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in_nomine-digest      Wednesday, October 8 1997      Volume 01 : Number 393



In this digest:

   Re: Re:  IN> White Wolf's Games vs. In Nomine
   Re: IN> The Cthulhu Mythos in In Nomine (part 1of many)
   Re: Did Uriel have help (Was: Re: IN> IN in other settings)
   Re: IN> [FICTION] Chess Game
   IN> Seraph of Lawrence mechanics
   Re: IN> [Silly] Last weekend's IN game.
   IN> Re: Did Uriel have help
   Re: IN> The Cthulhu Mythos in In Nomine
   IN> Fates and Destinies
   Re: IN> Questions
   Re: IN> The Cthulhu Mythos in In Nomine
   IN> Archangel Beth pictures...
   Re: IN> Questions
   Re: IN> (Fwd) A Mercurians Logo
   Re: IN> My theory on Revelations.
   Re: IN> Short Jean Thoughts
   Re: [LONG FLUFF] Prince of a guy (was IN> How I See Demons)
   IN> The new FAQ... back at last!
   Re: IN> What do we mean when we say "evil"?
   Re: IN> The Angel of Etiquette
   Re: IN> On playing demons
   Re: IN> On playing demons
   Re: Did Uriel have help (Was: Re: IN> IN in other settings)
   Re: IN> How I See Demons - Sidenote
   Re: IN> What do we mean when we say "evil"?
   Re: IN> On Playing Evil
   IN> Andre's Vessels
   Re: IN> What do we mean when we say "evil"?
   IN> backwards
   Re: IN> What do we mean when we say "evil"?
   IN> Why we have Canon (also what IS Canon?)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 00:19:30 -0600 (MDT)
From: Kingsley Lintz <lintking@stout.entertain.com>
Subject: Re: Re:  IN> White Wolf's Games vs. In Nomine

> >> >> Or do I have to get out the bullwhip and leather?
> >> >	Oh, THAT'LL end the conversation.
> >> What, you humans *like* things like that? <mutters darkly about how
> >	No, no, certainly not I..
> <thinks> <aside> "Hey, get the Seraph over here, wouldya?"
	That wouldn't be that Seraph of Creation you were talking about
earlier, would it?  (Hey, I could SO be that lucky.  I just rolled
a..er..251.  But that should count for something, too.)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 08:46:42 +0100
From: "cd skogsberg" <cd@alfakonsult.se>
Subject: Re: IN> The Cthulhu Mythos in In Nomine (part 1of many)

Earl Wajenberg wrote:

> What was Yig? Archangel? Demon Prince? Ethereal god? Other?

Is. Is. He's (It's?) still around today, even though he has very few 
followers (some plains indians in the SW USA, remaining Serpent Men). 
As for *what* he is, it's not known. Possibly 'other'.

If I can get ahold of the Marches, I'll do something about why 
Blandine doesn't like Cthulhu.

Sweet dreams...

cd
- --
"And it has come to pass that the Lord of the Woods, being ... Seven
and nine, down the onyx steps ... (tri)butes to Him in the Gulf, Aza-
thoth, He of Whom Thou hast taught us marv(els ..."
 - H. P. Lovecraft, _The Whisperer in Darkness_

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 02:47:05 -0400 (EDT)
From: Thomas Davidson <tdavidso@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
Subject: Re: Did Uriel have help (Was: Re: IN> IN in other settings)

On Tue, 7 Oct 1997, Alexander Shearer wrote:

> 
> >> >         Did Uriel just go off all on his own, or were all the servants of
> >> > Purity involved in the mythic genocide? This isn't really answered in
> >> > Laurence's description.
> >
> >    Actualy, it *is*. Every single servant of Uriel was involved and they all
> >were judged. The general feeling was that they were just following orders - not
> >guilty, though - and no-one in the Seraphim Council knew what to do with
> >Uriel... Then came God and took him upwards - end of story.
> 
>         Is that in The Marches, or in one of the other books? I don't yet
> have TM, but if it's in one of the others, I missed it.
>

Most of the answers to your questions are in "The Marches."  Excellent
book.  Go get it.  Probably one of the best of the supplements thus far.  
 
It not only answers many questions about Uriel and that whole Mess, but
also about Gabriel, and her madness are explained in full.  


Thomas Davidson
tdavidso@suffolk.lib.ny.us

MUSIC: Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, Rolling Stones, Rush, Jimi Hendrix
GAMES: Champions (old and new), In Nomine, Nephilim
TV:  The X-Files, the Simpsons, Superman, The Tick, the Animaniacs
OTHER:  Religion, Philosophy, mysticism, the runes, the Tarot, writing.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 02:09:13 -0500 (CDT)
From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin)
Subject: Re: IN> [FICTION] Chess Game

>> >Me, my personal fantasy would be meeting Eli in a female vessel... :9
>> Oooooo.....  
>	Nah, Eli's too predictable.  (Hey, does Novalis do the whole
>incubus/succubus thing and justify it as cross pollination?)
>[Wahoo!  On topic!]
>
Too predictable?

