From owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Thu Oct 2 16:17:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA26343 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 16:17:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id PAA19865 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 15:27:46 -0500 Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 15:27:46 -0500 Message-Id: <199710022027.PAA19865@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #377 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@LISTS.IO.COM Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, October 2 1997 Volume 01 : Number 377 In this digest: IN> Vessel death and 'A Bright/Dark Dream' Re: IN> White Wolf's Games vs. In Nomine IN> Mark's vision of In Nomine Re: IN> Demon Playing Re: IN> (Fwd) A Mercurians Logo Re: IN> (Fwd) A Mercurians Logo Re: IN> Lilim and Malakim (fwd) Re: IN> d666 patches Re: IN> Multitasking Superiors Re: IN> WW vs. INO and Playing Demons Re: IN> Mercurian Logo Re: IN> On playing demons Re: IN> Boo Berries (fluffathon) Re: IN> d666 patches Re: IN> On playing demons Re: IN> On playing demons Re: Re: IN> White Wolf's Games vs. In Nomine Re: IN> (Fwd) A Mercurians Logo Re: IN> d666 patches Re: IN> Vessel death and 'A Bright/Dark Dream' ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 14:52:18 -0400 From: johnk@ascc01.ascc.lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) Subject: IN> Vessel death and 'A Bright/Dark Dream' One thing that has bugged me about the starting story is how it doesn't _quite_ match the game rules. That's okay with me... really it is. But I'd prefer if they matched precisely. A scene in particular, while cool, that doesn't fit is when Charlie is trying to repair his vessel, but it's too badly damaged. Charlie shows up again not long later... probably far too short a time to have gone through Trauma, so I've been trying to think of a way that this could fit into the game. In the process I came up with a cool new 'general' Attunement that could be handed out by any of the Superiors (especially the more martial ones). Borrowed Time Normally a Celestial who is between 0 and negative (vessel level time strength) Body hits is unconscious. But a being with Borrowed Time can continue to function at negative hits at the possible cost of losing his vessel. This will not stop the vessel from dying if enough damage to normally kill the vessel is taken! Every round that the Celestial chooses to stay conscious at 0 or negative Body Hits, the 'death threshold' (normally negative vessel level times strength) is raised by five points (up to a maximum of 0). This means that if the vessel is not healed up to or above the new death threshold while Borrowed Time is in effect, it will die. Borrowed Time will last as long as the current conflict plus five rounds. A Celestial can voluntarily abandon a vessel that they judge to be too injured and thus avoid most of the Trauma. It takes Total Forces times 10 minutes to recover. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 14:36:27 -0400 () From: Greg Subject: Re: IN> White Wolf's Games vs. In Nomine > > But who says that the angels are right? Demons can be the heroes too. Only with a *huge* revamping of the setting (on which front I say - go for it!). > Fighting against the Divine Dictator in the name of free will is heroic > to me, especially if you take the position that "God" just got a > monopoly and is taking credit for the stuff he found laying around. > Just because someone in the game is called "God" doesn't mean that he's > omnipotent or even "right". That is true. The one big thing God has going for him is that he runs Heaven instead of Hell. If you are going to recast demons as heroic, I think you are going to need to tone down the fire and brimstone awaiting the damned and replace it with something a little less cruel. > > > I do disagree with Mark's assessment of White Wolf's players. Most people I > > know who play WoD games enjoy the intense personal conflict playing such > > characters encourages. All of the game systems, no matter how dark the > > subject matter, are designed with the PCs trying to make things better for > > their world and, as luck would have it, the rest of the world as well. > > Demonic characters, taken as written, work to make the world a drekky pit > > of despair and hoplessness. How do you reward good roleplaying in this > > instance? "You've killed the bishop and raped his niece, forcing her to > > embrace her Fate fully. Good job. Have some cake and 3 CPs." > > But you don't have to take them that way. Admittedly, the writing seems > to be done so as to make it hard for demons to be nice, but even the > Shedim, those most vile of demons can become a force for "good" with > little work. They don't have to be running around raping, but instead > can