From owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Fri Oct 24 14:09:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA10959 for ; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 14:09:34 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id NAA04569 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 13:54:53 -0500 Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 13:54:53 -0500 Message-Id: <199710241854.NAA04569@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #431 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@LISTS.IO.COM Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Friday, October 24 1997 Volume 01 : Number 431 In this digest: IN> [DARK VICTORY] On the Granting of Words Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Dominic, Demon Prince of Cleansing Re: IN> B5 Victory Re: IN> In_Nomine(live action) Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] On the Granting of Words Re: IN> IN5 [Fluff] Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] On the Granting of Words Re: IN> B5 Victory Re: IN> Act 1 (humour) Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Return of Uriel? IN> fluff IN> IN5 IN> Re: In Nomine List 1 10/24/97 Re: IN> Re: In Nomine List 1 10/24/97 IN> Re: In Nomine List 2 10/24/97 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 03:02:29 -0500 (CDT) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: IN> [DARK VICTORY] On the Granting of Words > >> >>Saminga doesn't care about other people's words, so once he takes over, no >> >>more Worded demons until he's deposed, -if- he is. >> >So how did Dommie get his Word-swap, then? (Asked the Demon Princess >> >of Nitpicking.) > Might I suggest that, being that Saminga, all told, honestly >doesn't CARE...Kronos'll handle it just like he always has? {I know, >Lucifer approved most of them, but it's Kronos who notes them down.} Because Lucifer didn't just approve them, he engraved them into each demon's personal Symphony. Or such is my guess. The actual mechanics of Wording a Celestial need more explanation, really. The following is my guess at how it works. Associating a particular Celestial with a Word in the Symphony (or forcing a Word into a Demon's personal Symphony) takes a certain amount of effort. That effort is beyond a lone PC-level Celestial, otherwise all Angels or Demons would be Worded, with overlaps resolved with such ludicrously bounded as, say, being the Demon of Vehicular Homicides Committed While Driving Japanese Cars. The effort is beyon a lone Celestial, otherwise some ambitious Demon Princes or uncautions Superiors on both sides would grant Words on the spot. The effort requires either an IMMENSELY powerful being like IN Lucifer, or a group of beings like the Seraphim Council working in harmony. And since it's not all that easy, even then, we have the laborious processes of Word approval on both sides. So, in DV, you have the (much smaller) Seraphim Council- LUCIFER: I wonder if we should rename it the Mercurian Council? ELI: Oh, Father, deliver this cup from my lips... (ahem, sorry, sleep beckons) - -you have the Seraphim Council, and you have Saminga on the Granite Throne, and only they can give a Celestial a Word and make it stick. That's my take, anyway... but Beth, John, Derek, this needs help. Your input would be MUCH appreciated, that way I can make DV more true to IN. Redneck Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | Do not taunt Happy Fun Belial. http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | * * * c/o White Lightning Productions | "I love the sweet smell of http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | humiliation in the morning!" Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- Kobal reaffirms himself http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 09:59:20 +0100 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Dominic, Demon Prince of Cleansing (OK, last comment on DV, just cos I think Dom gets such a bad rap) Kingsley Lintz wrote: >Earl queried; >> Which raises the converse question -- where did Dominic's surviving >> angels go when their Archangel fell? The new Powers That Be in > Many of them may well have gone with him... So, what happens when a Superior falls or is redeemed? I guess some minions will have such faith in their maker (canon assumes that superiors create their own servants, right?) that they'll continue to blindly follow into the unknown. But there will be others who won't or can't bear to go against their own natures, even if it leaves them feeling guilty for the dereliction of duty for the rest of their lives. (ie. The servants of Dominic who stop in confusion and cry out 'But.. thats not FAIR!' etc etc). My guess? Their hearts literally break. Its very sad. Presumably they can lobby other superiors to take them on .. if they can find the heart(sic) to do it. jo ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 09:09:34 -0400 From: johnk@ascc01.ascc.lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) Subject: Re: