From owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Tue Oct 21 13:04:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA28478 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 13:04:08 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id MAA28760 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 12:05:31 -0500 Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 12:05:31 -0500 Message-Id: <199710211705.MAA28760@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #415 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@LISTS.IO.COM Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, October 21 1997 Volume 01 : Number 415 In this digest: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Gabriel, Archangel of Fire Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Vapula Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] The Seed of Hope: An Introduction to Dark Victory Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Andrealphus Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Brief Superiors Summary and Notes Re: IN> Raziel/Ghogiel Re: IN> [FFULF] New Demonette: Tizzy! Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Brief Superiors Summary and Notes Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Gabriel, Archangel of Fire Re: IN> [FFULF] New Demonette: Tizzy! IN> Interventions question Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Gabriel, Archangel of Fire Re: IN> [FFULF] New Demonette: Tizzy! Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Brief Superiors Summary and Notes Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #412 Re: IN> Lilith Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Vapula Re: IN> Pagan Soldiers Re: IN> Pagan Soldiers Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Vapula Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Gabriel, Archangel of Fire Re: IN> Raziel/Ghogiel Re: IN> Pagan Soldiers Re: IN> Pagan Soldiers ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 00:23:44 -0500 (CDT) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Gabriel, Archangel of Fire (Listings in the writeup will only be included for material changed from that found in the IN Rulebook.) * * * * * Gabriel broods at the corner of the table, toying with her General Tso's Chicken, not even making a pretense of acting inconspicuous. Around her, her so-called allies bicker and natter about inconsequential things. She sticks a forkful of the spicy dish into her mouth, tasting nothing, caring nothing for it. Her mouth opens, and words fall out; "Bring unto him the meek and lowly, that he may bless them." The others stop their talking, drop their forks. The demon Andrealphus wants to know what the words mean. Gabriel doesn't care. The Lord doesn't tell her what things mean. He tells her what to say. He walks with her all the time, watching over her. One day, he'll order her to slay the wicked again, she hopes... but for now, he says to listen to Yves, and for Him and Yves she accepts the demons' presence. But when she is strong again, then the wicked shall perish by her terrible swift sword. And God shall smile on her and say, "Well done, my faithful servant." God loves her. God watches over her. God watches over everything, He sees the wickedness, and soon He shall loose His servant against the wicked and the cruel. Then everything will be all right again, everything will be simple like it was before. Gabriel scoops up another bite of the Chinese before her. Hmm. Delicious. * * * * * Gabriel and Belial, with the vast majority of their Servitors, met in the Battle of the Apocalypse in the most savage part of the battle on any front. When the battle ended, a handful of angels and a severely battered Gabriel held the field, whereas none of Belial's demons, or Belial herself, remained. Unfortunately, other demonic forces came, and Gabriel had to flee, sending her forces to seek allies and reinforcements. Gabriel fled from battlefield to battlefield, seeking others to regroup with... and finding Heaven lost, Paradise vanished, Earth a shambles and Hell holding many of her Angels in its pits of torture. Weeping bitterly at the betrayal of her hopes, she fled into the deepest parts of the Earth, tending her wounds in the fires of the molten core. Eli came, and begged her for help; she turned him away. Yves came, telling her of their regrouping in Heaven, and she refused to hear him. The world had betrayed her; she wanted nothing more to do with it. And then the Divine Spark opened itself to her, and she knew God had not forsaken her. Whereas Gabriel was unstable before, she is manic-depressive now. She speaks only in grudging single sentences at councils of the Preservers, when she can be coaxed from Earth's depths or her liberated Cathederal in Heaven. Her wounds are as yet unhealed, her Forces much reduced, and her power levels in general not much above a middle-level