From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Nov 25 08:05:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA26975 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 08:05:33 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id HAA18259 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 07:57:06 -0600 Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 07:57:06 -0600 Message-Id: <199711251357.HAA18259@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #486 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, November 25 1997 Volume 01 : Number 486 In this digest: RE: IN> Things that make you glad to be alive Re: IN> Strange Question Re: IN> Strange Question Re: IN> Re: Re: IN> Re: Re: IN> The Black Mother (plot seed) Re: IN> Angels and Souls (was Angelaki) Re: IN> Strange Question Re: IN> An Awful Noise in the Name of the Lord Re: IN> Strange Question/Hell Mechanics IN> Lilith's Origin Re: IN> Lilith's Origin Re: IN> Strange Question Re: IN> Strange Question/Hell Mechanics Re: IN> Angels and Souls (was Angelaki) IN> In Nomine world variant Re: IN> Angels and Souls (was Angelaki) Re: IN> The honorable Rulius Advocatus, Esq. Re: IN> Lilith's Origin Re: IN> Strange Question Re: IN> Strange Question Re: IN> Angels and Souls (was Angelaki) Re: IN> Strange Question Re: IN> Strange Question Re: IN> An Awful Noise in the Name of the Lord Re: IN> Strange Question Re: IN> Strange Question ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 15:05:34 EST From: "Perry M. Lloyd" Subject: RE: IN> Things that make you glad to be alive > "Well, that's a bummer. Pass me a beer, would ya, Bill." > "There ya go. You know what, Bob. That's just the kind of thing than > makes you glad to be alive." > "Yup. That and fried chicken." > And mud baths...):-9 > > Andre, D.P. And friend ice cream... :9 - -Perry Perry M. Lloyd "I saw a monster come with speed, Its face of grimmest green. On human beings it used to feed, Most dreadful to be seen. -Lewis Carroll (from "Horrors"-1850) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 15:13:43 EST From: "Perry M. Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Strange Question [Pear] >I do like the possibilty that angels are shaped for maintain the symphony > until they are made "self-aware" which immediately requires a seperation > from the whole of existance. Who said that, Emily Dresner? There's a > certain sadness when you realize that in order to accomplish your goals you > must be seperated from others. It's the connection versus autonomy > paradox: in order to really get anything done, you must autonomy, but in > order to know _what_ to do, you must have connection to others. [Em] >Not I. I said no such thing. I don't even think I thought it. :) Huh, wonder who it was... :? >I do have some thoughts on the Hegemony of Angelic Existance, though. >Even as an Angel as an individual entity you aren't really seperated from >all the other Angels at all. You're connected through the Symphony. All >Angels all share the same 'song', even if it happens to be Mozart's >Requiem. >The sad part is when they Fall. Then they really become disconnected. > >- Em The Fall, the ultimate disconnection. Yiurk, it never really hit me with such force till now just how painful that must be. Makes the Djinn make sense, in a way that's just too clear. So much anger, so much bitterness, so much hate. Well, that's demons for ya. - -Perry Perry M. Lloyd "I saw a monster come with speed, Its face of grimmest green. On human beings it used to feed, Most dreadful to be seen. -Lewis Carroll (from "Horrors"-1850) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 15:48:25 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Strange Question > >I do have some thoughts on the Hegemony of Angelic Existance, though. > >Even as an Angel as an individual entity you aren't really seperated from > >all the other Angels at all. You're connected through the Symphony. All > >Angels all share the same 'song', even if it happens to be Mozart's > >Requiem. > >The sad part is when they Fall. Then they really become disconnected. > > > >- Em > > The Fall, the ultimate disconnection. Yiurk, it never really hit me with > such force till now just how painful that must be. Makes the Djinn make > sense, in a way that's just too clear. So much anger, so much bitterness, > so much hate. Well, that's demons for ya. Now you begin to understand why death is preferable to Falling for many of the Heavenly Host. It All Becomes Clear. But what about those who were born down there, or the Lilim, who can sort of kind of hear the Symphony on a clear day? They have never been connected. They have no idea what it means to become part of the one single being which is the Heavenly Host. They simply do not know. I can imagine resistance, and a certain amount of trepidation at wanting to "Redeem". Redeem from what? They never did anything wrong, they were born that way. It's like being told to Redeem from being Chinese. And when they DO Redeem and change, they might become something akin to Paranoia Drones, and God is the Master Computer. No free thought, no working for themselves, no privacy, no secrets, everyone is connected to the Symphony. "The Mercurian in Sector 5 is bouncing. Something must be wrong with her hamstrings, it might be Discord. She should report to the Termination Chamber". Redemption (as Dai