Let me give you the following lines, which could easily be adapted to any
sexually active Servitor of Creation (i. e. all of them).

"...I seem to recall a catcher's mitt..."
                --- Dan Fielding, 'Night Court'

"You wouldn't believe what she can do with a lawn chair and six glasses of
water."
                --- Prof. Gangrene, 'Return of the Killer Tomatoes.'

"Let's shake the dew off this lily, shall we?"
                --- Washuu Hakubi, 'TenchiMuyo! Ryo Oh Ki' (dub only)

"Say it! Say the words!" "Socio...  political... ramifications." "UUUUUHH!!"
                --- Firen and Sonya, 'Tank Vixens'

... but I think the general attitude of servitors of Eli can be summed up
like so:

"We'll try anything once... and then we'll try it again, and again, and
again and again and again, and keep trying until we get it -right.-"
                --- Sexual credo, Angels of Creation

Redneck

Kris Overstreet, will write for food... |  "Nah, they can't start the 
http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck   | Apocalypse yet- the new Star
c/o White Lightning Productions         | Wars movies ain't come out 
http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/      | yet. Who'd miss that?"
Webmaster for Antarctic Press           |   --- Eli, on the War
http://www.antarctic-press.com/         |  ***QUESTION EVERYTHING***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 17:14:08 +1000 (EST)
From: Peter Frederick <peterf@wr.com.au>
Subject: IN> Seraph of Lawrence mechanics

Dear List

back after a great, but not sufficiently lengthy holiday.

Thought I would start with a query about how people deal with the Seraph of
Lawrence choir attunement.

I have been treating it as a 100% black or white thing.  That is, it divides
100% of targets into either Good or Evil, and gives no indication as to the
magnitude of their Good or Evil.

Other possibilities I consdiered were that it might only register someone as
Good or Evil if they were over a certain degree of (Good or Evil)-Ness.
Thus some percentage of targets would register as Neutral.  The percentage
of Neutral target is a judgement call by the ref I guess.

Also how reasonable is it to have someones Status (Good or Evil) dependant
on what they are doing at the pint that the Seraph "pings" them.  For the
average human small changes might push them back and forth across the divide
between Good and Evil 20 times an hour and even Celestials could be caught
on the "wrong side" if you look at the at the right (or wrong?) time.

Glad to be back, thanking you for your previous (and hopefully continuing)
indulgence.

Yours
        Peter.
Reply to peterf@wr.com.au
What does the Lord require of you, but to do justice and to love kindness
and to walk humbly with your God

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 09:51:59 -0300
From: Andre Ribeiro <base@cyberdude.com>
Subject: Re: IN> [Silly] Last weekend's IN game.

IQJason@aol.com wrote:

> One of the players in our game last weekend was desirious of a word, but
> wasn't of sufficient power (or competency). We decided to compromise. We gave
> him a Gesture.
> He's now the Angel of (hand out, palm down, rotate in quarter-circles -- the
> sign of 'so-so' or 'enh'). :)

    Haha! I liked it!! Many people do speak with their hands, don't they?? :-)

> I don't feel the need to go into Demonic gestures.

<giggle>

        Andre, D.P.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 09:46:28 -0300
From: Andre Ribeiro <base@cyberdude.com>
Subject: IN> Re: Did Uriel have help

Alexander Shearer wrote:

> >> >         Did Uriel just go off all on his own, or were all the servants of
> >> > Purity involved in the mythic genocide? This isn't really answered in
> >> > Laurence's description.
> >
> >    Actualy, it *is*. Every single servant of Uriel was involved and they all
> >were judged. The general feeling was that they were just following orders - not
> >guilty, though - and no-one in the Seraphim Council knew what to do with
> >Uriel... Then came God and took him upwards - end of story.
>
>         Is that in The Marches, or in one of the other books? I don't yet
> have TM, but if it's in one of the others, I missed it.

    Night Music, pg 07 - third paragraph: "(...) Uriel *ordered* the destruction of
the beasts of myth - (...)" ~ If he ordered, his servants must've been in it too
(mark mine); fourth paragraph: "Lawrence played a key role in this 'cleansing,'
(...) The Seraphim Council convened to try Uriel, but couldn't decide whether to
punish his folowers or reward them. After all, they had only done their master's
bidding, and did so excellently."

    Er... did I brake some copyright law or something??

        Andre, D.P.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 09:04:33 -0500
From: Earl Wajenberg <earlw@mc.com>
Subject: Re: IN> The Cthulhu Mythos in In Nomine

Dorothy Bixler wrote:

> And now for tonights conspiracy-
[...]
> So my conspiracy theory is, sometime after Beleth gained control of 
> her side of the Marches, Nyarlathotep killed her off and assumed her 
> form as one of his 1000

Why bother with the celestial murder? Why not just have "Nyarlathotep"
and "Beleth" be two names for the same being?

