From owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Thu Oct 23 17:02:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA02660 for ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 17:02:54 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id QAA24000 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:36:57 -0500 Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:36:57 -0500 Message-Id: <199710232136.QAA24000@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #427 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@LISTS.IO.COM Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, October 23 1997 Volume 01 : Number 427 In this digest: Re: IN> toying with Kobal Re: Escaping dissonance (Was: Re: IN> Re: Redeeming Shedim: it c IN> In Nomine 5 [Human Victory] Re: IN> B5 Victory Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Bright Victory? Re: IN> Dark and Bright Victories Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] General Observation Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #412 Re: IN> Off topic, fluff kinda comment Re: IN> PBEM... well, not. Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Dominic, Demon Prince of Cleansing Re: IN> PBEM... well, not. Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Return of Uriel? Re: IN> B5 Victory Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Dominic, Demon Prince of Cleansing Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Bright Victory? Re: IN> B5 Victory Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Dominic, Demon Prince of Cleansing Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] General Observation Re: Escaping dissonance (Was: Re: IN> Re: Redeeming Shedim: it c Re: IN> B5 Victory Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Dominic, Demon Prince of Cleansing Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Dominic, Demon Prince of Cleansing Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] The Seed of Fate Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Brief Superiors Summary and Notes ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 18:50:52 +0100 From: "cd skogsberg" Subject: Re: IN> toying with Kobal Anthony Baxter wrote: [Kobal] > As to not biting, I think he does bite. He just uses the small wind > up novelty teeth. Lots and lots of them. Read Stephen King's short story _Chattery Teeth_ (in _Nightmares and Dreamscapes_, I think). Try _Dolan's Cadillac_ from the same collection, too. cd - -- "And it has come to pass that the Lord of the Woods, being ... Seven and nine, down the onyx steps ... (tri)butes to Him in the Gulf, Aza- thoth, He of Whom Thou hast taught us marv(els ..." - H. P. Lovecraft, _The Whisperer in Darkness_ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 18:27:10 +0000 From: "A. Nachmias" Subject: Re: Escaping dissonance (Was: Re: IN> Re: Redeeming Shedim: it c Sam Kington wrote: > I don't think it should be like that - sit around wondering if you did > enough this day, the clock strikes midnight, the daily rush of Essence > comes in and, oh damn, what's this? a note of Dissonance comes in as > well. There are, IIRC, two types of dissonance (Choir/Band or Superior): > 1) You get dissonance for doing something you're not supposed to > 2) You get dissonance if you don't do at least [foo] every so often > Now, if you go up against 1) and you put your foot in it, you know > straight away: kill a human, tell a lie, sit still on the chair like you > were told, and you'll know *immediately* that you did wrong. I think 2) > should work the same way: the host takes a penknife to a book in the > library (even Mein Kampf), the prank goes off just as planned, another > cruel gang boss gets his just reward, and you're off the hook for the > day. I think you should be hearing the subtle tones of dissonance > creeping up on you if you're the sort of Celestial that has to do > every so often, and they get louder and louder as time passes, as the > clock ticks and the deadline approaches. If you meet your target, your > nature is reaffirmed, the clock is reset, the deadline is suddenly far > away again, the dissonance warning tones drop away to almost nothing: > you should *know* this. I reckon it feels similar to the Jaws theme > tune. I must say I agree vigorously (you can sit now, Sam ;-). Dissoance isn't just something you note and continue, it's a thing which contradicts the celestial himself. When thinking of music and symphony (i.e. thinking of celestials) you can have a very loveable tune (pick any mooshy Mozart, he has lots of'em) or you can have a heavy, atrocious, distressing (umm, plenty of those around) but both will be harmonical. The same about celestials, as I see it. You can be a demon or an angel, still the part of symphony you sing is harmonical and is not only when you get dissonance. And as Sam said, there are two ways of disturbing the harmony of your singing, a plain out of the context note which can be