From owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Mon Oct 6 12:01:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA12707 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 12:01:36 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id LAA25588 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 11:00:19 -0500 Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 11:00:19 -0500 Message-Id: <199710061600.LAA25588@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #386 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@LISTS.IO.COM Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, October 6 1997 Volume 01 : Number 386 In this digest: IN> Re: Revelations IN> On Playing Evil IN> On Playing Evil Re: IN> Eyewitness account of an Outcasting IN> Questions Re: IN> On Playing Evil Re: IN> On Playing Evil Re: IN> On Playing Evil Re: IN> Eyewitness account of an Outcasting Re: IN> On Playing Evil Re: IN> On Playing Evil IN> IN in other settings IN> being nasty to Shedim. Re: IN> Lilim and Malakim (fwd) Re: IN> On playing demons Re: IN> On Playing Evil Re: IN> On Playing Evil Re: IN> IN in other settings Re: IN> Eyewitness account of an Outcasting Re: IN> Lilim and Malakim (fwd) Re: IN> On Playing Evil RE: IN> IN in other settings Re: IN> On Playing Evil Did Uriel have help (Was: Re: IN> IN in other settings) Re: IN> IN in other settings IN> conversion Re: IN> On Playing Evil Re: Did Uriel have help (Was: Re: IN> IN in other settings) Re: IN> On Playing Evil Re: IN> On Playing Evil ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 12:58:21 -0500 From: rbeall@fdldotnet.com (Grim88) Subject: IN> Re: Revelations >What the heaven are you talking about? I haven't seen anything like >that on any of the IN pages. You'll just have to wait a bit longer. The Malakim in Black have warned me to not say another word on the subject. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 14:15:26 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> On Playing Evil >>>Hmmm....a huge sector of the computer game industry is totally devoted to those people who either at least enjoy killing indiscriminately. Look at Doom and it's children for the greatest example.<<< Yup. Nybbas has done a wonderful job of desensitizing us... - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 14:15:25 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> On Playing Evil >>>There is something linquistically odd going on here. "Doing something in a game" is a metaphor. "Doing something in a game" is *not* a way of doing something, as "Doing something in a house" or "Doing something on Tuesday is".<<< No, I am not suggesting that committing rape and murder in a game is the same as committing rape and murder in real life, or that people who do that in a game WANT to do it in real life. But I do find it disturbing when people think doing this in a game is FUN. Yes, there is a difference between imagination and reality, but I don't happen to believe that just because something is fictional, it has no bearing on the real world. I don't believe that watching a media filled with sex and violence, for example, has NO effect on the attitudes of the people watching it. Likewise, I don't think roleplaying atrocities with glee says nothing about the roleplayer. If you get off on pretending to rape or murder or beat someone up, then there is some part of you that finds the action that you're simulating appealing. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 13:32:55 -0500 (CDT) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> Eyewitness account of an Outcasting >[From William Blake's _The Marriage of Heaven and Hell_, the fifth and >last Memorable Fancy. Punctuation and spelling as in the original.] > >Would anyone care to guess at the Choir of the ex-Angel? (The Band of the >Devil is fairly fairly obvious, I suspect.) Ofanite almost without a doubt, at least in my mind. Now a Habbalite. Redneck Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | Marc sponsored the first http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | Chinese buffet restraunt; c/o White Lightning Productions | it was Haagenti who came http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | up with MSG. Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- Celestial folklore http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 14:21:05 -600 From: "John L Veazey" Subject: IN> Questions 1> How many negative hits do mortal characters get? Celestials get Vessel level x Strength. So do mortals just get Strength? 2> If mortals don't get vessels, why does Mother Wilkinson, a Bodhisattva (pg 14 Night Music) have a Vessel: Human/2; or are Bodhisattvas an exception & have vessels? 3> If a vessel of a celestial dies, a> if he has another vessel can he automatically shift to another vessel or must he blow the required essence to shift? b> if he can shift to another vessel, what happens to the dead vessel? Is it still dead and lying where it died or does it go back to its potential existence? c> does the dead vessel slowly discorporate, or does it decay as per a normal body? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 05 Oct 1997 21:19:46 GMT From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: Re: IN> On Playing Evil On Sun, 5 Oct 1997 14:15:25 -0400, David Edelstein wrote: >No, I am not suggesting that committing rape and murder in a game is the >same as committing rape and murder in real life, or that people who do that >in a game WANT to do it in real life. But I do find it disturbing when >people think doing this in a game is FUN. Yes, there is a difference >between imagination and reality, but I don't happen to believe that just >because something is fictional, it has no bearing on the real world. I >don't believe that watching a media filled with sex and violence, for >example, has NO effect on the attitudes of the people watching it. >Likewise, I don't think roleplaying atrocities with glee says nothing about >the roleplayer. If you get off on pretending to rape or murder or beat >someone up, then there is some part of you that finds the action that >you're simulating appealing. Have you ever been mad or frustrated at your job, boss or friend? Sure, we all have. Our instinct is to do something about the situation, fight or flight. Doing nothing--politely and civilly suppressing our feelings-- stresses us. Whether we kill characters in IN, murder simulated people in a computer game or hack and slash our shrubs and weeds, we're fighting. We're doing something in place of what we couldn't do before. We feel good because, in a socially and morally acceptable way, we're relieving the stress we build up by suppressing our urges to fight in real situations. People roleplay killing with glee because they can feel the stress draining from them with each kill. Be more worried about people who never do anything to relieve stress. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 19:34:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Gregory Littmann Subject: Re: IN> On Playing Evil > >>>Hmmm....a huge sector of the computer game industry is totally devoted > to those people who either at least enjoy killing indiscriminately. > Look at Doom and it's children for the greatest example.<<< > > Yup. Nybbas has done a wonderful job of desensitizing us... > To what? If to simulated violence, I don't mind. If you mean to real violence, I don't think that we are an unusually violent age. If anything, the media has helped expose the horrors of violence and made us take a more serious attitude towards it. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 19:44:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Gregory Littmann Subject: Re: IN> On Playing Evil > >>>There is something linquistically odd going on here. "Doing something > in a game" is a metaphor. "Doing something in a game" is *not* a way of > doing something, as "Doing something in a house" or "Doing something on > Tuesday is".<<< > > No, I am not suggesting that committing rape and murder in a game is the > same as committing rape and murder in real life, or that people who do that > in a game WANT to do it in real life. But I do find it disturbing when > people think doing this in a game is FUN. Yes, there is a difference > between imagination and reality, but I don't happen to believe that just > because something is fictional, it has no bearing on the real world. I > don't believe that watching a media filled with sex and violence, for > example, has NO effect on the attitudes of the people watching it. O.K. Now I think I have some idea of what is bothering you. I just don't agree with your claim on this empirical matter. There has been some evidence that violent media has a bad effect on young children, but, as far as I know, no evidence showing similar effects on adults. Perhaps you know differently. > Likewise, I don't think roleplaying atrocities with glee says nothing about > the roleplayer. If you get off on pretending to rape or murder or beat > someone up, then there is some part of you that finds the action that > you're simulating appealing. !!! I also play games where the P.C. gets wounded in combat, but I don't find *that* appealing. Indeed, most of my P.C.s live *horrible* lives that I would want no part of. But let me leave that aside for a moment. Even if playing someone evil *did* say something bad about the player, this doesn't show that playing someone evil is bad. It would have to be the case that playing someone evil enhanced the evil in the player. I know of no evidence to support this. Indeed, role-players (even those who play AD&D) are *less* prone to violent crime than average, despite the fact that the mainstay of R.P.G.s to this day (*especially AD&D*) is carnage, carnage and then some more carnage. What did a Vampire player ever do to you to make you so concerned? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 20:31:56 -0400 (EDT) From: "Benjamin D. Hutchins" Subject: Re: IN> Eyewitness account of an Outcasting > >Would anyone care to guess at the Choir of the ex-Angel? (The Band of the > >Devil is fairly fairly obvious, I suspect.) > > Ofanite almost without a doubt, at least in my mind. Now a Habbalite. ^^^^^^^ YM "Elohite". HTH. - --G. - -- Benjamin D. Hutchins, cofounder and Keeper-Straight of the Continuity Eyrie Productions, Unlimited - An AnimeTech Limited Company -><- Visit us on the World Wide Web at http://www.eyrie.net/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 20:00:45 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> On Playing Evil > O.K. Now I think I have some idea of what is bothering you. I just don't > agree with your claim on this empirical matter. There has been some > evidence that violent media has a bad effect > on young children, but, as far as I know, no evidence showing similar > effects on adults. Perhaps you know differently. Honestly, even the evidence of media's effects on children are rather unconvincing...(they occasionally do studies where they show people violent acts all day and, yes, by the end of the day, the subjects are generally getting a little bored by it all. They CAN'T demonstrate why, if television causes increased violence, a black neighborhood in Washington, D.C. has a violent crime rate 25 times higher than a white neighborhood a few bus stops away, receiving, naturally, the exact same programming. Proponents of the "It's all TV's fault" theory cheerfully point out that the average kid will see "200,000 violent acts on TV" by the time they're eighteen; they NEVER mention the 15 million odd acts of REAL violence that actual, genuine parents directly actually really inflict on actual real children every year. Actually, really.) [All this comedy on TV; is it causing comedy on the streets? ] > But let me leave that aside for a moment. Even if playing someone evil > *did* say something bad about the player, this doesn't show that playing > someone evil is bad. It would have to be the case that playing someone Perhaps more to the point, even saying that one finds "something appealing" to the idea of, say, beating people up, doesn't mean the player is "bad". Personally, I'm among the most devout pacifists I know. I'd be lying if I didn't say the adrenaline rush at the image of, say, mashing some mugger's face in with a big stick, doesn't have some appeal. (And rapist hunting, if I had the skills...) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 20:04:25 -0700 (PDT) From: nightgaunt@earthlink.net (Alexander Shearer) Subject: Re: IN> On Playing Evil >Have you ever been mad or frustrated at your job, boss or friend? Sure, we >all have. Our instinct is to do something about the situation, fight or >flight. Doing nothing--politely and civilly suppressing our feelings-- >stresses us. Whether we kill characters in IN, murder simulated people in a >computer game or hack and slash our shrubs and weeds, we're fighting. We're >doing something in place of what we couldn't do before. We feel good >because, in a socially and morally acceptable way, we're relieving the >stress we build up by suppressing our urges to fight in real situations. >People roleplay killing with glee because they can feel the stress draining >from them with each kill. This partially covers it. Catharsis through fake violence is a bit of a given. I enjoy wargames (not only for this reason, though...and I rarely play them these days, but that's more a time issue), I occasionally play really violent RPGs, and I did a solid half hour of sparring during open workout today. This is an easy and fun roleplaying scenario. I don't see people having a problem with "all the angels go kick some demonic butt" or the corollary. However, this doesn't extend to the full spectrum of the discussion. Sure, I'm torqued off at that woman who sped up to hit me two weeks ago when I was crossing the street (true story...first time I'd ever seen someone consciously do that). I felt like smashing her car. Maybe, later on, I could have vented by having my Cherub pound a demon's head in with a tw- by-four. I don't think it's so pleasant if someone feels the need to relieve stress by roleplaying rape, torture[1], or other unpleasant action of choice (e.g. playing a Shedim...:)). Roleplaying as stress relief seems [2] like a window into someone's psyche. Sure, I understand that my friend's day sucked and he just wants to beat on unnamed thugs today. That's cool. When he wants his character to add rapine to the pillage, I worry [3]. Some of this can fall into grey areas. In some settings (Cyberpunk/SR, some IN games) people who don't necessarily deserve it may be injured or killed. That's part of the genre, and for those who care, it will give them something to think about after the game (e.g. Can one justify collateral mortal damage in The War?). > >Be more worried about people who never do anything to relieve stress. > Hmmm. Yeah, but don't assume that everyone must do it the way you do. They may relieve stress by gardening. Way back in junior high, an acquaintance insisted that it was a bad sign that may parents never had huge arguments. They're still happily together, however (25+ years). 