From owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Thu Oct 2 14:49:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA17306 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 14:49:11 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id OAA13323 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 14:14:03 -0500 Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 14:14:03 -0500 Message-Id: <199710021914.OAA13323@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #376 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@LISTS.IO.COM Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, October 2 1997 Volume 01 : Number 376 In this digest: Re: IN> Question about Shedim Re: IN> Casca's Conversion Re: IN> (Fwd) A Mercurians Logo Re: IN> White Wolf's Games vs. In Nomine Re: IN> On playing demons Re: Re: IN> White Wolf's Games vs. In Nomine Re: IN> On playing demons Re: IN> On playing demons Re: IN> On playing demons Re: IN> WW vs. INO and Playing Demons Re: IN> White Wolf's Games vs. In Nomine Mark's vision of In Nomine (Re: IN>WW vs. In Nomine) Re: IN> (Fwd) A Mercurians Logo Re: Re: IN> White Wolf's Games vs. In Nomine Re: IN> Demon Playing IN> LARP IN> Mercurian Logo Re: IN> WW vs. INO and Playing Demons Re: IN> On playing demons Re: IN> (Fwd) A Mercurians Logo IN> d666 patches IN> Demons vs. humans Re: IN> WW vs. INO and Playing Demons Re: IN> WW vs. INO and Playing Demons Re: Re: IN> White Wolf's Games vs. In Nomine Re: Re: IN> White Wolf's Games vs. In Nomine ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 11:20:01 -0400 From: Highway Star Subject: Re: IN> Question about Shedim At 15:11 -0400 9/29/97, Hobbes wrote: > >Vapula??? > I thought you were a Calabite... Oh well.:) SeanMike Impudite of Andre? Hmmm...with the Belseraph of Andre attunement...hmmm... - -- Sean Michael Whipkey, smw4s@virginia.edu Weldon Cooper Center for Public Service, Publications Div. 804/924-4185 (or -4188) voicenet, 804/982-5536 fax http://www.virginia.edu/~cpserv/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Oct 1997 11:46:09 -0400 From: "Chuck Ryan" Subject: Re: IN> Casca's Conversion Andre Ribeiro wrote: > Casca wrote: > > > > > Personally, I can't stand IN mechanics, so I've adapted the > material to > > > > Storyteller. I'm currently running said IN/WW game, and it's > working > > > > marvelously. Once I make sure all the glitches have been ironed > out, > > > > would anyone be interested if I posted my conversion rules? well and I may be completly alone here but I not only like both the game systems but the backgrounds as well and for roughly the same reasons good story nice easy workeble system and I would be very interested in the convertion rules if for no other reason than to tweek off my vampire player " oh yes the gaurd dog is quit dead unfotunatly the kryo host is not amused" can you imagine a powerfull celectial being with a *true faith of 10* " no really he's there trust me CHUCK ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 11:46:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> (Fwd) A Mercurians Logo On Thu, 2 Oct 1997, John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: > We're doing logos for all seven major Angelic Choirs; they'll get their > first use as graphic elements in the Angelic Player's Guide, but that's > just the beginning -- we have all sorts of plans for the future, including > t-shirts, jewelry, patches, etc. And we'll be doing the same thing for the > Demon Bands, too. Cool. I can put them on my jacket next to my Vampire Clan pins. ;) > We have six designs that rock. We're stuck on one, though -- Mercurians, > Friends of Man. We need some ideas for a simple figure or logo that just > jumps up and says, "Mercurians." And we need it soon. Today would be nice. A perfect sphere, representative of the earth to which they descend. It is bathed in the light of the dawn, giving all of creation a golden tint. Upon this earth are two points, symbolic of Man and Woman, with a space dividing them -- equally symbolic of the gender gap. Below them is an arcing line, representative of the Serpent which caused the temptation and created the schism between man and woman. Thus, it is the job of the Mercurians to bring the two back together depite the machinations of the evil one. - -- Casca (wondering if anyone will get the joke) (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 10:43:55 -0500 (CDT) From: Donald G Bixler Subject: Re: IN> White Wolf's Games vs. In Nomine > I think the reason I enjoy roleplaying games is that I get to be the hero (or > when I GM, I get to write those adventures). I can't imagine wanting to > encourage things like child pornography, callous murder, and watching Barney > (which if you're running demons true to their form, you will encounter such > things). The Holocaust was a horrible event in human history, I don't really > want a player with a Shedite of Fire getting all misty about the "good ole > days." Sure there are other ways to play it. You can emulate Piers > Anthony's Incarnations of Immortality (For