From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Oct 2 01:50:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA28275 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 01:50:01 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id BAA08788 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 01:38:53 -0500 Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 01:38:53 -0500 Message-Id: <199710020638.BAA08788@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #374 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, October 2 1997 Volume 01 : Number 374 In this digest: Re: IN> RE:just a thought Re: IN> In Nomine Live-Action Re: IN> RE:just a thought Re: IN> White Wolf's Games vs. In Nomine Re: IN> What's the Buzz? (was Re: IN> Tilimok & Werewolves) IN> Re: IN White Wolf's Games vs. In Nomine Re: IN> White Wolf's Games vs. In Nomine IN> Re: music IN>Chainmail fluff Re: IN>Chainmail fluff Jordi (was: Re: IN> Baltimore) IN> WW vs. INO and Playing Demons Re: IN> White Wolf's Games vs. In Nomine Re: IN> LARPS - resolving actions Re: IN> WW vs. INO and Playing Demons ATTN- Re: IN> WW vs. INO and Playing Games Re: IN> Multitasking Superiors Re: Jordi (was: Re: IN> Baltimore) Re: IN> On playing demons Re: IN> Boo Berries (fluffathon) Re: Jordi (was: Re: IN> Baltimore) Re: IN> Lilim and Malakim (fwd) Re: IN> LARPS - resolving actions Re: IN> Las Vegas and Archangels (was Chicago and Lilith and Marc) Re: IN> Casca's Conversion - part 2 Re: Re: IN> White Wolf's Games vs. In Nomine RE: White Wolf stuff (Re: IN> A thought - opinions wanted) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 01 Oct 97 18:16 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> RE:just a thought >Sorry I was not more clear the tradition is Judism the sorce and again I >'m at work an unable to find the author or publisher was the Kabalistic >Encyclopedia > >Gabriel = water >Micheal=fire >Rapheal= air >Uriel = stone I believe this is the same set Katherine Kurtz (I hope she's the right author) used in her Deryni novels. Probably got them from the same source. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Oct 97 18:11 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Live-Action >>>> I just can't wait to meet the Lilim players... :-) >>>> Andre >>> >>> I'm sure they'd dress appropriately, most dread Prince Andre. >>> >>>(Hey, another reason to wander around in the spandex and leather...) >> >> YES, PLEASE. I would pay to see this... > >Hey, Karakash, think we should tell SJ to do up the Archangel of >Archives postcard set? Think it'd sell? Maybe you should pose for the Lilith illustration when she gets her expanded Superior write-up.... (Hmmm... there *isn't* a Lilith picture in the basic IN book, is there? If I were her, I'd be annoyed that I was the only Superior who didn't get one....) - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 18:22:47 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> RE:just a thought > > What tradition are you coming from, for this? I'd appreciate > > references (esp online ones)... > > > > Sorry I was not more clear the tradition is Judism the sorce and again I > 'm at work an unable to find the author or publisher was the Kabalistic > Encyclopedia That's okay - I just wanted an idea of where it came from more than anything. Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com "What was that popping sound?" "A paradigm shifting without a clutch." - Dilbert ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 15:38:12 -0700 (PDT) From: lugaid@seanet.com Subject: Re: IN> White Wolf's Games vs. In Nomine On 1997-10-01 in_nomine-l@lists.io.com said to lugaid@seanet.com >I hate to say this, but what annoys *me* most about the World of >Darkness{tm} is neither the system nor the background, but some of >the players. These are the "isn't it cool to be evil" types that >make me wish I were a Malakim of Michael and could smite them with >a Bloody Great Axe {tm}. is it just me, or is there irony to be found in this second sentence? >But this is where my concerns for In Nomine >come in. With the potential to have Demons as PC's, these same >"I'm more evil than you are" types could overrun any GM's plans in >a LARP or tabletop game. umm... so you write the scenario to take into account the demon players (or the Malakim players, who tend to be much the same)... heck, the game is *designed* for demonic pcs, as well as angelic... Slan agus Beannachtai, Lugaid MacRobert MELODY - an ancient and now extinct art in songwriting. Net-Tamer V 1.08X - Test Drive ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 17:39:08 -0500 (CDT) From: Donald G Bixler Subject: Re: IN> What's the Buzz? (was Re: IN> Tilimok & Werewolves) > Hmm...makes sense, I suppose, though Belial should be added to the > 'Hostile' list if this is the case. Hmm... I think I need to sit down and decide why we decided not to make him