From owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Fri Oct 3 00:24:17 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA12112 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 00:24:16 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id AAA21188 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 00:04:24 -0500 Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 00:04:24 -0500 Message-Id: <199710030504.AAA21188@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #379 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@LISTS.IO.COM Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Friday, October 3 1997 Volume 01 : Number 379 In this digest: Re: IN> In Nomine Live-Action Re: IN> Short Jean Thought Re: IN> The Trouble with Andre (was Re: IN> Demon Playing) Re: IN> (Fwd) A Mercurians Logo Re: IN> Lilim and Malakim (fwd) Re: IN> d666 patches Re: IN> (Fwd) A Mercurians Logo Re: IN> (Fwd) A Mercurians Logo Re: IN> White Wolf's Games vs. In Nomine IN> Jordi's trip Re: IN> (Fwd) A Mercurians Logo Re: IN> Mercurian Logo Re: IN> Mark's vision of In Nomine Re: IN> Do we need 'things' to play LARP?? IN> WW vs. IN Re: IN> (Fwd) A Mercurians Logo Re: IN> d666 patches Re: IN> On playing demons Re: IN> On playing demons Re: IN> On playing demons Re: Re: IN> White Wolf's Games vs. In Nomine Re: IN> Vessel death and 'A Bright/Dark Dream' Re: IN> (Fwd) A Mercurians Logo Re: IN> WW vs. INO and Playing Demons Re: IN> Do we need 'things' to play LARP?? Re: IN> On playing demons Re: IN>Arch Beth's Offer; was White Wolf's Games vs. In Nomine IN> Demonic Morality Re: IN> White Wolf's Games vs. In Nomine Re: IN> White Wolf's Games vs. In Nomine Re: IN> Vessel death and 'A Bright/Dark Dream' Re: Re: IN> White Wolf's Games vs. In Nomine Re: IN> Vessel death and 'A Bright/Dark Dream' Re: IN> In Nomine Live-Action Re: IN> Vessel death and 'A Bright/Dark Dream' Re: IN> On playing demons ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 02 Oct 97 17:21 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Live-Action >> (Hmmm... there *isn't* a Lilith picture >> in the basic IN book, is there? If I were her, I'd be annoyed that I >> was the only Superior who didn't get one....) > > Steve probably couldn't afford the licensing fees that Lilith >wanted... nothing is free, of course! ;) ("Awww, c'mon Stevie, it's >just a _little_ Geas. Really.") I don't know... given the general popularity of Lilim in the game, I suspect Lilith would find it a shrewd marketing move to have her picture available -- lots of people would be wanting favors from her.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Oct 97 17:31 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Short Jean Thought [Martin:] >Jean knows the Secrets of the Symphony. (As does Yves, who taught him.) >This translates as *theoretical*, *scientific* (or perhaps intuitive) >understanding. > >This is not necessarily *technological* understanding. This is more or less my viewpoint, as well, though there may be a substantial number of hints in there about implementation. >Otherwise, Jeans already knows how to make any gadget than *can* be made, >(In GURPS terms, he's TL infinity) which requires all sorts of dodgy >explanations about why he doesn't just nuke Hell. It's also possible that the theories say that he *can't* build something to nuke Hell. Or that anything that could would also have lots of undesirable side effects (like blowing away the Earth in the process). Just because you know how to make a planetbuster bomb doesn't mean you want to use it.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 16:59:07 -0500 (CDT) From: Donald G Bixler Subject: Re: IN> The Trouble with Andre (was Re: IN> Demon Playing) > I don't remember seeing anywhere in the IN book that Andre's lust had to > HURT someone. Nope, but it's dissonant to actually care for any humans. It was mostly a joke, anyways. I guess it didn't go very well. > It's always seemed to me that an Impudite of Andre would avoid hurting > humans, if not just to get more essence out of them later. Don't Impudites > take dissonance for hurting humans, or is it just for killing them? Just killing, whereas Mercurians can't be violent except to demons. That seems to cover chairs and walls as well as hitting a human. > A servitor of Andre must have loads of fun at fraternity keg parties... Indeed. > SeanMike Oops da Ogre, "Toga! Toga! Toga!" mudgb4@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Oct 1997 16:40:21 -0500 From: tom timberlake Subject: Re: IN> (Fwd) A Mercurians Logo John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: > Anyway, these logos are supposed to be symbols the Choirs use themselves, > perhaps as a tasteful pin or pendant for recognition purposes, or to mark > property, or to warn others -- we're not sure of all the gameworld uses, > We have six designs that rock. We're stuck on one, though -- Mercurians, > Friends of Man. We need some ideas for a simple figure or logo that just > jumps up and says, "Mercurians." And we need it soon. Today would be nice. > > I know that this is a words-only medium, but if you can't describe it in > words, it's probably too complicated for us, anyway. How about a hand extended from a fluffy cloud's bottom edge [showing the whole cloud is unnecessary], grasping