From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Oct 23 00:10:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA20943 for ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 00:10:49 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id XAA23460 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 23:54:57 -0500 Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 23:54:57 -0500 Message-Id: <199710230454.XAA23460@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #424 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, October 22 1997 Volume 01 : Number 424 In this digest: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] General Observation Re: IN> Dark and Bright Victories Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Dominic, Demon Prince of Cleansing Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Dominic, Demon Prince of Cleansing Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Return of Uriel? Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Bright Victory? Re: IN> B5 Victory Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] General Observation Escaping dissonance (Was: Re: IN> Re: Redeeming Shedim: it can be done) IN> [DARK VICTORY] The Seed of Fate Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Dominic, Demon Prince of Cleansing Re: IN> In Nomine Clarifications & House Rules Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Bright Victory? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 21:01:57 -0500 (CDT) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] General Observation >There is already an angel with the word of hope, it's one of Blandine's >, the menunim) who cast her vote whem the AA's met, because she didn't >give a damn about [politics. Hrm....A Dp or wordbound of Despair? with >the current conditions it would be a REALLY strong word, and with >despari comes suicide and with suicide comes dead people and with dead >people comes more people in hell and people in hell=happy fun time! (for >saminga that is....) Ah, the Menunim are a -group-, Blandine's servants in general. Beth listed Blandine and Beleth as 'missing,' but both their Towers are tumbled to the ground and their foundations removed... if they aren't dead, they've fled so far into the Marches nobody's ever going to find them. The Menunim didn't hold Hope, per se- Blandine did, along with Gabriel, and now Blandine is gone and Gabriel is too weak and depressed. Redneck Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | Do not taunt Happy Fun Belial. http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | * * * c/o White Lightning Productions | "I love the sweet smell of http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | humiliation in the morning!" Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- Kobal reaffirms himself http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 21:14:08 -0500 (CDT) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> Dark and Bright Victories > >Dark Victory: I want the Kobal writeup. Pretty, pretty, please. I >can just picture his undevoured forces, sitting in Hag's stomach, Not in Haagenti's stomach. He found him strangely less than filling. What -really- happened to him is a matter for the future... };-{D And until that future shows itself, no writeup for the Archangel of Laughter. >And I also really want to see what Hermes..er I mean Valefor..er I >mean Janus.. is up to. Getting some of the pagans together? Who >knows? Just interested to see your(Mr. Redneck Gaijin's) take on it. > I've already given my take on it- sp. I refuse to take a take until Derek or the Secret Masters have took a took. }:-{D I do plan to remind players that Janus is around with 'Reap the Whirlwind,' and that he does have a couple of Servitors still loyal to him, but he'll never make a face-to-face appearance in -my- DV writing. If the Secret Masters will make players guess, then by Yves so am I. };-{D Redneck Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | Do not taunt Happy Fun Belial. http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | * * * c/o White Lightning Productions | "I love the sweet smell of http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | humiliation in the morning!" Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- Kobal reaffirms himself http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 21:19:00 -0500 (CDT) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Dominic, Demon Prince of Cleansing Ahem. In the previous post: Judge DEATH is a fun villain. Redneck (could make Dredd a heavy too, but I meant the uglier one) Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | Do not taunt Happy Fun Belial. http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | * * * c/o White Lightning Productions | "I love the sweet smell of http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | humiliation in the morning!" Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- Kobal reaffirms himself http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 21:18:57 -0500 (CDT) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Dominic, Demon Prince of Cleansing >Am I the only one who thought DV Dominic reminded them of Judge Death, from >the old 2000AD comics? Death was a semi-regular villian for Judge Dredd and >Judge Anderson. He's also totally and utterly bugfuck - "life is a crime, >the sentence is Death!" > I wasn't thinking of him, but you have a valid point. But then, there have been numerous examples of the type not only in fiction, but in some of our darker moments in real life. Redneck (Judge Dredd is a fun villain anyway) Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | Do not taunt Happy Fun Belial. http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | * * * c/o White Lightning Productions | "I love the sweet smell of http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | humiliation in the morning!" Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- Kobal reaffirms himself http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 21:33:48 -0500 (CDT) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Return of Uriel? > >This is sort of what I was thinking. Yes, Uriel would be totally >unimpressed with the demons siding with New Heaven, but I don't see that >he's going to be a totally unreasoning must-kill-them-all-right-now >munchkin. I'd also hope that his recall would have taught him a bit of >moderation. From the vague hints we've had here, I don't think so, but that's your interpretation. >I was just trying to think of who would be powerful enough to go anywhere >near Saminga/Dominic, and Uriel was about the only name that came to mind >(aside from a reincarnated Michael, but that seems a copout). Eli. Lucifer. The balance is tipped towards Hell on purpose. I don't -want- it tipped back so quick, -especially- by someone with such a narrow mind as Uriel. >As to his choice of targets - I guess it depends on how you'd write him >up. Uriel is one of the Superiors I never really got a good handle on. >Some of the stuff about him makes him seem like a more powerful and more >inflexible canon Dominic, but my own feelings about his character have him >as a bit gentler. The rampage against the creatures of myth was more an >error of judgement than a total psycho-munchkin killing frenzy. > Error or not, the fact that he decided pretty much unilaterally to do it because he thought it was Right says a *lot* about his judgement. My opinion on this is, if Uriel comes into DV (and I have plans for only one Archangel ever emerging from the Upper Heavens), he'll be like Jordi- EVERYBODY'S enemy. Redneck Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | Do not taunt Happy Fun Belial. http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | * * * c/o White Lightning Productions | "I love the sweet smell of http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | humiliation in the morning!" Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- Kobal reaffirms himself http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 22:57:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Bright Victory? I refuse to back down from a flame war. > >Which is fine, and even understandable. But I have read well over 20 > >posts of "you're wrong" or "you missed the point" or "that can never > >happen." After a while I start running around screaming, tearing out my > >hair, and lighting up Spiffy of the Throwing Flames, my pet imp. > > Ah, the Balseraph exaggerates. (Or else I *REALLY* have too much time on my > hands. }:-{D ) 20 posts? Hmmm... No, you really had that much time on your hands. Multiple on Andrealphus, on Lilith (No, you're wrong, that's not how it is), several on people's takes on the Bright stuff, a few on why Uriel would certainly never belong no matter how many people wondered, two to me... I'm just waiting for the Dominic stuff to start up. I'm running for cover. I had eighty messages waiting for me this morning. Half of them were from you. And all of them contained some way that the person was offbase/incorrect/wrong or just out of sorts. I wouldn't be saying anything if there wasn't such a volume. My problem with it is saying "This is the way it's gotta be". And hell, like I asked, why don't you just put it all up somewhere? Why ask for comments? Why bother? > The above quote is only peripherally related to this post, but I think it > makes my real attitude here clear. Ah, yes, Dilbert. I bow down to your incomparible wit. *bow* > >It's an interesting universe, but please, don't post it to a public list > >if you don't want people to make comments, or disagree, or try to > >tweak, or point out differing ways of doing things, because people like > >myself DO. I thought that was the entire point of the list in the first > >place. But if we're supposed to take it in a nice seran wrapped package, > >then put it on a web page and post a URL. We'll read it. > > I post it here because it's much faster for me to get it out this way. Sure. Then don't flame every response that disagrees with your universe personally. And I ask again, if your universe only has one answer, one take on things, one view, and it's yours, then why are you bothering to post it to the group? When I post, I'm trolling for ideas and concepts. I'd rather have a dozen posts of dissenting opinion then a dozen posts of people telling me I'm wonderful. There's no learning from that. > Anyway, a Bright Victory universe wouldn't really have anything to do with > DV. Part of why I've been so vehement about the Bright Victory side is as > justification, I suppose, for my not having done it -first.