From owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Wed Oct 22 09:48:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA02382 for ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 09:48:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id JAA05439 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 09:09:43 -0500 Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 09:09:43 -0500 Message-Id: <199710221409.JAA05439@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #419 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@LISTS.IO.COM Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, October 22 1997 Volume 01 : Number 419 In this digest: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Bright Victory? Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Brief Superiors Summary and Notes Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Bright Victory? Re: IN> In Nomine Clarifications & House Rules Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] General Observation Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Bright Victory? Re: IN>Dark Victory Backwards (Long) Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Brief Superiors Summary and Notes Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Bright Victory? IN> Demon of the Commons Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Bright Victory? Re: Re: IN> Lilith IN> In Nomine news Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Bright Victory? Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Still Andrealphus Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Bright Victory? Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] The Seed of Hope: An Introduction to Dark Re: IN> Choir/Band stereotypes Re: IN> Adventure Seed: Dream a Little Dream of Me Re: IN>Dark Victory Backwards (Long) Re: IN>Dark Victory Backwards (Long) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 00:43:03 EST From: PERRY Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Bright Victory? Redneck said: >Actually, you -can't- really have a play setting in Bright Victory. In a >Bright Victory, Heaven wins, all dissenters are destroyed along with the >demons, and either Earth is destroyed and recreated from scratch or remade >in a Heavenly image. Angels deviating from the Party Line are dissolved, and >humans not conforming to the Light are -still- sent to Hell for eternal >punishment. What if Hell becomes merely a part of heaven, run by old Dommie or someone else with a knack for hurting people. The status quo becomes the enemy, with Lilith leading a rebellion against a hellishly terrible tyrant. Sweet Jesus, it's the rebellion all over again. >Dark Victory becomes fun because Hell's nature is different from Heaven's; >while Heaven is mostly united in intent, if not in execution, Hell is >unified only by the powerful will of Lucifer himself. Heaven can split only >with difficulty, and such splits will be dealt with swiftly. Hell is >-already- split and held together with baling wire, chewing gum, and bad >intentions. > >Redneck Yes, we humans seem to thrive on difference, on conflict. My little pet theory of God is that Yahweh (Ancient God of War) seeks out as much conflict as possible in order to gain as much powers as possible. Look at the Holy land. If Yahweh's word is War, that'd be a pretty good place to have a few Tethers, eh? So, to me, that would help prevent total victory. Which is good since, if the war ened with Heaven's complete victory, the game'd be over. The Heavens become tyrannical, a force to be overthrown. My, my, my... a chance to participate in the second rebellion, and just look who the heros are... To play an angel is to play an upholder of the status quo, to play a demon is to play a rebel. What fun! - -Perry Perry M. Lloyd "You know, Lucky Charms are the best antacid." "Yeah, it's because those mashmallows aren't really marshmallows, they're chalk." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 00:48:27 -0500 (CDT) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Brief Superiors Summary and Notes > >Image.... > >Lilith stands on a high point, wind whipping around her. She has been >standing there since the first sparks fell from the sky, and before, >she was singing, "Risk the fire in the midnight sky/And the rain of >Hell when the ashes fly/Just so long as the generals die!/Bring >it down, bring it down!