Worded angel. However, she retains her Archangel standing- because, at least in her own mind, the Almighty still talks to her. More often than not, the words Gabriel speaks come out of nowhere, in response to nothing in particular, extremely cryptic and obtuse... but, as always proves the case, not only relevant but -vital- to the cause at hand. The only time she is vehement and outspoken about anything is when, in the darker moments of the fight, someone will claim that God has forsaken Creation entirely. Then she goes ballistic, screaming and ranting about God's Will and God's Love and how God is with her every moment of the day. It would seem insane... but those little clues always pay off... Gabriel hates demons more than ever, and makes no exception for Redeemed former demons. Then again, she's angry at the entire world except for God, her remaining Servitors, and Yves, whom she still trusts to make everything right again. Slowly, slowly, she is withdrawing into herself, becoming more petulant and childlike with each passing day, the last tiny bit of her sanity clinging to the hope that the Lord will return to the world and make everything make sense like it did before. She'd be pitiable, if she wasn't so bloodthirty and powerful... BAND ATTUNEMENTS, OR THE LACK THEREOF Alone among the Angelic Preservers, Gabriel has no Demonic Servitors. When Gabriel spots a demon, it's Smite first, ask Yves later. Thankfully, she doesn't show up away from her dozens of hiding places often (see Invocation). RELATIONS Gabriel is angry at everything... except Yves. Yves and God and her Servitors are the only ones she can trust. God told her to trust Yves. Yves will make things right. God will make things right. But first God will tell Gabriel to smite the cruel, smite the unfaithful, smite the unbelievers, smite smite smite until everything is nice and happy again.... As for the other Preservers, Nybbas and Andrealphus fear her, for good reason. Lucifer wishes he could help, but Gabriel won't let Novalis close to her anymore. Eli worries for her, and Lilith wants to find some way to control her. Yves works hard to calm Gabriel's rages when they occur, to cheer her up when she's depressed, and protect the world from her... except when her fire is needed, for inspiration or for smiting. Allied: Yves Associated: No one Hostile: Everyone else INVOCATION CHANCE OF INVOCATION: 0 INVOCATION MODIFIERS: NONE Roll one die at the start of a gaming session; this is the chance that a PC will find Gabriel at any known hiding place (Kilauea, the center of the Earth, her Cathederal, Mecca, etc.) when they go there to seek her. Any Angel may attempt to summon Gabriel: however, the only successful roll is a Divine Intervention, and if the situation is not absolutely dire -and- that Angel is not one of her Servitors, Gabriel will be *extremely* angry with that Angel and will refuse to help them- in fact, if they have any Dissonance or serve Lucifer or a demonic Archangel, she will Smite that Angel as punishment! If the situation -is- dire, or if her Servitor is asking her help in imminent combat, Gabriel will become eager to help, and will accept any Angelic help (or help she percieves as Angelic) in slaying the wicked. --- Redneck Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | Do not taunt Happy Fun Belial. http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | * * * c/o White Lightning Productions | "I love the sweet smell of http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | humiliation in the morning!" Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- Kobal reaffirms himself http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 23:55:24 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Vapula > One thing I don't understand is Vapula. Is he planning to take on > Saminga soon? I can't see him suffering that fool to lead for very long > and if the universe is cleansed of creation, what will he do with all of > his toys? Aw, sure he would...Vapula's not the sort to get terribly upset unless his budgets start getting cut...and Saminga seems the sort to be very interested in a lot of the things Vapula's got in the works, and to hardly even notice any projects that don't apply to him. (Ie. he'll really like the Messy Ways To Kill People Dept., and just not CARE about the rest, rather than getting upset with them.) Besides, Vapula definitely wouldn't want to be in charge himself. That doesn't leave enough time for real work. Now, if someone else approached him and promised fun things to tinker with, he might back a coup...but I definitely don't see him STARTING one. (I suppose someone like Lilith or Marc might even be able to approach him to change sides...especially if they could get Yves to offer Jean's old book.) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 01:01:13 -0500 (CDT) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] The Seed of Hope: An Introduction to Dark Victory >Wow. Wow. That's quite good. > >Looks like you achieved your fantasy of meeting Eli, yes? All that >creation in such a short time... My hat's off, sir. > Well, I just created one thing. A new universe based on an old one. When you have rules in existence to play off of, creating's a snap. My compliments to Derek Pearcy and CROC for doing it from scratch. -That- is hard. }:-{D Redneck Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | Do not taunt Happy Fun Belial. http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | * * * c/o White Lightning Productions | "I love the sweet smell of http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | humiliation in the morning!" Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- Kobal reaffirms himself http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 23:41:07 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Andrealphus > *if* I were him , I would have sided with the Preservers for one > reason: Saminga is ruling > downthere! He's crazy!! He wants my forces! He wants everything dead! > How can we have pleasure if we are dead?? Humans must be preserved - I don't know..you can do some VERY kinky stuff with zombis... (*I* wouldn't, but YOU can, if you'd like. It's not like they have the Will to say no...and even if they do, we all know zombis really MEAN yes..) {Er.} ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 23:36:40 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Brief Superiors Summary and Notes > > -- I'd like some more info, if you don't mind. Why would Andrea > > switch sides, and why would Lust be perceived as a more fitting word > > than Love for an AA? > Perhaps he might better be the Archangel of Desire? Less perjorative > that "Lust." If nothing else, there's the point that in Gaijin's DV universe, a lot of the lines have blurred, if not broken...Archangels currently aren't so much the holy defenders of the Symphony there so much as they're whoever isn't working for Saminga (eg. destruction). So Andrealphus didn't so much `become an Archangel' as he sauntered over to the other side of the battlefield and started calling himself that instead of "Prince". (Heh...he's the Archangel formerly known ..nevermind.) Anyway, just had the thought...with Gabriel so weakened, Andrealphus, being the opportunist he is, may well be working to take over her power; with the fires of lust and their potential for `inspiration', he could be aiming to kind of subvert her influence there and weaken her Word...{It's not like HE'D be much impressed by her claims to still hear from God, after all.} ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 00:09:38 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> Raziel/Ghogiel > > I did find a COUPLE comments, based mainly on how I think they'd > > integrate into a game...(or, more specifically, into mine, because I > > definitely want these two in my IN world...*ahem*) > *beam* My influence spreads! Cool! Yep, like peanut butter. Er... > > *********** > > Raziel, Archangel of the Mysteries (Patron of Science) > > >Malakim: > I wouldn't give them immunity to Sorcery, myself. I mean okay, WHY? And > it only protects them from maybe 1/100th of the people they would track > down. Well, I liked the second idea better, too, but there is the note that if they're working for Raziel and working to hunt down dabblers and evil sorcerers, they're likely to run into them at a slightly higher average than the population census would indicate... (Oh, and my professional Buttkicker in "Daggerfall" has complete magic immunity, and it rules. But magic is a little more widespread there, I suppose.. Especially working with the In Nomine system {we picked up the Marches yesterday}, I have to agree--magic immunity in an angel is pointless...but then, we're expanding magic to affect angels anyway.) BUT, then again, since we both like the other idea better...*ahem* > > twist good magic into bad things; perhaps using their Resonance not just > > on people, but on magic in general (including artifacts, spells, > > effects, etc.) to determine whether it was cast with honorable purpose. > I like this much better then immunity to Sorcery, but I wonder at the > point of using it on objects. An object itself is neither > honorable/dishonorable, and "good" objects can be used for bad purposes. > It always struck me as a purely human property. Basic psychometry, really...it would go back primarily to the intent at creation. (Eg. a Flaming Sword made by Lawrence for his Malakim to smite evil would strike such a Malakim as having been created for good; an ostensibly similar Flaming Sword made by Belial to torch Chicago, again, would strike them as having been made for evil.) Similarly, how it's BEING used would leave an impression...