1: This depends on situation a great deal. Is it really bad when one set of amoral undead creatures tortures another? Maybe not. 2: I say "seems" because...how can I know? I've found, however, that this kind of thing can be reflective of the person in general. 3: Yes, rape bothers me. It has no place in my games. I'm not going to preach, though. Alexander Shearer nightgaunt@earthlink.net gaunt@uclink4.berkeley.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 13:46:31 +1000 From: Jason Mulligan Subject: IN> IN in other settings I've been wondering (well actually one of my group suggested this) is anyone has thought about or tried to run an In Nomine game set in another time/place. Like say medieval France, or say a game in and around the time of Solomon. - -- Jason Mulligan "The path of my life is strewn with cowpats from the devil's own satanic herd!" - Edmund Blackadder ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 14:08:56 +1000 From: Anthony Baxter Subject: IN> being nasty to Shedim. like many folks on this list, I really don't like Shedim. I don't mean in a "they shouldn't be in IN" way, but in a "they really make me feel eurgh" way. I just ran a (mostly) introductory IN tournament at a convention this last weekend, which was a lot of fun, as I got to be nasty to a Shedim. Basic idea: Shedim are used to being able to bounce into a body, cause trouble, and bounce away. How would one react if he suddenly found himself _stuck_ in the body he was in? Somewhat badly, I'd imagine - it would be like some form of sensory deprivation for them. The players (all mundane humans, with one force-6 child as one of them), had to get close enough to the Shedim to whack him with the artifact (a small amulet that bound the shedim). I had a lot of fun playing out how the Shedim reacted to this - managed to inspire quite a few 'euw...' reactions from the players, too (which was the point of the thing - Shedim _are_ _nasty_). I'll post a bit of a writeup of the characters and storyline in a few days... - -- Anthony Baxter development bunny and perl victim. work: arb@connect.com.au connect.com.au pty ltd play: anthony@nod.zikzak.net It's never too late to have a happy childhood. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 00:44:34 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> Lilim and Malakim (fwd) > > Oh, dear. I'm going to have to work on a In Nomine/IOU game - > > Well, if you make it a PBeM, let me know... If I make a IN PBEM, it will be much more serious. > > at that level, but just order we haven't understood) If the same is > > even moderately true of the Celestial and Ethereal in your ( In > > Nomine game (it is in mine) then symmetry at that level is not a > > given. In essence, you're looking for true symmetry like the Greeks > > did with earth, air, fire, and water - at the totally wrong level. > > Hmm...I confess, I DO have a tendancy to keep my mythology > mythological...(by which I mean, when I'm playing around with > rules for things like Angels and Demons, I enjoy giving them > `laws' that make sense from a..literary standpoint, but don't > necessarily give a whit to science. I've never really gone for that - my games tend to go for gritty realism, even if it's realism by our standards... Which means that if I do my IN game as a PBEM, you might not appreciate it as much. > > I have a feeling I'm going to regret this, but...Mortijinglist? > > Well...you're in some luck; I won't go into great detail here, > because it's not strictly list-appropriate. Briefly, though, > Mortijingle is the Lord of Death and Humor, and embodies the irony > inherent in the universe. Servator of Kobal with the word of Funny Deaths? Kobal himself? Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com "This is my town. I know where the ketchup is." - Dan Smith ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 00:44:34 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> On playing demons > > In Nomine doesn't say what happens to humans in the > > upper Heavens. > > I don't. But if any celestial seriously thinks that Heaven is > worse than Hell, then if they have a shred of decency they will > reject *both* sides and work to bring down *both*. The problem is, no regular angel has been to higher Heaven, and only some of the AAs are supposed to have. And God might be brainwashing the angels, anyway... > > Adjust the colors, reverse them -- at least humans *exist* in Hell, > > and are mostly still self-aware creatures. Would you rather have > > your individual personality eradicated entirely, washed away in > > the Light, or would you rather hang around Shal-Mari and bus tables? > > Personally, I'd prefer obliteration - and almost *anyone*, I > would think, would prefer obliteration to somewhere in Hell > *other* than Shal-Mari. But any celestial that knowingly supports > a regime that does *either* to souls is worse than any Nazi that > ever lived. For some demons, we are about the equivalent of cows. How many of you object, morally, to the situation that cows in? At best, kept in cheap pleasure palaces while they are drained of what we want from them, at worst, ripped apart for what we want from them. For some demons, it works on balance of fears. Demons can either go along with it, and save their hides, or try to change sides, and risk getting smoked by *both* sides. Does this make these demons good? No. But they aren't all evil - just cowardly (with good cause) and selfish. Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com "This is my town. I know where the ketchup is." - Dan Smith ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 00:44:34 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> On Playing Evil > Yes, there is a difference between imagination and reality, but I > don't happen to believe that just because something is fictional, > it has no bearing on the real world. I don't believe that watching > a media filled with sex and violence, for example, has NO effect > on the attitudes of the people watching it. He says it better than I could: "Violent American movies like Die Hard, Terminator, and Lethal Weapon do very well in places like Canada, Japan, and Europe. Very well. Yet these countries do not have nearly the violence of the United States. In 1989, in all of Japan, with a population of 150 million, there were 754 murders. In New York City that year, with a population of only 7.5 million, there were 2300." "The Japanese consume far more violent and depraved pornography than we do [Ed - anybody who's seen hentai "tentacle sex" will agree, here], and yet there is almost no rape reported there. A woman is twenty times more in danger of being raped in the US than she is in Japan. Why? Because Japanese people are decent, civilized, and intelligent." - George Carlin, Braindroppings > Likewise, I don't think roleplaying atrocities with glee says > nothing about the roleplayer. If you get off on pretending to rape > or murder or beat someone up, then there is some part of you that > finds the action that you're simulating appealing. Guess what - that part's in everybody. It's part of our animal heritage to kill and rape - it ensures survival. If you've never fantasized about kicking the daylights out of some idiot who just cut you off, then you are in the minority, my friend. A very small minority. How people deal with these urges is up to them - most simply repress them, or redirect them. Others choose to play games (roleplaying or otherwise) that express them. Sorry to sound harsh, but I as a player who has (on occasion) played very evil characters, I was irked. Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com "This is my town. I know where the ketchup is." - Dan Smith ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 22:31:06 -0700 (PDT) From: nightgaunt@earthlink.net (Alexander Shearer) Subject: Re: IN> On Playing Evil >"Violent American movies like Die Hard, Terminator, and Lethal >Weapon do very well in places like Canada, Japan, and Europe. Very >well. Yet these countries do not have nearly the violence of the >United States. In 1989, in all of Japan, with a population of 150 >million, there were 754 murders. In New York City that year, with a >population of only 7.5 million, there were 2300." As an aside: Crime rates in European cities and U.S. cities are similar. The key difference is in armed criminals. I'm sorry I can't cite this, but I just read some interesting stuff on this point: 4% of all criminal acts in the U.S. are carried out with firearms. 75% of the murders in the U.S. use firearms. Basically, the idea is that the U.S. is no more generally criminal than other nations - we just have too many /armed/ criminals. Good work by Saminga, if you like to assign blame (though I'm a big fan of people just being that bad all on their own). Anyway, I addressed why things do or don't bug me in a different response. I just thought this was interesting, and hopefully not too far off topic. Alexander Shearer nightgaunt@earthlink.net gaunt@uclink4.berkeley.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 15:50:20 +1000 From: Anthony Baxter Subject: Re: IN> IN in other settings >>> Jason Mulligan wrote > I've been wondering (well actually one of my group suggested this) is > anyone has thought about or tried to run an In Nomine game set in another > time/place. Like say medieval France, or say a game in and around the time > of Solomon. I was talking to people on the weekend who were running a campaign set in Arthurian Britain, at the time of Uriel's rampage... sounded like it was working well. Anthony ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 01:01:07 -0500 (CDT) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> Eyewitness account of an Outcasting >> >Would anyone care to guess at the Choir of the ex-Angel? (The Band of the >> >Devil is fairly fairly obvious, I suspect.) >> >> Ofanite almost without a doubt, at least in my mind. Now a Habbalite. > ^^^^^^^ > >YM "Elohite". HTH. > Right, sorry. Got the two Celestials confused there. Redneck Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | "Nah, they can't start the http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | Apocalypse yet- the new Star c/o White Lightning Productions | Wars movies ain't come out http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | yet. Who'd miss that?" Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- Eli, on the War http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 00:23:16 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> Lilim and Malakim (fwd) > > > Oh, dear. I'm going to have to work on a In Nomine/IOU game - > > Well, if you make it a PBeM, let me know... > If I make a IN PBEM, it will be much more serious. Drat. Well, let me know anyway.. > > Hmm...I confess, I DO have a tendancy to keep my mythology > > mythological...(by which I mean, when I'm playing around with > I've never really gone for that - my games tend to go for gritty > realism, even if it's realism by our standards... > Which means that if I do my IN game as a PBEM, you might not > appreciate it as much. Oh, I enjoy playing in all kinds of worlds I wouldn't run myself...and I can certainly see the point to it; given the replication of patterns between, say, atoms and solar systems, quarks and honeybees, etc., there's certainly a good case for applying them to angels and demons... > > because it's not strictly list-appropriate. Briefly, though, > > Mortijingle is the Lord of Death and Humor, and embodies the irony > > inherent in the universe. > Servator of Kobal with the word of Funny Deaths? Kobal himself? Well, seeing the Prince of Dark Humor in there WAS one of the reasons we picked up the game in the first place...unfortunately, we were a little disappointed on that end. Kobal, when it comes down to it, really doesn't seem to GET humor, and Mortijingle's ironies aren't always `bad'... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 00:16:43 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> On Playing Evil > "The Japanese consume far more violent and depraved pornography than > we do [Ed - anybody who's seen hentai "tentacle sex" will agree, > here], and yet there is almost no rape reported there. A woman is > twenty times more in danger of being raped in the US than she is in > Japan. Why? Because Japanese people are decent, civilized, and > intelligent." > - George Carlin, Braindroppings Carlin doesn't know that much about Japan...there wasn't much rape reported in the US until it was considered a serious crime, and in much of the rest of the world (Southeast Asia and Japan specifically included), it still isn't. {The statistically reported chance of a woman in the US being raped jumped phenomenally through the 20 year or so period when feminism was really taking hold...which has nothing to do with the actual rate it occurred, just how often it was reported and taken seriously. Particularly when you consider that in most of the US, it's legally possible to rape a wife; in the rest of the world, that's extremely rare.} > Guess what - that part's in everybody. It's part of our animal > heritage to kill and rape - it ensures survival. If you've never I'm noticing that killing is considered a lot more acceptable in gaming than rape...I would actually suggest that it's also more deeply ingrained. (Relationships of some duration - about 5-7 years - ARE somewhat enforced in our instinct, to provide protection for the offspring.. Now, it's an interesting question as to whether Celestials HAVE instincts...hmm...whatever the situation in a game is as to humans, it's almost certain that Angels never evolved.) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 07:46:45 EST From: "ROBERT A. COUTURE" Subject: RE: IN> IN in other settings On Mon, Oct. 6th 1997, Anthony Baxter wrote: > I've been wondering is anyone has thought about > or tried to run an In Nomine game set in another time/ > place ? I've been putting together a Dark Ages european campaign (c. 500 AD), before the recall of Uriel. I haven't figured out Uriel's servitor attunements and distinctions, but they should be close to that of Lawrence. Yes, there will be dragons, giants, and other creatures of myth; no, this won't be AD&D-meets-IN. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 09:36:16 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> On Playing Evil Just as a general remark -- It seems to me that the central issue about this thread is exactly what is meant by "getting off on" gamed violence, as in David's original remark, "*Getting off* on fictional badness is what bothers me." We've had references to venting the day's irritations with some gamed melee. But (1) unless the GM is particularly graphic, this is usually as clean and innocuous to the senses as a '50s TV western shoot out, where bullet wounds never show, and (2) this is not the same as playing a demon that endlessly connives to torment others, here or hereafter. And author or GM who supplies a detailed and well-thought-out villain has to have spent some considerable