From owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Thu Oct 2 17:31:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA03400 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 17:31:18 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id RAA28986 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 17:05:15 -0500 Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 17:05:15 -0500 Message-Id: <199710022205.RAA28986@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #378 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@LISTS.IO.COM Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, October 2 1997 Volume 01 : Number 378 In this digest: Re: IN> Vessel death and 'A Bright/Dark Dream' Re: IN> Vessel death and 'A Bright/Dark Dream' Re: IN> Mark's vision of In Nomine Re: IN> Mark's vision of In Nomine Re: IN> d666 patches Re: IN> Vessel death and 'A Bright/Dark Dream' Re: IN> Lilim and Malakim (fwd) Re: IN> Boo Berries (fluffathon) Re: IN> White Wolf's Games vs. In Nomine IN> The Trouble with Andre (was Re: IN> Demon Playing) Re: IN> Lilim and Malakim (fwd) Re: IN> (Fwd) A Mercurians Logo Re: IN> WW vs. INO and Playing Demons Re: IN> Mercurian Logo IN> Jean vs Vapula IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #373 Re: IN> Lilim and Malakim (fwd) Re: IN> Vessel death and 'A Bright/Dark Dream' IN> Screwtape Re: IN> The Trouble with Andre (was Re: IN> Demon Playing) IN> More Jean Re: IN> Do we need 'things' to play LARP?? IN> Balseraphic Discord : Truly and Absolutely Deluded Re: IN> Vessel death and 'A Bright/Dark Dream' Re: IN> WW vs. INO and Playing Demons ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 15:01:57 -0500 (CDT) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> Vessel death and 'A Bright/Dark Dream' > > One thing that has bugged me about the starting story >is how it doesn't _quite_ match the game rules. That's okay >with me... really it is. But I'd prefer if they matched >precisely. > > A scene in particular, while cool, that doesn't >fit is when Charlie is trying to repair his vessel, but >it's too badly damaged. Charlie shows up again not long >later... probably far too short a time to have gone through >Trauma, so I've been trying to think of a way that this >could fit into the game. In the process I came up with a >cool new 'general' Attunement that could be handed out by >any of the Superiors (especially the more martial ones). > Charlie has two Vessels (or had), so the rest of your post is rather moot. }:-{D I believe the book says that if you can bail from one Vessel to another, you don't get sent back to Heaven/Hell and collect your Trauma. Redneck Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | Marc sponsored the first http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | Chinese buffet restraunt; c/o White Lightning Productions | it was Haagenti who came http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | up with MSG. Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- Celestial folklore http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 15:36:37 -0400 From: Highway Star Subject: Re: IN> Vessel death and 'A Bright/Dark Dream' At 14:52 -0400 10/2/97, John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: > A scene in particular, while cool, that doesn't >fit is when Charlie is trying to repair his vessel, but >it's too badly damaged. Charlie shows up again not long >later... probably far too short a time to have gone through >Trauma, so I've been trying to think of a way that this Well, I like the idea of the attunement but I really didn't see that scene that way. Here's how I imagined it: Charlie fought Turiel (spelling? I can't remember) and killed him, though taking heaps of damage in the meantime. He's not *dead*, obviously, but had the humans shot at (and hit him) with even something as light as a .22, he'd probably be a goner. He's down to 2-3 hit points (out of a probably very high starting amount). He was still alive, but in his condition, didn't really want to go any farther. He thought about trying to heal himself up (with a song of healing) but it seemed like a waste of Essence when he had another body in a body bag back at the garage. So he just abandoned his old body and went to the new (kinda like Marcus did earlier). The reason he didn't come right back, though, was 'cause he had to re-outfit with all his big guns and gear. SeanMike - -- Sean Michael Whipkey, smw4s@virginia.edu Weldon Cooper Center for Public Service, Publications Div. 804/924-4185 (or -4188) voicenet, 804/982-5536 fax http://www.virginia.edu/~cpserv/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 15:51:52 -0400 (EDT) From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Mark's vision of In Nomine In a message dated 10/2/97 12:27:08 PM, you wrote: >> In