IN> B5 Victory > >So what happens to angels and demons who are corporeally killed in DV? I > >assume they go to heaven or hell - but that'd be fun trying to get back to > >Earth, eh? > > I would assume they wind up staring at their Hearts, whereever those > Hearts may be. Or, for the Heartless, they wind up in Limbo. (_Heaven > & Hell_, p. 79.) On the same note, I'm sure any surviving Preserver Superior wasn't dumb enough to leave all those hearts behind. They'd either grab them all, arrange to have them grabbed or have them destroyed (and then remade later). - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 09:33:01 -0400 From: johnk@ascc01.ascc.lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) Subject: Re: IN> In_Nomine(live action) > >2) Kryotites and there demonic counterpart ( forgive me I don't have my > >book here and I only had 1 cup of coffee this morning and my brian is > >functioning accordingly ) the kriotites are difficult to deal with > >unless they are in a human vessel and there demonic counterpart the > >shidem( yes ) are just down right evil > > Yep. You might want to ban them at first... Especially Kyrios of Jean. > Shedim are not much of a problem (they can only inhabit humans). In many situations, you can just let them grab an 'NPC' human--even in an otherwise empty room! (this assumes that in any reasonably public area there would normally be humans wandering around that are not involved in the plot). If they want to take over a PC-person, then it gets trickier. Just have the two people walk together with the Shedim making impossible-to-ignore suggestions. Put a strict limit on this type of possession, though! (At most an hour, I would say... quite possibly less). Kyriotates are just a problem (surprise, surprise!). Either ban them, limit them to one or two vessels (with heavy restrictions), or use a variation on the Shedim rules above (remember that Kyriotates _can_ possess Celestials!) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 09:42:38 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] On the Granting of Words Redneck Gaijin wrote: > -you have the Seraphim Council, and you have Saminga on the Granite > Throne, and only they can give a Celestial a Word and make it stick. I haven;t bought "Heaven and Hell" yet, so I may have missed something, but is the "Granite Throne" your own invention? Does possession of it give power, like possession of Sauron's One Ring? What I'm saying is, if you don't want new Words passed out in DV, you could make it easy on yourself by ruling that (1) the new Seraphim Council is too weak to do it, (2) despite the fact that it includes Lucifer, because he lost a lot of power when he Redeemed, and (3) even Saminga isn't powerful enough to do it, despite his recent feast of death, or (4) even if he now has the raw power, he lacks the skill, the interest, or both, but in any case, the Granite Throne is just a symbol. Of course, maybe you have plans for that Throne, like Tolkien had for that Ring. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 10:14:14 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> IN5 [Fluff] Casca wrote: > Am I the only one who finds this ending positively terrifying? Now that you point it out, it *is* pretty grim, at least in potential. > No Heaven, no Hell, no afterlife...when you're dead, you're dead. No afterlife? Why not? We have no reason to believe that human souls are kept alive by Heaven and Hell. In fact, since it takes demons effort to strip forces from souls, it looks like human souls are reasonably sturdy. Seems to me, what "IN5" leaves you with is human souls entering an EMPTY Heaven and Hell. Most saved souls ascend to higher heavens anyway. Maybe they go on doing that. Maybe some of them set up shop in the now-empty real-estate. Maybe we get a LOT of ghosts hanging about Earth, since there's no traffic control now. And remember the Marches. Souls can go to the Marches when they die, and I bet the Ethereals are absolutely tickled ultra-pink to see the back of the Celestials. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 10:12:19 -0500 (CDT) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] On the Granting of Words >Redneck Gaijin wrote: > >> -you have the Seraphim Council, and you have Saminga on the Granite >> Throne, and only they can give a Celestial a Word and make it stick. > >I haven;t bought "Heaven and Hell" yet, so I may have missed something, >but is the "Granite Throne" your own invention? Does possession of >it give power, like possession of Sauron's One Ring? It is an invented artifact; the full writeup is now in the INC's Dark Victory section. >What I'm saying is, if you don't want new Words passed out in DV, No, no. New Words can, and will, be handed out. Players in a demonic DV campaign will be motivated by the promise of their own Words if their Superior can wrest the Granite Throne away from Saminga through their assistance. And the Seraphim Council, as reconstituted, -can- grant new Words. >Of course, maybe you have plans for that Throne, like Tolkien had >for that Ring. A couple... but more to the point, GMs may have plans for that Throne. }:-{D Redneck Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | Do not taunt Happy Fun Belial. http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | * * * c/o White Lightning Productions | "I love the sweet smell of http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | humiliation in the morning!" Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- Kobal reaffirms himself http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 10:08:43 -0500 (CDT) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> B5 Victory >> >So what happens to angels and demons who are corporeally killed in DV? I >> >assume they go to heaven or hell - but that'd be fun trying to get back to >> >Earth, eh? >> >> I would assume they wind up staring at their Hearts, whereever those >> Hearts may be. Or, for the Heartless, they wind up in Limbo. (_Heaven >> & Hell_, p. 79.) I need a quick description of Limbo so I can finalize the DV Corp-Death rules. However, I'm going to guess it plays out like this: * Angels with Hearts (except those of Eli's Angels who hid theirs separately) have had their Hearts gathered up by Hell. They lie under guard in the occupied Eternal City (not Hades as I originally planned), where Servitors of Kronos await to hustle Traumatized angels down to Hell (Malakim take some persuading- only 1 in 10 can be stunned into capture without killing them. Malakim never go willingly into captivity.) * Angels without Hearts appear in Limbo, where (until I understand it better) they are -also- gathered up by Hell, though not so efficiently as in Heaven; precise mechanics pending when I learn more about Limbo. (This includes all Servitors of Laurence, Michael and David.) * Demons who served Nybbas or Andrealphus have had their hearts taken to Lucifer's Lighthouse in Heaven. Free Lilim who posessed their own Hearts and defected along with Lilith have also moved them to Lucifer's Lighthouse. * Other Demons who defected shattered the Hearts sitting in their old Masters' vaults and have had new Hearts made by their new Superiors. * Angels who manage to regroup with the Preservers have new Hearts made for them; their old or new Superiors shatter the individual Angels' hearts from a distance by breaking the old link between them. * The very first thing on New Heaven's agenda- even before any rescue mission to Hell- is to get back into the Eternal City long enough to destroy all the captured Hearts therein. > On the same note, I'm sure any surviving Preserver Superior >wasn't dumb enough to leave all those hearts behind. They'd >either grab them all, arrange to have them grabbed or have them >destroyed (and then remade later). > Under the original premise, Lucifer had enough problems getting three Superiors or ex-Superiors out of Hell, along with dozens of captured Angels from Hell and Abaddon, that he could spare no effort for those Hearts. I like this new situation much better, and it fits closer to canon regarding Hearts than the original. Redneck Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | Do not taunt Happy Fun Belial. http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | * * * c/o White Lightning Productions | "I love the sweet smell of http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | humiliation in the morning!" Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- Kobal reaffirms himself http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 17:43:36 +0000 From: "A. Nachmias" Subject: Re: IN> Act 1 (humour) Andre Ribeiro wrote: > > On the summoning of demons (A play in 3 acts) > Cool - nice piece of fiction!! And I'm dying to see the rest... I think it's cool too only I would avoid mention the word "dying" or "death" in an In-Nomine list. Some might know where I'm going to after that. Best Regards, A. Nachmias ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 17:43:36 +0000 From: "A. Nachmias" Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Return of Uriel? Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > (I, myself, have been having mild amused notions of a little > sneak-team composed *mostly* of demons, sneaking into Tartarus > commando style, with one high-ranking angel along to talk to > the Malakim and say, "Yves and Eli say don't kill the demons > that I'm here to rescue you with. Got that? Yeah, they're running > things pretty much now. Promise, no mayhem unless somebody hits > first? Okay, I can let you out now.") Is that a Gabriel's Malakim in your pocket or are you just happy to see me? ;-) Best Regards, A. Nachmias ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 15:01:52 -0200 From: Andre Ribeiro Subject: IN> fluff A. Nachmias wrote: > Andre Ribeiro wrote: > > > > On the summoning of demons (A play in 3 acts) > > Cool - nice piece of fiction!! And I'm dying to see the rest... > > I think it's cool too only I would avoid mention the word "dying" or > "death" in an In-Nomine list. Some might know where I'm going to > after that. You, A. "Let someone else die" Nachmias?? There are some nice'n'hot seats waiting for you just below... ):-) Andre, D.P. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 12:28:35 -0500 (CDT) From: Martin Leslie Leuschen Subject: IN> IN5 [Jo Hart] >I think Redneck had a good point actually. The B5 resolution was one of >the most dramatically disappointing anti-climaxes I have ever seen -- >the build up was great, don't get me wrong but... after all that the two >elder races just get together, say 'Oh gosh, you mortals are right, darn >it', shake claws and sail off into the sunset never to be heard of again? I saw it more along these lines: "We've been fighting a proxy war for Aeons, and our Proxies have caught on, and rufuse to fight. Either we kill them all and start over, or fight and die ourselves." As well as all sorts of other suble points. (The War was *about*how*to*help*the*proxies*. They were originally supposed to co-operate, and were reminded of that by the being that originally helped *them* to that level, and other things...) I really liked it, and found it satisfying. It was set up as Good vs. Evil, but that was a screen for many deeper issues. Certainly a climactic battle ending in Vorlon or Shadow Victory would have been disappointing to me. >Well how.. thrilling. I really liked Bab5 but after that I gave up >watching it in disgust. Your loss. >Anyway, what would be interesting about playing IN if you assumed all the >celestials had just done a runner and were never to be heard of again? Well, that would be The End, if it was a straight IN campaign. Since it isn't really (It's humanocentric), it could as easily be the beginning... ************** [Casca:] >Am I the only one who finds this ending positively terrifying? > >Armageddon comes, with all attendant bells and whistles. Practically >everyone in creation -knows-, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that God is >Real. Scary enough, right? Then, after all the havoc and destruction has >been wrought, God -leaves-. Right when faith is at its highest, when >people need God the most, He abandons them to their own devices. > >No Heaven, no Hell, no afterlife...when you're dead, you're dead. And >whatever happens, it's all because humanity brought it upon itself. (BTW: For Atheists, this *is* how the world works, more or less, and we seem to cope.) In IN context, just cuz God leaves doesn't mean Humanity no longer has Souls. It just means that we've been given control of our own. When you die, there's no Angel shooing you to upper heaven, or Demon slavering over your forces - you choose what to do yourself. Maybe you go Beyond to look for God, maybe you hang around with other Souls, maybe you watch over your children, or haunt a convenience store. It's *your* decision now. >Victory? I dunno. It seems very much like a case of getting -exactly- >what we deserve as punishment for not siding with Good. To reason to the >universe, just randomness....no assurace of a Greater Good in effect, no >Faith to lessen the pain of daily existence. > For one, thing, in the scenario I presented, God sided with Mankind. IN5 doesn't work straight if the Angels are the real (really and effectively benevolent) dope. >Man, if that isn't Hell, I don't know what it. Endless war as the pawns of greater powers, both of whom have our "Best interests at heart" and are "working for the greater good" in their opinions, and will get around to assuring their personal version of a perfect Universe for us pawns as soon as the war is over, which is either a) never or b) after we are all dead? Regards, Martin Leuschen martinl@rice.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 14:01:12 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Re: In Nomine List 1 10/24/97 My mailspool got corrupted. I'm going to try to reply sensibly, but consider this like a digest. *sigh* From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] General Observation >>At 12:44 PM -0500 10/23/97, Redneck Gaijin wrote: >> >>(Yes, her Tower and Blandine's fell down. Do you really want to >>chance that they aren't off together somewhere, having said, >>"A plague on both their houses. Remember that little dreamscape >>back in the Far Marches? The one with the chocolate and sextoys?" >>and reassigning their Words will get one or both of them back >>going *ahem*?) >> >I'd originally planned on B&B to slay each other in the classic 'tragic >lover' schtick, but if you can come up with a cool adventure seed playing >them as having 'gone native' in the Etherial Realm... go for it. }:-{D Who, me? I'm just tossing out ideas and seeing what happens. Though I think I'd leave them "missing, presumed dead" and spread rumors, propaganda and misinformation. From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Dominic, Demon Prince of Cleansing >>At 5:52 PM -0500 10/22/97, Redneck Gaijin wrote: >>> SHEDIM - Shedim of Dominic are assigned to lead souls not to >>>corruption, but