hostile. > I get the feeling Lilith is amused by a great many things... I'm sure. She's a pretty fun lady, even if I do get tired of some of her kids. > Why is Haagenti considered Hostile? I'd think that their words would have > little to do with each other... You know, I don;t realy remember. I'll have to go ask Dotti. > > > > Thank you! > > > > ??? Afraid I don't get it. I was afraid of that. It's a Mystery Science Theatre 3000 reference. Nothing important, though. > -- Casca > (bertishg@db.erau.edu) Oops da Ogre mudgb4@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 15:38:20 -0700 (PDT) From: lugaid@seanet.com Subject: IN> Re: IN White Wolf's Games vs. In Nomine On 1997-10-01 in_nomine-l@lists.io.com said to lugaid@seanet.com >This past year, in one of Seattle's >suburbs, a family was killed by a badly disturbed pair of young men >who had been hanging out with World of Darkness LARPers. I'm not >talking about an "on the whole" situation, I'm talking about one or >two bad fruit ruining the game for a whole lot of people. what you have failed to note here, Mark, is that those two were kicked out of every larp and tabletop group they tried to join... they didn't ruin anyone's game, as they weren't around long enough... the fact that they are murderers has nothing at all to do with their aspirations to be gamers... >>Assuming the GM allows demonic PCs, he/she'll probably have plots >>in place for them, yes? Kind of like allowing Sabbat into MET. >I would think so, but my concern is still the disturbed individuals >who cause problems, not the hard-core roleplayers who like the >chalenge. thing is, i don't think that there is any problem that doesn't get fixed by the ages-old technique of ostracization... disturbed individuals there may be, but they really aren't that big of a problem... Slan agus Beannachtai, Lugaid MacRobert What'm I doin? Uh, just stirring the kettle, Miz Cerridwen... Net-Tamer V 1.08X - Test Drive ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 18:58:47 -0400 From: Colin Fredericks Subject: Re: IN> White Wolf's Games vs. In Nomine >> I hate to say this, but what annoys *me* most about the World of >>Darkness{tm} >> is neither the system nor the background, but some of the players. >>These are >> the "isn't it cool to be evil" types that make me wish I were a Malakim of >> Michael and could smite them with a Bloody Great Axe {tm}. > >In Nomine seems to be directly targeted at such people. I mean, why else >play a demon unless you think it would be fun to play someone evil? Ah yes, but it's the difference in the way you said it. It's the difference between "cool to play someone evil" and "cool to be evil." The difference between playing a character and acting out stuff you wish you could do and get away with (or live with yourself for, in most cases). - -Sir Colin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 19:47:57 -0500 From: rbeall@fdldotnet.com (Grim88) Subject: IN> Re: music If your looking for something to fit those Demonic games to a tee, pick up something by Elend. Sure, if you live in the states, you'll have to import them, but there cd, Les Tenebres du Dehors truly fits right into any Demons cd player. Classical/Opera with a whole lotta screaming..and i mean screaming. "The Luciferian Revelution" springs right to mind. Their first cd, it's name escapes me presently, is based on Paradise lost Here for more info: http://www.stack.nl/~bobw/music/artists/Elend/ i got my copy from www.blackmetal.com Grim88, playing one of THE WORST character templates out there...Redeemed Shed in serve to Eli, loaned to Jordi claiming to worship an Egytptian god. Campaign has started yet, but i know he's gonna have trouble with the local Triad. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Oct 1997 19:48:00 GMT From: marcus.evenstar@greymatter.com (Marcus Evenstar) Subject: IN>Chainmail fluff On 30SEP97, Sir Colin wrote: SC> And I quote, from of all sources, HOL: "...we here at Dirtmerchant SC> feel no need to promote the all-too-popular 'Armor? (giggle giggle) No, SC> this chainmail teddy and leather G-string will protect me *fine*.' SC> image of women in RPG's." SC> Shirtless + chainmail = no skin left on chest (ouch). :).... This reminds me of the scene in Cerebus #10 where Red Sophia is trying to convince the Earth-Pig to ambush a merchant's caravan and betray her current (ineffectual) companion. Smearing his fur with saliva didn't work and he wasn't impressed with the loot potential: Red Sophia: "Maybe I should try something less _subtle_." Cerebus: "Hmmm. Split two ways that's enough for a few month's of comfortable living..." RS: "Enough _talk_, you short grey celibate! What do you think of..." "THESE?!" C: "They'd _probably_ heal if you stopped wearing that chain-mail bikini..." ObIn-Nomine: Cerebus is a noted Weirdness Magnet (just consider all the jobs he's been through!) but he