simply use their abilities to help. They can help a person see that > perhaps what they thought of as evil is just different. A Shedim > possesses a racist. He first starts off by encouraging his horse to > bite back racial slurs at random people on the street. Next he gets the > person to read some writings by minorities about racism and nudge him > away from immediately labelling it as propoganda and think about what it > says. Finally, the Shedim convinces the horse to actually try talking > to someone at a local cultural center so that he can see that a minority > is still a human being like themselves. Then the shedim leaves, content > with the knowledge that the former racist is now reconsidering his > position. That sounds like a good guy to me. This is certainly an interesting take on demonic corruption. But what does the same Shedim do when he comes across someone brimming with racial tollerence? Does he also possess that person and try to change *their* mind by trying to show them that the evil of racism is really just different? And where does this leave angels in your scheme? Do they just try to make sure that people hold on to their moral views, whatever those veiws might be - encouraging the kind persona and the Nazi alike to hold on to what they believe? > > > So as you may have guessed, I am not pro-diabolical roleplaying. I think > > people who enjoy it just like to play the heavy, because the bad guy gets all > > the best lines and gets to break the rules. The challenge to me, is not to > > break the rules, but to work within them. Success is a lot more satisfying > > when you've had to take the hard way. > > I don't think that playing demons is necessarily the easy way to go. If > you're playing IN as the black-and-white, God is good- no ifs ands or > buts, then it's pretty much impossible to have a shedim as a nice guy, > evne if some of the angels are jerks. But there is also the question of how Angels and Demons will deal with *each other* in such a world. Your nice-guy demon may find himself not fighting for Hell against Heaven but fighting alongside a bunch of angelic friends against another gang of allied Angels and Demons. There will be "nice" and "nasty" factions in each camp who have a lot more in common with each other than with their celestial brothers. > There are other ways to play IN, > however, and if you don't have that absolute and the angels aren't > necessarily nice, the demons just might be the right ones. Or they're > both in it for themselves and humanity should look out for itself, which > is a pretty interesting version as well, Now *that* would be a bleak game! :) > where neither the angels nor > the demons can really be the heroes. It can be a lot tougher to be a > hero as a demon or realize that as an angel, you're on the wrong side. > > Warning: Sensitive information about the ED PBEM. Please skip if you're > a player. Thank you. > > My demonic characters certainly don't consider themselves as "the > heavies". As a matter of fact, in the PBEM ran by Paul, Peter, and > Martin, my demonic character is currently spending a lot of time trying > to decide what to do with the human he's fallen in love with. The > demon, Umabel, can't get the human, Jesse, to believe that he's really a > demon and thinks that he's just playing a sick mind game. Umabel, on > the other hand, despite how painful it would be, would let Jesse go > rather than hurting him, but he fears what the Malakim in the city would > do to poor Jesse in their quest to stomp out the evil. He currently > has Jesse under guard in as nice a setting as he can arrange, but hates > the idea of holding Jesse against his will. He's doing his best to be > good. Likewise, he supports Vapula because he cannot stand the idea of > Jean sitting in Heaven with the solutions to cancer, AIDS, world hunger, > and pollution simply because the little monkeys aren't ready for them > yet. This kind of outrage makes sense, but are Vampula's plans not also a bit on the horrible side? If anything, it sounds like this guy should go independent. At least, unless you are going to give the lords of Hell a major revamp too. Greg. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 14:05:34 -0500 (CDT) From: Dorothy Bixler Subject: IN> Mark's vision of In Nomine On Thu, 2 Oct 1997 MarkDEddy@aol.com wrote: (Snipped) > > (3) I run In Nomine as something of a cautionary tale - players who say "Oh > God!" or "Damnit!" are asking for Divine or Infernal Intervention, and have a > *much* higher chance of getting it (like 1 in 6). Also, my scenarios > emphasize the true evil and depravity of the Demonic forces (from snuff porn > to attempted child rape, and these are Andre's boys...) *Evil laugh* No- thoses examles are sick-o's. Evil on the other (left) hand is much more subtle. > > Now, the question arises, where am I going with all this? My original point > was that, especially in my experience, games or clubs that emphasize the > darker side of humanity tend to attract humans with a darker "taint", > including such self-destructive behavior as drug use, violence, and sexual > promiscuity. (Remember, I *told* you I believe in an absolute morality.) And then there those of us who can come up with more creative ways to be evil :) > In addition, I see In Nomine as a potentially powerful tool for teaching > people about good and evil. A good Youth Pastor could, for instance, use it Whoah. Brakes on right there. You're opposed to all of this 'cause you can't _convert_ the unbelievers to your faith with it?!? Listen, this is a _game_. A game- nothing more, and nothing less. To think that you can take your morals and force them upon someone else, is totaly abhorrant to every thing I stand for as a person. I understand your beliefs- I understand Christianity better than a lot of Christians I've met. But it is _not_ the role of a GM to convert players to their standards of good/evil. And it certianlly shoudn't be the intentions of a game line (_Any_ game line). If this isn't what you mean you'd better clarify > Hopefully this is clearer, > Mark (who is trying to *avoid* getting his thumbs bit off.) > Dotti Michelle (Hell Sworn since 1991)- Donald and I can't be the only Pagans around here. *Dorothy Michelle Bixler * mudmh10@ecom.ecn.bgu.edu* "Gidget, have you been laying with the Horned One again?" -MST3K's Mike from "The Thing the Couldn't Die" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 14:59:40 -0400 From: Highway Star Subject: Re: IN> Demon Playing At 13:36 -0400 10/2/97, Hobbes wrote: >The demons I play tend to be kind of lighthearted. To use >Archangel Beth-speak, I turn the brightness knob way up. I >wouldn't play a child porn pusher or anything like that. I.e., you leave the really sick antics to NPC demons, just like the really sick angel stuff should be NPCs. How many refs want their players acting like Druiel in "Night Music"? (Which, btw, I just picked up, and really, really enjoyed, and just the physical aspects of the book means the owner of the game store I bought it from will carry more IN stuff - he likes how it looks on the shelf). >I thought the demon antics in "A Dark Dream" were great. The >Taco shack that gets terrorized by demons? *grin*, that's >FUNNY! It doesn't really give you nightmares, it doesn't >really corrupt society in a sick, twisted manner, and those >people in the taco shack will have a hell of a bad day, but >they'll live. Of course, not all of them might, if you remember (the bit about the 911 call getting drowned out by complaining customers). Some of the demons seem to be more interested in the ability to do whatever the hell they like (i.e., most Lilim, and maybe Lauren, demon of strippers). Some are in it for power (whatshisname from "Feast of Blades", Furfur from "Night Music"). Some are in it for fun (most Calabites, it seems). Others are pretty much just stuck being a demon (Marcus, perhaps?), while some who are in it for sheer evil are much, much rarer, and probably get snuffed a lot by fellow demons (I'm thinking most Shedim, here, such as Saminga). Why do they get snuffed? 'Cause they are trying to be evilevilevil, and get in the way of the powermongers, who seem them as political rivals, of the freedom lovers, who seem them as imposing on their freedom, the fun filled guys, who seem them with as much disgust as some angels, and the trapped demons, who don't like to be associated with them. >This is the kind of demon stuff I like. I see my Calabite of >Belial doing something like this: - --example snipped-- Well, at least in my case it was just the random citronella candles we found, and not any diplomas... >This lets the 'Bite destroy something, so he's getting some >giggles - it keeps his boss happy cause he's TORCHED something, Of course, some calabites can be as evil as shedim - such as Hugo's superior in Austin, who walked around the room, listening to the noise of the bones he was breaking. There was a nasty bugger, and once again, probably not acceptable as a PC. However, how about if the Calabite PC was using his Soldier of Hell servant as a punching bag? I'd see that as okay - - the Soldier of Hell did *sign up* for it (assuming it wasn't one of the "Halfinsanesigningyourlifeawaytoavoiddeath" type deals). >Um, well - anyways - I try not to be world-threateningly >destructive.... If you destroy the world, what else do you have to destroy, hmm? >Thinks that he should warn the women of UVA if Seanmike gets >ANY of Prince Andre's attunements.... How do you know I haven't already?! BWAHAHAHAHAHA! SeanMike who, of course, loves humans SO much he doesn't want to really HURT them unless they upset him...:):):) (also considering for himself a Calabite of Furfur, but