Love of Evil comes to mind), and > play your demons tongue in cheek. Roleplaying re-deemons (chuckle) is > another way to go, but for the truly devoted diabolical player, that's not > gonna be satisfying (after all, they just end up becoming wussy angels if > they "win"). But who says that the angels are right? Demons can be the heroes too. Fighting against the Divine Dictator in the name of free will is heroic to me, especially if you take the position that "God" just got a monopoly and is taking credit for the stuff he found laying around. Just because someone in the game is called "God" doesn't mean that he's omnipotent or even "right". > I do disagree with Mark's assessment of White Wolf's players. Most people I > know who play WoD games enjoy the intense personal conflict playing such > characters encourages. All of the game systems, no matter how dark the > subject matter, are designed with the PCs trying to make things better for > their world and, as luck would have it, the rest of the world as well. > Demonic characters, taken as written, work to make the world a drekky pit > of despair and hoplessness. How do you reward good roleplaying in this > instance? "You've killed the bishop and raped his niece, forcing her to > embrace her Fate fully. Good job. Have some cake and 3 CPs." But you don't have to take them that way. Admittedly, the writing seems to be done so as to make it hard for demons to be nice, but even the Shedim, those most vile of demons can become a force for "good" with little work. They don't have to be running around raping, but instead can simply use their abilities to help. They can help a person see that perhaps what they thought of as evil is just different. A Shedim possesses a racist. He first starts off by encouraging his horse to bite back racial slurs at random people on the street. Next he gets the person to read some writings by minorities about racism and nudge him away from immediately labelling it as propoganda and think about what it says. Finally, the Shedim convinces the horse to actually try talking to someone at a local cultural center so that he can see that a minority is still a human being like themselves. Then the shedim leaves, content with the knowledge that the former racist is now reconsidering his position. That sounds like a good guy to me. > So as you may have guessed, I am not pro-diabolical roleplaying. I think > people who enjoy it just like to play the heavy, because the bad guy gets all > the best lines and gets to break the rules. The challenge to me, is not to > break the rules, but to work within them. Success is a lot more satisfying > when you've had to take the hard way. I don't think that playing demons is necessarily the easy way to go. If you're playing IN as the black-and-white, God is good- no ifs ands or buts, then it's pretty much impossible to have a shedim as a nice guy, evne if some of the angels are jerks. There are other ways to play IN, however, and if you don't have that absolute and the angels aren't necessarily nice, the demons just might be the right ones. Or they're both in it for themselves and humanity should look out for itself, which is a pretty interesting version as well, where neither the angels nor the demons can really be the heroes. It can be a lot tougher to be a hero as a demon or realize that as an angel, you're on the wrong side. Warning: Sensitive information about the ED PBEM. Please skip if you're a player. Thank you. My demonic characters certainly don't consider themselves as "the heavies". As a matter of fact, in the PBEM ran by Paul, Peter, and Martin, my demonic character is currently spending a lot of time trying to decide what to do with the human he's fallen in love with. The demon, Umabel, can't get the human, Jesse, to believe that he's really a demon and thinks that he's just playing a sick mind game. Umabel, on the other hand, despite how painful it would be, would let Jesse go rather than hurting him, but he fears what the Malakim in the city would do to poor Jesse in their quest to stomp out the evil. He currently has Jesse under guard in as nice a setting as he can arrange, but hates the idea of holding Jesse against his will. He's doing his best to be good. Likewise, he supports Vapula because he cannot stand the idea of Jean sitting in Heaven with the solutions to cancer, AIDS, world hunger, and pollution simply because the little monkeys aren't ready for them yet. Umabel seems a nice enough guy to me, and he certainly considers himself to be in the right. > Oh yikes. I sound like Ward Cleaver. Time to git while the gittin's good. I think you're safe. I doubt Ward ever used the word "gittin'". ;'} > S.A. Donald G. Bixler, Devil's Advocate mudgb4@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Oct 97 12:00 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> On playing demons > How do y'all deal well with playing demons? I've considered it, but >looking at each option, I just don't like them. More to the point, I just >don't want to spend my free time pretending to