/Bring it down, bring it down!" > >But the earth-bound suns have faded now. And she can see not just >the masterless claiming their birthrights of Freedom, but Saminga >walking the Earth. And Saminga is taking them, eating the souls of >the survivors, the ones who would have made the world to what they >wanted, free of the tyrants of creation. Saminga is killing them, >destroying them utterly, and Lilith was promised that she would be >the avatar of Freedom. > >There is no Freedom in Death. > >Lucifer has not kept his promise. Lilith's Word has become useless. >*Lilith* has become useless. She saw the handwriting on the wall >long ago, and she sees it now. > >There is no Freedom in Death. > >The tears stream down her cheeks as she watches Saminga's swath of >destruction. She knows that her Word is in flux, and Death has >always been more powerful -- though stupid enough to be manipulated, >before. But now he has his focus, and could even Lucifer destroy >him now? > >There is no Freedom in Death. > >Her fists clench, slowly rising as her jaw tightens. "No," she >whispers as she sees what should have been her greatest victory, >turned to glassy ash. > >And she screams her rejection of this Truth to the empty skies, to >the winds, to the butchered Earth and beyond, to the wreckage of >Heaven itself. "*NO*! THIS SHALL NOT BE! IT WILL NOT END LIKE THIS!" > >She sees what must be done, to save humanity, to save Freedom, to >save herself. The first thing is to save the humans, and if there >is pain and weariness on that road, so be it. She has lived her >entire life for free will, and this is what she chooses to do with >that free will. > >And then the high point is empty but for the wind, sweeping away >the footprints of the Woman that God created. > So close, so close. But you leave out one important facet in your scene. Lilith's promotion of selfish Freedom in the world played a *very* large part in the destruction below, as generals, warlords, soldiers and looters 'did what they wanted.' Now, she sees her freedom without responsibility or respect turning on itself, the actions of the 'free actors' not promoting her Word, but Death's. She can shout defiance at Saminga, she can blame Lucifer for his lies (but not for long), but in the end she comes back to herself... she was Free to choose, and she made her choice, and her choice has helped strip Freedom from humanity. This is why she is so close to Redeeming... more soon. Redneck Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | Do not taunt Happy Fun Belial. http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | * * * c/o White Lightning Productions | "I love the sweet smell of http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | humiliation in the morning!" Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- Kobal reaffirms himself http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 01:10:13 -0500 (CDT) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Bright Victory? > >> >What if, instead of Dark Victory, there'd been Bright Victory? >> Actually, you -can't- really have a play setting in Bright Victory. In a > Why not? If nothing else, consider the Sandman take; Lucifer >quits, and hands the key over...and it ends up going to a pair of Angels, >commanded by God to take over. One of them immediately has a fit about >being condemned to Hell when he hasn't rebelled, and, of course, >rebels... > >> in a Heavenly image. Angels deviating from the Party Line are dissolved, and > And just consider that for a moment. Lucifer's defeated, the >hoards of Hell scattered to the Symphony...and Heaven immediately starts >purging everyone who's ever voiced dissent? I give it ten seconds before >another third of the Host breaks off, and we have a new Hell united under >Gabriel and Lilith...hm..actually, I'll work on this a little... > You miss the point here, though. Bright victory means that rebellion from the Almighty is repudiated. Dissent is one thing, dissonance will be entirely another, and Angels will no longer have the buffer zone of being Outcast. All of this, of course, assumes Free Will remains in play, which I personally doubt. I don't find Bright Victory fascinating- after all, it's already been written in the last two chapters of Revelation. Redneck Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | Do not taunt Happy Fun Belial. http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | * * * c/o White Lightning Productions | "I love the sweet smell of http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | humiliation in the morning!" Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- Kobal reaffirms himself http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 06:19:19 GMT From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Clarifications & House Rules On Tue, 21 Oct 1997 20:29:15 +0000, "Nathaniel Eliot" wrote: >> 1. You may be assigned by your Superior to serve another superior. >> Should that superior be of sufficient stature to impose dissonance >> (Archangels and Demon Princes, certainly), you will be subject to >> dissonance from both your AA or DP and your immediate superior, as >> well as your Chorus or Band. You will, of course, be able to >> invoke that immediate superior. >> (Clarification.) > >That doesn't mesh with the canon for Eli. Right, Eli is an exception in that his servitors don't follow the general rule. I should have said that. >> 15. The campaign will tend to be realistic. Police will tend to show up in >> large numbers following