a hand extending up [giving mankind a helping hand]? tom timberlake tomtimb[at]ionet[dot]net ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 17:03:52 -0500 (CDT) From: Donald G Bixler Subject: Re: IN> Lilim and Malakim (fwd) > >Sure. He sounds like he could use a good topping to me. ;'} > > Chocolate, and whipped cream, and some nuts and... And that too... > [K.K., get *OFF* the keyboard this instant! Down, girl, down!] Aww, poor thing. Her... Whoa, gotta watch out for Lilim with Charisma (Cute) +3 > >Show them the error of their ways and accept them into the family? > > Yeah, but what do you do with the Malakim then? (Assuming that > we're not using the already-a-demon versions...) Hmm... Good question. Provided that Vapula (and Jean, if he could admit defeat and being wrong, which I don't see) couldn't dig up some solution for those annoying demon-smiting instincts, perhaps a nice "nature preserve" place with very beefy security guards? > --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor Oops da Ogre, otherwise, furniture, I suppose mudgb4@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 15:31:17 -0700 (PDT) From: lugaid@seanet.com Subject: Re: IN> d666 patches On 1997-10-02 in_nomine-l@lists.io.com said to lugaid@seanet.com >Check the FAQ -- the more skilled person is more likely to succeed >in the first place. a) where is the faq? b) where is the errata? Slan agus Beannachtai, Lugaid MacRobert DCLXVI : Roman numeral of the Beast. Net-Tamer V 1.08X - Test Drive ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 15:30:56 -0700 (PDT) From: lugaid@seanet.com Subject: Re: IN> (Fwd) A Mercurians Logo On 1997-10-02 in_nomine-l@lists.io.com said to lugaid@seanet.com >What about a winged heart? It strikes me as a symbol of friendship >('Friends of Man') and it has the classic angel wings too... great minds and all that... ;) Slan agus Beannachtai, Lugaid MacRobert The hawks have left. The crows are left. Net-Tamer V 1.08X - Test Drive ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 15:30:49 -0700 (PDT) From: lugaid@seanet.com Subject: Re: IN> (Fwd) A Mercurians Logo On 1997-10-02 in_nomine-l@lists.io.com said to lugaid@seanet.com >We have six designs that rock. We're stuck on one, though -- >Mercurians, Friends of Man. We need some ideas for a simple figure >or logo that just jumps up and says, "Mercurians." And we need it >soon. Today would be nice. how about a heart-shape, maybe with wings, to make it angelic? Slan agus Beannachtai, Lugaid MacRobert Okay, who put a "stop payment" on my reality check? Net-Tamer V 1.08X - Test Drive ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 15:31:10 -0700 (PDT) From: lugaid@seanet.com Subject: Re: IN> White Wolf's Games vs. In Nomine On 1997-10-02 in_nomine-l@lists.io.com said to lugaid@seanet.com >Whoa. This is getting off topic. Calm the flaming. Discussing ways >to *avoid* jerks (or at least not encourage them) in In Nomine can >continue, fine. Discussions about demons can continue. But no more >WW-gamer bashing unless it's specific and has some direct relevance >to In Nomine. OKAY, EVERYONE? >Or do I have to get out the bullwhip and leather? are you trying to discourage or encourage us? talk about yer mixed messages... ;) Slan agus Beannachtai, Lugaid MacRobert I am Jesus of Borg. Blessed are they who are assimilated. Net-Tamer V 1.08X - Test Drive ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 08:37:59 GMT+10 From: "Leath Sheales" <938269@wrpc.riv.csu.edu.au> Subject: IN> Jordi's trip Sam Kington wrote: >Does anyone see parallels with Gabriel (The Prophecy version)? Both >seem to have a pretty similar disdain for humans, albeit for different >reasons. How close is Jordi to falling, anyway? What if pollution, >global warming, destruction of native habitats etc. is actually being >encouraged by Hell to make him trip? Considering his dissonance conditions "Do not value human life above animal life" and as a Kyriotate to take care of his hosts (presuming he doesn't bother to create a vessel), I don't think he's even BEGUN to fall (or even trip). He hasn't gone against his Word in any way. Pollution etc. may serve to weaken him, but they're not making him betray himself. When he starts slaughtering animals and helping humans, then he'll be close to falling. Leath. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 18:20:29 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> (Fwd) A Mercurians Logo > We have six designs that rock. We're stuck on one, though -- Mercurians, > Friends of Man. We need some ideas for a simple figure or logo that just > jumps up and says, "Mercurians." And we need it soon. Today would be nice. First of all, yay! I hope the Kyrio pin is good...I'd hate to buy outside the Choir ;-) Also, what about Superior pins? Assuming they are roughly the size of the White Wolf clan pins, one on each side of a collar would look cool... Mercurians. Maybe a profile shot, in a pose like the angel is swan-diving upward? A smiling face with a halo works, too - an earring like the Mercurian picture would make it even better. Or maybe something like the picture (presumably of Nicole) on pg 9. Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com "Go to hell!" "Heaven, heaven. At least get the zip code right." - The Prophecy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Oct 1997 22:35:23 GMT From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: Re: IN> Mercurian Logo On Thu, 2 Oct 1997 15:45:22 -0500 (CDT), redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) wrote: >>Adding to this brainstorming, how about a quarter note with the "flag" >>wing-shaped, and the "ball" a smiling face? > >A quarter note doesn't have a flag, just a staff, like: ./ > >You're thinking of an eighth note, as so: ./~ You're quite right, thank you. >I'd rather not attend a roleplay and then have to pull out my reading >glasses to make out the smiley face on the Mercurian's pin. ^_- I was thinking of a fairly pudgy eighth note, which I can't really ascii-draw. The face could be in profile making it easier to recognize (I wasn't thinking of a smiley-face, just a smiling face), with a short stalk to a biggish wing. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 17:41:10 -0500 (CDT) From: Dorothy Bixler Subject: Re: IN> Mark's vision of In Nomine > > GOD, NO! I wasn't talking about conversion! Either you don't know enough > about the way churches are run, or my churches have all been wimps. A Youth > Pastor works with teens *who are already Christians*, at least that has been > my experience. If you have experienced something different, I apologize. > The "teach a point" idea of roleplaying is for people to explore their own > beliefs, not to "force" my beliefs on anyone. I conceed your point. I'm not trying to insult your church. But... (always seems to be a but here doesn't there...) I can see this getting out of hand. What happens when said youth chooses (in game terms) that he feels the diabolic view is right. I don't see many Youth Pastors as being too open to that prospect. And choosing the other view is (or at least- is as written) acceptable. (Of course, not everyone in said youth group is by rule christian- soem could be there only because their parents make them. Which was my experience growing up, the same for several of my friends, but that's kinda irrelevant right now. > Mark (Why am I even trying?) > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ does that mean you think I won't listen to what you have to say? *Dorothy Michelle Bixler * mudmh10@ecom.ecn.bgu.edu* "Gidget, have you been laying with the Horned One again?" -MST3K's Mike from "The Thing the Couldn't Die" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Oct 1997 22:47:13 GMT From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: Re: IN> Do we need 'things' to play LARP?? On Thu, 02 Oct 1997 11:05:32 -0300, Andre Ribeiro wrote: > The point is: I'm not fond of *forcing* people to buy something just to play >a session of LARP... You see, *every* player would have to have one - no last >minute entries, no 'let me just play once to see what is it'... Here you go: take your d666, put them in a zip-lock bag, puff it up so the bag has room for the dice to shake, and seal it. Shake it in your hand, and let the dice fall on your flat palm. If the GM is feeling generous he could loan the zip-lock bags and dice. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 09:02:52 GMT+10 From: "Leath Sheales" <938269@wrpc.riv.csu.edu.au> Subject: IN> WW vs. IN Dear Guys and Gals of the List, Speaking personally (and I would hope some people would agree), could we please move this "WW sucks/ No it doesn't" argument off the list and into private e-mail for those who wish to continue it. Basically the argument has gone from straight all-out WW bashing with no purpose to (after a few comments from others) WW bashing/ defence with explanations to support you view, but still with no purpose to the IN world. I can probably expect a few flames for this post, but I'm getting tired of reading the same arguments over and over again. Thanks. Leath. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 17:50:42 -0500 (CDT) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> (Fwd) A Mercurians Logo >On Oct 2, 2:47pm, Redneck Gaijin wrote: >> > >> Well, now that Gryph has explained to me just why we need logos for angels, >> why not just a simple white feathered wing? Reduces well, simple, easy to >> wrap your mind around. > > There is already going to be a feather-motif piece of >jewelry. From the description, it's going to be _gorgeous_. I >won't spoil the surprise over the exact design just yet. ;) Not a lone feather, a wing, something like, oh... ----------------------------------- / ) / / / / | ------------------) | / | / | -------------------) | / | / | ------------------) | / | / | / \ / \ / ---------------- (pardon my ASCII, but you should get the idea- a white fluffy wing, with feather-like highlights but nothing too detailed.) Redneck Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | Marc sponsored the first http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | Chinese buffet restraunt; c/o White Lightning Productions | it was Haagenti who came http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | up with MSG. Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- Celestial folklore http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 18:23:02 -0500 (CDT) From: Donald G Bixler Subject: Re: IN> d666 patches > a) where is the faq? Argh! I can't remember the exact URL. Look for it under http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine > b) where is the errata? See above. > Slan agus Beannachtai, > Lugaid MacRobert Oops da Ogre, Assistant Online Editor for the IN pages and all that mudgb4@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu (personal) umabel@pyramid.sjgames.com (for email regarding the IN web pages) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Oct 97 19:20 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> On playing demons >> though there is apparently a feeling in >> Hell that one way to win the War is to send all of humanity to Hell. >> > And that is the *huge* problem with picturing demons as anything other >than blacker than pitch. They are collaborating with a scheme whereby >humans are sent to Hell to be tortured for all eternity. Uh, no. Some (maybe the majority of) humans in Hell are tortured, but by no means all of them. They're all *used*, but that's an entirely different thing from being tortured. Read the sections on Hell. Shal-Mari isn't too bad -- sort of like Las Vegas, only tackier. Nybbas' domain isn't all that bad, either. I certainly wouldn't want to be *anywhere* in the IN Hell, but it's not as bad as you're painting it. > The most >delightful demon makes Hitler look like Barney. You can certainly interpret things that way, but it's quite clearly not canon -- it's explicitly stated somewhere that the worst humans are worse than the worst demons (except maybe Balseraphs). - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Oct 97 19:00 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> On playing demons > As written, the demons seem like they'll be spending a notable > portion of their time corrupting people, and they'll do it with ease. The > former is logical, the latter is what gets me. I could see playing a demon > who convinces a person to listen to their worse judgement...but IN demons > don't seem to operate that way. They don't need to have the human's help to > get them doing bad stuff. I don't think it's as easy as you make out. Yes, demons can impose their resonances on humans fairly easily. And the pathetic Will of typical humans means they won't usually resist. *Usually*.... But... the Bands that do this generally suffer a dissonance backlash if their resonance is resisted. (Yes, they can sometimes divert it, but there are often other problems with doing this.) So it's not that ease of resistance that keeps demons from using their resonance successfully -- it's the fact that every time they use their resonance (especially on somone they don't know), they court dissonance. Dissonance is a pain, and difficult to get rid of. Being selfish, demons should see the easier path is often to *not* use one's resonance, but use more indirect means to a goal. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 19:05:01 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> On playing demons > Actually, I'd just like to point out that that's not how Hell _has_ to > run. I know many people (but then again I'm an evil scientist, bane of > most theologians) who would voluntarily donate their essence to Vapula's > studies and help testing. Likewise, Shal-Mari seems a fairly nice place > and even Sheol might be enjoyable, for a pyromaniac. And who says that > heaven's any better? Almost no human souls stay at the level that PC > angels can reach, and those are obviously being kept around because > they, as Saints and Bodhisattvistas, are useful to Heaven's plans. In fact, Heaven might be a great deal worse, especially if you're playing a Satan's Heroes game ("I know nothink!"). I have been toying with the idea that God is trying to absorb the Forces from humans into Himself, destroying their identity. In the mean time, he's just sucking on their essence. Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com "Go to hell!" "Heaven, heaven. At least get the zip code right." - The Prophecy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 19:14:23 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: Re: IN> White Wolf's Games vs. In Nomine > Whoa. This is getting off topic. Calm the flaming. Discussing ways > to *avoid* jerks (or at least not encourage them) in In Nomine can > continue, fine. Discussions about demons can continue. But no more > WW-gamer bashing unless it's specific and has some direct relevance > to In Nomine. OKAY, EVERYONE? Thank you for saying it - I was considering it. I'd extend it to the Youth Pastor and whoever nearly accused him of using the game for it's conversion value - it's getting borderline. Keep it calm... > Or do I have to get out the bullwhip and leather? That could be interesting, anyway... Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com "Go to hell!" "Heaven, heaven. At least get the zip code right." - The Prophecy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 18:17:10 -0500 (CDT) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> Vessel death and 'A Bright/Dark Dream' >> Charlie has two Vessels (or had), so the rest of your post is rather moot. >}:-{D >> >> I believe the book says that if you can bail from one Vessel to another, you >> don't get sent back to Heaven/Hell and collect your Trauma. > > That's the problem. If his vessel was too damaged to >survive, why was he still conscious? What let him stay awake >and make a _conscious_ decision to switch vessels? If we have >to put it into game terms, he had some edge that let him do >that, and that is what my proposed Attunement covers. > From what I'm looking at here, Charlie's Vessel was down to just a couple hits. He failed his Song of Corporeal Healing, leaving his vessel too badly beat up for any practical purpose... and decided that, instead of trying to work the beat-up vessel back to his home and let it heal up, he'd just ditch the worthless body and use his back-up vessel, presumably stowed in a Body Bag as mentioned before. Charlie -could- -possibly- have salvaged the vessel, but it would have been easier to just make a new one, so he abandoned it. Redneck Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | Marc sponsored the first http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | Chinese buffet restraunt; c/o White Lightning Productions | it was Haagenti who came http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | up with MSG. Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- Celestial folklore http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 16:20:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Knop Subject: Re: IN> (Fwd) A Mercurians Logo > We have six designs that rock. We're stuck on one, though -- Mercurians, > Friends of Man. We need some ideas for a simple figure or logo that just > jumps up and says, "Mercurians." And we need it soon. Today would be nice. Hmmm... I would think you could find an appropriate symbol next to any restroom :) - -Rob ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 18:35:24 -0500 (CDT) From: Donald G Bixler Subject: Re: IN> WW vs. INO and Playing Demons > >Well, that is not the impression that I received from Mr. Edelstein's > >comments. > > It all depends on one's personal slant on reading the thing. Silly > of him to say so, though. I know what he's written... That's why I said that was the impression that I received. I'm not quite sure how to parse those last two lines, though. I've been awaiting further illumination of the post from Mr. Edelstein himself, though, on his post regarding the DPG. > Nah, nah, nah, that's not what I mean. I mean it ought to be useful > for people who want to play demons as much as for GMs who want to > figure out their demonic NPCs. And the angelic version should be > just the same -- angelic PCs, or NPCs, or enemy NPCs... Okay, I see. It seemed that he was saying it was mostly aimed at demonic NPCs... > At the very highest end of the brightness knob (I didn't create the > concept, IIRC, I just stole it for my own...), one would need > the demonic guide to create a character to send Renegade, IMO. > So it *has* to have good "play the demon" stuff in it. Of course, the stuff for a good Renegade isn't the same as the stuff for a "god is a dictator" setup. Or at least isn't usually... > >Well, I'd be perfectly willing to help. After all, I'm already dumb > >enough to work for SJG sans paycheck. ;'} (Just kidding Kira and SJ, > >it's an honor to help a game I like!) > > Keep posting. It will remind us. *nod* Although it'd be nicer if this stuff could be handled prior to the printing, which I can't exactly help with... > Parenthetical Lilim smiley, that's what it is. Yeah, but I couldn't resist. Haagenti is by far the Superior I'm most surprised to like making seritors for. (The quote by him in Beleth's bit in "The Marches" cracked me up.) > >Donald G. Bixler, who'd even be willing to stay vaguely near canon > > Just so long as Vapula didn't build the Cannon... *checks spelling real quick* Now, now, please don't insult my boss that way, you might hurt his feelings. ;'} > --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor Donald G. Bixler, who has trouble with creating interesting angels who aren't Outcast, but has demon ideas by the infernal bucketful mudgb4@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 21:14:35 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> Do we need 'things' to play LARP?? > Here you go: take your d666, put them in a zip-lock bag, puff it > up so the bag has room for the dice to shake, and seal it. Shake > it in your hand, and let the dice fall on your flat palm. If the > GM is feeling generous he could loan the zip-lock bags and dice. I'd recommend a hard container rather than this - your palm isn't entirely flat, and the dice may not land in your palm. Like I said earlier, a baby-food bottle with three mini-d6 works well. Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com "Go to hell!" "Heaven, heaven. At least get the zip code right." - The Prophecy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 18:26:11 -0700 (PDT) From: nightgaunt@earthlink.net (Alexander Shearer) Subject: Re: IN> On playing demons [A lot of snippage. Text liposuction, if you will.] >You don't have to screw people over -- though it's probably typical >enough with demon groups -- but demons probably do have to be >ruthless about their goals. If they have to push a toddler's carriage >into traffic for some reason, most demons will do it. I view most >demons (with the exception of Shedim) as utterly *a*moral, so focused >on their own self that nobody else is quite real, nobody else matters. >They can do whatever they *want*. (Sometimes that's evil, sometimes >it's merely cold.) This brings to mind the Sabbat game I ran lo those many years ago (2-3). They were basically selfish/amoral. After a while, I just got sick of the straight line solutions this produced (it's really amazing how much easier tasks can become when you can just kill people). >Shedim are squicky, squicky, squicky. They give demons a bad name. > Joy. Well, they certainly make me a little ill. I just look at them and I can't think of anything even moderately entertaining about playing one. > >> That said, I'm not trying to rag on people who do play demons. >>Hmmm...I might try playing a Lilim sometime, should I ever get the chance. I >>can deal with people digging their own holes... > >Habbalah are also somewhat interesting -- they're so utterly lunatic. >Check out some of Maya's stories. ( http://www.tcp.co.uk/~maya Take >the In Nomine link. ) They also get to despise (other) demons. I've read some of those. Good stuff. > >Do note, however, that the more they use their resonances, the more >likely they are to suffer a backlash or worse -- a Divine Intervention. >Also, don't forget that humans can spend Essence (unconsciously, all >at once) to resist something that they really don't want to do. If >they make the resistance, the demon usually has trouble affecting >them again soon. I must state first: I don't buy DIs as any kind of dissuader. A ~0.5% chance of something bad happening...heck, birth control is significantly less reliable. :) Sure, the person can blow their Essence, but they still have low wills. Even if demons rarely act this way for fear of Dissonance (another suggestion), it still irks me that a demon can just proactively corrupt someone like that. Some of the Band Resonances aren't terribly bad, and the Lilim Resonance is middlin' okay. It's just that there are Resonances (like, say, Dark Desire) with which one can just torpedo a person, no matter what kind of life they live. Heck, that one doesn't even use the person's own darkest desires...it can be anything. Instant bestiality, say. Bleah. That bugs. I should explain my attitude on this. For a while in roleplaying, morality wasn't a huge issue for me. I played Shadowrun extensively in junior high and high school (heck - need something to do at Boy Scout camp, right?). After a while, I realized that our games tended to involve offing a lot of poor schmucks who just had the misfortune to be on the evening security detail. These days, I'm no big fan of amorality and random violence, in RPGs and elsewhere. Though I'm a big action movie fan (esp. HK flicks) I'm sick of the need directors feel to kill tons of innocent people to give cause to the heroes. One reason (other than crappy pseudoscience) why I don't like the X-Files is that they feel the need to kill random people left and right. For once, I'd like to see a mystery show on television where the protagonist solved weird robberies, forgery, and other non-lethal crimes. Thus, I'm sick of hurting innocents. I could play a demon game where corruption is solely a function of choice for people (even if they're talked into it). It's the simple ability to instantly corrupt someone that gets me. [As a quick aside, there's a cat in my apartment complex who wanders into any open window or door and gives the place a thorough examination. Kyrio of David? Then again, I don't know if David approves of his servants hanging around to be scratched behind the ears...] > >At 12:00 PM -0400 10/2/97, Walter Milliken wrote: >>Of course, the general selfish nature of demons doesn't make them real >>hero material -- you're not going to find a lot of demons who will >>sacrifice themselves for the Cause. But except for Shedim, a demon >>doesn't really need to do evil, though there is apparently a feeling in >>Hell that one way to win the War is to send all of humanity to Hell. > >Get more power that way. Humans are wonderful little Essence >generators. Do you want them up in Heaven, generating power for >the Establishment, or down in Hell, generating power for your bosses? > Fight the man! Or something. I'm sure there could be a Rage Against the Machine song about it (now there's a big victory for Nybbas...Rage Against the Machine, as long as it's not Sony...). Alexander Shearer nightgaunt@earthlink.net gaunt@uclink4.berkeley.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Oct 1997 20:49:09 -0500 From: tom timberlake Subject: Re: IN>Arch Beth's Offer; was White Wolf's Games vs. In Nomine Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > Or do I have to get out the bullwhip and leather? > Pleeeeeease, Mistress, please? tom, who expects to go to hell for quoting out of context... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Oct 1997 23:37:55 -0400 From: speaks@mindspring.com Subject: IN> Demonic Morality At 03:04 PM 10/2/97 -0500, Donald G Bixler wrote: >Angels say "Do this because you should do this.", demons say "Do what >you think you should do." Admittedly, most demons think that people >could use a little nudging, but not against their will. Not against their will? Almost every single resonance is DESIGNED to overcome the will of their targets (Balseraph, Habballah, Lillim, Shedim). They don't nudge, they CONTROL. >Those in Hell >are there because they prefer it there, some for creature comforts, some >because they believe in the cause You are rewriting the fact that denziens of hell are tortured for their essence, I assume. Just my .02 Speaks There are few situations in life that cannot be resolved promptly, and to the satisfaction of all concerned, by either suicide, a bag of gold, or thrusting a despised antagonist over a precipice on a dark night. -- Ernest Bramah (Kai Lung stories) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 23:45:55 -0400 (EDT) From: CeIestiaI7@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> White Wolf's Games vs. In Nomine In a message dated 97-10-02 18:08:04 EDT, you write: > For the most part, I see demons as being nastiest in things close to the > Word they serve; they're a lot freer in their attitudes towards things > that don't directly concern that, since it doesn't really affect their > personal power/standing/survival. > And you know, you're right. But it's still difficult for me to grasp playing the demon as the protagonist. No matter how you slice it up, the Impudite of Gluttony with the "Father Knows Best" Role, the guy who wants his kids to succeed and would *never* cheat on his wife, is still abhorrently evil when he tries to convince people that blue popsicles=raspberry. Wait. Sorry. That would be the Balseraph of Gluttony. Seriously though, I think demons are best left as NPCs since they usually espouse the least desireable qualities of humanity. And to the supposed Shedite who "perverts" a racist into committing random acts of needless tolerance...you're a closet Kyriotate who doesn't want to admit to his satanic friends that he would like to play an angel and sing show tunes [see my earlier post on Frankie, the Archangel of Grease :-). S.A. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 23:48:31 -0400 (EDT) From: CeIestiaI7@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> White Wolf's Games vs. In Nomine In a message dated 97-10-02 18:08:04 EDT, you write: > For the most part, I see demons as being nastiest in things close to the > Word they serve; they're a lot freer in their attitudes towards things > that don't directly concern that, since it doesn't really affect their > personal power/standing/survival. > And you know, you're right. But it's still difficult for me to grasp playing the demon as the protagonist. No matter how you slice it up, the Impudite of Gluttony with the "Father Knows Best" Role, the guy who wants his kids to succeed and would *never* cheat on his wife, is still abhorrently evil when he tries to convince people that blue popsicles=raspberry. Wait. Sorry. That would be the Balseraph of Gluttony. Seriously though, I think demons are best left as NPCs since they usually espouse the least desireable qualities of humanity. And to the supposed Shedite who "perverts" a racist into committing random acts of needless tolerance...you're a closet Kyriotate who doesn't want to admit to his satanic friends that he would like to play an angel and sing show tunes [see my earlier post on Frankie, the Archangel of Grease :-). S.A. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Oct 97 00:00 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Vessel death and 'A Bright/Dark Dream' >> I believe the book says that if you can bail from one Vessel to another, you >> don't get sent back to Heaven/Hell and collect your Trauma. > > That's the problem. If his vessel was too damaged to >survive, why was he still conscious? People can be dying and still be conscious. They do it all the time in the movies.... Well, IN, *is* a cinematic game. I just figured it was essentially like the "dying actions" optional rule in GURPS. Only celestials get better after they die. I don't think a special attunement is needed, though Charlie, being a Servitor of Death, probably is due a few bendings of the normal rules governing death.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 22:14:37 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: Re: IN> White Wolf's Games vs. In Nomine > continue, fine. Discussions about demons can continue. But no more > WW-gamer bashing unless it's specific and has some direct relevance > to In Nomine. OKAY, EVERYONE? > > Or do I have to get out the bullwhip and leather? Oh, THAT'LL end the conversation. *ahem* Hey, WW sure do suck, don't it? {MaBarry wants me to add that their fomori are just wimpy demons, but I think she's just trying to edge in on my blame..} ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Oct 97 00:06 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Vessel death and 'A Bright/Dark Dream' > His body was describe as 'dead meat' and so it was. If he had >just switched vessels, it would have vanished. It would still be >damaged, yes, but who in their right mind would abandon a good vessel >that just needed some healing? Derek wrote an explanation of this whole sequence, early on on this list. It's probably in the archives. I think I've got a copy around somewhere, and the Archivist almost certainly does.... There's also the question about whether it's canon that dead vessels disappear like non-dead ones do when you go celestial. If your Corporeal Forces have been severed from it, maybe it doesn't.... I've been thinking that a dead vessel may hang around until the celestial involved comes out of Trauma (representing the point where the last Corporeal Force has broken free of it). This doesn't really fit with the above, but I think it's an interesting notion. In this case, if you switch to a spare body (like Charlie does), the dying one would disappear, though. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 22:08:02 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Live-Action > >> (Hmmm... there *isn't* a Lilith picture > >> in the basic IN book, is there? If I were her, I'd be annoyed that I > >> was the only Superior who didn't get one....) > > Steve probably couldn't afford the licensing fees that Lilith > I don't know... given the general popularity of Lilim in the game, I > suspect Lilith would find it a shrewd marketing move to have her picture > available -- lots of people would be wanting favors from her.... Nah, Lilith's smarter than that...preferences vary too much. As it stands, everyone builds up their own, personal, idea of what Lilith PROBABLY looks like and lusts after her. If she had an actual PICTURE, she'd cut down on her market share...(I mean, does she use her red-headed vessel? There go all the blondophiles...) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Oct 97 00:11 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Vessel death and 'A Bright/Dark Dream' > From what I'm looking at here, Charlie's Vessel was down to just a >couple hits. He failed his Song of Corporeal Healing, leaving his vessel too >badly beat up for any practical purpose... and decided that, instead of >trying to work the beat-up vessel back to his home and let it heal up, he'd >just ditch the worthless body and use his back-up vessel, presumably stowed >in a Body Bag as mentioned before. > > Charlie -could- -possibly- have salvaged the vessel, but it would >have been easier to just make a new one, so he abandoned it. I don't think so -- it's a *lot* easier to heal up a vessel than get a new one (the former only costs Essence, the latter costs cp's -- i.e., a brownie points with your Superior). And switching vessels normally causes the vessel being left to vanish. I believe this is a "dying action" -- and I think Derek said as much. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 22:49:20 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> On playing demons > > As written, the demons seem like they'll be spending a notable > > portion of their time corrupting people, and they'll do it with ease. The > This is a real and significant problem. Demons tend to be more > interesting when they are seducers. How about this - Demon Princes award > more status to demons who can corrupt subtly rather than powering humans > over with supernatural abilities. The more free will the human has as > they fall, the more their soul is worth. Well, look at it logically; Destinies and Fates are, all told, personal things, and very few demons have the ability to find out what they are...so if a Shedim takes a guy and turns him into a mass murderer, when the guy's Dark Fate was to forget to wash his hands one day at his job at Denny's and give food poisoning to a couple people...well, because of that Shedim, the guy (and, probably, everyone he shoots) just recycles, where he might otherwise have gone to Hell... Otherwise, though, there are a few other points to it. The majority of them have only limited control over what they can get a human to do. A Balseraph, say, can make someone believe something, but not necessarily control what gets done about it...Haballah can get someone REALLY worked up about it, but people get VERY irrational at that point, so again, the direct control is limited. Impudite Charm makes a person like them, but doesn't force them to DO anything...and even if my best, most trusted buddy asked me to join him in a gangrape, I think I'd cancel the friendship on the spot. Lilim, of course, can Geas someone into a very specific activity, if they've done something sufficiently Need-fulfilling ahead of time...which can be obnoxious, but not likely damning, as even in the person's own mind, it'll be "That horrible lady who bailed me out that time" who made them do it... Which leaves the obvious, Shedim. Who only have the person for a few days. Yes, they can make the person do some terrible things and really make a mess of someone's life in that week, but..people check in to AA all the time and get OVER it. (If anything, a reckless Shedim is likely to push more people to their Destiny than to Fate...) What it really comes down to is, how effectively demons can corrupt at will depends on what they're corrupting FOR. In the traditional sense of guiding a soul down to Hell...they're strictly limited. In a more immediate sense of messing up some people's lives and throwing a few humans between themselves and the Angels coming after them, well...THAT they can do. {I suppose a demon could really hang out with a particular human for a long time and have more of an effect, but that fits right in with the general mythology of the demon lovingly corrupting some holy man over 70 or so years. Most modern on-the-go demons just don't have TIME for that.} ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #379 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.