immediately heard that he doesn't fit the harmony, or it could be a long change in the tune, stocking and increasing and only at a certain point can one hear with no doubt that this is a disturbance in the singer's harmony. Best Regards, A. Nachmias ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:49:35 -0500 (CDT) From: Martin Leslie Leuschen Subject: IN> In Nomine 5 [Human Victory] Well, I usually keep my posts short and sweet, but I guess this is my baby... The Proposal: Somehow the *Humans* win Armageddon. ***Campaign Possibility: Straight B5 Ripoff**** Ths will make no sense to those who follow B5, (Sorry Oops) but is easy to explain to Kosh (B5 fans). As it is only probably of interest to them, that's ok, although I do highly recommend the show. Straight In Nomine below, clearly marked. Run Armageddon as the Shadow war, with the following substitutions. (It doesn't exactly mesh, BTW, and is very sketchy. Season to taste.) Run your PC group as a bunch of mundanes (preferably military) that are recruited as Soldiers of God as the countdown to Armageddon begins. Kosh Classic is probably a Servant of Yves, who senses the Sheridan-Player has a Destiny so great the Angel can't comprehend it. Probably a Mercurian, but I can see arguments for almost any choir but Ofanim or Malakim. Kosh Vader is likely a Seraph of Judgement. To make them as incomprehensible and inaccessable as Vorlons, you'll probably have to make them Zen Buddist monks or something similar. Za'Ha'Dum is a *major* Tether, and if and when your players Nuke it, it has serious repercussions in Hell. Heaven proceeds to press it's advantage, with the Hardline AAs determining strategy... Battlecrabs are probably Shedim in specially prepared Hosts. (Demonic secret weapon.) White Stars are some artifact allowing humans to stand up to demons in a fight. (Angelic secret weapon.) Politics will have to be redone, or the time/place tweaked, but there's enough stuff going on in RL to make B5 politics look tame, if you want to emphasise that element. If you want the interesting time-travel/Valen thing, you can arrange for one of your PCs to be Jesus... Lorien is probably Eli and/or Yves and/or God himself, but a *really* ancient pagan god works as well. (Ptah?) It fits pretty well in my mind... *********Straight IN Discussion of Human Victory************* How can Humans win? Some thoughts. Admittedly disjoint and confused, so feel free to mix and match. Unlike DV or IN5, this is just brainstorming. - - IIRC, the dead shall rise from their graves during Armageddon to fight in the War. The Celestials' old advantage of "Kill them and they're out of the picture." may no longer apply. (But what happens when you *do* kill them?) - - Presumably, Armageddon will reduce the Celestials' advantage of "Virtually no humans know what is going on." If the humans get a clue, balance of power might change radically, especially if it becomes clear that neither side treats the humans particularly well. (If that is indeed true in your setting.) - - 10-30 *Billion* Essence Thats 10,000,000,000. If they can learn to focus and/or pool it... - - Sorcerors. There are rumored to be a few out there that are truely independant. They could help provide the knowledge and organization needed to resist the Celestials. Gregori and their kids can also help. Similarly, rogue Saints and Celestials may side with them. (Eli and Lilith spring to mind.) - - As Kingsley Lintz mentioned, Celestials, with their ingrained natures, can be easy to manipulate. *Especially* since most of them massively underestimate the Humans. - - God. A *lot* depends on your perception of God. a) "Straight" IN: God created Celestials to *Serve* humanity. This has been twisted, but that was part of His plan. Their final duty was to lead the humans into true independance and self-reliance, which can only be gained through struggle. (For extra Irony, end the campaign by placing the Humans over the Angels to Serve them...) b) "Backwards" IN (God is a Big, mean, Etherial) The Pagan Gods can participate in this one a lot more. The big difference here between Etherial Victory and Human Victory is that the Etherials aren't portrayed as any better than the Celestials, just as weaker. The humans take their place as masters of the Corpreal realm, leaving the Etherial to the Etherials and the Clestial to the Celestials. c) "Nilhistic" IN (God is Gone/uncaring/whatever) Similar to a), but without the warm fuzzy at the ending. - - Idea: A song that is a Song, taught subversively to all of Humanity. All The World Sings, and in the destruction and dispair of Armageddon, Humanity transcends, becoming something much bigger, much better, much brighter. As the stunned Clestials watch, the Glory that was humanity rises up and ascends into Upper Heaven. In the Silence that follows, the only thing heard is Yves lament: "God, oh please My God, don't leave me again..." Regards, Martin Leuschen martinl@rice.