should run Night Music through first...) - -- Sean Michael Whipkey, smw4s@virginia.edu Weldon Cooper Center for Public Service, Publications Div. 804/924-4185 (or -4188) voicenet, 804/982-5536 fax http://www.virginia.edu/~cpserv/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Oct 1997 19:06:34 GMT From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: Re: IN> (Fwd) A Mercurians Logo On Thu, 2 Oct 1997 08:42:58 -0400, johnk@ascc01.ascc.lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) wrote: >We have six designs that rock. We're stuck on one, though -- Mercurians, >Friends of Man. We need some ideas for a simple figure or logo that just >jumps up and says, "Mercurians." And we need it soon. Today would be nice. An large angelic figure with wings and arms spread wide, enclosing a number of human figures--shorter than him and of varying dress, sex, and race-- clearly showing the Mercurian's spread wings and arms and emphasizing his role as friend of all mankind. (Think of an elemetary school teacher with angel wings herding a bunch of kids about chest tall.) If that's too much detail, an angelic figure lovingly holding the world. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 15:10:51 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> (Fwd) A Mercurians Logo At 11:46 AM -0400 10/2/97, Casca wrote: >On Thu, 2 Oct 1997, John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: >A perfect sphere, representative of the earth to which they descend. It >is bathed in the light of the dawn, giving all of creation a golden tint. >Upon this earth are two points, symbolic of Man and Woman, with a space >dividing them -- equally symbolic of the gender gap. Below them is an >arcing line, representative of the Serpent which caused the temptation >and created the schism between man and woman. Thus, it is the job of the >Mercurians to bring the two back together depite the machinations of the >evil one. > >-- Casca (wondering if anyone will get the joke) Thou art a *sick* puppy.... Sick, sick, sick. Don't forget the crater in the middle, in between the two points, symbolic of Lucifer going splat right there and striving to keep the points seperated. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 14:48:44 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Lilim and Malakim (fwd) (Just as a note -- eventually there *will* be canon published about whether the Fall happened before or after Eden/Lilith. Promise. I'm just not sure if it's been kicked into shape enough for me to reveal.) >> > MaBarry just suggested `Eli', which is a fun thought...(though >> > personally, I'm leaning towards Laurence. Partly because they both start >> I like the suggestion of Eli. I dunno why. Maybe because, ever since my >> favorite Lilim commented that her greatest fantasy is Laurence wearing, >> uh, nothing, I've had a hard time taking him really seriously. :) > I dunno...I picture him in a purple lace teddy, actually. Collar and cuffs, of course. *AHEM* This is all the fault of whoever- it-was who wanted the Archangel of Archives as Dominatrix... Or maybe K.K. She's got such a gutter-mind. (...) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 14:20:28 -0500 (CDT) From: Donald G Bixler Subject: Re: IN> d666 patches > Stop me if I'm wrong, but it seems to be that the degree of success for a > given task (represented by the check digit) is totally unrelated to the > difficulty of the task/skill of performer (represented by the target > number). That is, you're just as likely to roll a CD of 6 on a TN of 12 (an > incredibly easy task) as on a TN of 2 (well-nigh impossible). Seems to me > like there are/should be greater possibility for greater success as you are > more skilled. There is. If your attribute + skill is above 12, you have an automatic success (barring intervention) with a bonus to the check digit. If you have a Will of 8 and a skill of 5 in Fast-Talk, provided that there isn't an intervention the check digit of the success will have one added to it, since Will+Fast-Talk is 13, if the characteristic+skill was 15, for instance, the CD would have a +3. It's on page 40. > Joshua Knorr Oops da Ogre, hope this helps mudgb4@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 15:19:29 -0400 From: Highway Star Subject: Re: IN> Multitasking Superiors At 17:47 -0300 9/29/97, Andre Ribeiro wrote: > > How do you people handle the attention focus of Superiors? I know, >God is omniscient, but are Superiors?? Can Mighty Prince Andre Well, in my game... Superiors aren't omniscient - that's reserved for God. However, they do have a good deal of control of the Symphony, in regards to both space AND time. Therefore, they are just much more efficient at the usage of it then we are. How do you think Dominic keeps up with EACH and EVERY one of his servants, hmmm? However, they do have to keep track mentally of