shooting. Expect to be arrested if you're obviously >> packing illegal weapons. > >This is largely a judgement call - in a dark humor game, it will only >happen if the irony of an angel getting arrested is worth it. If >this is said, make it a suggestion to the GM only. I am the GM, so I'm trying to let the players know what campaign atmosphere will be. >> 18. Celestials may soul-die. If so, you will be allowed to bring >> in a new character at roughly the level ot the old character--you >> wiil not have to start out with nine forces and basic points. Your >> choice of chorus and Archangel may be restricted: typical would be >> prohibition of the same choir or a requirement to have the same or >> similar Archangel. (House rule.) > >Again, a judgement call, and at best a good suggestion. Right. I'm letting my players know in advance what my call will be. I don't want them not sacrificing if it's in character because they don't want to be behind everyone else for the rest of the campaign. >Sorry to pick so much, but I don't know how much power you have, >exactly, and I figured I'd better say it... That's just the kind of input I wanted. Thank you! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 01:27:47 EST From: PERRY Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] General Observation >>The nigh-destruction of the world as we know it, billions of people >>killed, this sounds like horror to me. >> >>And not too shabby horror at that. :) >> >Maybe, but DV isn't about the Apocalypse itself, but what happens after. };-{D > >Redneck Tis true, tis true - -Perry Perry M. Lloyd "You know, Lucky Charms are the best antacid." "Yeah, it's because those mashmallows aren't really marshmallows, they're chalk." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 01:25:45 EST From: PERRY Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Bright Victory? Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 23:43:46 Kingsley Lintz >> At 10:48 PM -0500 10/21/97, PERRY M. LLOYD wrote: >> >What if, instead of Dark Victory, there'd been Bright Victory? >> If you write it, I will put it on the INC... > Oh, hey, good point. > >Perry; that was to say, I'll work on this one if you're not... Well, truth be told, I really wouldn't mind being helped or helping someone else. Looks like "Chris Jackson" also has some ideas on it. I really love trying to include as many points of view as possible and see what happens. I don't (yet) have any particular vision, but given some rest I know I could find the one that I have. And ooooohh dear is disturbing... :) I think I'm already working on it, at least that's what the buzzing in my head tells me. Please, toss me bones. I do my best work in a group setting, call me a Kyriotate, but I find the multiple perspectives do wonders. - -Perry Perry M. Lloyd "You know, Lucky Charms are the best antacid." "Yeah, it's because those mashmallows aren't really marshmallows, they're chalk." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 01:33:02 -0500 (CDT) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN>Dark Victory Backwards (Long) >Disclaimer: I've been very interested in Redneck Gaijin's Dark Victory stuff, and very impressed. I'll never use it in a million years, but I've never cared for post-apocalyptic stuff in my role-playing games. Anyway, he got me thinking about a playable campaign after *Heaven* wins. Besides "Paranoia", although I've actually included a bit of that. >Warning: I'm seriously messing with the established character of a few Superiors, *especially* Yves. Disturbingly fascinating, but doesn't ring true for me somehow. Why? Because of the last sentence in the above. My goal with Dark Victory is to develop the Superiors logically through Armageddeon into the situations I described. In each case, the Superior's Word turns and twists their personality, forcing some to change, preventing others from changing... "Why don't you follow Lucifer, then, O Loyal One?" Malphas mocked. "I cannot," Kronos sighed, and he sat on the rock floor in front of the empty Granite Throne, looking up at the Shedim with an expression of helpless, quiet despair. "I have known ever since I Fell... I shall spend the rest of my existence in Hell." He looked off into space, whispering, "It is my Fate," and said no more. from 'Dark Victory: The Seed of Fate,' in progress Of all the Superiors, the one I think I've taken the most liberties with is Kobal. And he's -dead,- or doing his best impression. In any case, I find the brief description of your Backwards Bright Victory a thousand times more terrifying than the darkest images in my mind of Dark Victory. Redneck Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | Do not taunt Happy Fun Belial. http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | * * * c/o White Lightning Productions | "I love the sweet smell of http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | humiliation in the morning!" Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- Kobal reaffirms himself http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 02:00:25 -0500 (CDT) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Brief Superiors Summary and Notes > I meant Eli'd go along with Gabriel asking to have Andre pounded. >{Though, on the side note, I don't entirely believe in Eli and Andrealphus >hating each other so vehemently...I know it has the arrow right there in >the book, but if nothing else, while Eli may hate Andre, I think Andre >finds Eli more amusing than anything.} It's unimportant in this particular case what Andre feels about Eli. (And I agree with your statement, servitors of Lust in general have been having fun jerking the chains of Creation for some time now. }:-{D ) > Otherwise, as I noted to our Andre; it's not so much hope and >inspiration he cares about in this instance..it's power. There's power to >be had there that Gabriel probably can't hold, and Andrealphus could use >it to consolidate his position. His "hope and inspiration" would likely >manifest more as obsession... There's power, and there's power. Claiming aspects of another Word which can't really be fit in any reasonable way to your own Word -or- your personality is a stretch of a power grab. Having the most servants, or at least the most Essence, is another form of power, and in DV this is one mode Andre is actively seeking out... >{On the related note, he'd likely make some power grab in the Marches as >well...with Beleth AND Blandine dead, he's the surviving Superior with >just about the single best claim to Dreams...["especially the wet ones", >as MaBarry emphasizes.]} He'd have to fight the growing power of the pagan gods AND Hell's occupation forces. No thanks, not until New Heaven in general makes a move to claim more than the very tiny bit of the Marches it has now. >> Now, -Eli- might have to worry about such things, since one of Andre's most >> important jobs in the DV universe will be encouraging humanity- and all >> life- to be fruitful and multiply. Eli's a very busy, very worried >> Archangel, and he -could- find the procreation aspect of Creation yanked out >> from under him... > That, too. Geeze..wait'll Saminga comes to storm the Preservers >and finds them all happily still weakened...until he notices Andre, >leaning against a polished statue of a naked Novalis, grinning. "Remember >me? We never got on well, as I recall...now, you've got Death behind you, >and I'll grant, there's a lot of it going around lately...but I've got >Lust, Inspiration, Dreams, and Life behind me now. Feeling lucky, punk?" >Then tossing a wink over at Lucifer. "And you thought I'd never amount to >anything..." Nice, except you're severely underestimating how integrated a Word is to a Celestial. Andre -is- Lust, and will remain Lust until he Redeems or a far greater power strips him of the Word. He can expand the power of his word, he can subsume lesser Words which play off of or dovetail into his Word, but he cannot just say, 'I want Lust to include Hope' and claim it. Andre is limited by what he is- Impudite Archangel of Lust, unwilling to Redeem or even substantially change. Procreation he could make a play for; Hope and Inspiration just don't have anything to do with Lust, apart from 'I hope I'm gettin' some tonight,' and 'I was just inspired to do that bit with the 7 iron and the brie cheese.' And finally, let's not forget that even in old IN Words overlap among Superiors, so even if Andre made a play to promote someone else's word for his own benefit, the odds are strongly against him actually -getting- it. Andre will be making power plays, true, but going for the ones mentioned here isn't just foolish, it's -futile.- Andre has better things to do with his time... better people attached to them, too. };-{D Redneck Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | Do not taunt Happy Fun Belial. http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | * * * c/o White Lightning Productions | "I love the sweet smell of http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | humiliation in the morning!" Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- Kobal reaffirms himself http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 02:12:55 -0500 (CDT) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Bright Victory? >Redneck said: > >What if Hell becomes merely a part of heaven, run by old Dommie or >someone else with a knack for hurting people. > >The status quo becomes the enemy, with Lilith leading a rebellion against >a hellishly terrible tyrant. How can a prisoner rebel? In a Bright Victory, all the old rebels- including Lilith- will be imprisoned or destroyed completely, in either case unable to do anything. Assuming that the experiment of Free WIll continues, anyone who Rebels will no longer be able to just Go Away- they will find themselves locked up along with Lucifer's bunch, or just disincorporated. And who in Heaven will -want- to rebel? Not Michael- he's always held that the best war is one that is -over.