than celestial intervention. If I remember the writeup correctly, Jean does *not* surpress anything humans invent for themselves, but he *does* try to stop tech introduced by diabolicals. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 18:34:14 -0500 (CDT) From: Shadowcat Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Live-Action On Fri, 26 Sep 1997, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > At 2:38 PM -0300 9/26/97, Andre Ribeiro wrote: > >MarkDEddy@aol.com wrote: > [...]> > >> Mark (I wanna be a Cherub of David!) > > > > I just can't wait to meet the Lilim players... :-) > > > > Andre > > I'm sure they'd dress appropriately, most dread Prince Andre. > > (Hey, another reason to wander around in the spandex and leather...) YES, PLEASE. I would pay to see this... Shadowcat > > --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor > GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ > > All cats may look upon a king. No comment on the Queen ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 18:25:18 -0500 (CDT) From: Shadowcat Subject: Re: IN>Chicago # If you are in need of a teather to Saminga, there are more then enough graveyards, including "Bachelors feild" said to be the most haunted grave yard in Chicago, if not the country. I found a neat websight of the Chicago cemetaries at WWW.graveyards.com Check it out it is realy cool,plus it is on the death-ring. Shadowcat All cats may look upon a king. No comment on the Queen ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 18:37:25 -0500 (CDT) From: Shadowcat Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Live-Action On Tue, 30 Sep 1997, John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: > On Sep 29, 6:04pm, Andre Ribeiro wrote: > > Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Live-Action > > tom timberlake wrote: > > > > > John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: > > > > > > > Remember the electronic dice thingy, Dragonbone? > > > > > Would make a good klaive handle for WWLive [Laws of the Wild]; or it > > > would be a good flaming sword for a LARP Celestial. > > > > Wow, it sounds great, but I guess it's never made its way down > > here... I have never seen it. :-( > > Almost _no one_ has seen one beyond the old-timers. They > faded from view about eight(?) years ago and are awfully hard to > come by now. With the advances in electronics, they could probably > be the size of a keychain now, but would they sell? (They were > _awesome_ when dice were too inconvenient to use.) I still have 3 of them. I used them quite often to decide who got to pick up the tab at the resteraunt (we were a weird group), the person with the highest roll was permitted to pick up the tab for the table. (I told you we were weird) Shadowcat All cats may look upon a king. No comment on the Queen ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 12:04:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> What's the Buzz? (was Re: IN> Tilimok & Werewolves) On Wed, 1 Oct 1997, Donald G Bixler wrote: [snip very nice writeup] > Allied: Saminga > Associated: Beleth, Lilith I'm rather surprised not to see Baal or Belial here. The War can always make use of agents provocateur, and Belial is into wanton destruction... The association with Lilith confused me, until I thought about it. The Word of Freedom covers anarchy, too, and nature is the ultimate anarchy. > Hostile: Asmodeus, Haagenti, Malphas > Enemy: Nybbas I dunno about that last one....how many 'animal attack' shows have there been lately? Then there's _Cujo_..... Just rambling. Very nice job. :) - -- Casca (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Oct 1997 12:45:43 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Las Vegas and Archangels (was Chicago and Lilith and Marc) Walter Milliken wrote, of Jean: > He's very busy, so he > tends to use his Servitors as extensions of himself -- he's the brain, > they're the hands. It's simply more efficient that way. Thus the > micromanagement aspect. Of course, he wouldn't BE so busy if he didn't micromanage so much, but does this every penetrate? No. He's not stupid, so the basic reason must be that he *likes* being busy. Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 12:51:07 -0400 (EDT) From: IQJason@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> White Wolf's Games vs. In Nomine " If you've never been to a Northwest SF/F Convention, you've probably never heard of Imperial Starbase Seattle, but they had much the same problem with munchkins and druggies and so on." Maybe I'm missing a few key connections. What does Imperial Starbase anything have to do with the World of Darkness? And are you implying that WoD players are, on the whole, munchkins and druggies? "But this is where my concerns for In Nomine come in. With the potential to have Demons as PC's, these same "I'm more evil than you are" types could overrun any GM's plans in a LARP or tabletop game." Assuming the GM allows demonic PCs, he/she'll probably have plots in place for them, yes? Kind of like allowing Sabbat into MET. yours, - -J ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Oct 1997 13:22:49 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> What's the Buzz? (was Re: IN> Tilimok & Werewolves) Casca wrote: > The association with Lilith confused me, until I thought about it. > The Word of Freedom covers anarchy, too, and nature is the ultimate > anarchy. Um. Lots of animals live in very orderly societies. Even non-social organisms form parts of ecologies that exhibit lawful behavior. Any organism is an intricate and orchestrated mechanism. And, below the level of the organism, matter runs according to natural law. Granted, this is stretching the meaning of "law" some, but likewise is it stretching "anarchy" to include nature's chaotic elements. Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 13:37:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Gregory Littmann Subject: Re: IN> White Wolf's Games vs. In Nomine > I hate to say this, but what annoys *me* most about the World of Darkness{tm} > is neither the system nor the background, but some of the players. These are > the "isn't it cool to be evil" types that make me wish I were a Malakim of > Michael and could smite them with a Bloody Great Axe {tm}. In Nomine seems to be directly targeted at such people. I mean, why else play a demon unless you think it would be fun to play someone evil? > But this is where my concerns for In Nomine come in. With the potential to > have Demons as PC's, these same "I'm more evil than you are" types could > overrun any GM's plans in a LARP or tabletop game. Overrun the GMs plans? Surely, if the GM is allowing the players to be demons, he is *expecting* them to be as evil as they can. And so the players *should* be if they are playing their characters. If you don't want evil in great steaming bucketsful, don't play demons in In Nomine. > My solution so far (as > GM) has been to ban demons The best, and only, thing to do if you don't want evil P.C.s in your In Nomine game. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 12:16:31 -0500 (CDT) From: Donald G Bixler Subject: Re: IN> Tilimok & Beelzebub > A while back, someone posted a very similar demon to the list, using the > name Beelzebub (or one of the cooler spelling variations), Prince of > Beasts. (I assume Beelzy was chosen 'cause of his title "Lord of the > Flies," which is reminiscent of the Goldman book about the descent of > humans into bestial behavior.) It was one of the 2 or 3 unofficial Prince > writeups that I really liked, but it doesn't seem to have made it onto > ArchBeth's character pages. The ArcAngel just doesn't like me. ;'} I'm glad that you liked it, as is my wife, I'm sure. > Is the original author of that still around? Could it be re-posted? Yes and already done. > (Not that I don't want to see Tilimok, too. The more, the merrier. Your > post just reminded me that something similar had been done earlier.) Right. I'd like to see his as well. > Stacy Stroud > sstroud@uky.campus.mci.net Oops da Ogre, look for the subject line IN> Waht's the Buzz? mudgb4@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 13:46:05 -0400 (EDT) From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: Re: IN> White Wolf's Games vs. In Nomine In a message dated 10/1/97 10:21:26 AM, you wrote: >" If you've never been to a Northwest SF/F Convention, you've probably never >heard of Imperial Starbase Seattle, but they had much the same problem with >munchkins and >druggies and so on." > >Maybe I'm missing a few key connections. What does Imperial Starbase anything >have to do with the World of Darkness? And are you implying that WoD players >are, on the whole, munchkins and druggies? Right, key connections, I knew I was missing something. ISS was based on the "Mirror, Mirror" episode of Star Trek. "We aren't Starfleet, we're Imperial Starfleet, we're evil." This attitude led to a *lot* of problems for the leaders caused by a minority of players, which is my concern. This past year, in one of Seattle's suburbs, a family was killed by a badly disturbed pair of young men who had been hanging out with World of Darkness LARPers. I'm not talking about an "on the whole" situation, I'm talking about one or two bad fruit ruining the game for a whole lot of people. > >"But this is where my concerns for In Nomine come in. With the potential to >have Demons as PC's, these same "I'm more evil than you are" types could >overrun any GM's plans in a LARP or tabletop game." > >Assuming the GM allows demonic PCs, he/she'll probably have plots in place >for them, yes? Kind of like allowing Sabbat into MET. I would think so, but my concern is still the disturbed individuals who cause problems, not the hard-core roleplayers who like the chalenge. > >yours, >-J Mark (sorry about the confusion...) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 13:52:51 -0400 From: johnk@ascc01.ascc.lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) Subject: Re: IN> Chez Ennui's Son-o'-God thing On Sep 30, 3:00pm, lugaid@seanet.com wrote: > Subject: Re: IN> Chez Ennui's Son-o'-God thing > On 1997-09-30 in_nomine-l@lists.io.com said to lugaid@seanet.com > >Let's imagine that Jesus is a Saint sent to earth to > >help people, instruct and teach. Why not send back one of > >the first souls to reach heaven, Abel? According to the > >bible, he was a good man, and reverent. For a more fun > >twist, what if _Cain_ had redeemed himself and was sent > >back from heaven to help his fellow man? ;) > > hmm... those are some darn good thoughts... but i think i will make Him > Adam, the first created man, come to make penance for his Original Sin, > among other things... or maybe He is actually Adam Qadmon, that is to > say, that Adam and Eve were reunited into the one being that they were > originally... yeah, i think i'll use that... > I thought of Adam, but Able/Cain seemed like more fun! - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 12:38:27 -0500 (CDT) From: Donald G Bixler Subject: Re: IN> White Wolf's Games vs. In Nomine > I hate to say this, but what annoys *me* most about the World of Darkness{tm} > is neither the system nor the background, but some of the players. These are > the "isn't it cool to be evil" types that make me wish I were a Malakim of > Michael and could smite them with a Bloody Great Axe {tm}. If you've never > been to a Northwest SF/F Convention, you've probably never heard of Imperial > Starbase Seattle, but they had much the same problem with munchkins and > druggies and so on. Out of curiosity, what in particular is it that bothers you? Is it the idea of someone enjoying the thought of being evil, or something else, such as a poor treatment of the character's morality and thought processes? (IE the guy in AD&D who's either CN "I can do whatever I want." or CE "I can be a jerk because that's my alignment.") The former is a more serious problem and has much to do with point of view, religion, and other touchy hard-to-define fun, while the latter is correctable in those who suffer from it. I would, however like to note that while I find the behavior as described in the parenthetical comment annoying, there are those who prefer their roleplaying that way. Hey, if that's how they enjoy playing their game, more power to them, but they do seem to be in the minority of those I know. We are, after all, talking about a game, where if everyone's having a good time, who are we to criticize them? > But this is where my concerns for In Nomine come in. With the potential to > have Demons as PC's, these same "I'm more evil than you are" types could > overrun any GM's plans in a LARP or tabletop game. My solution so far (as > GM) has been to ban demons and bash Munchkins into line. (i.e., your combat > monster can be outdone by my combat monster.) I prefer to use either more direct methods "Bob, I think that we need to discuss your character a little." or subtle ones for those who I know can do better, but sometimes fall prey to minmaxer or munchkin tendencies. "Gee, Mike, the police would really like to know why you're carrying around a mortar in your trunk. What? You mean you don't have any Fast-Talk or Law skill? Hmmm..." Likewise, I'm rather disappointed to hear that you don't allow demons. I prefer demons to angels and find them rather fun to play. I never imagined how much fun a (for the record non-deluded as to his demonic status) Habbalah could be until I tried one. Just like with any other character in any other RPG, the Gm has to maintain firm control over what characters are allowed into the game. "Sure you can play a Drow swashbuckler/combat mage, but you better have a good background." That one really happened in a AD&D campaign ran by a friend. ;'p > Hoping for the best, fearing the worst, > Mark (Who really *likes* IN's game mechanics...) Oops da Ogre, who mostly likes them, but humans seem rather incompetant mudgb4@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 13:55:59 -0400 From: johnk@ascc01.ascc.lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Live-Action On Sep 30, 8:21pm, Nathaniel Eliot wrote: > Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Live-Action > > Almost _no one_ has seen one beyond the old-timers. They > > faded from view about eight(?) years ago and are awfully hard to > > come by now. With the advances in electronics, they could probably > > be the size of a keychain now, but would they sell? (They were > > _awesome_ when dice were too inconvenient to use.) > > A easier solution is to take a baby food bottle and put some small > dice in it. Rattle it, then turn it so that the cap is down, so the > dice rest in the bottom. It works very