Earl W.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 09:22:35 -0400 (EDT)
From: Stacy Stroud <smstro1@pop.uky.edu>
Subject: IN> Fates and Destinies

Kingsley Lintz wrote:
>	Though, since it's come up, I had an idea/plot seed that popped
>into my head the other night...
>	It's based on the premise that Fate/Destiny combinations KEEP
>COMING UP until they're fulfilled.  That is, when someone dies who hasn't
>managed that critical `choice', and their Forces recycle into the
>Symphony...the Fate and Destiny stay attached to those Forces, and when
>they're reborn, that person has basically the same potentials.  Not
>knowingly, as in the case of a Saint, obviously--it's not the PERSON
>recycling, just the F/D.

I agree with this wholeheartedly.  I'll be using pretty much the same idea
in my IN games.  However, I'd never explored the strategic implications the
way you just did.  Bravo, and thanks.  I'd almost recommend that the Makers
of Canon consider this idea for inclusion in IN canon.  (Sadly, it can't be
in H&H at this point.)

An additional note: In Nomine makes a distinction between reincarnation and
complete recycling of Forces.  I'd tend to think that Fates/Destinies stick
around only in the former case -- i.e., they are bound to a particular
*collection* of Forces, a particular soul.  The reincarnated soul still
won't be the same "person," since their old minds and memories -- the
Ethereal part of the old person -- will be gone.  However, there may be a
basic core of personality that remains similar.  Karakash has suggested
that a Remnant whose soul is rebuilt won't actually be the same person,
even though it looks the same and may even have many of its old memories
(depending on how trashed the celestial's Ethereal Forces were, I'd say).
So a reincarnated human would be a reverse-Remnant -- same core
personality, but no memories of its former life/lives.

The idea of Fates/Destinies carrying over from life to life may give us a
clue why some humans in IN are reincarnated after death, while others are
completely recycled back into the Symphony.  Perhaps some Fates/Destinies
are event-specific, and *can't* be repeated endlessly.  Those people might
then be disbanded and recycled upon death, if their Fate/Destiny is not
met.  Or perhaps the distinction is based more on the human's own actions.
Someone who has at least made progress in one direction or another may be
reincarnated, while someone who went through life with completely untapped
potential is recycled.  Or some combination of the two may be in operation.


Stacy Stroud
sstroud@uky.campus.mci.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 10:14:42 -0400
From: johnk@ascc01.ascc.lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC)
Subject: Re: IN> Questions

On Oct 6,  4:33pm, Elizabeth McCoy wrote:
> Subject: Re: IN> Questions
> At 2:21 PM -0600 10/5/97, John L Veazey wrote:
> >1> How many negative hits do mortal characters get?  Celestials get
> >   Vessel level x Strength.  So do mortals just get Strength?
>
> I would probably say Strength + any Toughness = the "negative
> hits" that a human can take.

	That's the way it's in the FAQ (which is FINALLY up for
real!  No more weird server problems!  No excuses!)

>
> >2> If mortals don't get vessels, why does Mother Wilkinson, a
> >   Bodhisattva (pg 14 Night Music) have a Vessel: Human/2; or are
> >   Bodhisattvas an exception & have vessels?
>
> She's a Saint, and therefore has a vessel. (It's not quite reincarnation,
> y'see...)

	Exactly.

>
> >3> If a vessel of a celestial dies,
> >a> if he has another vessel can he automatically shift to another
> >   vessel or must he blow the required essence to shift?
>
> He needs to blow the essence, and has to do it before the
> vessel he's currently in gets fully toasted (which is what
> drops him into Trauma...).  If he has a body-bag, he just
> wakes up in that.
>
> >b> if he can shift to another vessel, what happens to the dead
> >   vessel?  Is it still dead and lying where it died or does it go
> >   back to its potential existence?
>
> If he makes the shift in time (with the old vessel now dying or
> dead if a hit landed while he was shifting), then the old
> vessel is in "potentiality."

	Yup.  Unless someone has some trick that allows them
to keep functioning _AFTER_ their vessel 'dies', they just drop
into Trauma.  (Kyrios, Malakim, and Shedim are an exception
here.)  The only current trick (which Elizabeth mentioned) that
lets you avoid this is a Body Bag.  YMMV according to the wishes
of the GM!