to destructions. A Shedim may add the level of a target's >>>strongest single Discord >> >>(Except humans don't have Discord in the soul-staining sense.... Or >>can these Shedim possess *celestial* vessels? Eeek! ) >> >Ouch, good point. Humans don't usually get dissonant or discordant. How about: > >A Shedim may add its Celestial Forces... Willdo. From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Bright Victory? >>(Sorry, Kris -- I'm an equal oppotunity archivist.... I'll put in >>that you wouldn't have it happen in your canon, but if others like >>it, then they get to play it however they want. ) >> >True, although it would be so much more convenient if the ideas were >compatible with mine. }:-{D Well, of course -- but since when has compatibility stopped anyone? 'Tis a living, growing thing... >Redneck (-passion- would work, actually, but it wasn't brought up before) Tsk. Silly of people. The Passion aspect of Fire is what has my Renegade all confusticated about a certain AA. >>(Hmmmm.... *HMMMMMM*.... Though we do want to support our local >>comic shop... You'd have to tempt SJ or one of the other bigger >>Superiors. Though it could tempt... Has a new Athena come out >>recently?) >> >#11 is the latest issue I know of- I have copies on reserve through AM Works. Whaaaa! I don't think we have that one. >Redneck (it's good to own a mail-order comics company- until you gotta go to >the USPS) When they're on strike. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 13:25:37 -0500 (CDT) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> Re: In Nomine List 1 10/24/97 >From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) >Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] General Observation > >>>At 12:44 PM -0500 10/23/97, Redneck Gaijin wrote: >>> >>>(Yes, her Tower and Blandine's fell down. Do you really want to >>>chance that they aren't off together somewhere, having said, >>>"A plague on both their houses. Remember that little dreamscape >>>back in the Far Marches? The one with the chocolate and sextoys?" >>>and reassigning their Words will get one or both of them back >>>going *ahem*?) >>> >>I'd originally planned on B&B to slay each other in the classic 'tragic >>lover' schtick, but if you can come up with a cool adventure seed playing >>them as having 'gone native' in the Etherial Realm... go for it. }:-{D > >Who, me? I'm just tossing out ideas and seeing what happens. Though >I think I'd leave them "missing, presumed dead" and spread rumors, >propaganda and misinformation. Tsk. I was countin' on ya here, Beth... already had someone suggest that B&B defected to the Pagan Gods... >>>(Hmmmm.... *HMMMMMM*.... Though we do want to support our local >>>comic shop... You'd have to tempt SJ or one of the other bigger >>>Superiors. Though it could tempt... Has a new Athena come out >>>recently?) >>> >>#11 is the latest issue I know of- I have copies on reserve through AM Works. > >Whaaaa! I don't think we have that one. > >>Redneck (it's good to own a mail-order comics company- until you gotta go to >>the USPS) > >When they're on strike. > Been a while since the United States Postal Service (the post office) went on strike.... when was the last strike, 1763? }:-{D Redneck Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | Do not taunt Happy Fun Belial. http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | * * * c/o White Lightning Productions | "I love the sweet smell of http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | humiliation in the morning!" Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- Kobal reaffirms himself http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 14:44:57 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Re: In Nomine List 2 10/24/97 Same as the other one -- this is like a digest. From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Return of Uriel? >>At 1:15 PM -0500 10/23/97, Redneck Gaijin wrote: > >>Litheroy was the AA of Revelations. He was concerned with Truth >>and discovery. His "Associated" listing is Yves, Dominic, Michael, >>and Laurence, so he's got War-party ties, but those are mostly >>because one is Destiny, two others are Seraphim (like himself) >>and the third is an honor-loon. > >>He's hostile to Jean (hiding tech!) and Janus (who never goes near >>him). >> >I see. Neither hawk nor dove, just incredibly obsessed. > >Oogh, not an easy one at all... Nope. >>Alaemon, on the other hand, probably skipped the battle as well and >>is deep in hiding somewhere -- hm. Ah, yes, Alaemon and Litheroy both >>vanished deep into Alaemon's Principality and have not emerged as of >>yet. And since Alaemon was a minor Prince anyway, nobody's gone looking. >> >>How's that? >> >Nice, but not sufficient- it would leave Litheroy 'unaccounted for.' Hm. True. Sort of... >A better version is that Litheroy charged Hell to assault Alaemon, and fell >into a carefully crafted trap. This leaves Alaemon with Litheroy as his >captive- a bound, Force-stripped Seraph gagged so he can't speak... and >bombarded with a million tape recorded questions. > >Twelve tapes at once. > >Question after question after question. > >Over and over and over, and Litheroy cannot answer. > >How's -that?