well, from what I've seen (an > improvised Bab-5 LARP). Easier, but not cooler. I mean, really. An neat little electronic device or a _baby food bottle_? ;) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Oct 1997 13:23:14 -0500 From: tom timberlake Subject: Re: IN> Tilimok & Werewolves dwood@skipjack.bluecrab.org wrote: > TILIMOK, DEMON OF BEASTS [snip Reader's Digest version of Tilimok] > If anyone wants further write-up, please ask. I'm calling dibs on this > material. > Yes, please, I would like the unexpurgated, non-condensed version, please. tom timberlake aka Uncle Wolf tomtimb[at]ionet[dot]net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 12:57:16 -0500 (CDT) From: Donald G Bixler Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Live-Action > I still have 3 of them. I used them quite often to decide who got > to pick up the tab at the resteraunt (we were a weird group), the person > with the highest roll was permitted to pick up the tab for the table. (I > told you we were weird) Sheesh. They came out with those in what, the early-to-mid 80's? I remember seeing advertisments for them in old Dragons... > Shadowcat Oops da Ogre, never actually saw one outside of Dragon mudgb4@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Oct 1997 13:18:49 -0500 From: tom timberlake Subject: Re: IN> A thought - opinions wanted Donald G Bixler wrote: > > that there are some of us who -do- like WW and its products.<<< > > > Well, stick around, we'll cure you of your afflication. ;) > > That's it. One more shot at the Pale Puppy or something similar and I'm > chompin' off digits... > Image of a mid30s white male jumping up and down on, dressed in drag, chanting "go, Flash, go! go, Flash, go!" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Oct 1997 13:16:06 -0500 From: tom timberlake Subject: Re: IN> Jordi Kingsley Lintz wrote: > Personally, I tend to see Jordi as a bit more removed from > Celestial politics even than the book presents him. As far as the other > Archangels are concerned, he's nuts. As far as he's concerned, 98% of the > Powers that Be are busy fighting over about 2% of the planet's population, > and he gets the rest... (Considering that insects seem to fall under his > domain as well, he gets a hefty chunk there, all to himself. Even the > Bixlers' Beelzebub was concerned more with the animalistic aspects of > humans.) I think Jordi thinks they're at LEAST as nuts as they think he > is. [It's easy to think, "Sure, but humans can wipe out everything > anyway," until you remember that technically, Jordi holds the > roaches... {Though personally, I think they deserve a Demon Prince > quite in themselves.}] Anyone besides me thinking of the movies [late 60s or early 70s] "Ben" and "Willard"?, maybe [what was that movie's name?] "Food of the Gods"? Also, roaches aren't the only ones that Jordi holds the reins on....one plague of locusts in the American Midwest and another in Soviet Georgia and a fair chunk of the world's population is on short rations.... Couple them with an El Nino disruption of the SE Asian rice production and you can see that Jordi is the Third Apocalyptic Horseman, Famine, if he wants to be....Here's to hoping he stays on the fence toward Humanity. tom t., mandarin's butterfly to James, the Stone Malakim "I am James, I will help you" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 12:57:12 -0500 (CDT) From: Dorothy Bixler Subject: Re: IN> What's the Buzz? (was Re: IN> Tilimok & Werewolves) On Wed, 1 Oct 1997, Casca wrote: > On Wed, 1 Oct 1997, Donald G Bixler wrote: > > [snip very nice writeup] Thank you. We wrote the majority of it on a six hour road trip to see Donald's parents. > > > Allied: Saminga > > Associated: Beleth, Lilith > > I'm rather surprised not to see Baal or Belial here. The War can always > make use of agents provocateur, and Belial is into wanton destruction... > You know, I forget why Donald and I decided against those two... mind jogging my memory , Hun? IIRC- Baal was just too civil, and Belial and him tended to have ego conflicts. > The association with Lilith confused me, until I thought about it. The > Word of Freedom covers anarchy, too, and nature is the ultimate anarchy. > > > Hostile: Asmodeus, Haagenti, Malphas > > Enemy: Nybbas > > I dunno about that last one....how many 'animal attack' shows have there > been lately? Then there's _Cujo_..... > > One phrase- "couch potato". The whole bit about everyone in Abbadon sitting around and vegging out for eternity doesn't sit well with him. As far as the animal shows... can't a wolf eat in peace without a TV crew shoving a camera in her face? *Dorothy Michelle Bixler * mudmh10@ecom.ecn.bgu.edu* Who's about to be very late to Animal Physiology "Gidget, have you been laying with the Horned One again?" -MST3K's Mike from "The Thing the Couldn't Die" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 12:53:06 -0500 (CDT) From: Donald G Bixler Subject: Re: IN> What's the Buzz? (was Re: IN> Tilimok & Werewolves) > [snip very nice writeup] > > > Allied: Saminga > > Associated: Beleth, Lilith > > I'm rather surprised not to see Baal or Belial here. The War can always > make use of agents provocateur, and Belial is into wanton destruction... Well, Baal's too reserved and refined for Buzzy's tastes and Belial and Beelzebub have a longstanding enimity. (Two no-nonsense types who are a touch paranoid plus the critters vs. fire thing.) Please note that although Beelzebub tends to enjoy violence for its own sake, that is not the focus of his Word or his attention. He represents the feral spirit of a wild animal, not just violence. > The association with Lilith confused me, until I thought about it. The > Word of Freedom covers anarchy, too, and nature is the ultimate anarchy. Right. Mind you, Lilith is probably merely amused by this and doesn't return the feelings. > > Enemy: Nybbas > > I dunno about that last one....how many 'animal attack' shows have there > been lately? Then there's _Cujo_..... Yes, but for the most part, he wants to have everyone sitting at home watching the latest sitcom and chowing down on potato chips. Couch potatoes are disgusting to the active and physical Prince of Beasts. The animal attacks can be explained in a few ways. First, Nybbas doesn't rule all the TVs in the world. He's a major influence, but humans still do what they please for the most part. Two, a lot of those shows stress the evil of animals and actually put enough fear of the wild into people that they support programs to kill off the "dangerous beasts" before they get someone you love. Third, he may be practicing a bit of diplomacy* by distracting Beelzebub with pictures of his favorite critters chowing down. * As in "Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggy.' until you can find a big stick." > Just rambling. Very nice job. :) Thank you! > -- Casca > (bertishg@db.erau.edu) Oops da Ogre mudgb4@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 17:40:30 +0100 From: Sam Kington Subject: IN> Free will, heaven and hell I was following the discussion "Needing light for darkness", whether Hell existed before the Fall etc. and came up with the following theories (sorry if this turns into a ramble). I am assuming there was a period when humans did not have free will, before the expulsion from the Garden of Eden. Things will vary depending on how literal a reading you have of the Bible, but I don't think the core principles are affected. Before humans gained free will ============================== Before the expulsion from the Garden of Eden, Hell had no purpose. It may have existed already, but was empty, functionless. Similarly, angels were just Celestial mechanics, making sure the world kept on working; alternatively, they were the forerunners of humans, a first draft. The distinction between good and evil had not been discovered by humans, nor by angels, hence a Fall was impossible. The humans gain free will ========================= They gain a better understanding of the world, the knowledge of good and evil, and are sent out of the Garden of Eden (set free?). Quite possibly, the Tree of Knowledge was a test: whoever would eat of it first, human or angel, would become God's Favoured Race; the other one would have to serve them. Either way, evil became a possibility and Hell was created/unlocked to serve that purpose. Angels were told to serve humans, and either rebelled (out of vanity) or chose to serve in Hell (career move). Which means that angels may not have free will for most things, but *do* have free will as far as good vs. evil is concerned. So redemption and falling are still possible, but apart from that, your path is set, and you Do What You're Told. Of course, after giving humans free will, giving celestials partial free will, and setting up heaven and hell, God may have moved on to other things. And why would he devote particular attention to celestials anyway, after they failed his challenge? Maybe that's what Eli is doing on Earth: blending with the human population, learning their ways, trying to learn from his mistakes, asking God for forgiveness/a second chance. Maybe Eli wants to become human. Sam - -- There are *my* opinions, dammit, and let no-one say otherwise. Home page: http://www.illuminated.co.uk/ INWO Homebrew: http://www.illuminated.co.uk/cgi/illuminati The jaws that bite, the claws that catch ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Oct 1997 13:37:12 -0500 From: tom timberlake Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN A thought - opinions wanted Nathaniel Eliot wrote: > > Thomas also read at that time though posibly from a different book > > the discription of Uzuel as the Luitenent to the Sereph or AA > > Gabriel this showes there alience and places Gabriel as not only > > the angel of death but as a sereph not an Ofanite this has been a > > sticking point in our campaign from the start as Micheal has > > always traditionaly been asosiated with fire and Gabriel with > > water. > > What tradition are you coming from, for this? I'd appreciate > references (esp online ones)... > Back during the "AA of Water" thread, I mentioned this. My reference was Amber Wolfe's "In the Shadow of the Shaman", published by Llewellyn [sp?]