screw people over left and >right. Obviously, I don't have to (and I'd also have to be /playing/ IN to >have that choice, but school prevails), but I'm curious about this. Is this >a problem for anyone else? Well, I don't think I'd like to play one, but I don't think they have to be painted as black as you're picturing them. Think of it this way -- the demons are rebels against the control of Heaven. Like a lot of rebels, they're not exactly nice people, and they'll do a lot to get their way. Faced with superior force, they engage in sabotage and terrorism against the plans of Heaven, and try to win over the masses of humanity to support them. Also like a lot of rebel groups, demons aren't particularly cohesive politically -- about the only thing they agree on is that Heaven has got to go. Of course, the general selfish nature of demons doesn't make them real hero material -- you're not going to find a lot of demons who will sacrifice themselves for the Cause. But except for Shedim, a demon doesn't really need to do evil, though there is apparently a feeling in Hell that one way to win the War is to send all of humanity to Hell. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 12:05:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Gregory Littmann Subject: Re: Re: IN> White Wolf's Games vs. In Nomine > > >Right, key connections, I knew I was missing something. ISS was based on the > >"Mirror, Mirror" episode of Star Trek. "We aren't Starfleet, we're Imperial > >Starfleet, we're evil." This attitude led to a *lot* of problems for the > >leaders caused by a minority of players, which is my concern. > > You know, you're right. I've NEVER met any jerks that play anything > but WoD. White Wolf obviously manufactures idiots. > So...all the jerks you have met play anything but WoD? I don't think that can be what you meant to say - but I'm not sure what you *did* mean. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 12:12:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Gregory Littmann Subject: Re: IN> On playing demons > > Ah...my point was more general. The demons are written up in such a > way that a lot of what they do seems to just be "direct evil" rather than > needing to corrupt/convince/talk people into it. You can just make someone > do evil acts, regardless of their natural state. I don't want to play that > game (hence my comment below). I was just wondering how others see that. > > I think it leaves out the most fun parts of playing someone demonic. What was achieved with a die-roll could have been achieved through role-playing. As I said in an earlier post (replying to a post that was *later* than this one), I think it might be worth according more status to demons who can corrupt humans without using supernatural powers to circumvent their free will. I think there is some precedent for this. If I recall correctly, some medievals wondered why witches didn't get *more* for selling their souls, and the church's line was that the less that Hell has to pay for the soul, the bigger the insult to God. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 12:08:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Gregory Littmann Subject: Re: IN> On playing demons > > > I didn't see the moral quandry there for demons in the IN texts, to > date. Though several of the angels show real moral problems (Druel, etc.), > the demons largely seem to be pretty content with being demons. This isn't > what bugs me, however. What gets me is the ease with which demons can take > down a person, no matter who they are (barring the occasional high-Will > case). Maybe it's a particularly disturbing version of the WW "normals don't > matter" problem. > As written, the demons seem like they'll be spending a notable > portion of their time corrupting people, and they'll do it with ease. The > former is logical, the latter is what gets me. I could see playing a demon > who convinces a person to listen to their worse judgement...but IN demons > don't seem to operate that way. They don't need to have the human's help to > get them doing bad stuff. This is a real and significant problem. Demons tend to be more interesting when they are seducers. How about this - Demon Princes award more status to demons who can corrupt subtly rather than powering humans over with supernatural abilities. The more free will the human has as they fall, the more their soul is worth. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 12:21:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Gregory Littmann Subject: Re: IN> On playing demons > The `base' In Nomine adventure concept seems to be for a group of > Angelic players to be given a Demonic plot to foil. The idea of giving > Demonic players an Angelic plot to foil seems to strike people all > backwards, which doesn't make any sense to me at all...who SAYS the good > guys can't make plans? All the `culture' around it seems to operate on > that presumption, however...what Good generally does is sit around > waiting for Evil to get moving, and then Good gets in its way. I don't > buy it. > Amen brother! And for that matter, why can't the P.C.s be the ones to *lay* plans instead of just foiling the plans of the other side? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 11:16:27 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> WW vs. INO and Playing Demons > Funny. I don't play demons that way. Some of them feel as you stated > above above their relative station WRT humans, others are more concerned > about encouraging free will, some just don't like the system in Heaven, > and some just want to be left alone. Admittedly, this is a very Others may feel `disillusioned' with Heaven, have been Outcast and felt they had nowhere else to go, or even have gone Down deliberately with plans of working as a kind of double agent...(I suspect this is where most Habbalah come from; it's the kind of thing an Elohim would think, without realizing that when your Resonance changes, you don't think the same way.) > condensed version of the attitudes and certainly not all-encompassing, > but it seems to indicate a (big surprise!) difference in view about And we STILL don't have an all-encompassing list.. > to reason that most of the stuff is geared towards them. However, if > even the demonic player's guide is going to center on demonic NPCs > instead of help for players in demonic games or campaigns, I think that > the title should be changed and perhaps IN isn't quite the game I thought > it was. I've gotta second that, though; the DPG should have some specific guides for running demons in a reasonably playable way. If the people currently writing it are having major problems picturing demons as a viable PC force, I'd strongly recommend finding different writers for it. > among IN players, is not very appealing to me either. Of course, it may > just be that I find the idea of lying, torturing, and killing in the > name of God rather apalling and most people don't mind. Well, Torquemade canonized it...though I've just been informed that somebody high up in the Church is talking about issuing an errata. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Oct 97 13:25 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> White Wolf's Games vs. In Nomine >As an IN GM, I have trouble with letting my group take demons as PCs. It is >clear that demons as portrayed in the game are the very incarnations of evil >and selfishness. Selfishness, yes. Evil... maybe. They are clearly Not Nice People, but then, so are a lot of the angels -- look at the characters in the game and in the supplements. Part of the point in the game, I think, is that neither side really fits its stereotype, and that demons and angels are alike in a lot of ways, as well as different. *Shedim* are evil. The rest of the demons are just trying to get along in a world full of people a lot more powerful than them -- sort of like humans. And all demons (except the Fallen) have had a *really* unhappy childhood.... For the most part, I see demons as being nastiest in things close to the Word they serve; they're a lot freer in their attitudes towards things that don't directly concern that, since it doesn't really affect their personal power/standing/survival. I'm not saying that I particularly like IN demons (I don't, generally), but that a lot of them are not entirely black, but various shades of gray. Some of them are fairly sympathetic characters at times -- Lauren comes to mind, and Marcus has flashes here and there. Remember too, that IN states that the range of human behavior spans beyond demons and angels on both ends. There are probably a lot of things humanity does that disgust many demons. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 13:32:29 -0400 (EDT) From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Mark's vision of In Nomine (Re: IN>WW vs. In Nomine) To start out, I'd like to apologize to those who felt offended by my ranting. I was working in limited time and on low blood sugar. What follows is an attempt at clarifying my views on In Nomine. First, I would like to state a few things explicitly about myself and my game, so you can understand a bit better where I'm coming from: (1) I *am* a Christian, and both devout and fairly conservative. My theology is non-standard in a few places, but I do believe in both God and absolute standards of Good and Evil. (i.e., I believe in neither situational ethics nor flexible morality.) (2) I game *in public*, at the Wizards of the Coast Game Center in Seattle's University District. This means that I see a lot of gamers passing through, and that they tend to be "the young and the clueless." (Note again: I am talking about local and limited circumstances.) (3) I run In Nomine as something of a cautionary tale - players who say "Oh God!" or "Damnit!" are asking for Divine or Infernal Intervention, and have a *much* higher chance of getting it (like 1 in 6). Also, my scenarios emphasize the true evil and depravity of the Demonic forces (from snuff porn to attempted child rape, and these are Andre's boys...) Now, the question arises, where am I going