- -- 
 ___________________________________________________
/                                                   \
|John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) |
|           (919)380-4629                            |
|                                                    |
| The power to tax involves the power to destroy.    |
|         -Chief Justice Marshall                    |
\___________________________________________________/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 09:21:54 -0500 (CDT)
From: Dorothy Bixler <mudmh10@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu>
Subject: Re: IN> The Cthulhu Mythos in In Nomine

On Wed, 8 Oct 1997, Earl Wajenberg wrote:

> Dorothy Bixler wrote:
> 
> > And now for tonights conspiracy-
> [...]
> > So my conspiracy theory is, sometime after Beleth gained control of 
> > her side of the Marches, Nyarlathotep killed her off and assumed her 
> > form as one of his 1000
> 
> Why bother with the celestial murder? Why not just have "Nyarlathotep"
> and "Beleth" be two names for the same being?
> 
> Earl W.
> 
It makes the events that occured before Beleth fell a little more tricky
to explain.  Although I guess that it could be set up as Nyar either a)
knew the future or b) was plotting to take out Blandaine through Beleth
when Lucifer came up and offered princess-hood (and decided that that was
the better of the two options.  Actually, now that I think about it,
option b) is a lot more of Nyar's style.  

Then again, the world may never know.  I guess we could ask Nyar... :)
         *Dorothy Michelle Bixler * mudmh10@ecom.ecn.bgu.edu*

"Gidget, have you been laying with the Horned One again?"
                               -MST3K's Mike from "The Thing the Couldn't Die"
        

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 10:51:40 -0400
From: Elizabeth McCoy <emccoy@nh.ultranet.com>
Subject: IN> Archangel Beth pictures...

Pictures of the Archangel of Archives/Demon Princess of Line Editing.
http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/articles/AB.html

(Or go to the INC and add in the "AB.html" part, if I've mangled
"articles." There aren't any other links to it.)

And for anyone whose Need is fulfilled by these pictures...

...you owe me.  };)




- --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com  In Nomine Line Editor
GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 11:30:09 -0400
From: Elizabeth McCoy <emccoy@nh.ultranet.com>
Subject: Re: IN> Questions

At 10:14 AM -0400 10/8/97, John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote:
>On Oct 6,  4:33pm, Elizabeth McCoy wrote:
>> Subject: Re: IN> Questions
>> At 2:21 PM -0600 10/5/97, John L Veazey wrote:
>> >1> How many negative hits do mortal characters get?  Celestials get
>> >   Vessel level x Strength.  So do mortals just get Strength?
>>
>> I would probably say Strength + any Toughness = the "negative
>> hits" that a human can take.
>
>	That's the way it's in the FAQ (which is FINALLY up for
>real!  No more weird server problems!  No excuses!)

<thumbs up>

>> >2> If mortals don't get vessels, why does Mother Wilkinson, a
>> >   Bodhisattva (pg 14 Night Music) have a Vessel: Human/2; or are
>> >   Bodhisattvas an exception & have vessels?
>>
>> She's a Saint, and therefore has a vessel. (It's not quite reincarnation,
>> y'see...)
>
>	Exactly.

<mutters "BastIwishI'dbeenLEthenthough" under her breath>




- --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com  In Nomine Line Editor
GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 10:56:41 -0400
From: johnk@ascc01.ascc.lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC)
Subject: Re: IN> (Fwd) A Mercurians Logo

> Oooooh. Stop that. *Now* you make me want to have these things. Imagine:
> Wearing a tie with the "Gabriel" pin, and nothing else. Leave them
> wondering if you can detect *their* kind of cruelty, or just make your
> hands glow green...

	Beeeeeeeth!  Will you please stop that?  I try to answer my
email and you keep distracting me with all these images...  ;)



- -- 
 ___________________________________________________
/                                                   \
|John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) |
|           (919)380-4629                            |
|                                                    |
| The power to tax involves the power to destroy.    |
|         -Chief Justice Marshall                    |
\___________________________________________________/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 11:28:04 -0400
From: johnk@ascc01.ascc.lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC)
Subject: Re: IN> My theory on Revelations.

> * Metaverse is down, while it gets the GURPS system put in.  It
> should be back by the end of October - see http:\\www.metaverse.com
> Yay!

	You want to _really_ confuse someone?  Give them a URL
that looks right but has backslashes instead of slashes.  =)
	The second most confusing thing is to give _almost_
the proper URL!

	http://www.metaverse.net


	(Now, back to regularly scheduled armageddon...)



- -- 
 ___________________________________________________
/                                                   \
|John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) |
|           (919)380-4629                            |
|                                                    |
| The power to tax involves the power to destroy.    |
|         -Chief Justice Marshall                    |
\___________________________________________________/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 11:03:42 -0400
From: johnk@ascc01.ascc.lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC)
Subject: Re: IN> Short Jean Thoughts

On Oct 3,  7:28pm, Walter Milliken wrote:
> Subject: Re: IN> Short Jean Thoughts
> >"Nuke Hell" was using "nuke" in the colloquial sense of "whup ass".  If
> >Jean is massively ahead of Vapula in Technology, the edge involved should
> >make demons pretty ineffective.
>
> I understood it that way, but used an obvious example.