- (As opposed to > doing Dark Victory first.) And, let me guess, it would all be kosher with you if you had written that first instead. > > >No, we can't see what's up inside your head. That's what communication is > >for. But let people have their views without squishing them. > > The thing is, I'm still waiting to see some fully developed ideas on Bright > Victory. So far, the vague concepts I've seen for the set either fall > completely flat to me or involve the 'IN Backwards' concept... and none of > them go beyond 'Wouldn't it be nice if...' Of the lot, I like Chris' > 'jealous Yves' concept best, and it *HORRIFIES* me. No one has had the time. Most of us have jobs. I, myself, would like to get away from my email. It's a mail list. People are bantering around concepts. That's how it works, I believe. And I'm sorry if we fail to entertain. I will be calling forth the dancers prompty. *clapclap* > different from my own, both for IN and personal religious upbringing purposes> Yes, well. I said to someone this morning that religion is mostly God going around to different cultures, wearing different funny hats anyways. I apologize for being religiously offensive - that one was not intentional. > > > >Utopias are not always pretty, happy things. They usually suck. That's > >why they're so facinating. And if you ask me, there's plenty of story > >there. George Orwell certainly didn't have a problem. > > Orwell wrote of dystopias, not utopias. Somehow it strikes me that if you wipe out most of the population you end up with pretty much the same thing. > I don't believe in Utopia for the simple reason that humanity is incompetent > to keep itself from spoiling it. > > I don't believe in dystopias because humanity -also- is not competent to > keep itself from spoiling -them,- too. > > DV falls in the middle. I suppose. The point was a Bright Victory, not a dark victory, and that brightness would bring about an imperfect Utopia within creation, and from which would bring someone tapping furiously on the keyboard of their word processor. Somehow it always leads to the tapping. *look for a the Raven* You are, of course, going to fall in the middle. Most of civilization has been wiped out. There's no props in place to maintain a utopia/dystopia atmosphere, except in Hell itself. Certainly not for humanity. > >Good. I'm glad you find other people's options also worthy enough to keep > >an eye on. > > Of course. Listening to other peoples' opinions makes me re-examine my own > more closely. When you aren't telling them how wrong they are, of course. People have *good* ideas, and sometimes it comes out in pieces, and sometimes it's sort of disjoint ramblings. But I don't think anyone deserves to be stomped on for just contributing. > >I'm not picking a fight. Or maybe I am. I'm spin doctoring again. But I > >do think that, if one is going to post a universe and tell what is right > >and wrong, one should at least read what other people have to say. > > Well, when (if) people actually post about DV, I will. But Bright Victory as > has been explained here is not a backwards version of DV, it is the polar > opposite of DV... and really, now that I've had time to think about it, > nothing I need to concern myself over save in the casual-interest fashion. I'm glad to see that you hold others opinions to the same height as your own views. Higher, in fact. Me, I read everything, except WoD/SJG flamewars, because I don't really see the point in those. I don't really play WoD games. > > >On the other hand, I can flame anyone, flameproof or not. :) > > > You keep tellin' yourself that, Happy Fun Balseraph... };-{D I'm not feeling particularly happy or fun right now. But, in the grand sense of In Nomine, I'm starting to understand Kobal. Which is good, because he appears in my game, and I need that. For a while it's fun to taunt, but it gets irritating. Now if I could fine my metal pan and my can of whipped cream, I'd be set. Personally, I don't really care. What bothers me is not the setting, or the reaction, or anything like that. What bothers me is the personal attempt to tell every excited, interested, and perky person who wishes to contribute that the opinions they give are worthless because they are "wrong". There is no right or wrong, except up in one's own mind. Defend your world, fine. Discuss alternatives, fine. But don't just come out and say, "You can't do that" or "It's not interesting to me, I don't care" or "It falls flat, and because it's not in my canon it's wrong/backwards (is my Word now a derogatory term?)" or "You are just incorrect". I couldn't believe you said that to ArchAngel Beth over LILITH. You know what? In my head, they CAN do that, and it IS interesting to ME, and no one is incorrect (except Malakim are demons, I believe whole heartedly.) Why? About now it's time to whip out "IT's just a game", and that if people want to discuss things different, or make "bright" versions, or change it a bit, then they should and shouldn't have to take lip about it. It makes for stimulating email that I can read later, and I don't have to post a long rambling rebuttel. Talking about post-Apocalypse is interesting reading, either way its approached. Take it any way you want, but that's my stand. But do me a favor. Next time you aren't interested in what people have to say? Don't say it out loud. *wave hand* I'm done. I've said what I had to say. Time to move on to a new subject. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 22:05:43 -0500 (CDT) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> B5 Victory >> Okay, now someone's being just silly... }:-{D > >I don;t think so. Humans in the IN universe hold a lot more power than >they're usually given credit for. I referred to the subject header. }:-{D >> >What if the *humans* win Armageddon? > >> And how will the humans win? Weight of numbers? The Children of the Grigori? >> Perhaps Eli's been making weapons for them in the meantime? > >Actually, this concept should play a significant part in the Etherial >Victory Dotti and I are working the kinks out of. > Well, yes, but I think the original poster had something else in mind. Redneck (Superpowerful aliens v. superpowerful aliens, humans in the middle, humans win, short version, Oops) Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | Do not taunt Happy Fun Belial. http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | * * * c/o White Lightning Productions | "I love the sweet smell of http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | humiliation in the morning!" Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- Kobal reaffirms himself http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 23:26:05 -0400 From: Perry Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] General Observation Redneck Gaijin wrote: > Ah, the Menunim are a -group-, Blandine's servants in general. Beth listed > Blandine and Beleth as 'missing,' but both their Towers are tumbled to the > ground and their foundations removed... if they aren't dead, they've fled so > far into the Marches nobody's ever going to find them. The Menunim didn't > hold Hope, per se- Blandine did, along with Gabriel, and now Blandine is > gone and Gabriel is too weak and depressed. > > Redneck Kay so, forget hope, like i said, Despair or Depression would be a supremely powerfull word in a wrld gone to hell in a handbasket. If it dosen't belong to a wordbound of Saminga, it deserves its own Dp, if even an AA can get Depressed...... Perry, you know the drill.... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 01:02:21 +0100 From: Sam Kington Subject: Escaping dissonance (Was: Re: IN> Re: Redeeming Shedim: it can be done) Nana Yaw Ofori wrote: [snip] > Even blowing your nose on a napkin doesn't really "indisputably > harm someone." If the busboy scoops it up and never notices all the snot on > it, and he doesn't get sick, nobody's really harmed, and it doesn't count. > Even if he does notice, he's still not really harmed by it. He's probably > seen worse, depending on the restaurant. Now if he catches a nasty cold > from it, that's different. But having that manifest could take hours, or > days, and you won't know whether it worked till then. You'll find out > whether it did if it's the only nasty thing you do that day and you take > dissonance. [snip] I don't think it should be like that - sit around wondering if you did enough this day, the clock strikes midnight, the daily rush of Essence comes in and, oh damn, what's this? a note of Dissonance comes in as well. There are, IIRC, two types of dissonance (Choir/Band or Superior): 1) You get dissonance for doing something you're not supposed to 2) You get dissonance if you don't do at least [foo] every so often Now, if you go up against 1) and you put your foot in it, you know straight away: kill a human, tell a lie, sit still on the chair like you were told, and you'll know *immediately* that you did wrong. I think 2) should work the same way: the host takes a penknife to a book in the library (even Mein Kampf), the prank goes off just as planned, another cruel gang boss gets his just reward, and you're off the hook for the day. I think you should be hearing the subtle tones of dissonance creeping up on you if you're the sort of Celestial that has to do every so often, and they get louder and louder as time passes, as the clock ticks and the deadline approaches. If you meet your target, your nature is reaffirmed, the clock is reset, the deadline is suddenly far away again, the dissonance warning tones drop away to almost nothing: you should *know* this. I reckon it feels similar to the Jaws theme tune. Maybe certain agents of Dominic should be able to hear this as well. (Heaven and Hell hasn't arrived here in Glasgow yet, so I don't know if this is part of the extended write-up.) Comments, anyone? Sam - -- There are *my* opinions, dammit, and let no-one say otherwise. Home page: http://www.illuminated.co.uk/ INWO Homebrew: http://www.illuminated.co.uk/cgi/illuminati Cogito Ergo Sum, Cogito. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 21:48:57 -0500 (CDT) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: IN> [DARK VICTORY] The Seed of Fate "What do you want with me, Malphas?" Kronos asked, apparently not looking up from the huge parchment book in which he wrote. The soft-spoken Balseraph wrote with a steady hand, his bold handwriting imparting added weight to the obscene squiggles of the Diabolical tongue appearing in blood-red ink beneath his quill. "Only to talk," Malphas' ghostly presence replied, the oily fog which was the Shedim Prince of Factions wrapping around the room, then collapsing back into its most accustomed mimicry, that of a middle-aged bearded man, ripples of sickly light running through his vaguely humanoid shape. "I was wondering what Lucifer is thinking about, alone." "I was wondering where you were when we marched across the Plain of Megiddo," Kronos replied without rancor. "I hardly expect I shall have an answer, though." He reached over to a small blotter, blotting the page and looking it over in silent satisfaction before turning it carefully over. "Perhaps Lucifer shall betray us," Malphas smiled. "After all, each of us now poses a threat to his rule... especially yourself," he probed carefully. "After all, you are closest in power to him." "I am not," Kronos said bluntly, dipping his pen into an inkwell and beginning a new paragraph, scribbling quietly in Hell's newest Record while Malphas watched. "You -aren't?-" Malphas gasped. "If not you, then who?" "Saminga," Kronos said, his hand writing on without error or blemish, each letter like the others in style and neatness. "The battle gave him much raw power, and now he is feeding on the humans much the same way the human eat candies... he is already more powerful than I, much more." "Saminga," Malphas spat out the name. With virtually every other Demon Prince, Malphas could put on an effortless false front. Kronos saw through it, but didn't care. With Saminga, though... Malphas could not even pretend to like Saminga, and spent every minute possible out of the Prince of Death's diseased, insignificant presence. "Saminga... is stronger than - -you?-" Kronos' pen stopped for a moment. "I believe I said that, yes." Malphas' nebulous form shivered, losing its shape for a moment before reforming. "That disturbs me very, very greatly, Kronos," he said at last. "I've felt Saminga should have been crushed for a long time now... with Heaven defeated, perhaps we should turn our-" A siren like the screams of a billion souls rang through the bowels of Hell, shaking the cracked spires of Hades, setting the volcano of Sheol to eruption, running up and down the spines of every soul in the accursed realm. The siren sounded rarely, perhaps not more than once every two years, but when it did every Demon Prince paid attention. *Escape.* Kronos and Malphas flew from the small office in the back corners of Hades into the depths of Hell, down and in through the circles, assembling at last in the uttermost depths of the realm, in the antechamber of Lucifer's throne room. Haagenti stood there already, as did Furfur, the two Calabites watching grimly as Kronos and Malphas appeared. Vapula followed a moment later, his scarred Habbalah form covered in tiny fragements of gleaming Forces, the hideous perversions left over from vivisecting a Celestial. "Whose realm set off the alarm?" Kronos asked. ABADDON, Haagenti growled, his drooling maw grating out each syllable. SAMINGA'S TORTURERS SAY AN ARCHANGEL CAME DOWN AND RESCUED NOVALIS. "Novalis?" Kronos asked quietly. "Which Archangel? Did they get a look?" NOPE, Haagenti rumbled. THE MESSENGER SAID IT WAS A GIANT SERAPH, GLOWIN' SO BRIGHT HE COULDN'T LOOK DIRECTLY AT HIM. He burped quietly, then grinned, SO I ATE HIM. "Doubtless a reasonable thing to do," Malphas said, without the least trace of irony. "Seraph, seraph," Kronos thought to himself very quietly. "All the Seraphim Archangels have been accounted for, have they not?" "You'd know best, book boy," Furfur grumbled from his slouch against the chamber wall. Before Kronos could respond to the jibe, a new creature appeared in the room. At first glance, it appeared to be the unguised Celestial form of a Balseraph, darkly glowing serpentine body, dark wings, six glowing eyes... but the form wrenched the eyes almost as bad as a Shedim, features shifting, colors flowing back and forth in hideous patterns, and the whole glowing with a power not far removed from any of the demons in the room. "...kill them, slay them, clean the Earth, clean the WORLD, I'll slay them all, smite them down for God, oh yes..." The thing gibbered madly, spinning around in the room, looking from one Prince to the next. Finally, with a pause, it said, "I'll kill him, you know. Wipe him away. Expunge him from all existence. I'll do it, yes, yes." Kobal looked very calmly at the mad Balseraph and asked, "Kill who?" The Balseraph looked back and said, "Lucifer. Our Enemy. He's betrayed us, they've all betrayed us, they're consorting with him now, turning their back on God, oh yes, yes, he's Up There now, corrupting them all, tainting them, now they'll all have to die, oh yes, die and be ripped apart by the winds of righteousness, oh yes, God wants it, God told me to keep Creation loyal, he told me himself, he said, 'Dominic, this is a heavy responsibility,' and I said-" "So, you are Dominic?" Vapula asked, smiling his happy smile of discovery. "Would you mind if I had a closer look?" The Balseraph Dominic hissed, drawing back from Vapula, the dark shades flittering across his body brighting to gory oranges and reds. "BACK! I'LL KILL YOU!" it shrieked. "Kill you, kill you all, you're all unworthy, undeserving of God's mercy, only I, Dominic, Archangel of Cleansing, only I am worthy, I am God's instrument, God's Hand on the earth, striking down, strike strike strike!!!" The Balseraph spun around and around, crying louder and louder, "STRIKE! STRIKE THEM DOWN! CLEANSE THE WORLD, FOR YOU, MASTER, YOUR