From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sun Oct 12 12:59:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA02581 for ; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 12:59:50 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id MAA29397 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 12:45:52 -0500 Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 12:45:52 -0500 Message-Id: <199710121745.MAA29397@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #402 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Sunday, October 12 1997 Volume 01 : Number 402 In this digest: Re: IN> Raziel\Ghogiel [VERY LONG] Re: IN> On playing demons Re: IN> Raziel\Ghogiel [VERY LONG] IN> [GRISTLE] Secret agent Beleth Re: IN> Raziel\Ghogiel [VERY LONG] IN> Wrenchial, Demon of Amplifiers? [LONG!] Re: IN> Raziel\Ghogiel [VERY LONG] IN> Sacraments II Re: IN> [FLUFF] Superiors *in* the Movies Re: IN> Raziel\Ghogiel [VERY LONG] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 11:16:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Raziel\Ghogiel [VERY LONG] > Not bad. Very close to my own conception of Raziel. > > But there is an amusing (and rather intriguing ) typo below: > > >>>ARCANE KNOWLEDGE > > For two essense points, this attunement allows the caster to lay their > hands on a tomb, and learn everything that is held between the bindings.<<< > > "Hmmm.....yup, he's dead. Been dead a looong time too...." > Oh, hush. *thhhhpt* ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 09:33:28 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> On playing demons > > > the worst possible thing that can happen to someone. Note also that the > > > intensity of the pleasures that the demons miss out on are in now way > > > comparible in intensity to the suffering of a victem of torture. > > Actually, by your own point, they must be; demons have the > > potential to live forever, and thereby to experience *infinite* pleasure. > O.K.. Here we get into the tricky, but vital, area of comparing > the magnitude of infinites. It is mathematically difficult, but if you Believe me, after a few discussions on the Amber list about the nature of "infinite Shadow", I don't have -any- trouble with the concept of different orders of infinity. However, I will note again that I think the fair choice to consider for demons is weighed in at seeking infinite pleasure versus suffering infinite torture; they MIGHT be lucky enough to just be destroyed, but the Binding Attunement of Asmodeus suggests that there's more interest in capturing them and bringing them `home'...and I'll just take the wild stab that it's not for tea and crumpets. {Now, consider that the average Celestial has more Soul Points, and can therefor withstand more torture, than the average human, and the balance we're looking at isn't, "Haha, I'll seek pleasure for ten years and make this schmuck get tortured for ten years"; it's, "*whew*, I get to seek pleasure for ten years instead of being tortured for a hundred, if I just give them this poor schmuck for ten years.."} > > Beyond that, In Nomine's Hell DOESN'T torture human souls > > infinitely. > Not everywhere conducts intinite torture in the most brutal sense of the > word, nor is all the torture continuous. But torture is a big part of > the system in Hell. Prisoners in Nazi prison camps weren't always Again; re-read their descriptions. Only two of the Principalities are particularly concerned with torture AT ALL (Sheol and Tartarus); Abaddon's hunt-and-harvest program could also be counted, but is quite distinctly non-infinite. Otherwise, we have two realms that, if anything, appear to employ human souls the way most of Heaven does (Archive and Hades), two that could be awful if you were in the wrong place but are set up to give people the chance to work their way out (Gehenna and Stygia), and two that are quite distinctly noted as ENJOYABALE (Shal-Mari and Perdition). Obviously, that's going by the strict-Canon versions, and I can see where a lot of GM's would be more comfortable keeping Hell an evil, nasty place...but as the game is designed, your arguments on why all demons must be evil really only applies to Servitors of Fire, where Servitors of Death and Technology certainly get a few votes but have the option of `misguided'. Hell balances out to "Not a great place to live, but not THAT much worse than Earth"; and speaking from the perspective of a finite being, I've gotta point out that Nybbas's realm is the -only- eternity I can fathom staying `enjoyable' for any length of time..(No particular awareness, just a little pleasure-hookup.) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 11:36:52 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> Raziel\Ghogiel [VERY LONG] > > >>>ARCANE KNOWLEDGE > > For two essense points, this attunement allows the caster to lay their > > hands on a tomb, and learn everything that is held between the bindings.<<< > > "Hmmm.....yup, he's dead. Been dead a looong time too...." > Oh, hush. *thhhhpt* I dunno, I just kept going with it. "Been dead a looong time, too...he's looking back at you...sitting up...reaching out...his hand is around your throat. He's squeezing. Look, do you really need the Arcane Knowledge thing going here, or do you want to do something about this?" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 11:34:04 -0700 (PDT) From: nightgaunt@earthlink.net (Alexander Shearer) Subject: IN> [GRISTLE] Secret agent Beleth From Night Music: "A point of Essence is also generated any time a Servitor of Nightmares can make a promiscuous adult suffer through a "You have AIDS" dream." (p. 108, Night Music) Tarsum pulled her shades off as she stepped into the shaded confines of the cafe. The place was busy, as it should be on a windy fall day. She scanned the room. Nothing out of the ordinary. In the far corner, a young asian woman was tying her hair back as her coffee steamed its heat away in front of her. The shades went into a pocket as Tarsum crossed the room. "Hey Teresa. How's things?" Tarsum smiled as she sat down. Luriama's concern for the hiding the truth was endearing, in it's own way. "Just fine. How are you, Muriel?" Luri narrowed her eyes a bit -- perhaps the weight of irony on her assumed name had been a bit too heavy. The expression faded as she took a sip of coffee and replied. "Pretty well. I think I know where to find Horon." "That's good." Tarsum paused briefly in thought. "Need any help?" Luri shook her head. "Nah. He's too strung out to be a problem." Tarsum nodded. A few seconds of silence followed, then she spoke. "You know that guy I talked to you about last week? The mortal?" "Yeah." "Well, I didn't have to track him down. He turned himself in to me rather than run. He was just waiting there at his apartment...didn't look to good either. He told me he'd been waiting for me." Luri drank a bit more coffee. "Guilt catches up with some people, you know." Tarsum nodded. "Yeah, but that's not it. He'd been having awful nightmares, where he was being tortured by demons, or all his friends were, stuff like that. Classic Beleth." A moment passed, then Luri gave Tarsum a questioning look. "So?" "Well, it's just that...he probably saved himself by turning himself in. People usually dig their own graves as they try to escape, but he just may have a shot at things." Tarsum glanced over her shoulder at the counter, where a teenage girl clad mainly in black purchased some variant of espresso. "I've heard other stories like that, too. People get kicked back into line by dreams. They're scared straight." Luri's eyes narrowed again. "So what are you saying?" Tarsum shrugged. "Nothing, really." She flicked her wrist around, checking her watch. "I gotta go. Page me, all right?" "Sure." Luriama sat, alone at her table, watching her coffee cool. [End notes: Thoughts? Is this whole thing a bit oblique, or can people tell what's supposed to be happening here? Oh...it's "gristle" as a switch from all the "fluff" headers...:)] Alexander Shearer nightgaunt@earthlink.net gaunt@uclink4.berkeley.edu gir gissinig kisib tibir-ke e-ne su-tag-ga mu-un-ku ina pa-tar bi-ni rit-ti qur-qur-ri il-pu-tu-su nu-uk-ki-is (Cut the wrists of the smiths who touched him with a tamarisk knife!) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 17:47:16 -0400 From: John Dye Subject: Re: IN> Raziel\Ghogiel [VERY LONG] Emily Dresner wrote: > > > > I am officially working off a Geas to ArchAngel Beth. I promised this > > > stuff about a week ago, and because I was too burned out to program > > > anymore, I thought I would write instead. > > > > I KNEW she was a Lilim in disguise. The Malakim will be told! > > No, I was just working it off. I had gotten a favor, and now I paid it > back. The oncoming flamewar I smell in the air is a tribute to by true > Balseraph-hood. :) > > And please don't tell the Malakim. I'll have to call my Calabite buddies. Now there is a question. Can a geas be done by anyone, or just those in the know? > There is room for EVERYONE in Heaven...if you meet the > > standards. No, I don't know them either. > > But maybe they are printed in the Angelic Players Guide. :) *snicker* > > > So I split sorcery into two categories: > > > > > > 1. The learning and meditation of arcane knowledge to better > > > understand the human condition and it's relation to God. > > > > This is called religion. The Kabbalists were trying to take a short > > cut. > > That comes right out of one of my normal religion stuff I was reading, > actually. And there's meditation and debate on the Torah as well... > > When I wrote that, I was actually thinking about some of the Mystical > Taoist stuff I was exposed to in college. Just because the human > condition and the condition of God were pretty much one and the same > didn't mean that there wasn't some sort of "magic" that comes out of it. > (I jump up and down, scream "I-Ching", and giggle insanely.) Whatever works for you. What makes you think that the human condition and the Divine condition are anywhere near the same? There would be more common connections between us and a humpback whale. Maybe the Taoists said it, but they may have gotten it wrong. > > > > > 2. The learning of arcane knowledge to manipulate Creation and > > > to better further the private purposes of Man. > > > > > I think you missed the picture here. The initial humans created the > > spirits of