put it, a while ago) is a lie told by the Other Side to make the demons think there is something better up there then what they have at home, to make them weak. As a hell-born demon, I'd probably shoot myself before too much of this. That sword cuts both ways, ya know? - - Em, who has been spending too much time talking to Lilim ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 13:57:56 From: Jeff Miller Subject: Re: IN> Re: At 05:07 PM 11/21/97 -0500, you wrote: >At 11:31 AM -0500 11/21/97, Jeff Miller wrote: >>At 11:35 AM 11/21/97 -0500, you wrote: >>>Why is Gaberial described as female? [...] >>I got the impression from the books that after the Muslim gig and the >>fallout from it, Gaby decided to be female. >> >>I could draw further conclusions but Beth or Emily might find me and hurt me. >> > >Do not taunt the Demon Princess of PMS, puny man. Not unless you >want some extreme vessel adaptations. (Celestial Song of Form, anyone?) > Who, Me? Jeff Miller Program Director/Webmaster for Agamemcon II Burbank Airport Hilton -- May 22-24, 1998 Contact Info: 24161-H Hollyoak (714)643-8352 Laguna Hills, CA 92656 www.primenet.com/~shadocat/agamemcon.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 13:59:58 From: Jeff Miller Subject: Re: IN> Re: At 06:17 PM 11/23/97 -0500, you wrote: > >> At 11:31 AM -0500 11/21/97, Jeff Miller wrote: >> >At 11:35 AM 11/21/97 -0500, you wrote: >> >>Why is Gaberial described as female? [...] >> >I got the impression from the books that after the Muslim gig and the >> >fallout from it, Gaby decided to be female. >> > >> >I could draw further conclusions but Beth or Emily might find me and hurt me. >> > >> >> Do not taunt the Demon Princess of PMS, puny man. Not unless you >> want some extreme vessel adaptations. (Celestial Song of Form, anyone?) >> > >And I might find you and hurt you just out of spite. :) > Promises, promises. Jeff Miller Program Director/Webmaster for Agamemcon II Burbank Airport Hilton -- May 22-24, 1998 Contact Info: 24161-H Hollyoak (714)643-8352 Laguna Hills, CA 92656 www.primenet.com/~shadocat/agamemcon.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 18:54:21 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> The Black Mother (plot seed) > (NB. This is irrelevant but I found a fun reference at > http://cyberland. recife.softex.br/~mephisto/Demons.htm -- my > personal fave is Azazel who introduced cosmetics, apparently ;0 ) Interesting stuff - I've bookmarked it. One funny note - Saminga, according to Solomon, is a Liberal Arts teacher... I liked the plot seed, as well, but don't have any really good comments on it. Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com "Have you ever noticed...whenever God needed a killing...he sent an angel. Have you ever wondered what a creature like that must be like? Your whole existence praising your God but always with one wing dipped in blood. Would you ever really want to see an angel?" - The Prophecy ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 18:54:20 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> Angels and Souls (was Angelaki) > > I'm assuming you're Balseraph, but who is your Superior? I can't > > quite see Kobal as being into backwards IN... > > http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/articles/INChar/Demons/Balseraph.Em > .html > > I have Rites and everything. :) > > I work for Azzie. But I hang with Kobal's people sometimes, just > because it's cool. Hehe - now I remember that. Though it strikes me that Malphas is perhaps a better choice... Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com "Have you ever noticed...whenever God needed a killing...he sent an angel. Have you ever wondered what a creature like that must be like? Your whole existence praising your God but always with one wing dipped in blood. Would you ever really want to see an angel?" - The Prophecy ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 18:54:21 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> Strange Question > > In other words, there *is* a precedence for Lucifer being able > > to change a human into a demon... or am I missing something? > > The thing you are missing is that no one specifically ever > said that Lilith was _human_. Wife != Human. That's a pretty heavy statement, John...usually I go for the safer Mother-in-Law != Human. Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com "Have you ever noticed...whenever God needed a killing...he sent an angel. Have you ever wondered what a creature like that must be like? Your whole existence praising your God but always with one wing dipped in blood. Would you ever really want to see an angel?" - The Prophecy ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 18:54:21 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> An Awful Noise in the Name of the Lord > Don't get me wrong, this isn't exactly something that an angel > or demon is going to miss hearing, I'm just pointing out that > you all are treating armageddon as one big BOOM with the > appropriate noise being heard 90 galaxies away for 137 million > years. In reality, those nukes were probably the worst of it > and they had supporting minor calamities that would have been > overshadowed. Well, I was treating it all as one BOOM because I was acting as if it all happened in one combat. Remember that each disturbance adds to the one before it if it happens close enough. I tend to think of old disturbance as falling off at a rate inversely proportional to it's size, so any nuke size combat is going to add for a while. Granted, not all of those deaths were in the same place, or resulted from the actions of the same Celestial, but still. Granted, it ain't canon. But then neither is Dark Victory, so that's no problem... Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com "Have you ever noticed...whenever God needed a killing...he sent an angel. Have you ever wondered what a creature like that must be like? Your whole existence praising your God but always with one wing dipped in blood. Would you ever really want to see an angel?" - The Prophecy ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 19:08:56 -0500 (EST) From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> Strange Question/Hell Mechanics On Mon, 24 Nov 1997, Emily Dresner wrote: > I might be kidding! I might not! It's a Wheel of Em! Spin spin spin. Wheel of Em, spin spin spin. Tell us what punishment we will win. ;) > are. I could write all these up, if you would like. Yes! Yes! Dear God, yes! I have a difficult time imagining how Hell should work, since my games are angel-oriented. The more help I get in developing the Infernal, the better. - -- Casca, Seraph of Archives (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 19:33:33 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Lilith's Origin >>>Actually, as I understood it, Lilith is a totally unique creature.<<< She's unique *now*, but she started out as a mortal woman. God may or may not have created her in totality for the purpose of the Eden experiment (i.e. she didn't have parents and wasn't "born" like other humans), but she started out as a human female. >>>She's not really Celestial, and she's not the same as modern humans. She represents what humanity was before eating of the fruit of good and evil. She's immortal, intelligent, capable of Free Will, and empowered by Lucifer- but not truly Demonic in nature.<<< For all practical purposes, she is celestial and a Demon Princess now...but her unique origins do set her apart from other Princes. >>>Her children, OTOH, are definitely demons.<<< Yep. But even they are a little bit different from other demons, since they have no angelic counterpart, and are the only demons that _only_ Lilith can make. (Well, Lucifer probably could if he really wanted to, but that would infringe on Lilith's territory, and I don't think he creates any demons himself.) Whether Lilith could create other kinds of demons is an interesting question....I think she probably could if she wanted to, but she doesn't. But it is certain that no other Prince can create Lilim. Lilith is such an interesting character, it's not surprising that there are many different interpretations of her origin and nature. I like the fact that she was originally a mortal, though -- take that away, and she's just another Demon Princess with a quirky attitude. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 18:45:14 -0600 (CST) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> Lilith's Origin >>>>Actually, as I understood it, Lilith is a totally unique creature.<<< > >She's unique *now*, but she started out as a mortal woman. God may or may >not have created her in totality for the purpose of the Eden experiment >(i.e. she didn't have parents and wasn't "born" like other humans), but she >started out as a human female. Perhaps, except that she did not partake of the forbidden fruit, and thus was not condemned to die like all of Adam's and Eve's descendants. >Lilith is such an interesting character, it's not surprising that there are >many different interpretations of her origin and nature. I like the fact >that she was originally a mortal, though -- take that away, and she's just >another Demon Princess with a quirky attitude. It's even more interesting that she was not only human, but a true Innocent before Lucifer tempted her into following him. Redneck Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | "Hmmm... Sugar Plum Fairies." http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | --- Haagenti at the ballet c/o White Lightning Productions | * * * * * * http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | "MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!" Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- Laurence and Haagenti http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 19:56:50 EST From: "Perry M. Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Strange Question > The Fall, the ultimate disconnection. Yiurk, it never really hit me with > such force till now just how painful that must be. Makes the Djinn make > sense, in a way that's just too clear. So much anger, so much bitterness, > so much hate. Well, that's demons for ya. >Now you begin to understand why death is preferable to Falling for many of >the Heavenly Host. It All Becomes Clear. >But what about those who were born down there, or the Lilim, who can sort >of kind of hear the Symphony on a clear day? They have never been >connected. They have no idea what it means to become part of the one >single being which is the Heavenly Host. They simply do not know. > >I can imagine resistance, and a certain amount of trepidation at wanting >to "Redeem". Redeem from what? They never did anything wrong, they