addition, I see In Nomine as a potentially powerful tool for teaching >> people about good and evil. A good Youth Pastor could, for instance, use it > >Whoah. Brakes on right there. You're opposed to all of this 'cause you >can't _convert_ the unbelievers to your faith with it?!? Listen, this is >a _game_. A game- nothing more, and nothing less. To think that you can >take your morals and force them upon someone else, is totaly abhorrant to >every thing I stand for as a person. I understand your beliefs- I >understand Christianity better than a lot of Christians I've met. But it >is _not_ the role of a GM to convert players to their standards of >good/evil. And it certianlly shoudn't be the intentions of a game line >(_Any_ game line). > >If this isn't what you mean you'd better clarify GOD, NO! I wasn't talking about conversion! Either you don't know enough about the way churches are run, or my churches have all been wimps. A Youth Pastor works with teens *who are already Christians*, at least that has been my experience. If you have experienced something different, I apologize. The "teach a point" idea of roleplaying is for people to explore their own beliefs, not to "force" my beliefs on anyone. And if that is the first assumption you make about my faith, I'm afraid that we owe each other apologies. I'm sorry, on behalf of others who call themselves Christian, that you were treated in such a way that you assume Christianity means that morals are going to be forced upon you. But you made a *huge* assumption about where I was coming from. Mark (Why am I even trying?) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Oct 1997 15:53:47 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Mark's vision of In Nomine Dorothy Bixler wrote, quoting Mark: > > In addition, I see In Nomine as a potentially powerful tool for > > teaching people about good and evil. A good Youth Pastor could, > > for instance, use it > > Whoah. Brakes on right there. You're opposed to all of this 'cause > you can't _convert_ the unbelievers to your faith with it?!? Listen, > this is a _game_. A game- nothing more, and nothing less. To think > that you can take your morals and force them upon someone else, is > totaly abhorrant to every thing I stand for as a person. I > understand your beliefs- I understand Christianity better than a lot of Christians I've met. But it is _not_ the role of a GM to convert > players to their standards of good/evil. And it certianlly shoudn't > be the intentions of a game line (_Any_ game line). > > If this isn't what you mean you'd better clarify ??? Of course, it is Mark's post to clarify, however... I see the word "teaching" in Mark's post. I see nothing about "converting" or "forcing morals" on others. In his next sentence, he talks about the game's use for Youth Pastors. Presumably for them to play with Youth. You may abhore *forcing* morals on people, but it is generally agreed that children need someone to *teach* them morals, and youth pastors are one of the traditional channels for this. And, yes, of course it's "only a game." For millenia, moral teachers have used all sorts of chance-met objects to hang moral lessons on. A game about angels and devils fairly cries out for such use. Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 14:51:14 -0500 (CDT) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> d666 patches >While I think the d666 system is way cool (esp. Interventions), one part of >it has always bugged since the day I got my hot little hands of the In >Nomine rulebook. > >Stop me if I'm wrong, but it seems to be that the degree of success for a >given task (represented by the check digit) is totally unrelated to the >difficulty of the task/skill of performer (represented by the target >number). That is, you're just as likely to roll a CD of 6 on a TN of 12 (an >incredibly easy task) as on a TN of 2 (well-nigh impossible). Seems to me >like there are/should be greater possibility for greater success as you are >more skilled. > You neglect the influence of Luck into any activity. Even the most skilled watchmaker could have the misfortune of working with shoddy parts, and the clumsiest high school wide reciever can haul in that overthrown pass just in time to score a touchdown for his team. Also, the check digit's effects are, more often than not, left to the interpretation of the GM. They can ignore it, they can ham it up, they can do whatever they like. There's no need to add numbers to the system when a little bit of thought will fix any percieved flaw just as well- without complicating a game system with burdensome arcane number-crunching. Redneck Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | Marc sponsored the first http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | Chinese buffet restraunt; c/o White Lightning Productions | it was Haagenti who came http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | up with MSG. Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- Celestial folklore http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 15:09:49 -0500 (CDT) From: Donald G Bixler Subject: Re: IN> Vessel death and 'A Bright/Dark Dream' > Borrowed Time Very nice! I think I'm going to have to borrow your "Borrowed Time". ;'} > |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | Oops da Ogre, also good for those cinematic death speeches mudgb4@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 15:07:16 -0500 (CDT) From: Donald G Bixler Subject: Re: IN> Lilim and Malakim (fwd) > Collar and cuffs, of course. *AHEM* This is all the fault of whoever- > it-was who wanted the Archangel of Archives as Dominatrix... Or maybe > K.K. She's got such a gutter-mind. Sure. He sounds like he could use a good topping to me. ;'} > ( the various Archangels (and lesser angels) after *they* win the War>...) Show them the error of their ways and accept them into the family? > --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor Oops da Ogre, nobody important mudgb4@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 16:10:34 -0400 From: johnk@ascc01.ascc.lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) Subject: Re: IN> Boo Berries (fluffathon) > > Along those lines, I'm struggling madly to find time > >to continue work on a completely non-official IN card game. > >Want to be in it? ;) > > Suuuuurrrrrrreeeeeee.... Remember you said okay... heh, heh, heh. ;) > > Steve probably couldn't afford the licensing fees that Lilith > >wanted... nothing is free, of course! ;) ("Awww, c'mon Stevie, it's > >just a _little_ Geas. Really.") > > Evil Stevie, resist temptation? What Kyrio got into *him*?? O;> I think the real answer is they couldn't get a picture that was simultaneously more powerful-looking and sexier than the Lilim picture. }=) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 15:04:28 -0500 (CDT) From: Donald G Bixler Subject: Re: IN> White Wolf's Games vs. In Nomine > > But who says that the angels are right? Demons can be the heroes too. > > Only with a *huge* revamping of the setting (on which front I say - go for > it!). I'm hoping that that's not necessary, but since it seems that there will not be any change in the current drift of position in the IN supplements, I don't think that it'll happen on its own. > That is true. The one big thing God has going for him is that he runs > Heaven instead of Hell. If you are going to recast demons as heroic, I > think you are going to need to tone down the fire and brimstone awaiting > the damned and replace it with something a little less cruel. Sure, it's not very hard to do and I give a few ideas in another response to you. > This is certainly an interesting take on demonic corruption. But what > does the same Shedim do when he comes across someone brimming with racial > tollerence? Does he also possess that person and try to change *their* > mind by trying to show them that the evil of racism is really just > different? And where does this leave angels in your scheme? Do they just > try to make sure that people hold on to their moral views, whatever those > veiws might be - encouraging the kind persona and the Nazi alike to hold > on to what they believe? Well, this particular shedite would probably think "Good for you.", although the shedim might think that the person doesn't quite understand why someone might think that racism is viable and hates them for that. Therefor, he would try to arrange a meeting of this horse with his previous horse, since they could have some enlightening discussions. This makes the shedim a powerful tool for understanding subjectivity and tolerance. Mind you, this is just one sample demon, other shedims' agendas would vary. As far as the angels go, well they feel that everyone should worship God because he says so and that there is no choice. An example would be a Mercurian who tries to point out how the web of favors and relationships that a person has requires them to do as God says because they owe it and it's the only acceptable choice. Angels say "Do this because you should do this.", demons say "Do what you think you should do." Admittedly, most demons think that people could use a little nudging, but not against their will. Those in Hell are there because they prefer it there, some for creature comforts, some because they believe in the cause (Those in Saminga's realm would likely be the most fanatic, giving all but their last force to the War efforts, some maintaining that last force to house their personality until they can be restored while others sacrifice everything so that the good work can go on.), and others because it beats wandering