	I seem to remember an amusing story by R.A.H. that took the
tack that natural law and established law had their roles reversed
in Hell.  Established law (made by Lucifer and possibly God ) was
unchangeable and inarguable.  'Natural' law could be changed by the
whim of whoever had power.  In this vein, I don't think it's unreasonable
for a Superior to say, "Nice gun.  Doesn't work here.  Spiked axes,
as my minions are about to demonstrated, DO though."
	I'd be williing to say that the home ground advantage is
enormous in Heaven _or_ Hell, technology or no!



- -- 
 ___________________________________________________
/                                                   \
|John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) |
|           (919)380-4629                            |
|                                                    |
| The power to tax involves the power to destroy.    |
|         -Chief Justice Marshall                    |
\___________________________________________________/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 11:19:56 -0400
From: johnk@ascc01.ascc.lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC)
Subject: Re: [LONG FLUFF] Prince of a guy (was IN> How I See Demons)

On Oct 3,  7:13pm, Robert Knop wrote:
> Subject: Re: [LONG FLUFF] Prince of a guy (was IN> How I See Demons)
> > David, Prince of Guys
>
> This was very amusing.  I laughed.
>
> The only objection I have: would Babes really be a Word of an Archangel?
> I've seen much evidence of diabolical behavoir on their part....

	I tend to agree.  Most stereotypical 'babes' seem to be vain
and foolish creatures.  The ones who are pretty and _nice_ should
probably belong in a different category.






	[Off-color joke warning!]



	A slut is someone who will sleep with anyone.
	A bitch is someone who will sleep with anyone but me!  ;)




	[/Off-color joke]



- -- 
 ___________________________________________________
/                                                   \
|John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) |
|           (919)380-4629                            |
|                                                    |
| The power to tax involves the power to destroy.    |
|         -Chief Justice Marshall                    |
\___________________________________________________/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 11:14:19 -0400
From: johnk@ascc01.ascc.lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC)
Subject: IN> The new FAQ... back at last!

	Some weirdnesses caused the FAQ to vanish.  In the
interim, the kind and talented mistress of the web over at SJG
temporarily put one of the older versions up.  As soon as I got
back from my conference (this morning, to be exact), I resent
the darn thing.  A lot of clarifications made it in there,
plus some new things that have been lurking, waiting, listening
for a sign from the UberSuperiors.
	I'll be posting it on here... beware, for it is
getting VERY large.  Not that this should be a sign that In
Nomine had that many errors... au contraire!  But you can only
fit so much into a book and some things weren't as well detailed
as they could have been.
	Which reminds me of another point... the Angelic Players
Guide[1] is coming out fairly soon now.  Some parts of it are in
flux, but quite a bit of stuff from the FAQ will make its way
into that book (and its companion, the Infernal Players Guide).  This
leaves me with two options:
	Keep the FAQ exactly as it is (except for new questions).
Or break it off into sections when the APG/IPG come out into questions
that are answered by the new books and those that aren't.  Mind you
the second option will take a LOT of time and therefore may not
happen for months and months.  Whaddya think?




Footnotes
[1] Not its actual name...  ;)



- -- 
 ___________________________________________________
/                                                   \
|John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) |
|           (919)380-4629                            |
|                                                    |
| The power to tax involves the power to destroy.    |
|         -Chief Justice Marshall                    |
\___________________________________________________/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 11:30:54 -0400 (EDT)
From: Gregory Littmann <gmlittmn@email.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: IN> What do we mean when we say "evil"?

>
> 
> A point I *would* like to make is this:
> 
> Damned souls are in Hell for a *reason*.  They are evil - not just 
> kinda bad,

Where do kinda bad people go?

> but really *evil* - they have met their Fate.  Hell is 
> their punishment,

  Quite apart from the fact that torture is not a fit punishment for
anything, no-one in hell did anything *infinitely* evil, yet they are to
receive *infinite punishment*.  That's infinitely disproportionate and
infinitely unjust.

> and somehow I don't see demons torturing them for 
> resources as being so horrible.

  Torture is horrible PERIOD.  If torture isn't wrong, I don't know what
is.

Greg.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 11:39:30 -0400
From: johnk@ascc01.ascc.lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC)
Subject: Re: IN> The Angel of Etiquette

	CooooOOOOOoooooolness!  Good job, David!


- -- 
 ___________________________________________________
/                                                   \
|John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) |
|           (919)380-4629                            |
|                                                    |
| The power to tax involves the power to destroy.    |
|         -Chief Justice Marshall                    |
\___________________________________________________/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 11:33:12 -0400
From: johnk@ascc01.ascc.lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC)
Subject: Re: IN> On playing demons

>         But...it's the fact that they /can/ trash people's lives that gets
> me. I'm going to stop beating this horse, as I have come up with at least
> one demon I could actually play (Ibadim) and was having fun thoughts about a
> Calabite who regularly gets abused by his own servant...:) Anyway, I just
> don't like how Mr. Evil Shedim can step in for all of five minutes and screw
> your life up forever. Squicky indeed.