- Not Eli- with Hell no longer a threat, and Evil expunged from the world, the bounds of Creation are limitless. Janus, perhaps? If he's also Valefor, he's already in Hell; if he isn't, then there must be room in God's Plan for chaos without evil, so why should he rebel? > >>Dark Victory becomes fun because Hell's nature is different from Heaven's; >>while Heaven is mostly united in intent, if not in execution, Hell is >>unified only by the powerful will of Lucifer himself. Heaven can split only >>with difficulty, and such splits will be dealt with swiftly. Hell is >>-already- split and held together with baling wire, chewing gum, and bad >>intentions. >> >Yes, we humans seem to thrive on difference, on conflict. >My little pet theory of God is that Yahweh (Ancient God of War) seeks >out as much conflict as possible in order to gain as much powers as >possible. Look at the Holy land. If Yahweh's word is War, that'd be >a pretty good place to have a few Tethers, eh? > >So, to me, that would help prevent total victory. Which is good since, if >the war ened with Heaven's complete victory, the game'd be over. > >The Heavens become tyrannical, a force to be overthrown. By who? >My, my, my... a chance to participate in the second rebellion, and just >look who the heros are... > >To play an angel is to play an upholder of the status quo, to play a demon >is to play a rebel. What fun! This is already in effect in IN. After the Bright Victory, though, there is simply no room left in the system for rebels. That's the -definition- of a Bright Victory- the Rebellion is ended. For good. Redneck Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | Do not taunt Happy Fun Belial. http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | * * * c/o White Lightning Productions | "I love the sweet smell of http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | humiliation in the morning!" Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- Kobal reaffirms himself http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 05:15:14 -0400 From: "bruce dykes" Subject: IN> Demon of the Commons >> >I'm trying to think of just who a demon of TotC would work for. Valefor >looks promising but I have a hard time thinking that he would get any >milage out of taking something that's free. > >endquote > >Haagenti. > That all depends on if it is just literally a demon of the *example* of TotC or if it is a demon representing the economic priciple that TotC represents. Endquote I was going to argue that this distinction is irrelevant, as the specific examples fail due to human greed, and the principle in general also fails due to human greed, but then I realized that in practice, which is where The War is being fought, things fall out quite differently. First, all the specific examples of TotC are executed by servants Haagenti, ie: the Demon of Food Stamp Fraud, the Demon of Social Security Fraud, the Demon Welfare Fraud, the Demon of Tax Fraud, etc. In short, any demon whose task it is to encourage mortals to take as much from the public teat as possible will be a servant of Haagenti. These would all be empirical example of TotC. Now, we come to the problematic one, the economic principle behind TotC. First, let's look at the execution of the principle. That could entail a couple of jobs, expanding state welfare rolls and programs as much as possible, exposing the Tragedy of the Commons as a fraud (sounds like a Balseraph's job to me), etc.Most of those roles wouldn't necessarily fall under Haagenti's purview. Which brings up an interesting Big Point. The Denonic Nature being what it is (selfishness), and Angelic Nature being what it is (love), it appears that Diabolicals will more often wind up working at cross purposes, as they *can't* see the Big Picture. Of course, the Divine Forces, unable to work for anything *but* the Big Picture, are less flexible. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 04:16:36 -0500 (CDT) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Bright Victory? Okay. Obviously, some people see the possibilities in an alternate to DV where Heaven won, but a new rebellion began. This is easier if you play IN backwards, but since I didn't in DV, I'm not gonna while I give whoever sits down to do this a brief bit of help before I go to sleep and dream the last bits of Lilith's and Dominic's DV writeups into place. After that I finish 'The Seed of Fate,' and the place writeups for the Republic of North Australia, the Northeastern States of America, and Rio de Janeiro Free State. (After that, it'll be either requests or Wayward Follicles Invading the Funamental Aperture.) Anyway, it's 3:30 AM Texas time, lemme get this outta my hair so I can sleep. (1) THERE MUST BE A MECHANISM FOR REBELLION. In DV, the Angels and rebel Demons were at first able to hide on Earth because, alone of all the Universe's