the Marches from their hopes and fears. Being products of > > Man, these spirits were reasonably easily influenced by man when the > > proper spiritual levers were used. With Revelations about the nature of > > God and Lucifer were spread, these same levers were attempted against > > Celestials. Because of their fractured nature, they worked against > > demons. Unfortunately, most spells worked like this > > > > [snip] > > Correct. Which is WHY I slotted the Sorcery attunement and the whole nine > yards about it under the demon prince, and let all the OTO stuff that goes > with it to the normal Sorcerers. Is it fair to Damn a Wiccan? I know some > very nice ones, I would hope not. Wicca is a religion. They may or may not be able to do magic, but that is a side line. What they call magic may just be calling upon Divinity using their rituals. > Off topic, I spend alot of time staring at a computer. I sunk $85K > into this privelage. Have you ever read the WIRED article on > Technopagans? Well, do so, it's an interesting read. I am not one, but I > appreciate the standpoint. There is a certain amount of mysticism, > "sorcery", that goes into a really good hack, or a very nice piece of > code. It's a very zen thing in a very Gateless Gate source of the word. > There are arcane almost completely non-understandable languages involved, > arcane bizarre knowledge... and sometimes it's Good and helps mankind, and > sometime it makes the caster into a complete sociopath... > I don't know. Most hackers I've run into or heard about were all about a "me" thing; " 'I' can hack into AT&T", "'I've' been into the Pentegon Accounting Program". It's a big ego thing. Whether they use their skills to send funds to Mother Theresa, or set up a little retirement fund, it's still an "I'm clued in to this arcane stuff, you are part of the clueless herd". This is where that selfishness/ego comes in. Magic is about paying a price for knowledge/power. Hackers (to further the metaphor) spend endless hours and money to cut better code, to sink more tech into their boards, to get the hottest programs. It affects their outside social lives. They tend to be obsessives. Same with magic. Some ladies in white gowns sprinkling water to the four corners isn't magic; it's a person who gibbers with glee that he got a 1910 copy of Elminster's guide to Assyrian, so he can start deciphering why exactly he needs to sacrifice his girlfriend for a Mercedes Benz and an expense account. > I see a certain amount of science as attempting to "understand God". > Quantum Physics, CERTAINLY Mathematics, Astrophysics, Molecular > Pathology... all arcane languages, all strange knowledge, and > sometimes they fall under evil influence and become sociopaths. :) > > So I split Magic into two categories. Those who Summon Demons, make > cults, destroy lives... and those that learn how to do heart transplants, > and cure cancer. > > I don't think I missed the picture at all. But doctors, hackers, attorneys, Demi Moore, all paid a price for their power and fame. And they did it so they *could* have the power and fame. It was something they wanted beyond all other things. They got it. It was a "me" thing. This is not an evil thing, but it has everything to do with ego. A shaman was a very important man in Tribal history, second only to the chieftain. Talent was a key, but were you willing to pay the price... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 00:35:36 +0100 From: "cd skogsberg" Subject: IN> Wrenchial, Demon of Amplifiers? [LONG!] ...Or a human being? You decide, after reading this little narrative (reposted with permission): - ----begin quoted text---- Subject: Re: Music LARTs From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann) Date: 1997/01/03 Message-Id: <5aj6kf$nbd@scream.auckland.ac.nz> Newsgroups: alt.sysadmin.recovery rjones@coho.halcyon.com (Ry Jones) writes: >When I started working at Microsoft some years ago, I bought the >biggest, baddest jam box on the planet. Unfortunately, my >through-the-wall mate had the biggest, baddest stereo on the planet. >He and I would get into wars (Ice Cube versus Boston, Pink Floyd >versus Techno). Of course, since we sat at the epicenters of our >stereo blast, we only heard our own music. Everyone else on the hall, >though, heard a mash pounding through the wall. It got to the point >where our bosses' boss asked us to keep it down, so we did. Until >18:00, the designated 'loud time'. Then we cut loose remorselessly. Any discussion of musical(?) larts should probably cover Stuart the Nice's amplifier collection. His latest amplifier, FrankenAmp III, is 300W/channel, the yet-to-be-built FrankenAmp N currently consists mainly of power supplies and heatsinks. The PSU weighs about half a ton (that's the carrying capacity of the pickup we used to move it, and we nearly overloaded it), the cooling is by six synchronous 240V fans (Stuarts fan club) arranged in a wind tunnel by the PSU. The total rating is around 10 kW. He's also designed some switchmode (class D) amps using milspec MOSFETs which cost around $200 each (but he somehow managed to get them cheap). His entire room is filled with speakers (the Wall of Sound), the biggest is a 