- Oh, I don't know -- it's not dissonant to refuse to answer a foe. Leaving him in front of all the political ads in history, now *that* would be cruel. >> Hey, I'm living up here now, I'm allowed to make comments >>from the peanut gallery. >> >My heartfelt condolences. }:-{D Yeah, I know, it *snows* up here, and it's *cold*!! >>BTW, Malphas ought to get around to smiting this fellow eventually -- >>Factions is supposed to *break* things down (as ordered), not go around >>on world-conquest kicks... >> >He might... he might not. He -should,- since this is a very powerful >servitor working for his own ends rather than Malphas'... but he might want >to see if Johnston's war brings about more, or fewer, Factions. > >After all, this is New England. }:-{D Silly Malphas. From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: Re: Escaping dissonance (Was: Re: IN> Re: Redeeming Shedim: it c > >On Fri, 24 Oct 1997 01:03:46 +0100, Sam Kington >wrote: > >>Walt Mazur wrote: >>[snip] >>> the basic point >>> I was trying to make is that some actions are ambiguous, almost quantum >>> mechanical. An action might cause a disonance condition or it might not; >>> you don't know until an arbitrary time after the action. >> >>Fair enough: the Jaws theme becomes uncertain, wavers, (possibly) turns >>serial, atonal, or some weird variant. > >I don't see anything in IN that says you get warned when you're in a >situation where you *might* become dissonant. You either take dissonance or >not. Otherwise, every Mercurian attacking what he thought was a demon would >get warned away if he was wrong. That would be an instant demon detector, >and detecting demons is not supposed to be that easy. No, what happens is that the Mercurian takes a swing at someone, and there's this little of impending dissonance in the back of his head. When he connects, it either turns into dissonance (hit a human!) or doesn't (hit a celestial!). It is against his nature to be violent, therefore, violence activates the warning bells. At least, that's how *I* would play, and I suspect it's in the back of many other Superiors' heads... From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> B5 Victory >[AA Beth] >> I would assume they wind up staring at their Hearts, whereever those >> Hearts may be. Or, for the Heartless, they wind up in Limbo. >> (_Heaven & Hell_, p. 79.) > >Hmmm - beg to differ, Beth. Destruction of the Vessel, p111: > >"When a spirit's corporeal vessel is destroyed, it returns to the >ethereal realm, at whatever place it considers home or otherwise >safe." > >Last I knew, spirits lack Hearts... AA Beth, Archangel of Line Editing: Those are ethereal spirits. When speaking of Celestials, they wind up staring at their Hearts, or (for the Heartless), in Limbo. And on rare occasions, humans and ethereals have also gotten there. O;p From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Dominic, Demon Prince of Cleansing >>>Saminga doesn't care about other people's words, so once he takes over, no >>>more Worded demons until he's deposed, -if- he is. >> >>So how did Dommie get his Word-swap, then? (Asked the Demon Princess >>of Nitpicking.) >> >Oooh, good nit, too. Thanks. It's a Rite. >Um, okay, how's this? Saminga heard about this new demon, saw he was >promoting Saminga's Word, and approved of his choice of Word, making it >official. > >(Dominic terrorizing a wrecked city, and Saminga comes along.) > >SAMINGA: Watcha doin'? > >DOMINIC: KILL! KILL THEM ALL! SCOURGE THE WICKED WITH FIRE AND BRIMSTONE, >BURN, BURN, BURN WITH GOD'S WRATH!! > >SAMINGA: Cool. What's your name? > >DOMINIC: Know you that I am Dominic, Archangel of Cleansing, the puissant >and terrible Sword of God! > >SAMINGA: So you are. Keep up the good work. Though Seed of Fate has him claiming that Word early on... Hm. With Lucifer off the Throne, perhaps any Superior could have mutated his Word with enough energy/strength of will/determination during that brief hiatus. From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: Re: Escaping dissonance >On Thu, 23 Oct 1997 20:24:47 -0400, Elizabeth McCoy > wrote: > >>>Even if he sets it for a demon? >> >>Hm. If it blows up a human, then yes. Shouldn'ta been careless. If >>he'd swung a punch at someone he thought was a demon, and discovered >>he'd just hit a Shedite's ride, he'd get the dissonance. >> >>Of course, setting it would be skirting the edge of his nature unless >>he'd been *utterly* sure the one to step on it would be a demon, and >>maybe even dangerous even then. They're pacifists, acter all. > >Right, but that's something so innate, the GM shouldn't have to point it >out to the player. You may overestimate some players' ability to remember each and every thing, when caught up in the heat of the moment. A simple, "That's skirting dissonance, you know," can work