realms, it was not yet totally controlled by demon occupation forces. Later, they were able to quietly take a tiny corner of Heaven and the Marches back, but it's only a matter of time before Hell challenges that... In a BV universe, there must be someplace for the rebels to go and organize... but where? God has reclaimed his Creation, right? But do we - -know- all of Creation? Do we know God's Will? Is there a corner of Heaven, a place in the Far Marches, or a Purgatory between Heaven and Hell where angels and demons opposing the orthodoxy of Heaven can go? Remember that, unlike in Dark Victory, a Bright Victory WILL end in total Heavenly rule over Earth, if not the total destruction and recreation of Earth. Rebels CANNOT hide there. (2) WHO REBELS FROM UTOPIA? A Bright Victory is, by definition, total. Whereas Hell, with its flaws, greed, envy, etc. may not pursue a defeated foe to destruction, Heaven will most definitely scour the Universe to bring every last rebel Demon to justice. Whoever rebels from the Bright Victory will have to be an Angel. But who? All the Archangels- even Eli with his love of humans, even Jordi with his hatred of humans, both Dominic and Janus, all the Archangels are loyal to God first and will set their own preferences aside to follow His orders. Furthermore, with Hell turned from the domain of Lucifer into his Eternal prison, there's no place for Falling Angels to go to- they're locked up or killed straightaway, in those few cases they're allowed to get that Dissonant. The Pagan Gods? Those who served them are in Hell too, and those Gods who haven't already faded back into the SYmphony are on their way, often helped along by some Malakite. (3) WHOSE SIDE IS GOD REALLY ON? In DV, the answer to this question is pretty obvious- God is on the side of Peace. He refused to fight for His creation, allowing Lucifer to take over all but Paradise itself... but the few, quiet words Gabriel lets escape, the visions Yves has of a glorious new dawn, and the general blessing of the truce between Angel and Demon to preserve the Earth give rise to the hint that God has room for both selfishness and selflessness in His plan. In BV, you will have to answer this question in some way which is consistent with the handful of hints we get from the canon. Is God a vengeful God, seeking to destroy his Creation and start again? Or does the Orthodox Heaven have God's Plan wrong, and is God using the rebels to bring the foolish back in line? (4) HOW DO YOU GET AROUND EARTHLY UTOPIA? The Earth is at peace. Humans are immortal, their souls free to go up into Paradise or come down into perfect physical Vessels... or are they? If Heaven is in total control of Humanity, how do you re-introduce the Serpent to Eden? If Heaven -isn't- in control of Humanity, what is Humanity doing with Utopia? It's very easy to have Good and Evil continue in DV among humans. There must be just to persecute, there must be pockets of Order to have perfect Chaos. (Check the Mandelbrot set sometime; even Chaos has patterns.) In some places, humans work to continue life as it was before, while in others humans actively work to upset the old way of things. Earth will become like Hell, after a fashion, with the inmates going in all directions at once. BV is not nearly so easy. Whereas Hell is Chaos, Heaven is Order; what room is there for greed and destruction in a world where all desires are satisfied, where it is easier to create than destroy? If Earth is Utopia as promised in St. John's Revelation, you'll have a very difficult time as a rebel Celestial getting any help at all. On the other hand, if you go for the destroy-the-Earth angle, you've got a - -bigger- problem; the 'good' people of the Earth are all in Heaven, and what's left on Earth is the scum and malcontents, evil mixed with a spattering of non-Orthodox good. What are you going to do with that? (5) FINITE POWER V. INFINITE POWER In DV, I restricted the power levels involved by removing God as an active force and reducing Lucifer in his Redemption to his pre-Fall power levels. In a BV universe, however, you will almost certainly have to deal with God's real and active presence in Celestials' -daily lives.- The victory of Light implies that God has reclaimed his Creation from the rebels, and that means He is taking not only a direct but a forceful hand in affairs from now on. If you're playing IN backwards, sp. 