everything going on - most of them don't want to write it down, or entrust anyone else with it, for fear of loss, erasure, betrayal, etc. For most of 'em, that's no problem, as they're so much smarter then normal humans, with great memories. For others, like Saminga...well, if you're talking to him, you just gotta keep on your toes and don't expect him to remember/care. SeanMike - -- Sean Michael Whipkey, smw4s@virginia.edu Weldon Cooper Center for Public Service, Publications Div. 804/924-4185 (or -4188) voicenet, 804/982-5536 fax http://www.virginia.edu/~cpserv/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 15:08:47 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> WW vs. INO and Playing Demons At 10:07 AM -0500 10/2/97, Donald G Bixler wrote: [...] >I've been waiting for more information on demonic campaigns, but haven't >been too concerned because, hey, most people prefer angels, so it stands >to reason that most of the stuff is geared towards them. However, if >even the demonic player's guide is going to center on demonic NPCs >instead of help for players in demonic games or campaigns, I think that >the title should be changed and perhaps IN isn't quite the game I thought >it was. From what I've seen, the demonic player's (players'?) guide ought to be just as good at making demonic PCs as the angel players guide will be at making angelic NPCs. And vice versa. In particular, there are sections on how the various Princes interact with their Servitors, demonic mindsets, and other useful things that are pretty demon-specific. A GM can use them as "behind the scenes" for his NPCs, or as plots for his PCs. While it's unlikely that there's going to ever be a "Big Book of Shedim Adventures," I personally don't want demons to be totally shafted or have their only option be Redemption. Playing In Nomine as "rebels against the nazi angels" is a perfectly valid spin to put on it, and there should be stuff to match. (Sometimes it's a little hard. I identify more with "Archangel of Archives" than "Demon Princess of Nitpicking"... But I'm trying. Very trying. };> ) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Oct 1997 19:30:05 GMT From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: Re: IN> Mercurian Logo On Thu, 2 Oct 1997 13:11:11 -0500 (CDT), Martin Leslie Leuschen wrote: >An open hand? (Presumably extended in friendship.) >A smile? >A happy face with wings? >A cup? (With light rays streaming out of it.) >A stick-person? >A musical note? (Obviously later picked up by the humans...) Adding to this brainstorming, how about a quarter note with the "flag" wing-shaped, and the "ball" a smiling face? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 14:32:15 -0500 (CDT) From: Donald G Bixler Subject: Re: IN> On playing demons > And that is the *huge* problem with picturing demons as anything other > than blacker than pitch. They are collaborating with a scheme whereby > humans are sent to Hell to be tortured for all eternity. *Nothing* they > can do on earth, from pushing child snuff movies to sponsoring Nazi > rampages compare with the damning of a human soul (except insofar as these > things might *lead* to the damning of human souls). The *best* moral > stature that a demon can have is a selfishness so pure that he is willing > to have others pay an infinite price for his personal gains. The most > delightful demon makes Hitler look like Barney. Well, discussion over. Nothing to see folks, just move along. Actually, I'd just like to point out that that's not how Hell _has_ to run. I know many people (but then again I'm an evil scientist, bane of most theologians) who would voluntarily donate their essence to Vapula's studies and help testing. Likewise, Shal-Mari seems a fairly nice place and even Sheol might be enjoyable, for a pyromaniac. And who says that heaven's any better? Almost no human souls stay at the level that PC angels can reach, and those are obviously being kept around because they, as Saints and Bodhisattvistas, are useful to Heaven's plans. > Greg. Donald G. Bixler mudgb4@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 15:14:09 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Boo Berries (fluffathon) At 10:57 PM -0600 10/1/97, Kingsley Lintz wrote: >> (Now, if all the photos of me at GenCon hadn't come out making >> me look forshortened and *fat*, I'd put some on my pages. O:< ) > Aww, go for it. It'll give me the impetus to upgrade from Lynx... Well, there's already a picture of me in my wedding outfit there... Hm. I could always get some more pictures taken... At 9:22 AM -0400 10/2/97, John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: >> > YES, PLEASE. I would pay to see this... >> >> Hey, Karakash, think we should tell SJ to do up the Archangel of >> Archives postcard set? Think it'd sell? > > Hrm. _I'd_ buy a set! > > Along those