wonders. >>>Of course, these examples are off the cuff and unlikely to really come up >>>in a campaign, but the position I'm advocating is that a celestial can do >>>something seemingly innocent, or even good, and later reap dissonance from >>>it. He doesn't have Danger Sense--or am I wrong and he does? >> >>If he does something that is obviously skirting the boundaries of his >>nature (a Cherub dragging his attuned around into car-crashes, a >>Mercurian setting a deathtrap, a Kyrio using his hosts to fight with, >>etc.), then he'll feel the "I maybe shouldn't be doing this" quiver. > >But aren't these obvious enough that the GM shouldn't need to warn the >player about it. Shouldn't, yes -- but for a young player, or one new to In Nomine, or otherwise needing the reminder... Even I have to rememeber the dissonance conditions for Freedom sometimes, and I *breathe* IN! >After all, Kyrios can go into combat as long as they're >positive they can Heal their hosts if needed. And if the player *knows* that his character will be hearing the little warning bells, the GM doesn't have to tell him. If the player is new, the GM might want to say, "If any of them get hurt, you'll have to fix them before you leave them." >>If he does something that accidentally, in a non-forseen series of >>events, violates his nature (and the GM rules that it's direct enough >>cause and event), he suddenly gets hit with dissonance, I think. (So >>if a Servitor of Judgment is convinced that someone is guilty and >>hands him over to the cops -- he'll reap dissonance right there if >>the guy was framed.) > >Or maybe when the situation become irrecoverable. While he can still get >the person back from the cops or hire a lawyer to prove him innocent, >should he get dissonance? I tend to think not, until the recovery gets to >the point of being unlikely. I'd probably sound the warning bells the instant that "unjust punishment" is about to happen. Not, mind you, about *what* except "Your Superior's dissonance conditions are about to be violated by something you did." But being fingerprinted, etc., might well count as "unjust punishement" if the person was totally innocent. >>It's very much a GM call in the gray areas. But they don't get danger >>sense except for knowing that they're doing something that could very >>well violate their natures. It's the knowing that they can't ignore. > >Which, mostly, the players should know. The GM should only need to give >them a clue when they're missing the significance of what they're doing and >it's definitely against their nature, not just possibly against their >nature. I think that if the players are doing something and it's not clear they know it's skirting the edge for their character, then the GM should give them that little "warning bells" mention. If you have experienced IN players, then the GM doesn't have to do this -- the players do it *for* their characters. But if it's something the characters should know, and the players seem blithely unaware of, I, as a GM, would give them that warning. And if they continued, I'd let them damn themselves... >From: "Nathaniel Eliot" >To: in_nomine-l@LISTS.IO.COM >Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 21:57:59 +0000 >Subject: Re: IN> B5 Victory >In-reply-to: <199710231924.OAA19919@legend.sat.txdirect.net> >X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) >Sender: owner-in_nomine-l@LISTS.IO.COM >Precedence: bulk >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@LISTS.IO.COM > >> Any Angel who had a Heart in Heaven (and Laurence, Michael and David >> destroyed their Servitors' Hearts to avoid this) will now find their >> heart stored in a very heavily guarded dungeon deep in Hades. >> Lucifer didn't have time to go for these during his rushed rescue >> attempts. Angels who hold their own Hearts, or who had none in >> Heaven at the time of the battle, will appear in Lucifer's >> Lighthouse or, if they served Gabriel, the Cathederal of Fire. > >Canon for somebody without a heart is a Trauma measured in weeks, and >the chance of loosing a Force. Those are Ethereal Spirits, not Celestials. Canon. (Well, Trauma is still measured in weeks for the celestials, too, but they're in Limbo. p. 79 of Heaven & Hell.) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Places - the Northeast States of America > >>>>>ROBERT JOHNSTON >> >>alias ROSHTANDARIEL, Balseraph Baron of Factions, Demon of Republican >>Democracy<<< >> >>At his power level, Roshtandariel would more likely be a Duke, rather than >>a mere Baron. > >True. Beth, could you be so kind as to pick that nit when you post? }:-{D Yaup. From: nightgaunt@earthlink.net (Alexander Shearer) Subject: IN> Heaven and Hell (brief review) > Ah, to think I almost didn't bother walking into Games of Berkeley >today. > > I've just finished a preliminary read-through of Heaven and Hell. >Fun stuff once again, though I'd still like to see a bit more editorial >coherence in the In Nomine books. That one's not my fault. You can start blaming me when