amount of time in the villain's head, and the same could be true of a player with an evil character. I think there is a delicate but importnat distinction concerning the NATURE of the enjoyment the player (or GM or author) gets from playing the villain's part. On the one hand, there's the craftsman's enjoyment: "Oo, I'm glad I thought of that one. That works well. Yes, yes, that's just what he'd do." On the other hand, there's a more direct pleasure: "There, that'll fix the little swine. Now how can I get back at the other?" The craftsman's enjoyment is, I think, innocuous, maybe even beneficial. The direct enjoyment is disturbing. The craftsman is detached, and may even take pleasure in watching his villainous character be set up for a long, hard fall, may even ASSIST in the set up, if he can do that in character. The direct enjoyment seems to reflect an attitude that would like to be just as rotten as the imagined villain, if only conscience or prudence didn't veto the plan. If only prudence vetoes the plan, the case is really alarming. If conscience vetoes the plan, the case is probably not alarming, but not the best spiritual health, either. And, once again, we're talking about a villain, who works consistently and hard at generating misery. Not a simple combatant in melee, used for blowing off steam. I think the two are very different. Kingsley Lintz wrote: > I'm noticing that killing is considered a lot more acceptable in > gaming than rape...I would actually suggest that it's also more deeply > ingrained. Also, "rape" is the name of a crime, a sin. "Killing" can be evil or not -- unless you are a strict pacifist. > Now, it's an interesting question as to whether > Celestials HAVE instincts...hmm...whatever the situation in a game >is as to humans, it's almost certain that Angels never evolved.) The concept of "instinct" is much older than the concept of evolution. Of course IN celestials have instincts. What do you think all the choir and band write-ups describe? The instincts of a celestial are its resonnances. Resonnances aren't just customs, habits, and training; they're celestial hardware, not software. Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 07:35:20 -0700 (PDT) From: nightgaunt@earthlink.net (Alexander Shearer) Subject: Did Uriel have help (Was: Re: IN> IN in other settings) >I was talking to people on the weekend who were running a campaign set >in Arthurian Britain, at the time of Uriel's rampage... sounded like it >was working well. > Did Uriel just go off all on his own, or were all the servants of Purity involved in the mythic genocide? This isn't really answered in Laurence's description. Alexander Shearer nightgaunt@earthlink.net gaunt@uclink4.berkeley.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 11:21:10 -0300 From: Andre Ribeiro Subject: Re: IN> IN in other settings Jason Mulligan wrote: > I've been wondering (well actually one of my group suggested this) is > anyone has thought about or tried to run an In Nomine game set in another > time/place. Like say medieval France, or say a game in and around the time > of Solomon. I was thinking, a time ago, about how angels & demons seem to pay quite a special interest in Earth...only. What about other planets?? What would IN Space look like?? Has God created the Universe or He just created Earth? Has Vega-3 another God?? And what of its Celestials?? And what when conflict arouses between both planets??? Oh, well... I think those tales about lack of coffee are true... Andre, D.P. P.S.: Oh! I couldn't miss the chance: Lucifer's word was Light, right? Then he fell... Wouldn't it make him 'the Demon of Black Holes'? They *do* disturb the Symphony - and it would please Lucifer to suck up the whole of God's creation... Ok... Black, no sugar... I know... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 10:23:53 -0400 From: "Chuck Ryan" Subject: IN> conversion I just felt the need to jump in here and defend this guy for a moment. It seems to me that allot of people reacted to his mention of a youth pasture with the same thoughtless knee jerk reflex that allot of religious types react to role playing games. I have had this experience personally on both sides of the spectrum. first when working at starting a local gaming store I was confronted by local church groups that were offended by the gaming material and most of them actually believed that playing these games would find there children in graveyards in the middle of the night * the media is a very powerful tool * . so I can understand peoples defensive reaction of there games you need to defend them. On the contrary and frankly more to the point of what I believe our friend here is trying to say. I once had a counselor at a local boys club that would run a weekly role playing session of the star wars role-playing game ( he felt because of the resent media blitz at the time that D&D would cause to many problems ) while he ran a great game it is only in retrospect that I spot the recurring themes of teen run away's drug abuse and others