lines, I'm struggling madly to find time >to continue work on a completely non-official IN card game. >Want to be in it? ;) Suuuuurrrrrrreeeeeee.... At 9:25 AM -0400 10/2/97, John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: >> >Hey, Karakash, think we should tell SJ to do up the Archangel of >> >Archives postcard set? Think it'd sell? >> >> Maybe you should pose for the Lilith illustration when she gets her >> expanded Superior write-up.... (Hmmm... there *isn't* a Lilith picture >> in the basic IN book, is there? If I were her, I'd be annoyed that I >> was the only Superior who didn't get one....) > > Steve probably couldn't afford the licensing fees that Lilith >wanted... nothing is free, of course! ;) ("Awww, c'mon Stevie, it's >just a _little_ Geas. Really.") Evil Stevie, resist temptation? What Kyrio got into *him*?? O;> - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Oct 1997 19:29:52 GMT From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: Re: IN> d666 patches On Thu, 2 Oct 1997 12:56:09 -0500, "Joshua Knorr" wrote: >Stop me if I'm wrong, but it seems to be that the degree of success for a >given task (represented by the check digit) is totally unrelated to the >difficulty of the task/skill of performer (represented by the target >number). That is, you're just as likely to roll a CD of 6 on a TN of 12 (an >incredibly easy task) as on a TN of 2 (well-nigh impossible). Seems to me >like there are/should be greater possibility for greater success as you are >more skilled. This is actually handled in the system. A player can (with GM approval) choose to make a task easier and take a -1 CD, or make a task harder and take a +1 CD. So, a player with a TN of 12 might use a TN of 11 and get a +1 CD. This is in the Risk section on page 39. If you feel this is inadequate, you might allow larger adjustments: +2 for -2 CD, or -2 for +2 CD. You might also rule on difficulty, allowing a -2 to +2 adjustment to the TN, which could affect the final CD. Also, note the modifiers for Song performance or Resonance modifiers. Additionally, the TNs can be over 12, sometimes far over. This translates directly into higher CDs. While these higher CDs are useless for 1-6 table detection rolls, the can be useful for other rolls. Indeed, extremely powerful characters (or even beginning characters with extremely concentrates skills) can routinely have TNs over 12. At this point, the contest is who can get the highest CD. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 15:14:05 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> On playing demons At 3:05 PM -0700 10/1/97, Alexander Shearer wrote: >The recent burst of WW/IN discussion prompts me to ask this: > > How do y'all deal well with playing demons? I've considered it, but >looking at each option, I just don't like them. More to the point, I just >don't want to spend my free time pretending to screw people over left and >right. Obviously, I don't have to (and I'd also have to be /playing/ IN to >have that choice, but school prevails), but I'm curious about this. Is this >a problem for anyone else? So far, I've mostly been doing a Renegade one -- she's got a dose of enlightened self interest ("If I do good things for people, most of them will do good things for me; this includes the angels I have fallen among, and since I don't want them to tell the Malakim on me, I'll humor them. Besides, I kinda like 'em. A little."), a dose of empathy-sort-of ("Slavery is *wrong*, even when it's demons doing it to humans. Humans will come to temptations of their own free will, so nobody should be mucking with their heads to remove that free will!"), and a great gob of independance and a grudge against a Servitor of Kronos... (Do *not* let the Habbalite of Fate with the Lust Discord geas a young Lilim into helping to, essentially, sell a kid into slavery.) Anyway, that's the setup we gave her. The angels in the group think she's a prime candidate for Redemption (and, well, okay, I'm sort of working her in that direction, slowly). She thinks they're nuts and she's nuts for hanging out with them, but they're more fun to work with than most of the Princes would be. (Especially after she caught Mom in a good mood and bought assurances that her Geasa wouldn't be sold to some of the most powerful Princes in Hell...) Bouncing her selfish tendencies off of angelic heroics is entertaining. (Feast of Blades: Landridge house, Early, while the party is still going on. "I'm just waiting for somebody to say, 'send the *demon* in to scout around," quoth the Lilim in semi-sarcasm, hiding under the car-seat in a cat-vessel.) The GM ruled that in his game, there would be no "evil" characters. Only neutrals. This seems to work out well. (There's also a reccomendation against Malakim...) Another possibility would be to rule that there could be no "evil" demons -- only ones