16" Altech Lansing (this is supposed to mean something to people like Stuart the Nice) speaker which can best be described as Truly Frightening. Then he has 4 pairs of large speaker cases of about 100W rating each including various famous names which are supposed to mean things[-1]. The entire side of his room is one solid mass of speakers. Some time ago Stuart set up Frankenamp and some of his speakers at the end of the large living-room type area on one side of his house, so that they were directly opposite the double entrance doors. We walked in, and saw this type of altar of sound at the other end of the room, with the huge Altech Lansing bass in the middle (this thing is HUGE and weighs a ton), and the two stacked columns of boxes at the sides. One of the guys immediately ran to the Altech and knelt before it and threw his arms around it and started kissing it. It was a most moving sight. Later that night he started the fans and fired up Frankenamp. The quality (and quantity) of the sound was quite amazing. Any other home stereo systems I've heard sound like toys by comparison (the Altech alone is bigger than most complete systems, including the speakers). OTOH Frankenamp really isn't a stereo system, it really is a genuine musical lart. Anyway, three examples of the systems use as a musical(?) lart: 1. During a housewarming for a friend in a somewhat dodgy area of south Auckland, there was an interesting Mexican standoff between four of the friends neighbours sitting on the terrace next door smoking joints, and us sitting on a sofa on the terrace staring at them. We had FrankenAmp set up (but with only two speakers) playing something obnoxious. After about an hour of this assault the neighbours decided to beat a retreat. 2. Stuart went up north with a friend of his and eight nurses[0]. They stayed at some campground which had a couple of obnoxious idiots playing moderately loud[1] AC/DC and disturbing other people there. Stuart fired up the engine on his pickup[2] to act as a generator, set up the Wall of Sound, and played Black Sabbath at them. They (predictably) turned the volume up. Stuart turned the volume up. They turned the volume up. Stuart turned the volume up. They ran out of up. The next day they packed and left. 3. Once while staying with some friends he was woken at about 8am on Saturday by some hymns being sung in the church next door. They put the speakers outside the window, fired up Frankenamp, and played "Disturbing the Priest" at them until everything next door had stopped moving. Peter (whose audio capabilities go as far as listening to CD's with $19.95 headphones plugged into a CDROM drive). [-1] He once tried to explain the theory of speakers to me, but lost me when he started talking about hollowing out your head to place a point sound source inside it and constructing alternate realities for some reason which escapes me. [0] Don't ask. [1] Anything is only moderately loud compared to Frankenamp. [2] The only thing big enough to move the Wall of Sound. - ----end quoted text---- Make sure to check DejaNews for other stories of Stuart the Nice, he seems (to me at least) like one of those persons who live life to the fullest! cd Part-time Calabite of Furfur - -- "And it has come to pass that the Lord of the Woods, being ... Seven and nine, down the onyx steps ... (tri)butes to Him in the Gulf, Aza- thoth, He of Whom Thou hast taught us marv(els ..." - H. P. Lovecraft, _The Whisperer in Darkness_ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 23:13:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Raziel\Ghogiel [VERY LONG] > > No, I was just working it off. I had gotten a favor, and now I paid it > > back. The oncoming flamewar I smell in the air is a tribute to by true > > Balseraph-hood. :) > > > > And please don't tell the Malakim. I'll have to call my Calabite buddies. > > Now there is a question. Can a geas be done by anyone, or just those in > the know? > I wouldn't know, ask the resident Lilim. After this point, I'm bowing out of the argument. There is no way there is ever going to be an agreement. The part of my brain that registers as "engineer", even when I deny it, will never accept that all of science and the quest for knowledge is a complete ego trip. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 02:26:37 -0400 (EDT) From: CeIestiaI7@aol.com Subject: IN> Sacraments II Tebaliah Angel of The Water Elohite Master of Destiny "Adrienne is such a pretty name. Tell me how did you ever think of it?" Tebaliah asked as she cooed at the baby through the incubator. "Actually we've been calling her that since...wait. We haven't even told the nurses! How did you know?" the child's father demanded. Tebaliah shrugged, "She looks like an Adrienne. Tell me...Patrick isn't it? Have you and Lucy thought of baptizing her?" Pat shrugged and ran his hand through his hair, "Honestly we haven't had time to think about it. I mean, all the test they've been doing, the doctors in and out. You know its just one more thing. I don't know if she could take the ceremony. Besides, we aren't particularly religious people. God and I aren't exactly on a first name basis." Tebaliah took the man's hand and smiled gently, "Oh