is also a major magical focus. He's been used to further the plans of magicians, politicians and priests. He can be exploited by any given faction, as long as he has enough potatoes and whiskey. So what is he? A Saint? An Avatar? A Lost Soul? An Unfortunate Bastard Who Can Be Exploited? ======================================================================= | GAT3.1 d- s+:++ a+ C++ U? LU? E? W- N++ o? K++ w+ O? M V? PS+++ PE- | | Y+ PGP- t+ 5+++ X+ R+++ tv b+++ DI++ D G++ e+ h--- r+++ y++(**) | - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- | "Do not disrupt my carefully controlled pattern of hype or | | YOU WILL BE PUT IN A BOX WITH BILL GATES AND SHAKEN." | | - James "Kibo" Parry (kibo@world.std.com) | - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- | marcus dot evenstar at greymatter dot com | ======================================================================= * RM 1.3 02440 * An accommodating vice is better than an obstinate virtue. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 21:18:21 -0400 (EDT) From: "Benjamin D. Hutchins" Subject: Re: IN>Chainmail fluff > ObIn-Nomine: Cerebus is a noted Weirdness Magnet (just consider all the > jobs he's been through!) but he is also a major magical focus. He's been > used to further the plans of magicians, politicians and priests. He can be > exploited by any given faction, as long as he has enough potatoes and > whiskey. So what is he? A Saint? An Avatar? A Lost Soul? An Unfortunate > Bastard Who Can Be Exploited? An aardvark. - --G. - -- Benjamin D. Hutchins, cofounder and Keeper-Straight of the Continuity Eyrie Productions, Unlimited - An AnimeTech Limited Company -><- Visit us on the World Wide Web at http://www.eyrie.net/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Oct 1997 02:41:12 +0100 From: Sam Kington Subject: Jordi (was: Re: IN> Baltimore) Redneck Gaijin wrote: [snip] > He's virtually alone in his belief that humans at > -best- are a relatively unimportant aspect of the Symphony, and at worst are > a disease in need of a cure. Does anyone see parallels with Gabriel (The Prophecy version)? Both seem to have a pretty similar disdain for humans, albeit for different reasons. How close is Jordi to falling, anyway? What if pollution, global warming, destruction of native habitats etc. is actually being encouraged by Hell to make him trip? Sam - -- There are *my* opinions, dammit, and let no-one say otherwise. Home page: http://www.illuminated.co.uk/ INWO Homebrew: http://www.illuminated.co.uk/cgi/illuminati Keep your old love letters. Throw away your old bank statements. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 22:29:36 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> WW vs. INO and Playing Demons Well, gee Donald, here I was gonna back off the whole "WW vs. In Nomine" thing after you threatened my digits with digital harm, but you kinda blew your credibility by jumping in yourself. ;) >>We are, after all, talking about a game, where if everyone's having a good time, who are we to criticize them?<<< I would never try to restrict anyone's freedom to roleplay however they want. There was supposedly an infamous (possibly apocryphal) Champions game at a GenCon a few years ago where the participants played supervillains and earned points by going on a rape spree. Sick and twisted. I'd want nothing to do with people who'd play a game like that. But if that's what they think is fun, there's no law against it. I do reserve the right to CRITICIZE such behavior however, or a game that encourages such anti-social attitudes. Now, Champions doesn't-- these guys (if the event actually happened as it was reported to me) were just plain demented. But White Wolf practically wallows in amorality. Oh sure, they make a big thing out of trying to restrain the Beast, protect humans, yadda yadda yadda, and what books are the best-sellers? The ones that lovingly detail how you can play a Sabbat campaign, or be a Settite or Giovanni or Ghoul, etc. They started Black Dog specifically to pander to that segment of the market. ("Black Dog books will be Art", they pompously declared, capitalization included. Sure, about as artistic as a train wreck.) I hope I don't need to say this, but I suspect I do: no, I don't think all (or even most) WW players/fans are amoral vampire-wannabes. Heck, I *have* played WW games on occasion. But there is a self-righteous snootiness to WW that is particularly grating when you consider that what they are holding up as "moral" is basically a total lack of morality. "Killing people is cool. Drinking blood is cool. Look at those hooters. Hunh hunh. Hunh hunh. I wish I was a vampire, Beavis." Pretentious, amoral and poorly-written. And that's without even getting into game mechanics. Even with all that, WW wouldn't bug me so much. But the self-righteous indignation of its adherents, who take their World of Darkness so dang *seriously* (we've seen some of it on this list: "How dare you criticize my favorite game!?") really irritates me. It's a game, it's not a way of life. And assorted deities help us if anyone really thinks the World of Darkness would be "cool" as a reality (and I fear there are a fair number who do). Now, to make this relevant to In Nomine: We face something of a dilemma with the fact that demons can be very, very nasty, and they can be player characters, don't we? I do not favor banning demons as PCs (in fact, in my online campaign, several players are playing demons). However, it would distress me a bit if SJG decided to start putting out a lot of support for all-demon campaigns. There is an Infernal Players Guide coming out-- and I wrote some of it. I see it as clarifying the whole aspect of the War from the infernal viewpoint, and mostly giving the GM material to make diabolical NPCs more interesting. Yes, it's also useful for demonic PCs, but I *hope* it is not going to encourage the mindset that "demons are cooler than angels". More importantly, as someone pointed out earlier, in In Nomine, sometimes the DEMONS are nicer than the angels. To me, playing a demon who is struggling with what he sees as a fight to liberate the Symphony from a divine dictator, and keep a bunch of semi-sentient monkeys from being elevated above clearly superior beings, is interesting. Playing a Shedite who goes around seeing how many lives he can destroy and has no inner struggles more sophisticated than "What can I make this guy do now that's worse than what I made him do yesterday?" is not interesting. And someone who thinks that's *cool* is someone whom I would probably not want to game with. (Okay, I can see the merit in an occasional "vent your frustrations with Real Life by playing a twisted SOB and cutting loose" session. But to do that regularly-- as I see a lot of WW players doing-- strikes me as sad and a little scary.) Demons make fun PCs in heavily political games, and in games where there is a lot of moral turmoil (I hesitate to use the "a" word). But an all-demon game that just consisted of "Let's screw with humans and try to bag some angels" would be pretty pathetic, and I for one aspire to make In Nomine better than that. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 22:46:17 -0400 (EDT) From: CptOlympus@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> White Wolf's Games vs. In Nomine In a message dated 97-10-01 12:31:04 EDT, MarkDEddy@aol.com wrote: > Hoping for the best, fearing the worst, Wow! A precognative genius! Don't worry, I side with you on this. As an IN GM, I have trouble with letting my group take demons as PCs. It is clear that demons as portrayed in the game are the very incarnations of evil and selfishness. So before anyone even had their heart sent on playing a diabolical, I made it very clear that I would be running this game from the angelic point of view. Am I a prude? Am I lacking in ideas for demonic scenarios and plot seeds? Hardly. I think the reason I enjoy roleplaying games is that I get to be the hero (or when I GM, I get to write those adventures). I can't imagine wanting to encourage things like child pornography, callous murder, and watching Barney (which if you're running demons true to their form, you will encounter such things). The Holocaust was a horrible event in human history, I don't really want a player with a Shedite of Fire getting all misty about the "good ole days." Sure there are other ways to play it. You can emulate Piers Anthony's Incarnations of Immortality (For Love of Evil comes to mind), and play your demons tongue in cheek. Roleplaying re-deemons (chuckle) is another way to go, but for the truly devoted diabolical player, that's not gonna be satisfying (after all, they just end up becoming wussy angels if they "win"). I do disagree with Mark's assessment of White Wolf's players. Most people I know who play WoD games enjoy the intense personal conflict playing such characters encourages. All of the game systems, no matter how dark the subject matter, are designed with the PCs trying to make things better for their world and, as luck would have it, the rest of the world as well. Demonic characters, taken as written, work to make the world a drekky pit of despair and hoplessness. How do you reward good roleplaying in this instance? "You've killed the bishop and raped his niece, forcing her to embrace her Fate fully. Good job. Have some cake and 3 CPs." So as you may have guessed, I am not pro-diabolical roleplaying. I think people who enjoy it just like to play the heavy, because the bad guy gets all the best lines and gets to break the rules. The challenge to me, is not to break the rules, but to work within them. Success is a lot more satisfying when you've had to take the hard way. Oh yikes. I sound like Ward Cleaver. Time to git while the gittin's good. S.A. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 23:12:11 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> LARPS - resolving actions > > Plus, it doesn't take up too much time... win, lose or tie, you know > > pretty much straight away. > > Yeah, I think I'll stick to that... Specially after Nathaniel's 32 > finger positions tip!! Not to be taken out of context, I'd like to point out that I was just being facetious when I said that. Have you ever tried to raise just your ring finger, without using any other fingers? The other idea I proposed is a variant of odd's even's. The first person calls odds or evens, and the two both extend a certain number of fingers. The hand is counted as a sixth finger, for the purposes of preserving the d666 feel. If first person wins the call, the "roll" succeeds if their skill is greater than the total, with a CD (succeed or fail) equal to their opponent's number. If they loose the call, the "roll" succeeds if their skill is greater than ten minus the total, with a CD equal to seven minus their opponent's number. This needs to be done twice for opposed tests. Divine intervention is on a sucessful call if both are closed (1), or on a failed call if both are open (6). Infernal is the other way around. Why the complexity? Two reasons - one, it gives the a better range of possibilities than rock-paper-scissors. Two, I have found it is fairly easy to outguess somebody on a rock-paper-scissors test, if they don't know how - most people think one step ahead if they get the same thing as the other person. To beat them, take the choice that would have failed originally... > Prince Andre (now thinking in some *other* finger > positions... Which can also be done at LARPS, if one is discrete... Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com "What was that popping sound?" "A paradigm shifting without a clutch." - Dilbert ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 22:18:32 -0500 (CDT) From: Donald G Bixler Subject: Re: IN> WW vs. INO and Playing Demons > Well, gee Donald, here I was gonna back off the whole "WW vs. In Nomine" > thing after you threatened my digits with digital harm, but you kinda blew > your credibility by jumping in yourself. ;) Well, I was interested in just what it was he meant, since it wasn't quite clear to me. If that makes me a hypocrite, c'est la vie. > Now, to make this relevant to In Nomine: We face something of a dilemma > with the fact that demons can be very, very nasty, and they can be player > characters, don't we? I do not favor banning demons as PCs (in fact, in my > online campaign, several players are playing demons). However, it would > distress me a bit if SJG decided to start putting out a lot of support for > all-demon campaigns. There is an Infernal Players Guide coming out-- and I > wrote some of it. I see it as clarifying the whole aspect of the War from > the infernal viewpoint, and mostly giving the GM material to make > diabolical NPCs more interesting. Yes, it's also useful for demonic PCs, > but I *hope* it is not going to encourage the mindset that "demons are > cooler than angels". More importantly, as someone pointed out earlier, in > In Nomine, sometimes the DEMONS are nicer than the angels. To me, playing a > demon who is struggling with what he sees as a fight to liberate the > Symphony from a divine dictator, and keep a bunch of semi-sentient monkeys > from being elevated above clearly superior beings, is interesting. Playing > a Shedite who goes around seeing how many lives he can destroy and has no > inner struggles more sophisticated than "What can I make this guy do now > that's worse than what I made him do yesterday?" is not interesting. And > someone who thinks that's *cool* is someone whom I would probably not want > to game with. (Okay, I can see the merit in an occasional "vent your > frustrations with Real Life by playing a twisted SOB and cutting loose" > session. But to do that regularly-- as I see a lot of WW players doing-- > strikes me as sad and a little scary.) That is why I in part responded to the other post. I was curious as to whether the poster was disturbed by the thoughts of being "evil", or whether it was the people who were ODing on the "I'm EEEVIL so I'm cool." > Demons make fun PCs in heavily political games, and in games where there is > a lot of moral turmoil (I hesitate to use the "a" word). But an all-demon Aardvark? Airhorn? Antidisestablishmentarianism? > game that just consisted of "Let's screw with humans and try to bag some > angels" would be pretty pathetic, and I for one aspire to make In Nomine > better than that. So do I. I was just wondering which he was meaning. If he didn't like the idea of being "evil", it would be more conducive to an interesting discu > -David > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 22:22:07 -0500 (CDT) From: Donald G Bixler Subject: ATTN- Re: IN> WW vs. INO and Playing Games @#^$%@&^%! (See Dave? No four letter words.) I didn't mean to send that. I was still working on the message when the connection started acting up. Please ignore the response to Mr. Edelstein's post; I'll be sending my real response sometime later. Donald G. Bixler, not having a good day mudgb4@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 23:39:51 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> Multitasking Superiors > >P.S.: Writing this, I found myself wondering... Is there some > >Celestial who set the Superiors agenda?? Like a secretary of > >sorts? He should be Word-bound, dontcha think? 