who were a touch amoral. No Shedim, no fanatic Servitors of Saminga, say. Might let some people get a demon-fix (it *is* an intereting mindset) without things turning into a Chaotic Evil Slayfest. However, I've also done some fiction with demons (okay, okay, so one of 'em's Fallen and used to be an angel). In that case, I did a pair of Servitors of the Game, so most of their "evil" nature is taken out on Renegades (or a demon they can claim is Renegade). Humans just don't figure into the equation for them, mostly. When humans do come in, they're, well... To be used. It's not a matter, for these characters, of gloating over human suffering. It's that humans simply aren't worth caring about, except as tools. If they are benifited or harmed -- makes no differnce. Getting the target makes the difference. I think that's how I'd play a "real" demon, too -- humans are tools and toys (and, if Impudite, a buffet). Some demons get their kicks out of breaking humans, showing that they're powerful enough to control others. Some demons don't need that, and just go around doing what they're told; humanity as a cardboard cutout. You don't have to screw people over -- though it's probably typical enough with demon groups -- but demons probably do have to be ruthless about their goals. If they have to push a toddler's carriage into traffic for some reason, most demons will do it. I view most demons (with the exception of Shedim) as utterly *a*moral, so focused on their own self that nobody else is quite real, nobody else matters. They can do whatever they *want*. (Sometimes that's evil, sometimes it's merely cold.) Some demons actually sort of protect some humans -- Lauren, the Demon of Strippers, chews out whatshisname, the Servitor of Drugs, for bringing that stuff around her girls. "Don't mix your evil with my evil," she tells him. Think a lord and serfs, perhaps. > Anyway, returning to topic, I just can't get over the unpleasantries >involved in actually playing a demon. The basic problem seems to be that a >lot of what the demons do can work on anyone, regardless of their moral >character, etc. The whole idea of playing a Shedim who can just waltz in and >instantly make a random person do something more hideous than they've ever >done...well, it doesn't appeal to me. Shedim are squicky, squicky, squicky. They give demons a bad name. > That said, I'm not trying to rag on people who do play demons. >Hmmm...I might try playing a Lilim sometime, should I ever get the chance. I >can deal with people digging their own holes... Habbalah are also somewhat interesting -- they're so utterly lunatic. Check out some of Maya's stories. ( http://www.tcp.co.uk/~maya Take the In Nomine link. ) They also get to despise (other) demons. At 6:54 AM -0700 10/2/97, Alexander Shearer wrote: > As written, the demons seem like they'll be spending a notable >portion of their time corrupting people, and they'll do it with ease. The >former is logical, the latter is what gets me. I could see playing a demon >who convinces a person to listen to their worse judgement...but IN demons >don't seem to operate that way. They don't need to have the human's help to >get them doing bad stuff. Do note, however, that the more they use their resonances, the more likely they are to suffer a backlash or worse -- a Divine Intervention. Also, don't forget that humans can spend Essence (unconsciously, all at once) to resist something that they really don't want to do. If they make the resistance, the demon usually has trouble affecting them again soon. At 12:00 PM -0400 10/2/97, Walter Milliken wrote: >Of course, the general selfish nature of demons doesn't make them real >hero material -- you're not going to find a lot of demons who will >sacrifice themselves for the Cause. But except for Shedim, a demon >doesn't really need to do evil, though there is apparently a feeling in >Hell that one way to win the War is to send all of humanity to Hell. Get more power that way. Humans are wonderful little Essence generators. Do you want them up in Heaven, generating power for the Establishment, or down in Hell, generating power for your bosses? - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 15:55:57 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> On playing demons At 2:23 PM -0400 10/2/97, Greg wrote: >> >> Think of it this way -- the demons are rebels against the control of >> Heaven. Like a lot of rebels, they're not exactly nice people, and >> they'll do a lot to get their way. Faced with superior force, they >> engage in sabotage and terrorism against the plans of Heaven, and try to >> win over the masses of humanity to support them. >> >> Of course, the general selfish nature of demons doesn't make them real >> hero material -- you're not going to find a lot of demons who will >> sacrifice themselves for the Cause. But except for Shedim, a