I don't know. The ceremony is very simple. Most children sleep through it. And as for you and Him...well, maybe your daughter could facilitate a meeting. I mean, He'll be there too, at the baptism - in Spirit" she added. A nurse walked in and checked the heart monitor at the child's incubator. She looked up to Pat and smiled, "Pat, would you like to hold your daughter?" Pat took the infant from the open crib and held her nervously. He kissed her forehead and wept quietly, "You just got here and now they tell me that you'll be leaving us soon," He looked over at the elohite, "can you arrange for her to be baptized today?" "Of course," said Tebaliah, "I'll speak with Him immediately." Corporeal Forces - 3 Strength 4 Agility 8 Ethereal Forces - 5 Intelligence 10 Precision 10 Celestial Forces - 4 Will 8 Perception 8 Vessels: Human/2 (Adult Female); Human/2 (Adult Male) Role: Nurse/1, Priest/2 Skills: Artistry (Quilting)/4, Knowledge (Child Development)/3, Medicine/6, Singing/4 Songs: Healing (Corporeal/1, Ethereal/3, Celestial/3), Light (Corporeal/2), Tongues (Ethereal/6) Attunements: Elohite of Destiny, Ofanim of Destiny, Divine Destiny, Divine Logic Special Rites: Bathe in a river for an hour (+1), Bathe a newborn infant (+2) Few of the Host are as compassionate as Tebaliah. She is gentle and caring to a fault, for her charges are the newest and brightest hope for the Symphony at large. Her Word is the Water. It is the Water of Life, the Water Which Purifies, the Water Which Quenches the Soul. Of all the Sacraments, Tebaliah's Word remains the strongest. Few children these days are not presented to the Almighty in some manner or another. The Word of the Water is flexible, in that any similar ceremony of presentation fulfills the spirit of the Word (a bris, for example). Tebaliah was created by Yves several centuries ago. Soon after her introduction into celestial society, she was given her Word. Older, "more deserving" angelics were simply outraged that such an upstart would be given a Word of such import. Laurence in particular, was furious with Yves, for Yves, Laurence believed, knew full well of Laurence's intention to petition one of his own Host to the Council. The young angel took all the attention in stride and performed her duty most notably. Today she is most honored among the Word-bound. It is by her ministrations that young souls are led into the Flock. With experience, she has learned to identify those infants with the potential to become Soldiers of God. These favored children are immediately given a cherubic guardian of the Water until they reach they age of Confirmation (for most, this is at age 13). Of course, not all with this potential can be afforded such a blessing, only those selected by Tebaliah herself. Tebaliah has been haunting the darkened halls of the Infant ICU as of late. The increase of infants born with substance addictions, and subsequent health concerns has hastened the need for the cleansing of the Original Sin from their young souls. She doesn't necessarily buy the Original Sin gig, but touting the Party Line seems to keep the hard-liners off her back. - ----------------------------------------------------- Scott Mercurian Friend of Flowers, Angel of Chilling Out ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 07:13:21 -0500 (CDT) From: "Austin G. Loomis" Subject: Re: IN> [FLUFF] Superiors *in* the Movies I just had to add my US$0.02 on this issue, in completed ignorance of whether anyone else is still talking about it. In my considered opinion, at least one Demon Prince ought to be voiced by one of my favorite obsessions, Tony Jay (best known in this country as the voice of Judge Frollo in _Disney's The Hunchback of Notre Dame_, and as Megabyte on Mainframe Entertainment's _ReBoot_). In my considered and drooling opinion, he'd make a bang-up Asmodeus, or Kronos, or even Malphas. Austin G. "Cultured tones" Loomis, MiSTie #84029 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 13:36:12 -0400 From: John Dye Subject: Re: IN> Raziel\Ghogiel [VERY LONG] Emily Dresner wrote: > > > > No, I was just working it off. I had gotten a favor, and now I paid it > > > back. The oncoming flamewar I smell in the air is a tribute to by true > > > Balseraph-hood. :) > > > > > > And please don't tell the Malakim. I'll have to call my Calabite buddies. > > > > Now there is a question. Can a geas be done by anyone, or just those in > > the know? > > > > I wouldn't know, ask the resident Lilim. > > After this point, I'm bowing out of the argument. There is no way there > is ever going to be an agreement. The part of my brain that registers as > "engineer", even when I deny it, will never accept that all of science and > the quest for knowledge is a complete ego trip. I am willing to do so too. But to be fair, you overgeneralized. I didn't say all scientists. I specifically targeted groups who, in general, have specialized applications, and more then their fair share of egomaniacs. Or to put it more generalized, anyone can learn to do a tarot reading, but to be the "Carl Sagan" of sorcery takes ego. ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #402 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.