	That was pretty much the whole idea (though the timescale is
a bit compressed).  Shedim were supposed to be the 'demonic possesors'
from history and pre-history that would enter beings and make them
do awful things.  Many, many religions have the concept of an evil
spirit that would possess someone and make them do things.  Insane
asylums (to use a purposely non-PC term) are filled with people that
claim voices urged them toward evil or bizarre actions.  In the In
Nomine universe, who's to say that they are all wrong?


- -- 
 ___________________________________________________
/                                                   \
|John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) |
|           (919)380-4629                            |
|                                                    |
| The power to tax involves the power to destroy.    |
|         -Chief Justice Marshall                    |
\___________________________________________________/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 11:35:49 -0400 (EDT)
From: Gregory Littmann <gmlittmn@email.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: IN> On playing demons

> >> > For some demons, it works on balance of fears.  Demons can either go
> >> > along with it, and save their hides, or try to change sides, and 
> >> > risk getting smoked by *both* sides.
> >> > 
> >> > Does this make these demons good?  No.  But they aren't all evil - 
> >> > just cowardly (with good cause) and selfish.
> >> 
> >>   Selfish to an amazing degree.  Just think about what they are 
> >> willing to do to us again and again to save their own hides. 
> >
> >That's the situation they are in - use and abuse the monkeys, or face 
> >death.  In a similar situation, would you choose to protect a monkey 
> >for a few moments with your *life*?
> 
> And remember -- *demons* don't get no "afterlife." If they're
> destroyed, they're destroyed. Nothing left, nada, just some
> tattered Forces that get recycled in the Symphony.

I don't understand how you can compare death with an eternity of torture.
Death is only negatively bad - it only sucks because of the good things
that you miss out on.  But an eternity of torture, on the other hand, is
the worst possible thing that can happen to someone.  Note also that the
intensity of the pleasures that the demons miss out on are in now way comparible in
intensity to the suffering of a victem of torture.
 > 
> >> "I vas just followink orders" is a pretty lousy excuse.
> >
> >It's not just orders - it's life or death in a very permanent way, 
> >with *no* higher reward for being noble.

There are more reasons to do what is right than just that you will be
*rewarded*.
> 
> Right. Or, life, or a very painful and protracted death, with no
> higher reward, etc. One can start to feel sorry for those critters.

  I feel *sorry* for anyone caught up in the Nazi heirarchy.  I *don't*
excuse what they did.

Greg.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 12:31:08 -0400
From: johnk@ascc01.ascc.lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC)
Subject: Re: Did Uriel have help (Was: Re: IN> IN in other settings)

On Oct 6,  7:35am, Alexander Shearer wrote:
> Subject: Did Uriel have help (Was: Re: IN> IN in other settings)
>
> >I was talking to people on the weekend who were running a campaign set
> >in Arthurian Britain, at the time of Uriel's rampage... sounded like it
> >was working well.
> >
>         Did Uriel just go off all on his own, or were all the servants of
> Purity involved in the mythic genocide? This isn't really answered in
> Laurence's description.

	He ordered and his servants obeyed.  In the expanded Laurence
writeup they mention that some are _still_ trying to finish the
purification...



- -- 
 ___________________________________________________
/                                                   \
|John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) |
|           (919)380-4629                            |
|                                                    |
| The power to tax involves the power to destroy.    |
|         -Chief Justice Marshall                    |
\___________________________________________________/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 12:36:31 -0400
From: johnk@ascc01.ascc.lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC)
Subject: Re: IN> How I See Demons - Sidenote

On Oct 6,  1:34pm, tom timberlake wrote:
> Subject: Re: IN> How I See Demons - Sidenote
> Donald G Bixler wrote:
> >
>
> > > - Em, Demon of Playing IN Backwards
> >
> > Hey!  Them's fightin' Words.  You're cutting in on my turf. ='p ;'}
>
> I still want to know: how do you fit the book on the turntable and get
> it to stay there? *g,d,r*

	Remember those 'flexi-disks' that you could print on thing
plastic and were fairly cheap?  (They usually came in a magazine
or something similar.)  I was thinking that a _coooooool_ insert
into a magazine would some some of mood music CD if it could
be done cheaply enough.  Unfortunately it is kinda difficult
(without a computer and the proper hardware/software setup) to
play a CD backwards!



- -- 
 ___________________________________________________
/                                                   \
|John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) |
|           (919)380-4629                            |
|                                                    |
| The power to tax involves the power to destroy.    |
|         -Chief Justice Marshall                    |
\___________________________________________________/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 18:40:55 +0100
From: "cd skogsberg" <cd@alfakonsult.se>
Subject: Re: IN> What do we mean when we say "evil"?

Gregory Littmann wrote:
 
> > A point I *would* like to make is this:
> > 
> > Damned souls are in Hell for a *reason*.  They are evil - not just 
> > kinda bad,
> 
> Where do kinda bad people go?