'God is only a superior Etherial God,' this is an easy thing to get around. If you're playing it straight, this is another matter. God SEES all, KNOWS all, and can DO all. If you're not on His side, you'd better be asking yourself just why He hasn't smitten you down yet. I don't seriously expect any of the various inspirations to answer these questions to my satisfaction. If you haven't noticed, I've already written off a Bright Victory roleplay universe in my mind- and considering how much I've got to do yet on Dark Victory, that's probably a good thing. I'll leave Bright Victory to those inspired to the task, and I'll get back to the universe actively burning through my waking and sleeping mind. Redneck (it's not healthy to dream of a Seraph of Light inviting an Impudite of Lust on a date) Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | Do not taunt Happy Fun Belial. http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | * * * c/o White Lightning Productions | "I love the sweet smell of http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | humiliation in the morning!" Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- Kobal reaffirms himself http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 06:39:09 -0400 (EDT) From: IQJason@aol.com Subject: Re: Re: IN> Lilith John Dye wrote: > Any clues into the character of Lilith? Okay, she is freedom. Sometimes things humans like are under Infernal words. Sometimes things humans don't like are Divine. The Internet, after all, is a Medium, and under Nybbas' guidance, while the gangs that plague city streets are, at least nominally, David's. Earl Wajenberg responded: "As was posted earlier, it isn't the Freedom of liberty and equality, but the Freedom of irresponsibility." It's also, I think, the freedom to reject, to say no. It is, paradoxically, a controlling freedom. "Sterility would also be an appropriate Word." [Controversy Alert] Hmm...actually, perhaps either the Demon of Birth Control or the Demon of Abortion is a Lilim of Vapula. After all, imagine the strength of the Need to "not have an unwanted child." It'd also explain why contraceptive measures so far have been so prone to breakdowns (the IUD, for example) and why the Church has been opposed to both for so long. yours, there's a write-up in this one, - -J ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 08:23:00 -0400 From: johnk@ascc01.ascc.lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) Subject: IN> In Nomine news Just a couple of quick announcements: The In Nomine digests have moved to http://www.sjgames.com/ftp/sjgames/in-nomine/digests/ A webpage has been set up for the In Nomine jewelry. CoooooOOOOOoooool! http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/jewelry/ (Just the first design... there are more to come!) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 11:08:25 -0200 From: Andre Ribeiro Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Bright Victory? Redneck Gaijin wrote: > >What if, instead of Dark Victory, there'd been Bright Victory? > > > >I mean, Heaven probably wouldn't know what to do with itself, no longer > >having to work so hard to save so few souls from the darkness below. > > > >It would just be so *funny* for heaven to _finally_ win, and then be > >totally clueless. > Actually, you -can't- really have a play setting in Bright Victory. Sorry, but yes you can. It's written in canon (anyone remember it? ):-9) that when Hell is defeated, The Upper Levels of Heaven will be open for the angels and Archangels again. And that there are strange things up there, "greater celestial powers than the Archangels" (IN, pg 136) In a Bright Victory Universe, the Archangels simply realize they don't run the show anymore. The Greater Celestials Powers (GCP) will take Creation back and the AAs will have to cope with the Whole Heaven scheme of things... The conflict? It's pretty obvious: The AAs meet Whole Heaven and the GCP... but they don't like it. Why? I don't know. Maybe they are tyranical. Maybe they are removed from humanity for so long they don't know how to be around humans anymore. Maybe they consider the AAs as 'things from the past' or 'they don't have any use now' and have better plans for their Forces. I don't know. But the AAs don't wanna go gently into the night... and rebel. But where to? Hell is closed/destroyed. Earth? Why not? The GCP will take a while to get used to all that corporeal stuff again - if they want to at all! -, they are essentialy celestial beings, after all. So I see a setting where Earth is a New Eden (remember those pictures of people smiling, on the grass, feeding lions and lambs together? Sort of...), the surviving AAs rebeling aginst GCP for their lives/their moral code/humanity... Speaking of humanity. They will be living perfect lives - maybe their bodies all become vessels (Thou shall feell no hunger and no thirst...) -, why would anyone side with the Archangels? It depends on the nature of the GCP and their relations with the humans - and I can figure it as a good relation... Any comments? Andre, D.P. ):-9 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 11:14:06 -0200 From: Andre Ribeiro Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Still Andrealphus Kingsley Lintz wrote: > > > >> ANDRE: I think Fire should be under my Word. > > > >> ELI, LUCIFER and YVES: SIT DOWN. > > > >> ANDRE (sarcastic): Yes, -sir.