demon >> doesn't really need to do evil, though there is apparently a feeling in >> Hell that one way to win the War is to send all of humanity to Hell. >> > And that is the *huge* problem with picturing demons as anything other >than blacker than pitch. They are collaborating with a scheme whereby >humans are sent to Hell to be tortured for all eternity. Or Shal-Mari, to have their Essence swindled out of them in eternity's biggest Brothel/Casino/Gormet Resteraunt/etc. Or Perdition, to fixate on a bouncing ball for all eternity. Or Gehenna, to fight (which at least has a chance of *winning*, sort of)... If you want "kinder" fates for the Hellbound souls, have them corrupted by demons of Lust, Gluttony, Dark Humor and the Media. Remember, not all demons torture the damned souls because they're sadists. (Though there are plenty of those, especially Habbalah...) They're doing it mostly to get Essence out of the little generators. If torture is the most effecient way to do it... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 16:07:39 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: Re: IN> White Wolf's Games vs. In Nomine Whoa. This is getting off topic. Calm the flaming. Discussing ways to *avoid* jerks (or at least not encourage them) in In Nomine can continue, fine. Discussions about demons can continue. But no more WW-gamer bashing unless it's specific and has some direct relevance to In Nomine. OKAY, EVERYONE? Or do I have to get out the bullwhip and leather? - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 14:47:29 -0500 (CDT) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> (Fwd) A Mercurians Logo >Given the Mercurians' appearance as the "classic angels", I'd make >their symbol a simple golden ring (perhaps represented in pin form by >a circular pin with the center blacked out so that only the ring is in >gold). > Well, now that Gryph has explained to me just why we need logos for angels, why not just a simple white feathered wing? Reduces well, simple, easy to wrap your mind around. Redneck Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | Marc sponsored the first http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | Chinese buffet restraunt; c/o White Lightning Productions | it was Haagenti who came http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | up with MSG. Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- Celestial folklore http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 15:59:34 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> d666 patches At 12:56 PM -0500 10/2/97, Joshua Knorr wrote: [...] >Stop me if I'm wrong, but it seems to be that the degree of success for a >given task (represented by the check digit) is totally unrelated to the >difficulty of the task/skill of performer (represented by the target >number). That is, you're just as likely to roll a CD of 6 on a TN of 12 (an >incredibly easy task) as on a TN of 2 (well-nigh impossible). Seems to me >like there are/should be greater possibility for greater success as you are >more skilled. Check the FAQ -- the more skilled person is more likely to succeed in the first place. And the GM is encouraged to make the CD reflect the individual! For a couch potato, jumping between two buildings with a CD of 6 may result in him jumping, swaying on the edge, and finally landing on the other roof, skinning his knees but able to scramble up and keep running... An Olympic athlete with CD 6 not only clears the jump, but doesn't even break stride. (And as you say, people with high skill can do more complicated things with the skill modifiers...) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 16:04:18 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Vessel death and 'A Bright/Dark Dream' At 2:52 PM -0400 10/2/97, John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: > One thing that has bugged me about the starting story >is how it doesn't _quite_ match the game rules. That's okay >with me... really it is. But I'd prefer if they matched >precisely. We will not discuss the Song of Possession.... Obviously a high power varient that Marcus learned, or he got a 666 with it. > A scene in particular, while cool, that doesn't >fit is when Charlie is trying to repair his vessel, but >it's too badly damaged. Charlie shows up again not long >later... probably far too short a time to have gone through >Trauma, so I've been trying to think of a way that this >could fit into the game. Body bag. Says so. "I'm going to high-tail it back to my garage and get another body." I think the Pyramid writeup of Charlie includes it too. Now, the fact that he hung around with a body that was about to crumble, that's a different thing. I figure it was probably Will power or something. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #377 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.