Heck. To their everlasting (sorta) darnation.

Didn't you know?

>   Torture is horrible PERIOD.  If torture isn't wrong, I don't know
>   what is.

2+2=5.

cd
ObGeekJoke[1]:
#define SIX (1+5)
#define NINE (8+1)
main()
{
    printf ("%d times %d is %d\n", 1+5, 8+1, 1+5 * 8+1);
}
...Which explains how Douglas Adams Got 6*9=42.
[1]: By Dan Johnson. Reprinted without permission.
- --
"And it has come to pass that the Lord of the Woods, being ... Seven
and nine, down the onyx steps ... (tri)butes to Him in the Gulf, Aza-
thoth, He of Whom Thou hast taught us marv(els ..."
 - H. P. Lovecraft, _The Whisperer in Darkness_

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 12:29:32 -0400
From: johnk@ascc01.ascc.lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC)
Subject: Re: IN> On Playing Evil

On Oct 6, 12:16am, Kingsley Lintz wrote:
> Subject: Re: IN> On Playing Evil
>
> > "The Japanese consume far more violent and depraved pornography than
> > we do [Ed - anybody who's seen hentai "tentacle sex" will agree,
> > here], and yet there is almost no rape reported there.  A woman is
> > twenty times more in danger of being raped in the US than she is in
> > Japan.  Why?  Because Japanese people are decent, civilized, and
> > intelligent."
> >      - George Carlin, Braindroppings
> 	Carlin doesn't know that much about Japan...there wasn't much rape
> reported in the US until it was considered a serious crime, and in much of
> the rest of the world (Southeast Asia and Japan specifically included), it
> still isn't.  {The statistically reported chance of a woman in the US
> being raped jumped phenomenally through the 20 year or so period when
> feminism was really taking hold...which has nothing to do with the actual
> rate it occurred, just how often it was reported and taken seriously.
> Particularly when you consider that in most of the US, it's legally
> possible to rape a wife; in the rest of the world, that's extremely rare.}

	In this case, Carlin is right.  The Japanese police are very
efficient (to the point that civil rights are routine stepped on).
While the percentage of rapes being reported in Japan is lower (due
to shame factors), the actual percentage of rapes is much, much
lower as well.
	Another good indicator of violence are murders.  These are
not 'hidable' the way a rape can be hidden and they have pheonmenally
low rates . . . verifiably low rates.  Rape is a crime of violence,
not sex, and all indicators shows that they have a lower rate of
violence overall.
	A few years ago, it was national news when a certain
murder came up.  Except for the rather bizarre circumstances,
it wouldn't have even rated a second-page mention in anything
but a local paper.  A man was smoking in a no-smoking area
(these are routinely ignored in Japan...) at a subway/train
terminal.  When he refused to comply an irate fellow commuter
kicked him to death with a well-placed high-kick to the head.
In the US, this would have been played for bizarreness/humor
value (it certainly would've gotten on Letterman and Leno!), but
in Japan it was shocking because it was a death!

	To bring this back around to In Nomine... (in case you
forgot what newsgroup you were on.) Japan must be very frustrating
to the more violent Princes, although Nybbas must get a kick out
of the place!


- -- 
 ___________________________________________________
/                                                   \
|John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) |
|           (919)380-4629                            |
|                                                    |
| The power to tax involves the power to destroy.    |
|         -Chief Justice Marshall                    |
\___________________________________________________/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 11:46:35 -0500 (CDT)
From: Martin Leslie Leuschen <martinl@rice.edu>
Subject: IN> Andre's Vessels

Of course it has a Female Vessel.  But you forgot the German Shepard, 
Arabian Stallion, Sheep, Squid, Anaconda, Ostrich, Peacock, Manatee, 
Vibrator, milking machine...

Sometimes I disturb myself.

                           <shudder>,
                                Martin Leuschen
                                martinl@rice.edu

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 12:54:21 -0400 (EDT)
From: Emily Dresner <zenith@umich.edu>
Subject: Re: IN> What do we mean when we say "evil"?

> > A point I *would* like to make is this:
> > 
> > Damned souls are in Hell for a *reason*.  They are evil - not just 
> > kinda bad,
> 
> Where do kinda bad people go?


My house.  And they keep drinking all the beer.

> 
> > but really *evil* - they have met their Fate.  Hell is 
> > their punishment,
> 
>   Quite apart from the fact that torture is not a fit punishment for
> anything, no-one in hell did anything *infinitely* evil, yet they are to
> receive *infinite punishment*.  That's infinitely disproportionate and
> infinitely unjust.

Well, I do agree.  In my game, everyone gets recycled eventually.  Even
Hitler.  It's just a longer wait for some, and sometimes that wait really 
bites. I just have them Well Entertained while Waiting.


> > and somehow I don't see demons torturing them for 
> > resources as being so horrible.
> 
>   Torture is horrible PERIOD.  If torture isn't wrong, I don't know what
> is.