the APG comes out. > Dominic comes off as a pathetic, haunted paranoid (and I should note >that I don't like Perez's drawings of him - "My God - it's full of stars!"). *sigh* Me either. I think SMIF's rendition was much better. *sigh* > For the moment, my favorite section is the Celestial Realms one. I'm >not sure how much that's due to the lack of sample characters and adventure >seeds, though (not that anything without them is automatically good, but it >makes it better than similar writing elsewhere). Any thoughts out there on >pros or cons of sample characters and the like? Note that Staciel has only +3 Charisma (the max), and that her name is probably assumed, since Lilith doesn't give her daughters "of God" names... ("El"/"Eli"/"-iel"/"-iah") - --Elizabeth ("Oath of God" -- presumably "zabeth" is the "Oath" part?) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> B5 Victory >>You didn't make it clear whether >>Yve's Hearts were taken (you said something about the Library >>being unburnable and sealed - could it even be breached, or not? > >The -demons- sealed it up after looting it of Hearts (and losing a number of >demons in its depths). And the bookshelves of Sapent Pearwood grin evilly. From: Kim Foster Subject: IN> Numinous Corpus Question >Can a character willingly use a NC at a lower level than what they know it? >I am mainly asking due to those powers that either trade accuaracy for power >as the level increases or hamper to character in some way at higher levels. Yes. (Isn't that in the FAQ?) If they want to switch in the middle of combat or something, it takes a round to do. (During which, the sadistic GM will say it's no good at all.) From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> IN5 [Fluff] >On Thu, 23 Oct 1997, Martin Leslie Leuschen wrote: > >[snip very good summary of B5 in IN terms] [...] >Victory? I dunno. It seems very much like a case of getting -exactly- >what we deserve as punishment for not siding with Good. To reason to the >universe, just randomness....no assurace of a Greater Good in effect, no >Faith to lessen the pain of daily existence. > >Man, if that isn't Hell, I don't know what it. I dunno -- it's what I grew up with. Faith in oneself to make the world go Right, and a certain amount of responsibility to at least one's little corner of the universe... Admittedly, I also get reincarnation and some other fun stuff, so I'm not without a safetynet of faith... From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> Seraphim Check Digits >>Elizabeth, I don't think that a CD of 4 would be sufficient. They said >>that they fell in battle. That's true. Dominic wouldn't be able to >>pick up anything else because it wasn't part of the question. > > > >> Dominic may have gotten a vision of >>Michael failing on the field, but not the body count he achieved prior >>to losing, since that was not part of thestatement the demons gave, if I >>understand correctly. >> >>Oops da Ogre, if Redneck cares to correct me, fine, but otherwise I >> don't think that that interpretation of seraphim is correct > >No, by my reread just now, I gotta agree. Seraphim check digits only refer >to the truth, or Truth, of the particular statement, no farther. > >To render down the situation: > >"Yeah, and then our guys killed Michael and Laurence- they were together at >the end, you know..." > >Check digit of Result > > 1 They think Michael and Laurence fell in battle. > 2 They think Michael and Laurence fell in battle. > 3 They think Michael and Laurence fell in battle, and are > taunting me with the knowledge. > 4 They think Michael and Laurence fell in battle, and are > taunting me with the knowledge. And "then our guys" gets "They think demons killed them. Lots and lots of demons." Or perhaps, "They think demons killed them, but they're leaving something out here." > 5 They know Michael and Laurence fell in battle, and are > taunting me with the knowledge. And "then our guys" gets "They know demons killed them. Lots and lots of demons." > 6 Michael and Laurence fell in battle. These demons know this > and are taunting me with the knowledge. And "then our guys" gets "Michael and Laurence fell under countless (well, 1,432.5, to be precise) Calabim and Djinn, battling madly and leaving a pile of celestial bodies around them." Now, if the demons were *VERY CAREFUL* and said: "Michael and Laurence are dead, together till the last. Pity you won't have that respite." Then all the Seraphim are out of luck. > Nowhere in here does it mention the body count, because the demons >don't mention it. A straight Seraphic Resonance cannot work against unspoken >lies or lies of omission. At levels 4-6, it starts working on "unspoken" and "omission," I do believe. You can still get around them, but you have to start being very very careful. Some more explicit guidelines for the Seraphic resonance will come into print Real Soon Now, I believe. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #431 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.