LOYAL SERVANT AWAITS!!" Through the walls it fled, back up to the higher levels of Hell, leaving the Demon Princes staring after it, confused. "Well, that was entertaining," Malphas said, this time with very heavy sarcasm. "Dominic has Fallen, hm?" Vapula smiled. "I'd love to have him down to Tartarus for a while..." AM I THE ONLY ONE WHO HEARD THAT BIT ABOUT LUCIFER? Haagenti snarled. YOU KNOW, THE BIT WHERE HE'S GONE UP ABOVE... WITH THE ARCHANGELS? One by one, the Demon Princes looked at each other, each realizing the truth behind Dominic's rantings. Almost at once, they rushed through the great doors into the very Heart of Hell... ... and there, on the throne where Lucifer had so many times pronounced sentence, sat a small, rotting shell of decay and gore, now humanoid, now totally alien, now something in between. Saminga looked up and said, "May I help you?" "Where is Lucifer?" Kronos asked bluntly. Saminga shrugged, grinning with a lipless smile. "Lucifer's unimportant. He always has been. I'm in charge now." Malphas struggled to hold his tongue, the effort sending his form into a dark, amorphous stormcloud of lights. Finally, he grated out, "Are you aware that Novalis, Dominic, and who knows what other Angels have been released?" Saminga shrugged. "They can't run. I'm everywhere now. Death is everywhere." He turned a rotted eyeball distractedly towards them, the other staring glassily off at nothing. "Don't you have anything important to tell me?" Each looked at the others, shifting their feet. Finally Kronos spoke for them all: "My Lord, why do you sit on the seat Lucifer formerly occupied?" Saminga grinned. "Because it's mine. I just let Lucifer use it while I had other things to do." His decayed grimace mocked the others as his eyes rolled around in his head. "I've got some free time now." Each looked to the others, just waiting for someone to make a move. Nobody did. Saminga leaned back in the Granite Throne, sighing a bubbling sigh. "Well, if I'm not needed, I'll check on my realm." He stood up from the seat, looking around. "Make sure nobody takes my chair, won't you?" With that single order, Saminga vanished. Haagenti looked around at the stunned Princes. WE'RE IN TROUBLE, AREN'T WE? "Deep trouble," Malphas replied. "Very deep." "Eeeh, trouble shmouble," Vapula shrugged. "That cretin can have the throne, if he wants it... and if Lucifer has turned traitor, where's he going to run?" He grinned merrily. "In the meantime, I have an experiment to get back to...." He trotted out the door happily, already cackling as fresh ideas came to mind. Haagenti and Furfur shrugged and ambled off as well, leaving Malphas and Kronos at the foot of the Granite Throne, looking at each other. "Do you think Lucifer actually Redeemed?" Malphas asked quietly. Kronos nodded, very very slowly. After a long pause, he said, "It never would have worked, you know." Malphas blinked. "What would never have worked?" Kronos looked impassively at the Prince of Factions. "I would never have taken on Lucifer. I was totally loyal to him. I still am, really." "Why don't you follow Lucifer, then, O Loyal One?" Malphas mocked. "I cannot," Kronos sighed, and he sat on the rock floor in front of the empty Granite Throne, looking up at the Shedim with an expression of helpless, quiet despair. "I have known ever since I Fell... I shall spend the rest of my existence in Hell." He looked off into space, whispering, "It is my Fate," and said no more. Malphas looked quietly at the doomsman of Hell for a long, long while before he turned away from him and walked out the doors. He had a lot of work to do, and he had to get his Servitors to work finding out just where everything stood... ...and where everyONE stood. It doesn't do for the Demon Prince of Factions to not know who the factions are. --- Redneck Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | Do not taunt Happy Fun Belial. http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | * * * c/o White Lightning Productions | "I love the sweet smell of http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | humiliation in the morning!" Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- Kobal reaffirms himself http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 04:05:50 GMT From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Dominic, Demon Prince of Cleansing On Wed, 22 Oct 1997 21:04:53 -0500 (CDT), redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) wrote: >>>Forgot to list Basic Rites for Dommie. >>> >>>BASIC RITES >>> >>> * Spend a day (24 hours) in ritual meditation in private, or 8 hours in >public >>> * Spend an hour preaching prejudice and hate to a crowd >>> * Slay a Celestial (+3 Essence, is exempt from the Dissonance requirement) >> >>On the last, vessel death or soul death? >> >Ooh, good distinction. +1 Essence for vessel death, +3 for soul death. JFWIW, Dominic is +3 for vessel death. Gabriel is +3 for "death", whether vessel or soul isn't specified--I'd guess vessel to match Dominic. Soul death is *really* hard to manage. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 04:05:44 GMT From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Clarifications & House Rules On Wed, 22 Oct 1997 20:59:59 +0000, "Nathaniel Eliot" wrote: >Sorry for picking so hard - I hadn't realized this was for a specific >game... No problem: I appreciate the input. >> >> 1. You may be assigned by your Superior to serve another superior. >> >> Should that superior be of sufficient stature to impose dissonance >> >> (Archangels and Demon Princes, certainly), you will be subject to >> >> dissonance from both your AA or DP and your immediate superior, as >> >> well as your Chorus or Band. You will, of course, be able to >> >> invoke that immediate superior. >> >> (Clarification.) ... >I'd say it shouldn't be automatic - if the superior wants to to >impose those conditions, then he/she will, but not until - there may >be plenty of reasons not to. Though I would suggest that if the >dissonance conditions aren't there, they should get a -5 to invoke >the Superior. Yeah, a superior might want celestials from other Superiors precisely because they don't gain dissonance as his celestials do. For this particular campaign, the dissonance condition from the superior is a necessary tool. >"When God needed to punish someone...he sent an angel. Have you >ever wondered what a creature like that must be like? Your >whole existence praising your God but always with one wing >dipped in blood. Would you ever really want to see an angel?" > - The Prophecy Cool quote. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 23:47:39 -0500 (CDT) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Bright Victory? > >> Ah, the Balseraph exaggerates. (Or else I *REALLY* have too much time on my >> hands. }:-{D ) 20 posts? Hmmm... > >No, you really had that much time on your hands. Multiple on Andrealphus, >on Lilith (No, you're wrong, that's not how it is), several on people's >takes on the Bright stuff, a few on why Uriel would certainly never >belong no matter how many people wondered, two to me... Oh, well, I thought you were just referring to the Bright Victory stuff. If someone asks me 'why not X, Y, or Z?' I'm going to state why. >I'm just waiting for the Dominic stuff to start up. I'm running for >cover. Dominic doesn't worry me nearly as much as Lilith.... >I had eighty messages waiting for me this morning. Half of them were from >you. And all of them contained some way that the person was >offbase/incorrect/wrong or just out of sorts. I wouldn't be saying >anything if there wasn't such a volume. Well, with the Bright Victory stuff you're right, and that's why I'm trying to step back from that. On Dark Victory, though, since it's stuff I'm writing, I feel -obligated- to explain why somebody's personal take on things doesn't fit in with my plans or concepts. >My problem with it is saying "This is the way it's gotta be". And hell, >like I asked, why don't you just put it all up somewhere? Why ask for >comments? Why bother? > (1) Discussion forces me to re-analyze the decisions I make whenever I respond. Sometimes I'm wrong, sometimes I think of something better thanks to the discussion. (2) Whether or not the material appears here or on a web site first, discussion would end up here. (3) The discussion inspires people to do their own stuff as well. I'm actually curious about which Bright Victory scenario gets written up, and I'm actively looking forward to Grey Victory (even if I don't understand it) or 'B5 Victory.' >Sure. Then don't flame every response that disagrees with your universe >personally. I haven't flamed anyone, aside from a couple of playful Balseraph comments to you. I'm defending my positions in as rational and calm a way as I know how. And I ask again, if your universe only has one answer, one >take on things, one view, and it's yours, then why are you bothering to >post it to the group? because when someone else thinks of something that works, and works well, it becomes worthwhile. Beth's Lilith bits are an example- she's got the character and situation down now at least as well as -I- do. The stuff I've disagreed with so far, though; 'Andre will steal parts of Gabbi's Word.' - I disagreed because the specific concepts involved wouldn't work with his old Word, and there are other, easier ways for him to play for power. 'Bright Victory' etc. - I'm backing off that, since it's pretty obvious I'm the only one with a blind spot that way. 'Uriel should come down from Heaven' - The best rationale I've heard so far on this is, 'Well, Uriel's really not so bad as he seems,' and I've seen no compelling arguement against my points; not only would Uriel shift power heavily towards Heaven if let in, he'd be just as likely to attack some or all of the Preservers. >When I post, I'm trolling for ideas and concepts. I'd rather have a dozen >posts of dissenting opinion then a dozen posts of people telling me I'm >wonderful. There's no learning from that. Same here, and I -am- learning from the discussion. Most of what I'm learning at the moment doesn't change my mind, though. >> Anyway, a Bright Victory universe wouldn't really have anything to do with >> DV. Part of why I've been so vehement about the Bright Victory side is as >> justification, I suppose, for my not having done it -first.- (As opposed to >> doing Dark Victory first.) > >And, let me guess, it would all be kosher with you if you had written that >first instead. No, it wouldn't. But I'm a flawed human and prone to blind spots and jealousy. When I figure out I'm wrong, I try to admit it and shut up. Now, listen very carefully. *I*WAS*WRONG*ABOUT*BRIGHT*VICTORY*BEING*IMPOSSIBLE*OR*UNINTERESTING.