with all this? My original point was that, especially in my experience, games or clubs that emphasize the darker side of humanity tend to attract humans with a darker "taint", including such self-destructive behavior as drug use, violence, and sexual promiscuity. (Remember, I *told* you I believe in an absolute morality.) In addition, I see In Nomine as a potentially powerful tool for teaching people about good and evil. A good Youth Pastor could, for instance, use it as a hook for some of the lessons he was trying to teach. However, like any powerful tool, it can be misused and/or misunderstood. My worst fear is that In Nomine (especially in Live-Action form) may trigger an overreaction that makes what happened with GURPS Cyberpunk look like the actions of a benevolent uncle. Hopefully this is clearer, Mark (who is trying to *avoid* getting his thumbs bit off.) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 13:39:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Hobbes Subject: Re: IN> (Fwd) A Mercurians Logo According to John Karakash - Lucent ASCC: > > We have six designs that rock. We're stuck on one, though -- Mercurians, > Friends of Man. We need some ideas for a simple figure or logo that just > jumps up and says, "Mercurians." And we need it soon. Today would be nice. > How about one of those little dancin' stick figures that go on the "Fukingroovin" shirts? I can see a mercurian now: glass of beer in one hand, little pin on his chest doing the same dance he is out on the disco floor.... course some would argue that disco is infernal.... Dan Ozdowski - Mercurians like ska! - -- Don't blame me, I voted for Sgarlata. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 11:44:15 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: Re: IN> White Wolf's Games vs. In Nomine > >I'm not talking about an "on the whole" situation, I'm talking > >about one or two bad fruit ruining the game for a whole lot of people. > To be perfectly honest, I don't really believe you. Someone who > tries to equate murder and gaming isn't someone I find particularly > trustworthy. Alright, having just seen about the sixth message accusing him of this, I've got to step in and note that I don't see it. He cited one example of some people who flipped out in association with an RPG, and then specifically noted that his concern was specifically directed to those -FEW PEOPLE- who can cause major problems. Now, we've all seen the media take these singular incidences and apply them either to the game itself or to everyone who does it, and it's caused enough problems that I suppose we can be forgiven if we're a little defensive on the subject...but Kestrel, really, take a few deep breathes and try to remind yourself that he *DID NOT* accuse you personally of being a slavering psychopath. All he REALLY said was that getting into a game with someone who DOES go bonkers can be a real downer, which I expect is true. Personally, I still think he worries overmuch on it, being that "RPG-inspired Psychopath" ranks *WAY* down there on the `ways to die' scale (Cancer's gone about a kazillion platinum for HOW many years in a row now?), but I really don't see where he deserves to be attacked over something the media did about 10 years ago, and he didn't. {Mark (wasn't it?); 'course, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong...I probably shouldn't go stepping in and speaking for you, so if you DID mean to say that we're all raving loonies, well..isn't MY face red.} ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 13:36:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Hobbes Subject: Re: IN> Demon Playing According to Highway Star: > > I thought you were a Calabite... > > Oh well.:) > > SeanMike > Impudite of Andre? Hmmm...with the Belseraph of Andre attunement...hmmm... > Actually, I am kind of Calabimmy. I guess this would be where I throw in .02$ about playing a demon. The demons I play tend to be kind of lighthearted. To use Archangel Beth-speak, I turn the brightness knob way up. I wouldn't play a child porn pusher or anything like that. I thought the demon antics in "A Dark Dream" were great. The Taco shack that gets terrorized by demons? *grin*, that's FUNNY! It doesn't really give you nightmares, it doesn't really corrupt society in a sick, twisted manner, and those people in the taco shack will have a hell of a bad day, but they'll live. This is the kind of demon stuff I like. I see my Calabite of Belial doing something like this: Resident walks back to his deck in the backyard where party is going on. Sees Calabite burning random stuff while drunken onlookers laugh and cheer. Comes back 5 minutes later with a very BAD feeling.... "What's that you just torched"? "I dunno, I found it on that table over there..." "That was my DIPLOMA!!!" "Really? Umm, I'm sorry - it didn't LOOK important.." This lets the 'Bite destroy something, so he's getting some giggles - it keeps his boss happy cause he's TORCHED something, and it does no real life-threatening harm because the degree is still there at the college in question, Mr. X just doesn't have a piece of paper saying, "I graduated - yipeee!!!". Um, well - anyways - I try not to be world-threateningly destructive.... Dan Ozdowski Thinks that he should warn the women of UVA if Seanmike gets ANY of Prince Andre's attunements.... - -- Don't blame me, I voted for Sgarlata. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Oct 1997 13:49:35 -0400 From: "Kirt A. Dankmyer -- aka Loki" Subject: IN> LARP > The point is: I'm not fond of *forcing* people to buy something just to play >a session of LARP... You see, *every* player would have to have one - no last >minute entries, no 'let me just play once to see what is it'... Shrug. The MET LARP I'm in already charges $10 to be in one "season" of the game, so I don't see using that money for equipment as a bad thing. And they already have NPCs lying around for walk-ons who want to try the game - -- it wouldn't be much of a stretch to have some extra "dice rollers" with the NPCs. Of course, I'd *prefer* a simple, cheap hand-signal system like rock-paper-scissors. And as far as having more options than RPS, I have one word for y'all: Undercut. -Loki - -- Kirt A. Dankmyer --- Academic Computing Specialist http://www.wfu.edu/~dankmyka/ -- (910) 759-4202 -- PGP public key available. For the Snark _was_ a Boojum, you see. --Lewis Carroll ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 13:11:11 -0500 (CDT) From: Martin Leslie Leuschen Subject: IN> Mercurian Logo An open hand? (Presumably extended in friendship.) A smile? A happy face with wings? A cup? (With light rays streaming out of it.) A stick-person? A musical note? (Obviously later picked up by the humans...) Just brainstorming, Martin Leuschen martinl@rice.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 14:17:06 -0400 (EDT) From: "Emily K. Dresner" Subject: Re: IN> WW vs. INO and Playing Demons > Others may feel `disillusioned' with Heaven, have been Outcast and > felt they had nowhere else to go, or even have gone Down deliberately with > plans of working as a kind of double agent...(I suspect this is where most > Habbalah come from; it's the kind of thing an Elohim would think, without > realizing that when your Resonance changes, you don't think the same way.) *grin* I'm glad I'm not the only one who has thought of this. :) Those Elohim, always so logical. It's just too bad. > > to reason that most of the stuff is geared towards them. However, if > > even the demonic player's guide is going to center on demonic NPCs > > instead of help for players in demonic games or campaigns, I think that > > the title should be changed and perhaps IN isn't quite the game I thought > > it was. > I've gotta second that, though; the DPG should have some specific > guides for running demons in a reasonably playable way. If the people > currently writing it are having major problems picturing demons as a > viable PC force, I'd strongly recommend finding different writers for it. *put hand in the air* Yeah! Writers! Demons! I'm so there I'm not even here! Seriously, I wonder about all this arguing about demons and demon players. What do the GM's do? I have a whole pile of demons at home, some of which are quite nasty, and some of them are nice guys. They have all sorts of range, from "I want you to laugh so hard you wet your pants, because won't that be funny when the NEXT person sits in your seat for the next show" to S&M to the demon who is convinced that the madness of human religion and television is the straight shot for him to Princehood to the Engineer who walked out of Heaven voluntarily because he got sick of Jean to the Djinn who stalks and murders people because that's just what he does. I'm a GM. I have never run a character in In Nomine. I have no problem with demons whatsoever, and I rather like them. I like angels too, but for different reasons. Like Angels, Demons and their personalities are not relegated to just one pigeonhole. Yes, some are nasty beyond compare. I would see a Shedim of Saminga helping along serial murderers, quite easily, and Djinn of Lust rapists. But that doesn't mean that's ALL YOU GET. Sheesh. Personally, a players handbook would be useful for me. I just like information. :) I'm greedy. I'm crazy for tech toys. Personally, I like to see people squirm. I dig horror and buckets o' blood. I'm not angel, but I get along in society okay. :) - - Em, Demon of.... something. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 14:23:26 -0400 () From: Greg Subject: Re: IN> On playing demons > > Think of it this way -- the demons are rebels against the control of > Heaven. Like a lot of rebels, they're not exactly nice people, and > they'll do a lot to get their way. Faced with superior force, they > engage in sabotage and terrorism against the plans of Heaven, and try to > win over the masses of humanity to support them. > > Of course, the general selfish nature of demons doesn't make them real > hero material -- you're not going to find a lot of demons who will > sacrifice themselves for the Cause. But except for Shedim, a demon > doesn't really need to do evil, though there is apparently a feeling in > Hell that one way to win the War is to send all of humanity to Hell. > And that is the *huge* problem with picturing demons as anything other than blacker than pitch. They are collaborating with a scheme whereby humans are sent to Hell to be tortured for all eternity. *Nothing* they can do on earth, from pushing child snuff movies to sponsoring Nazi rampages compare with the damning of a human soul (except insofar as these things might *lead* to the damning of human souls). The *best* moral stature that a demon can have is a selfishness so pure that he is willing to have others pay an infinite price for his personal gains. The most delightful demon makes Hitler look like Barney. Greg. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 14:35:12 -0400 (EDT) From: "Benjamin D. Hutchins" Subject: Re: IN> (Fwd) A Mercurians Logo > A perfect sphere, representative of the earth to which they descend. It > is bathed in the light of the dawn, giving all of creation a golden tint. > Upon this earth are two points, symbolic of Man and Woman, with a space > dividing them -- equally symbolic of the gender gap. Below them is an > arcing line, representative of the Serpent which caused the temptation > and created the schism between man and woman. Thus, it is the job of the > Mercurians to bring the two back together depite the machinations of the > evil one. Y'know, I don't burst out giggling in my cube at work nearly enough. My co-workers still react. I like this one a lot, but it probably treads on somebody else's trademark or something. Given the Mercurians' appearance as the "classic angels", I'd make their symbol a simple golden ring (perhaps represented in pin form by a circular pin with the center blacked out so that only the ring is in gold). - --G. - -- Benjamin D. Hutchins, cofounder and Keeper-Straight of the Continuity Eyrie Productions, Unlimited - An AnimeTech Limited Company -><- Visit us on the World Wide Web at http://www.eyrie.net/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 12:56:09 -0500 From: "Joshua Knorr" Subject: IN> d666 patches While I think the d666 system is way cool (esp. Interventions), one part of it has always bugged since the day I got my hot little hands of the In Nomine rulebook. Stop me if I'm wrong, but it seems to be that the degree of success for a given task (represented by the check digit) is totally unrelated to the difficulty of the task/skill of performer (represented by the target number). That is, you're just as likely to roll a CD of 6 on a TN of 12 (an incredibly easy task) as on a TN of 2 (well-nigh impossible). Seems to me like there are/should be greater possibility for greater success as you are more skilled. Has anyone come up with a good way to patch this apparent flaw in what is otherwise a beautiful game mechanic? Two things came to my mind right away. First, remind (and encourage) your players to increase the difficulty of their tasks. This is an indirect way of allowing greater skills to yield greater CDs. Another way would be to add a Proficiency Modifier for certain high TN values. When rolling against an unmodified (i.e. no player-increased difficulty) TN of 10, 11, or 12, confer a +1, +2, or +3 to the check digit *if successful*. This doesn't change the probability of an Intervention, though. A roll of 12 with a CD of 3 is *not* an Intervention. Joshua Knorr A conservative is a liberal who has just been mugged. A liberal is a conservative who has just been booked. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 14:20:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Stacy Stroud Subject: IN> Demons vs. humans Alexander Shearer wrote: > As written, the demons seem like they'll be spending a notable >portion of their time corrupting people, and they'll do it with ease. The >former is logical, the latter is what gets me. I could see playing a demon >who convinces a person to listen to their worse judgement...but IN demons >don't seem to operate that way. They don't need to have the human's help to >get them doing bad stuff. Part of that may just be a mechanical thing. I tend to agree with you that demons should be portrayed as tempting rather than forcing behavior; however, it may be that the reason demons *appear* to force behavior is that the humans they deal with tend to be NPCs. That resistance roll on Will represents the human's attempt to resist the demon. If the human loses, he/she gives in. It's not mind control; the human does have to cooperate (says so even in the description of Shedim). However, the decision to cooperate or not to cooperate is modeled by the Will roll. Now, humans in IN *do* tend to have pretty low Wills, so your point is still valid. It's really easy for a demon to work its will on just about any human, even one described as otherwise saintly. (Not Saintly, just saintly.) In many other games using a similar "willpower" mechanic, bonuses and penalties are given depending on the character's established personality traits. (In