for eternity and Heaven isn't letting just anybody hang out. Those who don't like any of the options are free to start wandering or working on getting back to Earth. > But there is also the question of how Angels and Demons will deal with > *each other* in such a world. Your nice-guy demon may find himself not > fighting for Hell against Heaven but fighting alongside a bunch of angelic > friends against another gang of allied Angels and Demons. There will be > "nice" and "nasty" factions in each camp who have a lot more in common > with each other than with their celestial brothers. Demons consider the angels to be mindless tools and fools of the ultimate tyrant, but all the demons certainly don't agree with each other. therefore, it's likely that if they humbled God, there might just be another fight among the victors (Hey! Maybe this happened and the current God was the First Rebel against the original...) It would be nice if they managed to set up a near-utopian setting, but even celestials aren't perfect. ;'} > > There are other ways to play IN, > > however, and if you don't have that absolute and the angels aren't > > necessarily nice, the demons just might be the right ones. Or they're > > both in it for themselves and humanity should look out for itself, which > > is a pretty interesting version as well, > > Now *that* would be a bleak game! :) Not if they could do more to hold their own than is currently in the setting, which I would prefer to see anyways. > This kind of outrage makes sense, but are Vampula's plans not also a bit > on the horrible side? If anything, it sounds like this guy should go > independent. At least, unless you are going to give the lords of Hell a > major revamp too. Well, Vapula thinks that it's better to lose a hundred people now in finding an answer to a disease rather than let it claim a dozen each year for eternity. That and he's naturally curious. He'd prefer to suffer now and know tomorrow than to wallow in ignorance. Umabel's wondered about a few of Vapula's projects, but he's always had a good answer when Umabel could gain a moment of his time. I'm not quite sure what the PBEM GMs' take on vapula is, but it's not been too far from my preferred vision so far. > Greg. Donald G. Bixler mudgb4@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 15:14:32 -0500 (CDT) From: Donald G Bixler Subject: IN> The Trouble with Andre (was Re: IN> Demon Playing) > Why do they get snuffed? 'Cause they are trying to be evilevilevil, and > get in the way of the powermongers, who seem them as political rivals, of > the freedom lovers, who seem them as imposing on their freedom, the fun > filled guys, who seem them with as much disgust as some angels, and the > trapped demons, who don't like to be associated with them. Bravo. Good commentary. > >Thinks that he should warn the women of UVA if Seanmike gets > >ANY of Prince Andre's attunements.... > > How do you know I haven't already?! BWAHAHAHAHAHA! Well, in that case... > SeanMike > who, of course, loves humans SO much he doesn't want to really HURT them > unless they upset him...:):):) ...you've just annoyed Andre love. > (also considering for himself a Calabite of Furfur, but should run Night > Music through first...) > Sean Michael Whipkey, smw4s@virginia.edu Oops da Ogre, Furfur's a blast, but I can't stand Andre mudgb4@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 16:18:24 -0400 (EDT) From: "Emily K. Dresner" Subject: Re: IN> Lilim and Malakim (fwd) > (Just as a note -- eventually there *will* be canon published about > whether the Fall happened before or after Eden/Lilith. Promise. I'm > just not sure if it's been kicked into shape enough for me to reveal.) Please? Pretty please? Reveal just a LITTLE? Pleasepleasepleaseplease? I promise I'll be a good little demon and not post anything else screwy for a while. Really. Actually, my data here says "Simultaneous", but a little bit of canon on this could make my job of twisting the universe to my whims a little easier. > >> > MaBarry just suggested `Eli', which is a fun thought...(though > >> > personally, I'm leaning towards Laurence. Partly because they both start > >> I like the suggestion of Eli. I dunno why. Maybe because, ever since my > >> favorite Lilim commented that her greatest fantasy is Laurence wearing, > >> uh, nothing, I've had a hard time taking him really seriously. :) > > I dunno...I picture him in a purple lace teddy, actually. > > Collar and cuffs, of course. *AHEM* This is all the fault of whoever- > it-was who wanted the Archangel of Archives as Dominatrix... Or maybe > K.K. She's got such a gutter-mind. I thought she worked for Kobal? Wouldn't she smear him with chocolate pudding and draw a smiley face on his chest with whipped cream? > > ( the various Archangels (and lesser