Have you ever seen milk gone bad?  And is turning slightly green?  That's
pretty horrible, too.


- -Em, the friendly neighborhood Balseraph.  Hell is fun, kiddies.  Really.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 13:07:55 -0400
From: "Chuck Ryan" <cryan@us.bnsmc.com>
Subject: IN> backwards

Out of curiousity, how many other people play (or want to play) IN
backwards?  So far, we have three (Oops, Em, and me).


I not only play it backwards I play it on an old 45.!

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 13:10:30 -0500
From: Earl Wajenberg <earlw@mc.com>
Subject: Re: IN> What do we mean when we say "evil"?

Gregory Littmann wrote:

> Where do kinda bad people go?

IN's hell doesn't exhibit this as much, yet, but Dante's Inferno has 
a wide range of "degrees" of damnation.  The topmost level, Limbo, 
is actually quite pleasant, and lacks only the vision of God.  

Earl W.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 13:03:03 -0400
From: johnk@ascc01.ascc.lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC)
Subject: IN> Why we have Canon (also what IS Canon?)

	A lot of people (okay, okay maybe just a few) seem
to have a mistaken idea about what Canon is for and why it
exists at all.  Hopefully this email will clarify things...

What is Canon?
	Canon answers are the things that the Netrep (John Karakash),
the Line Editor (Elizabeth McCoy) or Steve Jackson
(Steve Jackson) have decided are the 'official' rules for the
In Nomine universe (occasionally with contributions from other
sources that have been given the thumbs up by one of the
three of us).
	You don't have to use the Canon in your campaign.  In
fact, I strongly encourage you to ignore it if you don't like
the way it works!  In Nomine is flexible enough to have an
amazing variety of worlds... many of them created by just
looking at the printed rules and Canon and saying "What if
things were actually like _this_?"

Why is _our_ stuff Canon?
	Well, the three of us (plus all the big brains that
lurk behind In Nomine) think about In Nomine.  A lot. A
_whole_ lot.  All are experienced writers/editors/designers
that have proven themselves in one way or another.  Most
Canon answers have been past the gauntlet of this group at
least once (occasionally revisited when a new person joins
up with a new perspective on things) and has passed muster.
	Plus, Steve and Co. publish the game, dontchaknow?  ;)

Why have Canon at all?
	One very good reason is so that we are all on the
same sheet of music, so to speak.  If you join a new In
Nomine group or play in a tournament, it's nice to know
what the 'real' rules are... even if you usually don't
follow them yourself.
	Another is the fact that many people would like
official answers to certain questions so they don't have
to make them up themselves (and possibly risk contradiction
in case they forget a ruling).  Most, if not all, Canon
pronouncements are recorded in the FAQ as a semi-constantly
updated resource.
	While some Canon answers are simple extrapolations
of the existing rules (occasionally not-so-simple, I
might add...), others are basic statements about the foundations
of how the universe runs to allow the individual GMs out
there to make their _own_ extrapolations.  Also, this gives
a good jumping off point for "What if?" campaigns if you can
see why we picked our basic tenets to be one way or another.
	Canon answers have the tendency (good or bad) to make
the universe more consistent and understandable.  They provide
detail that isn't found in any of the books (otherwise why
have them at all?) and help fill in the gaps that will _always_
exist in any game system/world.




	Example of how to use Canon without _using_ it so
to speak:
	I play a bit of VtM now and then.  A friend and I
came up with vampire world based on the WoD(tm) to shake
up our friends.  Superficially, everything appeared like
the standard WoD, but in reality things were vastly different.
(Keep in mind that all the players are experienced Vampire
players and had certain knowledge and expectations about how
the universe worked.)  Instead of Vampires being a scourge
upon humanity, in reality they were supposed to be the guardians
against a huge dark spirit that wanted to consume the souls
of everyone on the planet.  They had forgotten their true
mission and were lost in delusion.  Eventually, the campaign
will end with either the PCs saving the world or letting it
fall to the Darkness.
	So starting with a simple, "What if Vampires are
supposed to be the _good_ guys rather than evil blood
suckers." we came up with a campaign vastly different from
any other out there.  While you don't have to modify your
In Nomine to this degree, it was only by knowing how the
'official' world worked that we could come up with an
off-the-wall idea.  Any "What if?" session with the rules
can lead to an entertaining adventure or campaign.  Also
remember that the answer to "What if?" could simply be the
Canon itself!  So you could have your players wondering
"What if God and Lucifer are one being?".  You may have
already decided to follow Canon on this, but _they_ don't
know that!



- -- 
 ___________________________________________________
/                                                   \
|John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) |
|           (919)380-4629                            |
|                                                    |
| The power to tax involves the power to destroy.    |
|         -Chief Justice Marshall                    |
\___________________________________________________/

------------------------------

End of in_nomine-digest V1 #393
*******************************

The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated.
All rights reserved.