in his gaming material in this way I believe he taught a valuable lesson in an non intrusive manner that has stuck with me ever since let us not forget the ROLE PLAYING was originally used as an exercise in psychology to allow people to explore other aspects of personality part of this legacy still lives on in every choirboy that plays a demon and avery petty thief that runs a paladin through a dungeon CHUCK ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 10:55:56 -0400 (EDT) From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> On Playing Evil I'd like to add one point to the current discussion of killing, rape, and so on: Death is something our (i.e., Modern American/Western) culture has really sanitized in real life. Think about it. When was the last time you saw a dead body? Was it before or after the mortician had been at it? Was it someone who had died violently? I think that many people who don't have a problem with simulated violence/murder and do have a problem with simulated rape may be more familliar with *real* rape than *real* murder. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 11:09:53 -0400 (EDT) From: "Emily K. Dresner" Subject: Re: Did Uriel have help (Was: Re: IN> IN in other settings) > >I was talking to people on the weekend who were running a campaign set > >in Arthurian Britain, at the time of Uriel's rampage... sounded like it > >was working well. > > > Did Uriel just go off all on his own, or were all the servants of > Purity involved in the mythic genocide? This isn't really answered in > Laurence's description. The impression I got from the Marches was that Uriel and his entire flock went after the ethereals, including Laurence. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 11:21:44 -0400 () From: Greg Subject: Re: IN> On Playing Evil > > > > Roleplaying as stress relief seems [2] like a window into someone's > psyche. Sure, I understand that my friend's day sucked and he just wants to > beat on unnamed thugs today. That's cool. When he wants his character to add > rapine to the pillage, I worry [3]. What is do special about rape? > 1: This depends on situation a great deal. Is it really bad when one set of > amoral undead creatures tortures another? Maybe not. I think it would be if it happened in real life. As to whether two fictional people engage in torture, it makes no difference if the fictional torture is between two evil people, or one evil person and a helpless victem. None of it is real, so none of it is bad. > 2: I say "seems" because...how can I know? I've found, however, that this > kind of thing can be reflective of the person in general. Perhaps it can. But what evidence is there that playing evil characters makes people act out such atrocities in real life. > 3: Yes, rape bothers me. It has no place in my games. I'm not going to > preach, though. Interestingly, I can't stomach rape in my games either. But I regard this as a psychological quirk rather than a stand against evil. Interestingly, in the only case of a character *trying* to rape someone that I can recall, the player was a woman. The character btw, was male and the intended victem, female. Make of that what you will. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 11:31:11 -0400 () From: Greg Subject: Re: IN> On Playing Evil > > > "The Japanese consume far more violent and depraved pornography than > > we do [Ed - anybody who's seen hentai "tentacle sex" will agree, > > here], and yet there is almost no rape reported there. A woman is > > twenty times more in danger of being raped in the US than she is in > > Japan. Why? Because Japanese people are decent, civilized, and > > intelligent." > > - George Carlin, Braindroppings > Carlin doesn't know that much about Japan...there wasn't much rape > reported in the US until it was considered a serious crime, So his figures on rape are iffy. That leaves violence in general (and it would be surprising to me if there were no correlation between the two). > > Guess what - that part's in everybody. It's part of our animal > > heritage to kill and rape - it ensures survival. If you've never > I'm noticing that killing is considered a lot more acceptable in > gaming than rape...I would actually suggest that it's also more deeply > ingrained. (Relationships of some duration - about 5-7 years - ARE > somewhat enforced in our instinct, to provide protection for the > offspring.. Now, it's an interesting question as to whether > Celestials HAVE instincts...hmm...whatever the situation in a game is as > to humans, it's almost certain that Angels never evolved.) > I don't think it has much to do with instinct. I suspect that rape is less easily tolerated than other forms of violence because of it involves sex, which we are not very comfortable with. Note, I am *not* saying that rape isn't horrific. I'm saying that murder is no less so, yet is more acceptable because it has nothing to do with sex. ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #386 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.