. She is, or at least claims to be, a Wiccan who has studied under various Native Americans and fused their teachings with her "own" into an Aquarian Shamanism [her name--it could just as easily be called Aquarian Wiccanism, probably]. This was also the first time Uriel was mentioned where it made an impression on me, reminds me very much of IN's Yves. What Ms. Wolfe's sources were and whether any of them are online is unknown to me. tom timberlake Christmas tree Christian--the core [pine tree] is Christian, but check out the tinsel and ornaments--definitely _not_ learned in Sunday School! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 14:50:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Casca Subject: Re: Re: IN> White Wolf's Games vs. In Nomine On Wed, 1 Oct 1997 MarkDEddy@aol.com wrote: > This past year, in one of Seattle's suburbs, a family was killed by a badly > disturbed pair of young men who had been hanging out with World of Darkness > LARPers. I'm not talking about an "on the whole" situation, I'm talking > about one or two bad fruit ruining the game for a whole lot of people. I fail to see how this is the fault of the game. RPGs have attracted their share of twits and morons, just like ever other hobby in the world. The idiots just happen to get more press coverage because the public, as a whole, still finds role-playing rather subversive and outre'. We fear what we do not udnerstand, and all that. I recall a furor in the early 80s about how Dungeons & Dragons was satanic because it encouraged kids to engage in human sacrifice and worship dark gods in exchange for power and magic. All this was because of a few morons who couldn't separate reality from fantasy, not because of game mechanics, setting or attitude on the part of game designers. If you don't like White Wolf games, fine. But hating them because of the folks who play their games is silly....that's a case of hating the gamers, not the games themselves. > I would think so, but my concern is still the disturbed individuals who cause > problems, not the hard-core roleplayers who like the chalenge. Simple solution: don't play with folks who bother you. - -- Casca (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 14:55:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> What's the Buzz? (was Re: IN> Tilimok & Werewolves) On Wed, 1 Oct 1997, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > Um. Lots of animals live in very orderly societies. Even non-social > organisms form parts of ecologies that exhibit lawful behavior. To my mind, there is a difference between order and law. 'Order' means 'Things run more smoothly when done this way.' 'Law' means 'You're doing it this way because I say so.' It's quite possible to have disorderly laws and lawful disorder.... > Any organism is an intricate and orchestrated mechanism. And, below > the level of the organism, matter runs according to natural law. > Granted, this is stretching the meaning of "law" some, but likewise > is it stretching "anarchy" to include nature's chaotic elements. Anarchy is me doing what I want, when I want. If that's not complete and utter freedom, what is? Animals do what they want, when they want, unless a stronger animal says otherwise. Anarchy can be both peaceful and violent...I see Lilith supporting both. - -- Casca (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 15:08:02 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Live-Action > > A easier solution is to take a baby food bottle and put some small > > dice in it. Rattle it, then turn it so that the cap is down, so the > > dice rest in the bottom. It works very well, from what I've seen (an > > improvised Bab-5 LARP). > > Easier, but not cooler. I mean, really. An neat little > electronic device or a _baby food bottle_? ;) Or something the same size. You can strip off the label, as well - it just has to be small enough to fit in a pocket. Plus, from what I've seen the Dragonbones didn't have much going for them on looks... Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com "What was that popping sound?" "A paradigm shifting without a clutch." - Dilbert ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 15:11:09 -0400 (EDT) From: "Emily K. Dresner" Subject: Re: IN> Lilim and Malakim (fwd) > Em noted; > > I started with a few presumptions - WHICH MAY BE WRONG - that I worked > Nonsense. Well, I felt that if I was going off into no man's land, that I should put on a warning label. > > considered Divine. "But Lilim are greedy little love buckets! They > > start in Hell!" you say. Well, I keep the following in mind: > Well..."greedy little love bucket" sounds divine to ME, but... Lilim - Cute, Cuddly, Affectionate, and will trade all that to you in exchange for your kneecaps. You GOTTA love 'em! > > > So what if.... Lilim are actually divine beings who live out their lives > > in Hell, like the Malakim being infernal living out their lives in heaven? > Oooh..symmetry! Yep. My little engineering brain demands that the universe has order, even when it doesn't. > It does offer the interesting possibility that > such a balance is NECESSARY, for Symphonic purposes. That, in effect, > Lilith didn't leave in rebellion from God...she left because God asked her > to, so that there would be the `divine' counterbalance in Hell allowing > him to hold the Malakim in Heaven...{Alternatively, of course, she may > have rebelled against God, but it was all set up by God without her > knowledge anyway.} The only problem I see here is continuity on a global scale. Now, did God create Adam + Lilith then the Rebellion, or did God put up his Project Scope, Mission Statement and Resource Analysis before actually doing any work (I suddenly imagine God as a pointy-haired Boss type) then they Rebelled, THEN God made Adam, Lilith and Eve? That's my only real question, and maybe I'm just generally ignorant on this point. I ask because - 1. If she left before, then it's assumed that God knew that he would need a balance in the universe, and thus asked. This is entirely possible that God knew, because he can see forwards and backwards, but then Lilith could create no Lilim until after the Fall, because there was no Hell for which to require an opposite - also possible, 2. If she left afterwards, and Lilim counterweight Malakim, Malakim did not exist as a Choir until after the Fall, which means Uriel and/or Laurence did not exist until then as well. Either way, it's a snag. But I'm tempted to throw up my hands and yell, "Oh, the hell with it." For me, All that is important is the fact that Lilith Rebelled on her own. I feel this makes her important in her own way. She didn't go with the crowd, or follow some charimatic dude with a nice smile and shiny shoes. She walked away with the chance that she was going to lose Everything. It makes Lilith the ultimate Renegade/Outcast. :) > [MaBarry wants to point out that when Lucifer rebelled, he changed. When > Lilith rebelled, given that her purpose had been to bear children for > Adam, maybe she changed as well, such that all her children are Lilim..] Interesting point. > > > Very bad Lilim. Very bad Lilim are likely to be consumed by > > Discord like any other angel Falling, from the whiplash of > > too harsh failed Geasa, to themselves and others. "Kill your > > wife," has a possibility of failing... > That's a good point...I know we've already had the debate here on > whether the Lilim Resonance tends to the evil or not, but I don't remember > anyone pointing out that the evil uses are the more likely to be > resisted... Thanks. I didn't know if anyone had taken the time to point this out. > > So where do the Malakim come from? I don't know. Maybe Lilith plays both > > sides of the fence. It would permenantly solidify her power base - in > > Heaven and in Hell. > Who, LILITH? Er... I thought it would be humorous if the Choir of Vengence came from Lilith. Ha ha. Funny to everyone but the Malakim PC. > MaBarry just suggested `Eli', which is a fun thought...(though > personally, I'm leaning towards Laurence. Partly because they both start > with `L', but mostly because if there's going to be a single `source' of > Malakim as there is for Lilim, it'd be him. Though I gather they've since > noted the Malakim as originating with Uriel, so perhaps Lilith had to fake > a recall for some reason...which has the interesting corollary that Heaven > would no longer be being supplied with MORE Malakim, and might start > running out as they get soul-killed. At which point my natural thought is > to do a Mystic/Skeksis connection between the two and have a Lilim go > every time a Malakim dies...) > I like the suggestion of Eli. I dunno why. Maybe because, ever since my favorite Lilim commented that her greatest fantasy is Laurence wearing, uh, nothing, I've had a hard time taking him really seriously. :) Either that, or that I think an Angel that can use a soggy lo mein noodle as a deadly weapon has GOT to be someone I want to hang out with. "Watch Out! He's got a roll of Charmin! AND HE'S SQUEEZING!!!" Seriously, Uriel or Eli are good suggestions. I think Laurence is too much of a kid to really be able to churn out an entire major choir by himself. Although the Malakim/Lilim connection is pretty nasty. I like. :) - - Just Em ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #372 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.