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 12:08:28 -0500 (CDT) From: Dorothy Bixler Subject: Re: IN> B5 Victory On Thu, 23 Oct 1997, Kingsley Lintz wrote: > > > Just to throw another idea in the pot: > > > What if the *humans* win Armageddon? > > Knee-jerk reaction: How? > Heck, if humans could learn a bit ABOUT the Celestials...my first > thought was "How?", too - the easy way is by default ("they pummel each > other to bloody pulps, and humans are all that's LEFT except for one dazed > Reliever named Ted."), but... We have that worked out for the Plaid... er... Pagan Victory we're working on. (tease, tease!) *Dorothy Michelle Bixler * mudmh10@ecom.ecn.bgu.edu* "Gidget, have you been laying with the Horned One again?" -MST3K's Mike from "The Thing the Couldn't Die" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 13:18:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Ozmodeus Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Bright Victory? According to Emily Dresner: > I thought a Plaid Victory was where all the ArchAngels and Demon Princes > came together for a Final Battle/Fashion Show, and they all stand around > commenting on each other's hair. *laugh* I thought a plaid victory was where Armageddon took place at a Mighty Mighty Bosstones concert. All the fans get slaughtered in the fracas so the victors are covered in blood and bits of plaid clothing from the surrounding gore. Or alternately, all the celestials kill each other and the Bosstones are the only ones left. They're declared supreme beings of the Universe by default, and we get a "Plaid victory"! Plaid victory indeed - *chortle* > > - Em, who has Bad Hair > Uh-huh, Suuure you do. Now that I'm onto that whole "balseraph" thing, you're not pullin any fast ones on me.... Dan Ozdowski always been kinds Calabimmy - I tend to break stuff - -- The Devil's Cabana Boy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 18:37:22 +0200 From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Dark and Bright Victories >Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 08:15:13 -0400 (EDT) >From: Emily Dresner >Subject: Re: IN> Dark and Bright Victories > >Okay, so I ask a standard In Nomine question... > >Why does everyone mess with poor Kobal? :) Does he have a tag on him? >"Hi. My name is Kobal. Please mess with my head. I don't bite." > I think its because they don't really understand him. jo ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 12:44:52 -0500 (CDT) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] General Observation >> >> If Saminga is pushed off the throne, though, the new occupant will almost >> definitely want new DPs, with the threat of New Heaven having grown under >> Saminga's oblivious leadership.... >> >What I see happening is that new demon princes are going to evolve from >the old remaining servants. Since new concepts are more important then >old (is the demon of MTV really going to get anywhere anymore), you're >going to end up with a set of new overriding concepts. > >I'm not sure "Depression" or "Despair" is going to be a demon prince. But >I think there are better, large ones. I guarentee you "Madness" will come >back in spades. Hm. Insanity, that's a heavy demonic word. >If you need a whole fleet of new guys who are trying to oust Saminga, I >suggest "Madness", "Oppression" (humans post-war always seem to end up >this way), Oppression is a good idea. Conquest less so, since in the DV world there's only a couple of forces around capable of it. And Fear was part of Beleth's old Word. I suspect DPs will be VERY LEERY of giving that to anyone for a while. Redneck Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | Do not taunt Happy Fun Belial. http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | * * * c/o White Lightning Productions | "I love the sweet smell of http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | humiliation in the morning!" Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- Kobal reaffirms himself http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 13:00:18 -0500 (CDT) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #412 >Redneck Gaijin wrote: >> >> >Just as a question, is it, like, officially cool to Dominic-bash on this >> >list? > >> So, we're talking about the DV Dominic here, not the IN Dominic. >> >> In IN, Dominic is anal-retentive, but a well-meaning anal-retentive. > >Perhaps the question should be "What is Dark Victory". I came in a bit >late, and missed this "milestone" which is sending about a hundred >messages a day about this. Any answers (besides, Luci wins, God loses, >game over)? > Archangel Beth has been kind enough to put the Dark Victory material on the INC as it comes out. That's the best place to catch up. It's based on the 'Dark Victory' fiction posted a couple weeks back in response to Beth's comment that souls in Hell might hope for an ANgelic victory. Redneck Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | Do not taunt Happy Fun Belial. http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | * * * c/o White Lightning Productions | "I love the sweet smell of http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | humiliation in the morning!" Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- Kobal reaffirms himself http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 13:58:06 -0400 From: Charybdis GreyDragon Subject: Re: IN> Off topic, fluff kinda comment [Charybdis] >> Eli? Quick and efficient? Doesn't efficiency counteract >>creativity? Maybe that's why he's hiding... Doesn't want all the hard >>work to interfere with his creative process... >> >> >>Peace, >> >>Charybdis GreyDragon >> >>** God is an Iron ** [Perry] >HA!!! :) > >Oh, sorry. Couldn't help it. >-Perry Was that "HA" to my comment or my tagline? And if the latter, does that mean you recognize the reference? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 13:58:22 -0400 From: Charybdis GreyDragon Subject: Re: IN> PBEM... well, not. [Rob] >> > >Sometimes keeping notes is the only hope I have. (This is true for games [Charybdis] >> > I keep some key notes... But they tend to be on major plot elements, not >> > on the nitpicking details that are the bane of my PBEM existence... [Rob] >> Hmm, yeah, this happens to me to, I guess. >> I do tend to keep summaries of the game, though. This is as much for me [Kingsley] > I have to admit, THE big advantage I've found to PBeM over live >gaming is the ability to save -everything-. (Heck, disk space is cheap >these days..) Yeah... that can be handy. Though, as I've said, it can be a double-edge sword when your players have better archives or are just better at finding the nit-picky details than you are. [Kingsley] > Though it can be problematic when you've got players >interacting directly...as came up in this conversation before, there's the >tendency for conversations to follow three different tangents >simultaneously, which usually isn't a problem for the GAME, but can be >very obnoxious to try to sort out to any kind of coherent chronology... Yeah... I tend not to worry TOO much about chronology unless it really matters... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 13:05:48 -0500 (CDT) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Dominic, Demon Prince of Cleansing >On Oct 23, 11:10am, Anthony Baxter wrote: >> Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Dominic, Demon Prince of Cleansing >> >> >>> Redneck Gaijin wrote >> > The world is unclean; it must be cleansed with fire and sword. Only >> > the holy and righteous may walk in God's light. > > Speaking of fires... I'm sure the DV Dominic would have been >_glad_ to pick up whatever parts of Fire were left when Belial >was waxed and Gabriel reduced. 'Cleansing Fire' and all that... About a quarter of Dominic's older demons are servitors of Belial who weren't in the head-to-head against Gabriel's troopers. And yeah, Dominic will be adopting a lot of fire-related aspects as time goes on.... Redneck (Another Gold Digger fan among the Secret Masters? I wonder if there's someone I could tempt into swapping GD or Athena subscriptions for a sub to Pyramid up there... ^_-) Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | Do not taunt Happy Fun Belial. http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | * * * c/o White Lightning Productions | "I love the sweet smell of http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | humiliation in the morning!" Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- Kobal reaffirms himself http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 13:57:55 -0400 From: Charybdis GreyDragon Subject: Re: IN> PBEM... well, not. [Rob] >> > >Sometimes keeping notes is the only hope I have. (This is true for games [Charybdis] >> > I keep some key notes... But they tend to be on major plot elements, not >> > on the nitpicking details that are the bane of my PBEM existence... [Rob] >> Hmm, yeah, this happens to me to, I guess. >> I do tend to keep summaries of the game, though. This is as much for me [Kingsley] > I have to admit, THE big advantage I've found to PBeM over live >gaming is the ability to save -everything-. (Heck, disk space is cheap >these days..) Yeah... that can be handy. Though, as I've said, it can be a double-edge sword when your players have better archives or are just better at finding the nit-picky details than you are. [Kingsley] > Though it can be problematic when you've got players >interacting directly...as came up in this conversation before, there's the >tendency for conversations to follow three different tangents >simultaneously, which usually isn't a problem for the GAME, but can be >very obnoxious to try to sort out to any kind of coherent chronology... Yeah... I tend not to worry TOO much about chronology unless it really matters... Peace, Charybdis GreyDragon charybdis@krilion.cnchost.com http://www.krilion.cnchost.com ** God is an