{So if that first sword got into the hands of a Demon who used it to torch Chicago a couple times, the Malakim would note that it had been created for Good, but was being used for Evil.} The idea itself is built a little off the Cherub of Creation attunement. > Heh. That's a fine change, and I would say go for it. Wahoo! > > >KEYS OF GOD > I just imagine a little keyring, jingling around. :) Oh..I'd figured they were more metaphorical. So is that Book like one of those teenage girl diaries, with little heart-shaped locks? > Of course, you have to watch it with those Seraphim who just answer "42", > and then stand around looking inscrutable. Heh...I figure they just look inscrutable because they have -no idea- what that answer means, and they HATE that. (That's why many Seraphim now just bop people over the head when asked that question.) > > ******************* > > Ghogiel, Demon Prince of the Occult > Ghogiel! My buddy, my pal! Erp. > Well, I had in my mind that the Shedim should be the nastiest of all the > demons of this group. I just kept the Exorcist in mind. He comes down, > It's solitary, while the Calabite is not. Makes sense... > > >The Sefer Raziel Hamalach (The Book of the Angel Raziel) > > This, mind, doesn't strike so much as an artifact as it does a > > supplement... Neat. > *nodnodnod* Well, we'll see what I can cook up. :) Heh...just remember to encode it properly, or you'll cause all sorts of trouble... Oh, wait, who'm I talking to, again? I meant, "Just remember to encode it properly, so as to better frustrate your players and spread angst throughout the cosmos." Yeah. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 01:40:24 -0500 (CDT) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> [FFULF] New Demonette: Tizzy! >In a message dated 97-10-20 04:23:59 EDT, you write: > >I certainly don't see any reason why she can't be a djinn. All descriptions >of choirs and bands should be taken as "what is the norm". Individuals can >always vary. I mean. look at it this way... > >One of my players is playing a Malakim of Micheal, with a cover as a Marine >MP...now the book says Malakim wear animal skins...does this mean that no >Malakim of Micheal can ever have a role as a soldier due to dress code >violations?!!? So long as it's not Dissonant for that Malakim to not wear animal skins. Of course, I've been acting under a misapprehension... just checked the book, and apparently it's not actually Dissonant for a Djinn to care. So I guess Tizzy could care. Redneck (now tell me how a demonling who's never attained 9 forces can differentiate into a Banded demon- isn't Tizzy an Imp?) Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | Do not taunt Happy Fun Belial. http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | * * * c/o White Lightning Productions | "I love the sweet smell of http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | humiliation in the morning!" Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- Kobal reaffirms himself http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 02:17:12 -0500 (CDT) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Brief Superiors Summary and Notes > >> > -- I'd like some more info, if you don't mind. Why would Andrea >> > switch sides, and why would Lust be perceived as a more fitting word >> > than Love for an AA? >> Perhaps he might better be the Archangel of Desire? Less perjorative >> that "Lust." > If nothing else, there's the point that in Gaijin's DV universe, a >lot of the lines have blurred, if not broken...Archangels currently aren't >so much the holy defenders of the Symphony there so much as they're >whoever isn't working for Saminga (eg. destruction). Technically, even most Hell-loyal demons aren't working for Saminga. He just happens to be running Hell -at the moment,- while virtually every other Demon Prince tries to think of some way to take his place. So Andrealphus >didn't so much `become an Archangel' as he sauntered over to the other >side of the battlefield and started calling himself that instead of >"Prince". It's not even original. Nybbas did it first. > Anyway, just had the thought...with Gabriel so weakened, >Andrealphus, being the opportunist he is, may well be working to take over >her power; with the fires of lust and their potential for `inspiration', >he could be aiming to kind of subvert her influence there and weaken her >Word...{It's not like HE'D be much impressed by her claims to still hear >from God, after all.} > Here's why not. ANDRE: I think Fire should be under my Word. ELI, LUCIFER and YVES: SIT DOWN. ANDRE (sarcastic): Yes, -sir.