- > > > >> End of discussion. > > > > Your Andrealphus isn't very smart, is he? > > Oh, he's smart all right! Have you read it carefully? Eli, Lucifer AND > >Yves - if they tell you to sit down, you sit down, period. > Which is why, if you're smart, you don't ask. Plus everything > else I said. Hello!! When you want power in Hell, you go and take it. In Heaven, you ask. That's how things work - and Andre is smart enough to see *that*. I am not saying he would do it in the first place. But if he thought he already have a consistent power basis and wanted the benefits of it, of course he would ask the council. But he would make things in a way they couldn't just tell him to sit down. That's Andre. Andre, D.P. ):-9 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 11:34:40 -0200 From: Andre Ribeiro Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Bright Victory? Andre Ribeiro wrote: > Speaking of humanity. They will be living perfect lives - maybe their bodies > all become vessels (Thou shall feell no hunger and no thirst...) -, why would > anyone side with the Archangels? It depends on the nature of the GCP and their > relations with the humans - and I can figure it as a good relation... I mean, and I *can't* figure it as a good relation... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 09:25:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] The Seed of Hope: An Introduction to Dark > > They had the Bible...and we had those resources, too. You all did > > damn good. > Good point. Hats off to JC and the Apostles. Jolly good work. > 'Course, they had this world thing to work off of...hm. Well, then, my > heartfelt congratulations to God for an excellent gaming system. It's got > a few holes here and there and once in a while I'm afraid it's completely > unrealistic, but...with a bit of fudging, it works. > Okay, so I read this, and laughed so hard I ALMOST wet my pants. You must try harder next time. (It doesn't help that I'm finishing off Norman Mailer's "The Gospel According to the Son".) Ah-hem. Another letter from Kobal just arrived on my desk. I'm supposed to deliver this. Dear God, Hats off to an excellent gaming system. I have found that Your world is well detailed with many interesting areas to explore and many of Your subplots lead to interesting chances for role-playing. Your NPCs are very well detailed, and I can't believe how many You've created, ready to use! An incredible 7 billion. Unfortunately, I have noticed that Your GMing style requires a little work. I have found some of Your rulings to be a bit arbitrary, and without reason. I shouldn't need to remind You that a GM needs to be fair! And I do see that, yes, God does indeed play with dice. I would also like to add that I seem to be missing my copy of the rules. None of my friends seem to have one either. Can You please email a copy in postscript to kobal@shal-mari.hell.org? It would be appreciated. Your good buddy and pal, KOBAL, Dark Prince of Warm Fuzzies (I'm watching Kobal's most weird little Lilim servant, creep away laughing like a loon.) Emily K. Dresner, M.S.Eng. Applications Programmer III and Balseraph of the Game Desktop Applications Team - Medical Center Information Technology Current Quote: "Let's be bad." - Bart Simpson ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 09:37:09 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Choir/Band stereotypes Personally, I always thought James Bond, Mrs. Peel, D'Artagnan, or Reepicheep would be good role-models for Malakim that DO manage to have senses of humor. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 09:28:08 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Adventure Seed: Dream a Little Dream of Me Perry M. Lloyd asks: > What _does_ hapless mean, anyway? Means out of hap. "Hap" is an old word for luck. "Happy" used to mean "lucky," and "happenstance" means "random occurence." Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 11:54:11 -0200 From: Andre Ribeiro Subject: Re: IN>Dark Victory Backwards (Long) Chris Jackson wrote: > Soon, all will be as it was. There will be only God. God and Yves, alone forever, as it was before Michael came between them. Hmmm...So, Yves and God were like...a couple? Oh my...! Tell *me* about going kinky!! YVES: Oh God! Oh God!! GOD: Yes!! Yeees!!! Sorry, it was stronger than me... Andre, D.P. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 11:49:52 -0200 From: Andre Ribeiro Subject: Re: IN>Dark Victory Backwards (Long) Chris Jackson wrote: > After the War, the Earth is . . . nice. Stable. A Utopia, even. And everyone is happy. Everyone. Jeez, what I wrote is too similar to this setting... but, Chris, you've forgotten the Greater Celestial Powers, dear... The kinda conflict you propose is similar to mine, but using ye olde Archangels we know - I think when Heaven opens, the AAs will have more things to worry about... But Uriel may sure be just one of these things... Andre, D.P. > ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #419 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.