GURPS, for example, this is formalized with the advantage/disadvantage system.) Since IN doesn't have such a system (Discord is much less common than GURPS disads, and there are no corresponding virtuous traits to represent behavior patterns that harmonize well with the larger Symphony), we'll have to adapt the generic difficulty modifiers. Just knock the human's Will up a notch or two if the demon is trying to feed him a lie/emotion/Geas/foul deed/charming line that just isn't in line with the person's basic personality and past behavior; conversely, you could penalize Will if the person is particularly prone to go along with the demon's suggestion (especially if the human actually has developed an appropriate Discord). Whaddaya think? Stacy Stroud sstroud@uky.campus.mci.net ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 14:47:10 -0400 () From: Greg Subject: Re: IN> WW vs. INO and Playing Demons > > Demons make fun PCs in heavily political games, and in games where there is > a lot of moral turmoil (I hesitate to use the "a" word). Interesting you should say that. While I think its true for demons, I think it is *ten* times truer for Angels. I hope that support for In Nomine encourages Angelic characters who *think* about morality and have deeper moral concerns than just locating and destroying demons. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 14:44:33 -0400 () From: Greg Subject: Re: IN> WW vs. INO and Playing Demons > > I would never try to restrict anyone's freedom to roleplay however they > want. There was supposedly an infamous (possibly apocryphal) Champions game > at a GenCon a few years ago where the participants played supervillains and > earned points by going on a rape spree. Would you object to a killing spree in the same way? If not, why is a rape spree so much worse? For that matter, what is wrong with fictional badness of *any* form? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 97 13:55:09 -0500 (CDT) From: kestre1@airmail.net (Andrew Getting) Subject: Re: Re: IN> White Wolf's Games vs. In Nomine At 12:05 PM 10/2/97 -0400, in_nomine-l@lists.io.com wrote: > > >> >> >Right, key connections, I knew I was missing something. ISS was based on the >> >"Mirror, Mirror" episode of Star Trek. "We aren't Starfleet, we're Imperial >> >Starfleet, we're evil." This attitude led to a *lot* of problems for the >> >leaders caused by a minority of players, which is my concern. >> >> You know, you're right. I've NEVER met any jerks that play anything >> but WoD. White Wolf obviously manufactures idiots. >> > So...all the jerks you have met play anything but WoD? I don't think >that can be what you meant to say - but I'm not sure what you *did* mean. Sarcasm. Kestrel ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 97 13:55:06 -0500 (CDT) From: kestre1@airmail.net (Andrew Getting) Subject: Re: Re: IN> White Wolf's Games vs. In Nomine At 11:44 AM 10/2/97 -0600, in_nomine-l@lists.io.com wrote: >> >I'm not talking about an "on the whole" situation, I'm talking >> >about one or two bad fruit ruining the game for a whole lot of people. >> To be perfectly honest, I don't really believe you. Someone who >> tries to equate murder and gaming isn't someone I find particularly >> trustworthy. > > Alright, having just seen about the sixth message accusing him of >this, I've got to step in and note that I don't see it. He cited one >example of some people who flipped out in association with an RPG, and >then specifically noted that his concern was specifically directed to >those -FEW PEOPLE- who can cause major problems. Because it has absolutely dick to do with WoD and WW. It has to do with some nuts. Yet he decided to include it in his argument. > Now, we've all seen the media take these singular incidences and >apply them either to the game itself or to everyone who does it, and it's >caused enough problems that I suppose we can be forgiven if we're a little >defensive on the subject... Then he should have known better. >but Kestrel, really, take a few deep breathes >and try to remind yourself that he *DID NOT* accuse you personally of >being a slavering psychopath. No, he didn't. He just accused the games I play of making these guys into psychopaths. He used them as a reason he doesn't like playing with WW players. >All he REALLY said was that getting into a >game with someone who DOES go bonkers can be a real downer, which I expect >is true. Personally, I still think he worries overmuch on it, being that >"RPG-inspired Psychopath" ranks *WAY* down there on the `ways to die' >scale (Cancer's gone about a kazillion platinum for HOW many years in a >row now?), but I really don't see where he deserves to be attacked over >something the media did about 10 years ago, and he didn't. Because he did. He linked some killers and some games. As the roommate of someone who got disowned for playing RPGs, even linking them is bad form. He used them as example players. Kestrel ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #376 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.