- End of discussion. The other Preservers have to accept Andre because they are sworn to accept any Demons willing to exist in peace with Angels and humanity. However, although he occasionally makes a useful ally, and his servers will play a prime role in the repopulation of large parts of the world, none of them really -like- Andre all that much, not even Lilith. (Lilith is the least hostile, but she is definitely hostile.) He is totally unrepentant- even Nybbas feels a little bit guilty about his part in bringing about Armageddeon. If the Preservers win and the remaining Demon Princes are defeated, Andre will saunter right back down into Hell, and the others will wish him a hearty Good Riddance. Redneck Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | Do not taunt Happy Fun Belial. http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | * * * c/o White Lightning Productions | "I love the sweet smell of http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | humiliation in the morning!" Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- Kobal reaffirms himself http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 17:48:08 +1000 From: Anthony Baxter Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Gabriel, Archangel of Fire I'd like to add my "woohoo! this stuff is _great_" to the chorus - and add some comments/queries... What's going to happen to the major churches under the DV universe? After all that's happened, and with Larry out of the picture, I can't see the Catholic Church playing a big part in the lives of people. The more fundamentalist churches are also going to be changing, methinks. After all, it's one thing to preach fire and brimstone - what happens when it arrives? (I just had a mental image of a pile of fundys standing around waiting for Rapture, to carry them to Heaven. "Um, Lord? Any time now would be good. Hello? Anyone up there?") And why _did_ Kobal become redeemed? Was it just for the laughs ("hey hey, guess what, I was on the other side all along!"), or for some other reason? Anthony, who is glad to see a setting where angels and demons _could_ play in the same game :) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 03:06:46 -0700 (PDT) From: lugaid@seanet.com Subject: Re: IN> [FFULF] New Demonette: Tizzy! On 1997-10-21 in_nomine-l@lists.io.com said to lugaid@seanet.com }Redneck (now tell me how a demonling who's never attained 9 forces }can differentiate into a Banded demon- isn't Tizzy an Imp?) only takes 7 forces for a Demon to become Banded... Slan agus Beannachtai, Lugaid MacRobert If you can't elucidate, eschew obfuscatory interlocutions! Net-Tamer V 1.08X - Test Drive ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 03:06:53 -0700 (PDT) From: lugaid@seanet.com Subject: IN> Interventions question something that Overstreet wrote regarding Dark Victory got me thinking (a dangerous habit i picked up some years ago): what happens with intervention rolls made by/against Ethereals? if a Dream Soldier of Odin rolls a 666, what happens? how about a 111? the question is easier in regard to, say, Faerie or the Aztec gods, since they are aligned, at least nominally, with Hell, but not all Ethereals work with either Heaven *or* Hell... Slan agus Beannachtai, Lugaid MacRobert Keep in mind that I have no idea what I'm talking about. Net-Tamer V 1.08X - Test Drive ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 12:25:41 +0100 From: "cd skogsberg" Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Gabriel, Archangel of Fire Anthony Baxter wrote: > I'd like to add my "woohoo! this stuff is _great_" to the chorus - > and add some comments/queries... And mine... > (I just had a mental image of a pile of > fundys standing around waiting for Rapture, to carry them to Heaven. > "Um, Lord? Any time now would be good. Hello? Anyone up there?") There's a great quote in _Good Omens_, when Aziraphale has posessed Marvin O. Bagman, televangelist: "[Y]ou're right about the fire and war, all that. But that Rapture stuff - well, if you could see them all in Heaven - serried ranks pf them as far as the mind can follow and beyond, flaming swords, all that, well, what I'm trying to say is who has time to go round picking people out and popping them up in the air to sneer at the people dying of radiation sickness on the parched and burning earth below them? [...] [T]o be frank, when the fire falls and the seas of blood rise you lot are going to be civilian casualties eiter way. Between our war and your war, they're going to kill everyone and let God sort it out - right?" cd - -- "And it has come to pass that the Lord of the Woods, being ... Seven and nine, down the onyx steps ... (tri)butes to Him in the Gulf, Aza- thoth, He of Whom Thou hast taught us marv(els ..." - H. P. Lovecraft, _The Whisperer in Darkness_ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 08:17:00 -0500 (CDT) From: Donald G Bixler Subject: Re: IN> [FFULF] New Demonette: Tizzy! > Of course, I've been acting under a misapprehension... just checked the > book, and apparently it's not actually Dissonant for a Djinn to care. Correct. It's not like she's working for Lust... > So I guess Tizzy could care. Y KANT TIZZY KARE? (Sorry, obscure reference) > Redneck (now tell me how a demonling who's never attained 9 forces can > differentiate into a Banded demon- isn't Tizzy an Imp?) Quantity versus quality. Infernal spirits turn into full-fledged demons at only seven forces. > Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | Do not taunt Happy Fun Belial. Oops da Ogre, I don't have the book at work to give you a page number mudgb4@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 08:19:44 -600 From: "John L Veazey" Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Brief Superiors Summary and Notes > >LILITH - Severely dissonant, on the brink of Redeeming; defected to the > >Preserver cause, is now Archangel of Freedom; if she Redeems, she will > >probably become Archangel of Liberation > > Hm. I dunno, I could see her as Freedom on both sides. The Word is what > you make of it. I have to agree with this. Lilith is as neutral as you can get. The only reason she's a Princess is that Satan gave her a Word out of respect for her. She's not even included in the Demon Princes, and Lilim's resonance is a Perception of a person's want. She is her own person and belongs to NO SIDE. (This is not to say she's the purest of them all, but the same can be said of some ArchAngels) Everything she does is of her own will, volition, choice, whatever you want to call it. If that doesn't go along with her Word, then I don't know what does. Vz -- Wohoo, I have $.02 to put in ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 08:34:29 -0500 (CDT) From: Donald G Bixler Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #412 > >> Yup, friendly guy. In a word, Uriel. ;'} > > Much, much, much, much worse. Dominic believes he is the only clean thing in > the universe... although his servitors will make nice cleaning tools before > they are burned to remove the taint of corruption. Okay, Uriel _might_ not have offed all of his pet Malakim, but other than that, I don't see him leaving anything else standing. > It wasn't intentional. He just went Bright at the wrong place at the right > time, and managed to give Haagenti a major case of indigestion. Sure... ;') > Vapula didn't join the Preservers because (a) he didn't notice and (b) he's > a nutter. Crazy, yes. Stupid, no. > Vapula would -love- to see the Universe destroyed just so he can observe > what happens next- he just doesn't realize that when Existence goes, he goes > with it. I don't see him being that dense. There's a difference between being mad as a hatter and just not bothering to think. > Vapula isn't -quite- as focused as Saminga, but he's got David and all those > Malakim to play with, so he's going to be occupied for quite some time... I can see this keeping him busy for a while since I'm sure Malakim must fascinate him to no end, but I don't think that he just wouldn't notice how things are headed. It's not like Saminga is funding him now; he's too busy chowing down on anything that moves. The other Princes have to have made carefully hedged statements around him trying to sniff out where his loyalties lay. And perhaps Nybbas (with the backing of Lilith, Marc, or Yves) probably has tried to get him to defect, if for no other reason than to make all of the other Princes suspicious of him. I can't see Vapula supporting the Destuction, at least not right now. He has so many other experiments that require the existance of the universe to try out first. > Redneck (razzinfrazzin lost email) Oops da Ogre, good luck with the ISP mudgb4@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 09:42:19 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Lilith John Dye wrote: > Any clues into the character of Lilith? Okay, she is freedom. Why is > she with the forces of Badness, since Hell seems to be an Unequal > Opportunity Employer, not to mention other oppressive actions. Is SHE > in debt to Lucifer? I think her write-up says, or at least broadly suggests, that she is massively in debt to Lucifer -- for her Word, if for nothing else. As to why her Word should be hellish rather than heavenly -- it could be either, just as Fire is both hellish AND heavenly, but Lilith is an infernal figure, so it's the hellish brand. As was posted earlier, it isn't the Freedom of liberty and equality, but the Freedom of irresponsibility. That sort of goes with her story, wherein she split with Adam rather than work things out. Actually, I don't think her Word fits her legend very well, though it makes a very good device for introducing the "Deal with the Devil" concept. Looking at the actual stories about Lilith, Lust would be a better word for her. In the medieval tale of Lilith from "The Alphabet of Ben Sira," she has hundred of demon-children a day (the Lilim) because of all her wild sex with the demons of the Red Sea. Even going back before that, she is the arch-succubus, responsible for men's wet-dreams and for crib-deaths and women's deaths in childbirth, because she hates the children of Adam and Eve. Sterility would also be an appropriate Word. Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 08:45:22 -0500 (CDT) From: Donald G Bixler Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Vapula > Aw, sure he would...Vapula's not the sort to get terribly upset > unless his budgets start getting cut...and Saminga seems the sort to be > very interested in a lot of the things Vapula's got in the works, and to > hardly even notice any projects that don't apply to him. (Ie. he'll really > like the Messy Ways To Kill People Dept., and just not CARE about the > rest, rather than getting upset with them.) Well, it didn't sound to me like Sammy was taking the time to support Vapula's projects; he's busy sucking up the forces of everything that can't run away. That'll cut into both your funding and pool of test subjects. > Besides, Vapula definitely wouldn't want to be in charge himself. That's true, and he doesn't really seem to go for politics. If you look at his writeup in the main book, he's managed to get on the good side of quite a few powerful Princes without really offending anyone. It's a lot easier to get your work done that way, I would imagine. > That doesn't leave enough time for real work. Now, if someone else > approached him and promised fun things to tinker with, he might back a > coup...but I definitely don't see him STARTING one. (I suppose someone > like Lilith or Marc might even be able to approach him to change > sides...especially if they could get Yves to offer Jean's old book.) I guess that you're right in that he might not want to start one, but if Saminga keeps destroying everything Vapula wants to study, well, PO'd scientists can get _ugly_. And if he was somehow Redeemed (I don't see him being too keen on the idea), it would be scary. An actual scientist with the objectivity of an Elohim. He would be much more effective than a manager-type like Jean since he would have actually earned the knowledge... Oops da Ogre, but what could get him to do that? mudgb4@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 10:03:01 -0400 From: johnk@ascc01.ascc.lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) Subject: Re: IN> Pagan Soldiers > >As a Line Editor, since Marches was pre-me, I'm going to ask those > >who were around if this is legit, or if Ethereal Soldiers are > >restricted as Soldiers of God and Hellsworn are. (Dream-shades, > >p. Mar101, definitely should be able to access Ethereal Songs, > >though, even as Saints have access to all three levels.) > > Okay, barring other "stop the presses" stuff, Pagan Soldier and > Dream Soldiers can learn Ethereal Songs -- their patrons are > intimately connected to the ethereal realm, and know the tricks > of teaching them to Soldiers. And they can use them anywhere. Does this let them use Ethereal Songs in Relics? ;) (I would assume so, for consistency...) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 10:31:03 -0400 From: "Chuck Ryan" Subject: Re: IN> Pagan Soldiers Okay, barring other "stop the presses" stuff, Pagan Soldier and Dream Soldiers can learn Ethereal Songs -- their patrons are intimately connected to the ethereal realm, and know the tricks of teaching them to Soldiers. And they can use them anywhere. by this logic wouldn't all soldiers of heaven and hell have access to celestial songs and be able to use them anyware. I was uder the inpression that a soldiers restrictions in songs was do to the nature of the soldier and not the nature of the teacher ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 11:01:34 -0400 From: johnk@ascc01.ascc.lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Vapula On Oct 21, 8:45am, Donald G Bixler wrote: > Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Vapula > > Aw, sure he would...Vapula's not the sort to get terribly upset > > unless his budgets start getting cut...and Saminga seems the sort to be > > very interested in a lot of the things Vapula's got in the works, and to > > hardly even notice any projects that don't apply to him. (Ie. he'll really > > like the Messy Ways To Kill People Dept., and just not CARE about the > > rest, rather than getting upset with them.) > > Well, it didn't sound to me like Sammy was taking the time to support > Vapula's projects; he's busy sucking up the forces of everything that > can't run away. That'll cut into both your funding and pool of test > subjects. Ah, but the system of soul-dispersal in Hell has broken down (plus even good souls have to go to hell now) so while Vap has relatively fewer to work with than Saminga, he has far, far more than he ever has had before. Speaking of which, this might be a _very_ good campaign for a 'souls in Hell' saga. With so many princes dead or redeemed and the flood of new souls (and total whack-out in charge) you could conceivably have pockets of 'free' souls wandering around Hell, trying to stay out of the legions of death. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 10:27:31 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Gabriel, Archangel of Fire Do not taunt Happy Fun Gabriel... Fascinating stuff. My thanks to the Gaijin. Anthony Baxter wrote: > What's going to happen to the major churches under the DV universe? > After all that's happened, and with Larry out of the picture, I can't > see the Catholic Church playing a big part in the lives of people. Um... All organizational structure is in shreds, of course, but some kind of religion is going to be playing a BIG part in people's lives. I'd think it goes something like this: It is now screamingly obvious that all the prophecies by Jew, Christian, and Moslem alike, about a coming judgement day, are RIGHT. So, for a start, those religions get a huge boost. Only... Where's the Messiah? Where's the actual judgement? Which brings us to-- > fundamentalist churches are also going to be changing, methinks. > After all, it's one thing to preach fire and brimstone - what happens > when it arrives? (I just had a mental image of a pile of fundys > standing around waiting for Rapture, to carry them to Heaven. "Um, > Lord? Any time now would be good. Hello? Anyone up there?") Well, actually, the Christian Fundamentalists have the best mental equipment to cope with this situation. Hel-- Ah, heck, they might even be just about 100% right. The only detail might be the timing of the Rapture. You see, the Rapture is part of much Christian eschatology, but looms especially large in the "dispensational" systems, to which most Fundamentalists and many other conservative Christians belong. In dispensationalism, they expect the end-of-the- world horrors to go on for seven years, divided into two 3.5-year periods. This seven years is called "the Tribulation." There are three opinions, within dispensationalism, about when the Rapture occurs vis a vis the Tribulation: - "Pre-Trib": immediately before (the most popular opinion) - "Mid-Trib": at the 3.5-years mark (running second) - "Post-Trib": at the end (a very distant third-place) Well, events strongly suggest Pre-Trib is out of the running. (Or, that a lot of people who THOUGHT they'd get Raptured were wrong.) If, at the end of 3.5 or 7.0 years, the Heavens open and a resurrected Michael stomps Saminga or his successor ("Satan" is a *title*, not a personal name), followed by the Messiah, the general resurrection, judgement, etc. ... if all that happens, the Fundamentalists will be pleased but not surprised, and ditto their conservative co-religionists, and their equivalents among Jews and Moslems. I suppose Buddhists and Hindus will be able to cope; their religions have their doomsdays, too. But conservative Christianity will be getting a LOT of new members, at least at first. The ones thin on the ground, as was said before, will be atheists. Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 12:19:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Kenneth Winland Subject: Re: IN> Raziel/Ghogiel Greetings! Could some one send me this file? I missed it the first time around, and these Princes sound interesting. Thanks a bunch! Ken Kenneth J. Winland, M.A. Department of Anthropology, University of Toronto EMail: kwinland@epas.utoronto.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 10:29:49 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> Pagan Soldiers >> Okay, barring other "stop the presses" stuff, Pagan Soldier and >> Dream Soldiers can learn Ethereal Songs -- their patrons are > by this logic wouldn't all soldiers of heaven and hell have access to > celestial songs and be able to use them anyware. I was uder the I don't know...it seems relatively clear that the old Gods know a few tricks the Angels don't, especially when it comes to Songs. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 12:20:03 -0400 From: "Kirt A. Dankmyer -- aka Loki" Subject: Re: IN> Pagan Soldiers >Okay, barring other "stop the presses" stuff, Pagan Soldier and >Dream Soldiers can learn Ethereal Songs -- their patrons are >intimately connected to the ethereal realm, and know the tricks >of teaching them to Soldiers. And they can use them anywhere. Okay, as a pagan, I can accept that, but partisan issues aside, I don't think it's thematically appropriate in In Nomine for pagan Soldiers to have *more* abilities than Celestial ones. Perhaps Ethereal Soldiers can't learn Corporeal songs anymore? Or should we allow Celestially-based Soldiers learn Celestial Songs? -Loki, hoping this will be forwarded to the Superiors - -- Kirt A. Dankmyer --- Academic Computing Specialist http://www.wfu.edu/~dankmyka/ -- (910) 759-4202 -- PGP public key available. For the Snark _was_ a Boojum, you see. --Lewis Carroll ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #415 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.