* Admitted. Now may I shut up about it? }:-{D >> The thing is, I'm still waiting to see some fully developed ideas on Bright >> Victory. So far, the vague concepts I've seen for the set either fall >> completely flat to me or involve the 'IN Backwards' concept... and none of >> them go beyond 'Wouldn't it be nice if...' Of the lot, I like Chris' >> 'jealous Yves' concept best, and it *HORRIFIES* me. > >No one has had the time. Most of us have jobs. I, myself, would like to >get away from my email. If you've got an idea, I'll wait. }:-{D >It's a mail list. People are bantering around concepts. That's how it >works, I believe. True, but allow me to banter back in defense, so long as I do it reasonably. }:-{D >And I'm sorry if we fail to entertain. I will be calling forth the >dancers prompty. *clapclap* I never said this wasn't entertaining, not at all. }:-{D >> > different from my own, both for IN and personal religious upbringing purposes> > >Yes, well. I said to someone this morning that religion is mostly God >going around to different cultures, wearing different funny hats anyways. Good point. >I apologize for being religiously offensive - that one was not >intentional. > I'm not offended, at least. >> Orwell wrote of dystopias, not utopias. > >Somehow it strikes me that if you wipe out most of the population you end >up with pretty much the same thing. Not necessarily. In a Utopia, everyone gets along, happily and freely, without injuring each other on accident or purpose- in human terms, through strictly enforced rules. Dystopia is when everyone is miserable save for a slim elite, downtrodden and bereft of hope, again through strictly enforced rules. On the whole, life is splitting it down the middle. >When you aren't telling them how wrong they are, of course. > >People have *good* ideas, and sometimes it comes out in pieces, and >sometimes it's sort of disjoint ramblings. But I don't think anyone >deserves to be stomped on for just contributing. Jeez. Discussion involves more than one viewpoint. Sometimes you're going to have people disagree radically. But there's nothing wrong with saying, 'I think you're wrong, and this is why.' >> Well, when (if) people actually post about DV, I will. But Bright Victory as >> has been explained here is not a backwards version of DV, it is the polar >> opposite of DV... and really, now that I've had time to think about it, >> nothing I need to concern myself over save in the casual-interest fashion. > >I'm glad to see that you hold others opinions to the same height as your >own views. Higher, in fact. > >Me, I read everything, except WoD/SJG flamewars, because I don't really >see the point in those. I don't really play WoD games. I tend to read stuff that interests me or that I can understand. A lot of the deeper 'backwards IN' stuff leaves me cold not because the concept isn't interesting, but because I don't have the background in Celtic or Hindu or Babylonian or other religions others have. >> >On the other hand, I can flame anyone, flameproof or not. :) >> > >> You keep tellin' yourself that, Happy Fun Balseraph... };-{D > >I'm not feeling particularly happy or fun right now. But, in the grand >sense of In Nomine, I'm starting to understand Kobal. Which is >good, because he appears in my game, and I need that. For a while it's >fun to taunt, but it gets irritating. Now if I could fine my metal pan >and my can of whipped cream, I'd be set. I see. }:-{( Sorry to hear you down like that. >Personally, I don't really care. What bothers me is not the setting, or >the reaction, or anything like that. What bothers me is the personal >attempt to tell every excited, interested, and perky person who wishes to >contribute that the opinions they give are worthless because they are >"wrong". I have never called a person's opinions worthless. -EVER.- In my life. There is no right or wrong, except up in one's own mind. Defend >your world, fine. Discuss alternatives, fine. But don't just come out >and say, "You can't do that" or "It's not interesting to me, I don't care" >or "It falls flat, and because it's not in my canon it's wrong/backwards >(is my Word now a derogatory term?)" or "You are just incorrect". I >couldn't believe you said that to ArchAngel Beth over LILITH. If I had said, 'You're wrong,' and ended there, I'd be out of line, no doubt. And on Bright Victory, I -did- get out of line. But if I disagree or wish to point out my feelings on a post, should I ignore the post instead and just go on doing what I like, regardless of comment? I don't -think- so. >Take it any way you want, but that's my stand. But do me a favor. Next >time you aren't interested in what people have to say? Don't say it out >loud. > I was out of line about Bright Victory, okay? I apologize. Redneck (am I missing something here?) Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | Do not taunt Happy Fun Belial. http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | * * * c/o White Lightning Productions | "I love the sweet smell of http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | humiliation in the morning!" Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- Kobal reaffirms himself http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #424 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.