'Sondra, Lilim of > >Lust, the Demon of Andre's Agenda'... Hmmm... > > Hm. Sorry. I had to include this. Piece from one of my Caliah > stories: she's running messages round Hell to the Princes, and has > come across a Lilim who is unhappy in her job... (Caliah's a > low-ranking Habbalite of Baal, to explain a bit) Just want to point out that the entire story, and in fact most of the stories on your page, are really just kick ass. The imagery in that story alone has given me a new way of looking at the Ethereal and Celestial planes and forms in my game... Check it out: http://www.tcp.co.uk/~maya/nomine/ Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com "What was that popping sound?" "A paradigm shifting without a clutch." - Dilbert ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 23:35:34 -0500 (CDT) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: Jordi (was: Re: IN> Baltimore) >reasons. How close is Jordi to falling, anyway? What if pollution, >global warming, destruction of native habitats etc. is actually being >encouraged by Hell to make him trip? Lucifer has tried, but Jordi is loyal above all to the Almighty. He just has a very unusual take on what he elieves the Almighty's Plan is. Redneck Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | Marc sponsored the first http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | Chinese buffet restraunt; c/o White Lightning Productions | it was Haagenti who came http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | up with MSG. Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- Celestial folklore http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 22:52:39 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> On playing demons > How do y'all deal well with playing demons? I've considered it, but > looking at each option, I just don't like them. More to the point, I just > don't want to spend my free time pretending to screw people over left and > right. Obviously, I don't have to (and I'd also have to be /playing/ IN to Honestly, I have to say, this doesn't immediately strike me as a "demonic", or even "evil", problem. Playing demons who just go around mucking up humans would get boring fast...but so would playing angels who just go around helping old ladies across the street and offering games of chess to lonely looking guys at the park. The `base' In Nomine adventure concept seems to be for a group of Angelic players to be given a Demonic plot to foil. The idea of giving Demonic players an Angelic plot to foil seems to strike people all backwards, which doesn't make any sense to me at all...who SAYS the good guys can't make plans? All the `culture' around it seems to operate on that presumption, however...what Good generally does is sit around waiting for Evil to get moving, and then Good gets in its way. I don't buy it. My own attraction to demons is just that I see a LOT more potential for moral quandary with them. Angels, on the whole, KNOW they're on the right side. (Whatever the GM may have planned about the subject...) Demons, on the other hand, have to operate under the weight of the assumption that they're NOT...[It's HARD to rebel against someone strongly rumored to be omnipotent.] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 22:57:38 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> Boo Berries (fluffathon) > (Now, if all the photos of me at GenCon hadn't come out making > me look forshortened and *fat*, I'd put some on my pages. O:< ) Aww, go for it. It'll give me the impetus to upgrade from Lynx... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 23:22:18 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: Jordi (was: Re: IN> Baltimore) > >reasons. How close is Jordi to falling, anyway? What if pollution, > Lucifer has tried, but Jordi is loyal above all to the Almighty. He just has > a very unusual take on what he elieves the Almighty's Plan is. Just for amusements sake, I was toying briefly at work today with the idea that Malphas is actually just part of Jordi... {Well, look at it this way...Jordi -CAN- be in multiple places at once. In fact, he probably has been for so long that no one really has the faintest idea how big he is these days...HE may not be keeping track anymore. To maintain a `Shedim' as part of himself, all he'd have to do is remember not to do THAT one in more than one place at a time. And what does Malphas spend his time doing? Sowing dissent among the two major groups Jordi really doesn't like - Demons and humans.