angels) after *they* win the War>...) > I'd give my left arm to role-play that.... or to at least have a transcript. :) Oh No! In Nomine is losing it's "Entertainment for All Ages" rating! Whatever shall we do! - - Em :) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 16:34:12 -0400 From: johnk@ascc01.ascc.lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) Subject: Re: IN> (Fwd) A Mercurians Logo On Oct 2, 2:47pm, Redneck Gaijin wrote: > Subject: Re: IN> (Fwd) A Mercurians Logo > >Given the Mercurians' appearance as the "classic angels", I'd make > >their symbol a simple golden ring (perhaps represented in pin form by > >a circular pin with the center blacked out so that only the ring is in > >gold). > > > Well, now that Gryph has explained to me just why we need logos for angels, > why not just a simple white feathered wing? Reduces well, simple, easy to > wrap your mind around. There is already going to be a feather-motif piece of jewelry. From the description, it's going to be _gorgeous_. I won't spoil the surprise over the exact design just yet. ;) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 15:24:00 -0500 (CDT) From: Donald G Bixler Subject: Re: IN> WW vs. INO and Playing Demons > >From what I've seen, the demonic player's (players'?) guide ought > to be just as good at making demonic PCs as the angel players guide > will be at making angelic NPCs. And vice versa. In particular, > there are sections on how the various Princes interact with their > Servitors, demonic mindsets, and other useful things that are > pretty demon-specific. A GM can use them as "behind the scenes" for > his NPCs, or as plots for his PCs. Well, that is not the impression that I received from Mr. Edelstein's comments. And if the thing is mostly aimed at running NPCs, shouldn't it be called the Demonic GM's Guide? > While it's unlikely that there's going to ever be a "Big Book of > Shedim Adventures," I personally don't want demons to be totally > shafted or have their only option be Redemption. Playing In Nomine > as "rebels against the nazi angels" is a perfectly valid spin to > put on it, and there should be stuff to match. It is comforting to know that that opinion is present in the creative team; it seems to be forgotten on occasion. > (Sometimes it's a little hard. I identify more with "Archangel of > Archives" than "Demon Princess of Nitpicking"... But I'm trying. Well, I'd be perfectly willing to help. After all, I'm already dumb enough to work for SJG sans paycheck. ;'} (Just kidding Kira and SJ, it's an honor to help a game I like!) > Very trying. "Try it, you'll like it!" > };> ) Hmm... A servant of Haagi? It couldn't be the hyperactive spider himself, since he would surely have more than two chins... > --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor Donald G. Bixler, who'd even be willing to stay vaguely near canon mudgb4@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 15:45:22 -0500 (CDT) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> Mercurian Logo >On Thu, 2 Oct 1997 13:11:11 -0500 (CDT), Martin Leslie Leuschen > wrote: > >>An open hand? (Presumably extended in friendship.) >>A smile? >>A happy face with wings? >>A cup? (With light rays streaming out of it.) >>A stick-person? >>A musical note? (Obviously later picked up by the humans...) > >Adding to this brainstorming, how about a quarter note with the "flag" >wing-shaped, and the "ball" a smiling face? A quarter note doesn't have a flag, just a staff, like: ./ You're thinking of an eighth note, as so: ./~ BTW, people, remember that these designs, as I understand them, are going to end up VERY VERY small. You don't want high detail, you want a simple shape whose image correlates with the subject you're trying to identify. I'd rather not attend a roleplay and then have to pull out my reading glasses to make out the smiley face on the Mercurian's pin. ^_- Redneck Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | Marc sponsored the first http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | Chinese buffet restraunt; c/o White Lightning Productions | it was Haagenti who came http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | up with MSG. Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- Celestial folklore http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 14:16:08 -0400 From: "bruce dykes" Subject: IN> Jean vs Vapula Personally, I think the Words for Jean and Vapula are simply too narrow. Jean's Word *should* be Science. Humans learning the ways, rules, and mechanics of the Universe as The Big Guy(tm) wrote them through rational, methodical inquiry. Vapula's Word should be Mad Science. His is the job of producing ambiguous and anomalous results in legitimate scientific experiments, encouraging funding and inquiry into pseudoscience, *really* alternative medicine, the cosmetics industry, etc. I'm basing this interpretation on "The Screwtape Letters", in letter VII, Screwtape writes to Wormwood: "I have great hopes that we shall learn in due time how to emotionalise and mythologise their science to such an extent that what is...a belief in us will creep in while the humen mind remains closed to belief in the Enemy...If once we can produce our perfect work - the Materialist Magician, the man, not using, but veritably worshipping, what he vaguely calls "Forces" while denying the existence of "spirits" - then the end of the war will be in sight." Once I finish the book, I'll be doing a writeup of Screwtape, and possibly some of the other demons mentioned in the Letters. I'v currently got him pegged as a Balseraph of Baal, but he does have a good idea of how Kronos, Malphas, Nybbas, and Vapula (as the Prince of Pseudoscience) fits into the long term strategy of The War. he is probably Baal's most valuable and dangerous asset. He could also owe fealt to Asmodeus, and was acting in a professional and proactive capacity when writing to his nephew. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 16:32:43 -0400 From: "bruce dykes" Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #373 > > Date: Wed, 01 Oct 97 17:18 EDT > From: Walter Milliken > Subject: Re: IN> White Wolf's Games vs. In Nomine > > >> These are > >> the "isn't it cool to be evil" types that make me wish I were a Malakim of > >> Michael and could smite them with a Bloody Great Axe {tm}. > > > >In Nomine seems to be directly targeted at such people. I mean, why else > >play a demon unless you think it would be fun to play someone evil? > > Demons aren't *necessarily* evil, though they are nearly always > seriously selfish, and often are outright evil. The ones who aren't can > be interesting characters, though -- look at some of the demon NPCs in > Night Music, for example. Or Marcus, who is sometimes a sympathetic > character, even is he is also sometimes a real s.o.b. > > - ---Walter > > Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 15:05:20 -0700 (PDT) > From: nightgaunt@earthlink.net (Alexander Shearer) > Subject: IN> On playing demons > > The recent burst of WW/IN discussion prompts me to ask this: > > How do y'all deal well with playing demons? I've considered it, but > looking at each option, I just don't like them. More to the point, I just > don't want to spend my free time pretending to screw people over left and > right. Obviously, I don't have to (and I'd also have to be /playing/ IN to > have that choice, but school prevails), but I'm curious about this. Is this > a problem for anyone else? > That said, I'm not trying to rag on people who do play demons. > Hmmm...I might try playing a Lilim sometime, should I ever get the chance. I > can deal with people digging their own holes... > > > Alexander Shearer > nightgaunt@earthlink.net > gaunt@uclink4.berkeley.edu One aspect you might want to consider is allowing players to play demons on the verge of redemption, or angels on the verge of falling. When I do my IN Callahan's, there'll be plenty of room for demons who seek redemption. Another point that needs to be well defined in your campaign is the ultimate goal of each side in the War. Once you have that in mind, you can see how to suborn demons to the cause, and their play and use in your campaign made more palatable. Remember, even if you're running an angelic campaign, the Celestial Opposition are still characters in their own right with their own loayalties and agendae. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 17:21:10 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Lilim and Malakim (fwd) At 3:07 PM -0500 10/2/97, Donald G Bixler wrote: >> Collar and cuffs, of course. *AHEM* This is all the fault of whoever- >> it-was who wanted the Archangel of Archives as Dominatrix... Or maybe >> K.K. She's got such a gutter-mind. > >Sure. He sounds like he could use a good topping to me. ;'} Chocolate, and whipped cream, and some nuts and... [K.K., get *OFF* the keyboard this instant! Down, girl, down!] >> (> the various Archangels (and lesser angels) after *they* win the War>...) > >Show them the error of their ways and accept them into the family? Yeah, but what do you do with the Malakim then? (Assuming that we're not using the already-a-demon versions...) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 17:20:21 -0400 From: johnk@ascc01.ascc.lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) Subject: Re: IN> Vessel death and 'A Bright/Dark Dream' > Charlie has two Vessels (or had), so the rest of your post is rather moot. }:-{D > > I believe the book says that if you can bail from one Vessel to another, you > don't get sent back to Heaven/Hell and collect your Trauma. That's the problem. If his vessel was too damaged to survive, why was he still conscious? What let him stay awake and make a _conscious_ decision to switch vessels? If we have to put it into game terms, he had some edge that let him do that, and that is what my proposed Attunement covers. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 17:46:05 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Screwtape At 2:16 PM -0400 10/2/97, bruce dykes wrote: >Once I finish the book, I'll be doing a writeup of Screwtape, and possibly >some of the other demons mentioned in the Letters. You might want to drop by http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/articles/INChar/Demons/Balseraph.Screwtape.html and see if that's close to what you had in mind... (I'm perfectly happy to archive six or seven different versions, mind, if they're all good.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 17:19:02 -0400 From: Highway Star Subject: Re: IN> The Trouble with Andre (was Re: IN> Demon Playing) At 15:14 -0500 10/2/97, Donald G Bixler wrote: >> who, of course, loves humans SO much he doesn't want to really HURT them >> unless they upset him...:):):) > >...you've just annoyed Andre love. > I don't remember seeing anywhere in the IN book that Andre's lust had to HURT someone. At least, physically speaking. Of course, it's showed in Night Music how Andre hurt Lauren, but she's someone "special" to him. It's always seemed to me that an Impudite of Andre would avoid hurting humans, if not just to get more essence out of them later. Don't Impudites take dissonance for hurting humans, or is it just for killing them? A servitor of Andre must have loads of fun at fraternity keg parties... SeanMike - -- Sean Michael Whipkey, smw4s@virginia.edu Weldon Cooper Center for Public Service, Publications Div. 804/924-4185 (or -4188) voicenet, 804/982-5536 fax http://www.virginia.edu/~cpserv/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Oct 97 17:14 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: IN> More Jean >> > Besides..Jean's stuff always works, what with that bookshelf...he >> >CAN'T make mistakes. And as history shows well, the really NEAT things >> >usually come about from mistakes... >> Jean would probably consider that a rather peculiar human conceit. >> "Only the incompetent must discover things by accident." Vapula relies > He probably would, at that. I just keep running up against the >fact that pretty much ANYONE could be as good as Jean if they had his >bookshelf. I don't think so -- there's a big difference between having a database with all the rules of the universe (and maybe even all possible gadgets), and being able to use it effectively. If you haven't read David Brin's "Uplift" books, you should -- there's a good example in there. The Library Institute contains the sum total of *millions* of years of knowledge from some huge number of species. Most Galactics in the books believe that it's impossible to invent something that's not already found in the Library. So they don't bother, they just have Library specialists find what they need. Sort of like Jean's bookshelf, only maybe not quite as big. But being able to look things up doesn't mean they look up the *right* things, or use them intelligently. My view is that Yves put Jean in charge of all that knowledge for a reason -- that Jean was the best person to find the right things in there, at the right time. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Oct 97 17:28 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Do we need 'things' to play LARP?? > The point is: I'm not fond of *forcing* people to buy something just to play >a session of LARP... You see, *every* player would have to have one - no last >minute entries, no 'let me just play once to see what is it'... I would think you could have some to loan/rent to people who didn't have them. Isn't that what those laser-tag places do? - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 22:10:41 +0100 (BST) From: maya@tcp.co.uk (GR Cogman) Subject: IN> Balseraphic Discord : Truly and Absolutely Deluded A passing idea for a Discord common to Balseraphs: TRULY AND ABSOLUTELY DELUDED The victim holds some belief which is not only untrue, it is grossly and absolutely inaccurate, and liable to cause him severe trouble should it come up in his everyday life. He believes this lie completely, and considers it completely true. Typical samples might include: "Yeah, I'm the best. I could take on Laurence sword to sword and have him begging for mercy!" "Okay, so I may be a Balseraph of Belial, but I know that if we ever _met_ Gabriel wouldn't be able to deny my attraction. She's _meant_ for me. She'd just go head over heels." "Asmodeus isn't such a bad guy really. He gives people second chances if they're sincere about it." "There's this secret society of Malakim who are really on our side. Next time you see one, give him this codeword, and if he replies, "Demon," then you'll know he's really on our side.." - --- Maya, Elohim of Eli in service to Blandine maya@tcp.co.uk - -- "There are those who say that wizards are subject to temptations and addictions beyond the understanding of ordinary men: the addiction to shape-changing, or to meditation under the influence of certain herbs and conditions of the stars; the obsession with knowledge, and the development of power. Yet this is not so. Temptation is temptation, obsession is obsession, and choice is choice." - Isar Chelladan, Precepts of Wizardry. -- "Dog Wizard", Barbara Hambly. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 17:22:20 -0400 From: johnk@ascc01.ascc.lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) Subject: Re: IN> Vessel death and 'A Bright/Dark Dream' > I like the idea of the attunement but I really didn't see that scene that way. > > Here's how I imagined it: > > Charlie fought Turiel (spelling? I can't remember) and killed him, though > taking heaps of damage in the meantime. He's not *dead*, obviously, but > had the humans shot at (and hit him) with even something as light as a .22, > he'd probably be a goner. He's down to 2-3 hit points (out of a probably > very high starting amount). > > He was still alive, but in his condition, didn't really want to go any > farther. He thought about trying to heal himself up (with a song of > healing) but it seemed like a waste of Essence when he had another body in > a body bag back at the garage. So he just abandoned his old body and went > to the new (kinda like Marcus did earlier). His body was describe as 'dead meat' and so it was. If he had just switched vessels, it would have vanished. It would still be damaged, yes, but who in their right mind would abandon a good vessel that just needed some healing? - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 17:44:09 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> WW vs. INO and Playing Demons At 3:24 PM -0500 10/2/97, Donald G Bixler wrote: >> >From what I've seen, the demonic player's (players'?) guide ought >> to be just as good at making demonic PCs as the angel players guide >> will be at making angelic NPCs. And vice versa. In particular, >> there are sections on how the various Princes interact with their >> Servitors, demonic mindsets, and other useful things that are >> pretty demon-specific. A GM can use them as "behind the scenes" for >> his NPCs, or as plots for his PCs. > >Well, that is not the impression that I received from Mr. Edelstein's >comments. It all depends on one's personal slant on reading the thing. Silly of him to say so, though. I know what he's written... > And if the thing is mostly aimed at running NPCs, shouldn't >it be called the Demonic GM's Guide? Nah, nah, nah, that's not what I mean. I mean it ought to be useful for people who want to play demons as much as for GMs who want to figure out their demonic NPCs. And the angelic version should be just the same -- angelic PCs, or NPCs, or enemy NPCs... At the very highest end of the brightness knob (I didn't create the concept, IIRC, I just stole it for my own...), one would need the demonic guide to create a character to send Renegade, IMO. So it *has* to have good "play the demon" stuff in it. >> While it's unlikely that there's going to ever be a "Big Book of >> Shedim Adventures," I personally don't want demons to be totally >> shafted or have their only option be Redemption. Playing In Nomine >> as "rebels against the nazi angels" is a perfectly valid spin to >> put on it, and there should be stuff to match. > >It is comforting to know that that opinion is present in the creative >team; it seems to be forgotten on occasion. It's easy to do, for various reasons. Though one does generally hope that the adventures can be run with both or either... >> (Sometimes it's a little hard. I identify more with "Archangel of >> Archives" than "Demon Princess of Nitpicking"... But I'm trying. > >Well, I'd be perfectly willing to help. After all, I'm already dumb >enough to work for SJG sans paycheck. ;'} (Just kidding Kira and SJ, >it's an honor to help a game I like!) Keep posting. It will remind us. >> Very trying. > >"Try it, you'll like it!" > >> };> ) > >Hmm... A servant of Haagi? It couldn't be the hyperactive spider >himself, since he would surely have more than two chins... Parenthetical Lilim smiley, that's what it is. >> --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor >Donald G. Bixler, who'd even be willing to stay vaguely near canon Just so long as Vapula didn't build the Cannon... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #378 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.