Iron ** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 13:15:48 -0500 (CDT) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Return of Uriel? >(An aside - did Litheroy's fate get mentioned anywhere? I'm assuming from >the comment in the Seed of Fate story about Seraph AA's that he was toasted) > All the Seraph Archangels were 'accounted for.' That means either Litheroy got waxed or captured. If captured, he's still in Hell, either in Abaddon or Tartarus. (I suspect the latter, with Vapula using him as a tool of some sort.) I haven't finalized this because I don't have and probably won't be buying the GM Pack anytime soon, and so won't have Litheroy's or his counterpart's writeup to refer to for personality or other details. I'll leave it up to those who know better... ... if Litheroy was a 'hard-liner' or militant, he's dead. If he was less combative, he's in Hell being 'rewarded' for his unremitting honesty. Redneck Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | Do not taunt Happy Fun Belial. http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | * * * c/o White Lightning Productions | "I love the sweet smell of http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | humiliation in the morning!" Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- Kobal reaffirms himself http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 14:08:30 -0400 From: Highway Star Subject: Re: IN> B5 Victory At 22:05 -0500 10/22/97, Redneck Gaijin wrote: > >Redneck (Superpowerful aliens v. superpowerful aliens, humans in the middle, >humans win, short version, Oops) Actually, my RoleMaster GM and I had a conversation like this last night, and it all started with talking about some of the new GURPS supplements (UltraTech 2, Black Ops, Biotech), and the your Dark Victory scenario. So what happens to angels and demons who are corporeally killed in DV? I assume they go to heaven or hell - but that'd be fun trying to get back to Earth, eh? Anyways, so imagine that the Big Battle (tm) happens just slightly farther in the future...the angelic and demonic ranks are both decimated in the first few minutes of the battle, and they're busy regenerating vessels for all these fallen warriors. Meanwhile, back at the ranch (Earth), the humans are rallying together under various Doomsday scenario plans, and the governments try to regain their power. This is in the future, and they gather their high tech forces that are left to slug it out with marauders, bandits, etc, and with whatever demons or angels try to kill their people. "Son, I don't care if they're demons, angels, or goddamn pinko Commie swine! I'm still going to pump 'em full of lead for blowin' up that buiding full of refugees!" Anonymous Texas Mecha Ranger And since the celestials are desperate to avoid corporeal death (who wants a chance to avoid the Destroyers legions in Heaven or Hell if they can avoid it?) they have to be damn careful not to get killed. It's even funnier if the lead battle took place much earlier, so they're not expecting a human to pack much of a punch - of if they pulled in a lot of reinforcements that had last been on Earth in the Middle Ages, or even the Stone Age... "Hah! Back in my day one angel could stand up to hordes of humans! Hey, what's this little green ball..." BOOM. "He has a rifle? BWAHAHA! No demon cares about a human with a rifle..." "Sir, that's an Armson X-28A x-ray laser rifle. You might want to take cover." "Yeah, right, lemme just look..." ZAP. "My corporeal vessel is stronger then one of their so called 'tanks'!" "I am an Ogre Mark V. You are an enemy of the Combine. Prepare to die." VAPORIZE It'd definitely put the ordinary human much more on par with the average celestial on Earth...and make it that much more likely that the humans could keep up, making Earth a veritable "no celestials land". (And a fool's paradise, cause fools go where angels fear to tread?) And what about ethereals? Don't they come about due to man's thoughts and fears? Would new ones form out of the reaction to the Big Battle (tm)? SeanMike - -- SeanMike Whipkey (smw4s@virginia.edu) is: The Grinning Impudite of Andrealphus, Captain of Diabolical Delight South Republican Green Mamba Heavy Gear Pilot/Wetlander UVA Government Major/VP Paintball Club/GWAR Cyberslave/Pep Band Drummer ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 14:42:44 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Dominic, Demon Prince of Cleansing Redneck Gaijin wrote: > About a quarter of Dominic's older demons are servitors of Belial who > weren't in the head-to-head against Gabriel's troopers. Which raises the converse question -- where did Dominic's surviving angels go when their Archangel fell? The new Powers That Be in counter-revolutionary New Heaven aren't exactly fans of the old Dominic, but I'm sure they won't turn away anyone who wants to join. Are there angels milling about without Superiors now? Given the number of deaths among Superiors, I'd think it likely, never mind Dominic's fall. Demons, too, of course. (Hm. Some surviving Ethereals might find this a good occasion to pick up some celestial servitors, cheap. Especially considering that both Blandine and Beleth are among the missing.) Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 13:50:02 -0500 (CDT) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Bright Victory? >I thought a Plaid Victory was where all the ArchAngels and Demon Princes >came together for a Final Battle/Fashion Show, and they all stand around >commenting on each other's hair. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Thanks for re-making my day, Em. Redneck (grr, waited three weeks for a job and get turned down, back to the Want Ads) Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | Do not taunt Happy Fun Belial. http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | * * * c/o White Lightning Productions | "I love the sweet smell of http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | humiliation in the morning!" Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- Kobal reaffirms himself http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 13:50:05 -0500 (CDT) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> B5 Victory > >>Redneck (Superpowerful aliens v. superpowerful aliens, humans in the middle, >>humans win, short version, Oops) > > Well, actually, that short silly snippet could explain a lot... With the >big powerful guys busy wacking on each other, humans tend to get overlooked >and ignored... And we're a rather creative and resourceful bunch. Once we >know about Celestials, don't you think we could foster their taking each >other on-- weakening both sides... and come up with some handy tools to >take the survivors down and maybe even out? Well, the thing is, applying it to Armageddeon, it's like this. Angels walk the earth, destroying cities where demons have worked. Demons walke the earth, destroying cities where angels have worked. A human manages to talk to God and let Him know what's going on. God says, 'Come along, children, you've played here long enough.' Angels and Demons say, 'Aw, DAAAD!' God says, 'Come along, I said.' Angels and demons vanish and neither they nor God is ever heard from again. Redneck (HTH) Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | Do not taunt Happy Fun Belial. http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | * * * c/o White Lightning Productions | "I love the sweet smell of http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | humiliation in the morning!" Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- Kobal reaffirms himself http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 13:49:59 -0500 (CDT) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Dominic, Demon Prince of Cleansing >On Wed, 22 Oct 1997 23:59:53 -0500 (CDT), redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck >Gaijin) wrote: >>I know. However, if I made Celestial death higher, I'm afraid it'd get absurd. > >I don't know. It's pretty darn hard to soul-kill a celestial single handed. >I wonder if IN (dark or light) should have some rule about what happens >when celestials manage to do that. Where do the forces go? Back to the >Symphony, i'm sure; but what would be the effects on nearby celestials? Beyond me. Were you thinking a Highlander-type Quickening scene? (BOOM) }:-{D >Here's another question: Demonic Words used to be assigned on the personal >authority of Lucifer. What happens now? Somehow, I can't see Saminga >handing out Words... > Ooooh, good one. The person holding the Granite Throne will have power to hand out Words on their own. Saminga doesn't care about other people's words, so once he takes over, no more Worded demons until he's deposed, -if- he is. The discussions elsewhere about new Demon Princes (if any) involve Worded demons from before Armageddeon. (That means no Demon Prince of Fear, Em. Sorry.) Redneck Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | Do not taunt Happy Fun Belial. http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | * * * c/o White Lightning Productions | "I love the sweet smell of http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | humiliation in the morning!" Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- Kobal reaffirms himself http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 14:50:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] General Observation > >I'm not sure "Depression" or "Despair" is going to be a demon prince. But > >I think there are better, large ones. I guarentee you "Madness" will come > >back in spades. > > Hm. Insanity, that's a heavy demonic word. Go for Insanity instead of Madness. A nice solid Shedim. > >If you need a whole fleet of new guys who are trying to oust Saminga, I > >suggest "Madness", "Oppression" (humans post-war always seem to end up > >this way), > > Oppression is a good idea. Conquest less so, since in the DV world there's > only a couple of forces around capable of it. Well, maybe not Conquest. That requires an army. In time, Conquest will become a Word, but it requires the humans play Fun With Andre for a while, and we're talking generations. I would think that Pestilance would become a very heavy Word as well, considering the mass amounts of corpses lying around, lack of working medical facilities (makeshift, yeah, but still), and just nastiness. Pollution, from the nuclear blasts and the like, possibly. > > And Fear was part of Beleth's old Word. I suspect DPs will be VERY LEERY of > giving that to anyone for a while. This is true, but I had a different thought on why not to hand out Fear as a Demon Prince. And this is because it can become a sub-Word of Insanity. Only the strongest will come to power, and this will be those with the biggest Words. - - Em, Balseraph of.... sdrawkcaB gniyalp ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 18:51:23 GMT From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: Re: Escaping dissonance (Was: Re: IN> Re: Redeeming Shedim: it c On Thu, 23 Oct 1997 18:27:10 +0000, "A. Nachmias" wrote: > The Mercurian, if I had been the judge of it, would be a >tougher one. Why didn't he plant that landmine? Planting landmines is >basically a violence promoting act, therefore, if he did that for >those causes, he would get a dissonance note when a human'll die. On >the other hand, if he planted that mine to escape a pack of demons, I >wouldn't give him a dissonace note since he didn't explicitly, >wantingly and directly promote violence. I don't know if I'd let the Mercurian off the hook for good intentions--"The road to Hell..." But specific cases aside, the basic point I was trying to make is that some actions are ambiguous, almost quantum mechanical. An action might cause a disonance condition or it might not; you don't know until an arbitrary time after the action. In cases where an angel is suppose to protect someone, suppose a bunch of demons take the person away from the angel without hurting him. So far, the angel hasn't failed his duty. But at some point, if the balance of probabilities shifts so the angel can no longer succeed in protecting his charge, and the angel will gain dissonance. The interesting point is that the angel may not know when this point is. For example, suppose the demons above were disguised as bodyguards--the angel wouldn't have a clue until the situation became irrecoverable and the dissonance hit him. If you make the potential dissonance into the equivalent of Danger Sense, then you've given every celestial nearly the equivalent of Michael Malakim Choir Attunement. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 14:24:01 -0500 (CDT) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> B5 Victory >So what happens to angels and demons who are corporeally killed in DV? I >assume they go to heaven or hell - but that'd be fun trying to get back to >Earth, eh? In the first week after Armageddeon, all surviving Angels who got Corp'd would be gathered up during their Trauma (or, in the case of Malakim, beaten into Celestial death or stun) and hauled to Hell. Any Angel who had a Heart in Heaven (and Laurence, Michael and David destroyed their Servitors' Hearts to avoid this) will now find their heart stored in a very heavily guarded dungeon deep in Hades. Lucifer didn't have time to go for these during his rushed rescue attempts. Angels who hold their own Hearts, or who had none in Heaven at the time of the battle, will appear in Lucifer's Lighthouse or, if they served Gabriel, the Cathederal of Fire. >Anyways, so imagine that the Big Battle (tm) happens just slightly farther >in the future...the angelic and demonic ranks are both decimated in the >first few minutes of the battle, and they're busy regenerating vessels for >all these fallen warriors. >It'd definitely put the ordinary human much more on par with the average >celestial on Earth...and make it that much more likely that the humans >could keep up, making Earth a veritable "no celestials land". Well, let's not forget Celestials can get their hands on that tech... ... and infiltrate the humans, too. Celestials in Corporeal form can't be told from true humans until they disturb the Symphony in some way. }:-{D >And what about ethereals? Don't they come about due to man's thoughts and >fears? Would new ones form out of the reaction to the Big Battle (tm)? > I've avoided Etherials thus far in DV except to say that a lot of the Old Gods are gonna get a revival out of Armageddeon. Anybody with 'The Marches' wanna field this angle? Redneck Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | Do not taunt Happy Fun Belial. http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | * * * c/o White Lightning Productions | "I love the sweet smell of http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | humiliation in the morning!" Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- Kobal reaffirms himself http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 14:37:42 -0500 (CDT) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Dominic, Demon Prince of Cleansing >Redneck Gaijin wrote: > >> About a quarter of Dominic's older demons are servitors of Belial who >> weren't in the head-to-head against Gabriel's troopers. > >Which raises the converse question -- where did Dominic's surviving >angels go when their Archangel fell? A handful of them have Fallen as well, for their own reasons, and most of these (those Dominic didn't kill) have joined him. The vast majority of the ones who survived and stayed Angelic switched over to Eli and Yves. The new Powers That Be in >counter-revolutionary New Heaven aren't exactly fans of the old >Dominic, but I'm sure they won't turn away anyone who wants to join. >Are there angels milling about without Superiors now? Given the >number of deaths among Superiors, I'd think it likely, never mind >Dominic's fall. Demons, too, of course. Lots of them. To take an example from the Night Music NPCs, Doc Jo and Nurse Run are still technically Servitors of Michael, and haven't decided on who to pledge their services to next. And there are lots of Demons looking for bosses, some volunteering, some getting drafted, and some still acting as free agents or even loyal servants to their dead masters. >(Hm. Some surviving Ethereals might find this a good occasion to >pick up some celestial servitors, cheap. Especially considering >that both Blandine and Beleth are among the missing.) > We'll see. Redneck Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | Do not taunt Happy Fun Belial. http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | * * * c/o White Lightning Productions | "I love the sweet smell of http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | humiliation in the morning!" Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- Kobal reaffirms himself http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 19:54:59 GMT From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Dominic, Demon Prince of Cleansing On Thu, 23 Oct 1997 13:49:59 -0500 (CDT), redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) wrote: >>I wonder if IN (dark or light) should have some rule about what happens >>when celestials manage to do that. Where do the forces go? Back to the >>Symphony, i'm sure; but what would be the effects on nearby celestials? > >Beyond me. Were you thinking a Highlander-type Quickening scene? (BOOM) }:-{D I don't know. Figuring wildly, 10 essense removes 3 character points of discord, so we have 10 essence = 3 character points. A 9 Force beginning celestial is worth 90 or 108 points for the Forces and 36 additional character points. So you have an event equivalent to the expenditure of around 450 essence. It seems to me something ought to happen. At least, a lot of essence might be available. You seem to have postulated Saminga and others gaining Forces by slaying, so I was wondering if you had some mechanism in mind. Perhaps something like a roll under Celestial Forces allowing a random Force to be grabbed at the moment of soul-death? >The person holding the Granite Throne will have power to hand out Words on >their own. Ok, but with Saminga's neglect of demonic politics, would a secret Balseraph Council be possible? DPs can grant Forces by themselves, and they might find it advantageous to have some Demon Princelings to help fight Saminga--i.e., to stand between them and Saminga. :) >Saminga doesn't care about other people's words, so once he takes over, no >more Worded demons until he's deposed, -if- he is. Sounds right to me, with the possible addition above. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:20:15 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] The Seed of Fate When this goes up, tell me if my efforts to give Haagenti "smallcaps" worked legibly, 'kay? - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 23:51:45 -0500 (CDT) From: Shadowcat Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Brief Superiors Summary and Notes On Wed, 22 Oct 1997, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > Leslie Fish, "Infamous Anarchist" and filk singer. The first is > "Bring It Down" from the tape: "Firestorm: Songs of the Third World > War" (by Leslie Fish, once published by Firebird; may be NLA), and > the other is Freedom Road, from the tape "It's Sister Jenny's Turn > To Throw The Bomb." Ditto on the publisher. Merci > With suitable Geas offered, I could type in all the words and send > them to you. No need, I know where I can lay my hands on copies of both. As a matter of fact I am hoping to see Juanita Coulson this week end, and she and buck may still have copies for sale. Shadowcat All cats may look upon a king. No comment on the Queen ;-) ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #427 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.