} [No, this ISN'T another, "x is really a demon" thread. This is "x is really an angel", which is ENTIRELY different. Really.] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 23:18:55 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> Lilim and Malakim (fwd) > > Em noted; > > > I started with a few presumptions - WHICH MAY BE WRONG - that I worked > > Nonsense. > Well, I felt that if I was going off into no man's land, that I should put > on a warning label. Oh, yes..good point. "Please, all, do NOT stick Dark Malakim in your eye. If you HAPPEN to get a Dark Malakim in your eye, flush immediately with water and call a psychiatrist." There we go. > > Well..."greedy little love bucket" sounds divine to ME, but... > Lilim - Cute, Cuddly, Affectionate, and will trade all that to you in > exchange for your kneecaps. You GOTTA love 'em! Hmm...kneecaps...night of wanton pleasure...kneecaps...night of wanton pleasure...ergh... {Y'know, Andre really needs Knight of Wanton Pleasure as a Distinction.} > > > So what if.... Lilim are actually divine beings who live out their lives > > > in Hell, like the Malakim being infernal living out their lives in heaven? > > Oooh..symmetry! > Yep. My little engineering brain demands that the universe has order, > even when it doesn't. I bet you run into that a lot. ('Course, as a devout Mortijinglist, I firmly believe that the universe exists for the sole reason that it's so darned unlikely, but..) Though it has, I believe, been shown that symmetry is a significant factor in many species' mating preferences... > > Lilith didn't leave in rebellion from God...she left because God asked her > > to, so that there would be the `divine' counterbalance in Hell allowing > > him to hold the Malakim in Heaven...{Alternatively, of course, she may > > have rebelled against God, but it was all set up by God without her > > knowledge anyway.} > The only problem I see here is continuity on a global scale. Now, did God > create Adam + Lilith then the Rebellion, or did God put up his Project Hmm...I think we may have to hope someone more knowledgeable in the area is paying attention to us can clarify this; MY understanding was that Lilith split and went her own way, and that her children were noted from then on as being `monstrosities', whatever she mated with (and I gather she tried out a number of possibilities.) MaBarry suggests the Fall would logically have been before this, happening soon after Adam's initial creation, which would provide for an evil Lucifer to be around for her to hook up with. {Which, now that I think about it, would fit, since the Fall has to have happened before Lucifer offered that apple to Eve and bolluxed the whole Garden gig...though, just from a GMs standpoint, I could see that he might have done that BEFORE the Fall, to show the other Angels that these humans really AREN'T so great, thereby rallying that third of the Host that he ended up with..} > 2. If she left afterwards, and Lilim counterweight Malakim, Malakim did > not exist as a Choir until after the Fall, which means Uriel and/or > Laurence did not exist until then as well. I don't know...it's plausible, I think, that they didn't actually both have to BE there; just the potential. (F'rinstance, there were obviously Seraphim before Balseraphs without upsetting the grand balance of things...but, for every Seraphim, there was the POTENTIAL of a Balseraph. Malakim and Lilim just take a slightly less direct route for it.) > For me, All that is important is the fact that Lilith Rebelled on her own. > I feel this makes her important in her own way. She didn't go with the > crowd, or follow some charimatic dude with a nice smile and shiny shoes. Aye...the same reason I'm rather adamant on the point that she's NOT Celestial and NOT human; Lilith's something unique. Kind of like Yves, in a way...hm... > I thought it would be humorous if the Choir of Vengence came from Lilith. > Ha ha. Funny to everyone but the Malakim PC. I KNEW you were really working for Kobal... ('Course, I'm also pretty sure you work for Kronos, Andrealphus, Lilith herself, and quite possibly Malphas...) > > MaBarry just suggested `Eli', which is a fun thought...(though > > personally, I'm leaning towards Laurence. Partly because they both start > I like the suggestion of Eli. I dunno why. Maybe because, ever since my > favorite Lilim commented that her greatest fantasy is Laurence wearing, > uh, nothing, I've had a hard time taking him really seriously. :) I dunno...I picture him in a purple lace teddy, actually. > Seriously, Uriel or Eli are good suggestions. I think Laurence is too > much of a kid to really be able to churn out an entire major choir by > himself. Although the Malakim/Lilim connection is pretty nasty. I like. Ah-ha...that's what (s)he'd LIKE you to think, isn't it? {"Gosh, Dominic, *I* couldn't be behind something like that..I'm too new around here, plus I always take your side, huh?"} ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 23:27:32 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> LARPS - resolving actions > Benjamin D. Hutchins wrote: > > First LARP ever? Noooo. First one published commercially by a major > > game studio, possibly > Gee, I didn't know... It was the firs one to arrive in my country, at least... In the non-commercial sense, I'd be surprised, though it may depend a little on how broadly you're willing to define "LARP"... (honestly, it's something almost every 6 year old does spontaneously, but it seems silly to count it without SOME kinds of rules.) WW can reasonably claim "the first LARP" in the same sense TSR could claim D&D as "the first RPG". They were around for YEARS; those companies just happened to make the first major commercial success out of it, and brought it to the public eye. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 23:37:59 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> Las Vegas and Archangels (was Chicago and Lilith and Marc) > > Besides..Jean's stuff always works, what with that bookshelf...he > >CAN'T make mistakes. And as history shows well, the really NEAT things > >usually come about from mistakes... > Jean would probably consider that a rather peculiar human conceit. > "Only the incompetent must discover things by accident." Vapula relies He probably would, at that. I just keep running up against the fact that pretty much ANYONE could be as good as Jean if they had his bookshelf. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 01:27:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> Casca's Conversion - part 2 On Wed, 1 Oct 1997, Andre Ribeiro wrote: > Er... Maybe I won't be able to use it at all... :-) Don't worry. When I post stuff for general consumption, I don't use house rules. I'll make sure it all adheres to WW standard. :) Besides, the rules really didn't change all -that- much...just the method of rolling, which changed the probability curve. - -- Casca (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 23:34:39 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: Re: IN> White Wolf's Games vs. In Nomine > This past year, in one of Seattle's suburbs, a family was killed by a badly > disturbed pair of young men who had been hanging out with World of Darkness > > I would think so, but my concern is still the disturbed individuals who cause > problems, not the hard-core roleplayers who like the chalenge. All told, I've gotta say, I don't think they're worth really worrying about. They'll find SOMETHING to freak out over, and you can't reasonably organize your life around the fear that someone you end up dealing with MIGHT turn out to be completely bonkers. Happily, the odds are with us on this one; for everyone who plays an evil character and then goes on a murder spree, there are several thousand who play evil characters and then go tuck their kids in and get a good night's sleep. Those ones just don't turn up in the news often. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Oct 1997 01:19:23 EST From: "PERRY M. LLOYD" Subject: RE: White Wolf stuff (Re: IN> A thought - opinions wanted) "Hey, Perry! The band-wagon's here!" "Yay! Let's jump on!!" ________________________________________ When I first showed my copy to In Nomine a few of the great gamers of Earlham College (Yes, I'm a college student, bite me) I received the comment: "Ah, so this is Steve Jackson Games' response to White Wolf." Now, I hadn't thought about that. Angst, terror, redemption. These themes seem to me to be shared by IN and WW. I like both, both have their place in my heart (and bookshelf) and... well... They may both be aimed at the same crowd. Personally, I *love* In Nomine a whole HELL of a lot. Whereas WW assumes "You're DAMNED" IN seems to assume "You're DAMNED -or- (and this is the really cool part) -or- You're BLESSED" So, might this be marketing genius, pulling in players from both sides, both the light and the dark, from the dark players and the bright players. Something I find very nice about IN is that, rather that the WW theme of "stuggling for redemption" (sorry, V:TM still is what I primarily associate WW with), rather that the "redemption" theme, IN offers a chance to play it from the other side of the coin, avoiding the FALL. I love it and it's great. - -Perry Perry M. Lloyd "Never say you're going to bed early, it's a dare the universe can't pass up." [found on an undergraduate's door] ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #374 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.