were >born that way. It's like being told to Redeem from being Chinese. And >when they DO Redeem and change, they might become something akin to >Paranoia Drones, and God is the Master Computer. No free thought, no >working for themselves, no privacy, no secrets, everyone is connected to >the Symphony. "The Mercurian in Sector 5 is bouncing. Something must be >wrong with her hamstrings, it might be Discord. She should report to the >Termination Chamber". > >Redemption (as Dai put it, a while ago) is a lie told by the Other Side to >make the demons think there is something better up there then what they >have at home, to make them weak. As a hell-born demon, I'd probably shoot >myself before too much of this. > >That sword cuts both ways, ya know? The sword of lies or truth? Could be that the Hell-born demons are told that redemption is a lie (told to them by the Balseraphs, no doubt, ain't that oxymoronic) and the Angels really do have something to fear, especially since existance after the fall is "the unknown" and we all tend to fear _that_. So, the demons are kept confused and the angels are kept in line... How handy. O:::) - -Perry Perry M. Lloyd "I saw a monster come with speed, Its face of grimmest green. On human beings it used to feed, Most dreadful to be seen. -Lewis Carroll (from "Horrors"-1850) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 20:01:49 EST From: "Perry M. Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Strange Question/Hell Mechanics [Em] > I might be kidding! I might not! It's a Wheel of Em! Spin spin spin. [Casca] >Wheel of Em, spin spin spin. Tell us what punishment we will win. ;) The place cracks me up. We have the best people here. :) [Em] > are. I could write all these up, if you would like. [Casca] >Yes! Yes! Dear God, yes! > >I have a difficult time imagining how Hell should work, since my games >are angel-oriented. The more help I get in developing the Infernal, the >better. I wouldn't mind them either. I have problems with ALL politics. O:::) - -Perry Perry M. Lloyd "I saw a monster come with speed, Its face of grimmest green. On human beings it used to feed, Most dreadful to be seen. -Lewis Carroll (from "Horrors"-1850) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 20:12:34 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Angels and Souls (was Angelaki) > > > I'm assuming you're Balseraph, but who is your Superior? I can't > > > quite see Kobal as being into backwards IN... > > > > http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/articles/INChar/Demons/Balseraph.Em > > .html > > > > I have Rites and everything. :) > > > > I work for Azzie. But I hang with Kobal's people sometimes, just > > because it's cool. > > Hehe - now I remember that. Though it strikes me that Malphas is > perhaps a better choice... > So did I originally, until I realized I wasn't friendly enough to work for Malphas. Nope, it's definitely the Game. I press too many buttons to be otherwise. :) Who said all of Azzie's people were cops? :) - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 19:38:17 -0600 (CST) From: Thany Subject: IN> In Nomine world variant (In any replies, include my personal address (sherlock@ksu.edu) in the header, as I am no longer subscribed to in_nomine-l. Thankee.) The Norweigan Blue Variant - --- --------- ---- ------- (or, I Bet Mickey Didn't Have This Problem With The Hat...) --- - --- ------ ---- - ---- ---- ------- ---- --- --- God isn't dead. He's resting. No, really. When God incarnated Himself in the vessel of Jesus of Nazareth, He neglected to remember that even he had to play by the rules, and, sure enough, the crucifixion of said messiah sent the Almighty right back to Heaven and into a heavy Trauma that He has yet to recover from ( phew, that was a mouthful). After a brief and unsuccessful attempt of the major Archangels to keep this from the general Divinities, it was decided that one of them should, temporarily, take the helm until God awakens. Eli was eventually chosen mostly due to his lack of ambition. Taking control was a little rocky at first. Some well-meant mistakes include the Spanish Inquisition and the brutally enforced converting of the Americas, and the number of angels was increased to compensate. Likewise, Hell sent more demons just to even the score. By present day, Eli has more or less gotten the hang of things now. Very few angels remain that know of the switch, except the very old and Eli's most favored, and the Infernal don't seem to suspect anything yet and they MUST NOT (or MUST, depending on your alignment ;). The (Arch)angels have been affected this way: (note: after writing this far, I find out that I have lost my In Nomine book, so this list will be restricted to those Archangels that I can remember. Feel free to bridge the gaps) Blandine: shortly after the election, (s)he petitioned to Eli that (s)he be allowed to meet with Beleth, her former lover, at the thin neutral border between their realms and was given permission. What happened at the meeting is unknown to anyone but the sole attendees, but upon their return, they both acted less like two warring tribes and just went about their own business. Some (most of them Angels of Flowers) see this as proof that the Fallen can be redeemed; some (most of them Angels of Justice) see this as proof that Blandine is a traitor and should not be trusted. Dominic: losing the election to play God humbled him considerably. He still keeps his eye on every nook and cranny of Heaven, Earth and, where possible, the Marches, but the "guilty until proved more guilty" manner disappeared, except in the case of Infernals and "the Tripped". Eli: apart from becoming God's temporary replacement and being less available to his followers, none, really. S'all good. :) Flowers (her name escapes me): surprisingly, she disapproves of Eli's appointment. She believes that all of this will end in blood and thinks that it would be better if the Archangels learned to fend for themselves as opposed to appointing a false God and continuing with the status quo. However, she does not take her beliefs any farther than voicing them. Yves: what could change? He still knew this was going to happen, still knows exactly whats going on, and still (infuriatingly) keeps silent about it all. The Princes don't know of the switch yet and don't smell anything particularly suspicious. Their mannerisms haven't changed any (except Beleth's; see above). I think I covered just about everything here (without my book, that is). Tear it apart (just remember that I'm not subscribed)! - -- "Go crazy or go home, folks, 'cause this is the end." - Fred Garbo ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 22:56:09 EST From: "Perry M. Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Angels and Souls (was Angelaki) >On Nov 22, 1:50am, Jesse Rooeny wrote: >> Subject: Re: IN> Angels and Souls (was Angelaki) >> >> In the standard IN worldview, celestials are way better than us, no >> >> doubt. They have souls, super-powers, they're pretty much immortal. >> >> There is nothing about us that makes us special in any way. So why >> >> didn't God stop with them? >> (1) Mortal's souls -are- immortal. We are going to soar in Heaven or >burn >> in Hell forever. It is alot easier to soul kill an angel than it is to >> soul kill a mortal and only one charceter in the stanard In Nomine >continum >> does that, the Prince of Death. John Karakash said > Immortal... usually. The souls of mortals can be destroyed >permanently in the same way that a celestial's soul can be >destroyed. Blast someone's Forces out of existence (or strip them >down for other uses) and that person is GONE. > Some souls also, for unknown reasons, simply disband upon >death and their Forces go back to the Symphony. And some souls simply snap back to earth, born again. Reincarnation anyone? This is something that has caught _my_ interest. The possibility that Fate and Destiny of particular souls might be so strong as to pull them back to the mortal coil for another ride. It has other implications as well... The possibility of past lives as being an adventure seed has entered my mind. Too bad I'm supposed to be writing a paper tonight. :) - -Perry Perry M. Lloyd "I saw a monster come with speed, Its face of grimmest green. On human beings it used to feed, Most dreadful to be seen. -Lewis Carroll (from "Horrors"-1850) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 23:50:55 -0500 From: Frank Lazar Subject: Re: IN> The honorable Rulius Advocatus, Esq. >>>>And if the Gaming Police were rounding up offenders, they would lose me >as help on the web page since I happily ignore canon in my personal >campaign when it suits my purposes.<<< > > >Heh. I help *write* canon, and I still happily ignore it in my personal >campaigns when it suits my purposes. > >Canon, like rules, is there to provide a consistent _baseline_ for every In >Nomine player and GM. No one expects that every In Nomine player and GM >will stick to that baseline religiously. > >-David I like the way the FASA people put it in the Earthdawn book. "No one is going to go to your house and check that you're running your Earthdawn game the 'proper' way. We haven't finished checking all the Shadowrun players yet." rough paraphrase. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- | _ | | We are dreamers, shapers, singers and makers. /_\ | | We study the mysteries of laser and circuit, // \\ | | Crystal and scanner, holographic demons, \\ //___\\ | | And invocations of equations. \\ // \\ | | \\__// \\ | | These are the tools we employ. And we know... many things. \\ | | \\ | | | Frank Lazar http://www.interactive.net/~fmlazar | \\ | - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 05:34:01 -0200 From: Andre Ribeiro Subject: Re: IN> Lilith's Origin > Perhaps, except that she did not partake of the forbidden fruit, and thus > was not condemned to die like all of Adam's and Eve's descendants. As far as I know, mankind was never *condemned* to die because they'd eaten the fruit of knowledge. We die today because they did *not* ate from the other fruit, the fruit of life - the one which would turn them into immortals. But Lilith's *is* immortal. So she ate the fruit of life. But how she could know about such fruit? Because she ate from the fruit of knowledge - even before Eve. I think Adam & Eve hadn't the chance to go for the fruit of life thanks to the interference of Ophis, the Serpent - she was a Celestial and her presence must had alerted Heaven in some sort of way... Lilith did it alone, so she managed to succeed. Andre, D.P. ):-9 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 08:40:59 +0100 (MET) From: David Skogsberg Subject: Re: IN> Strange Question On Mon, 24 Nov 1997, Perry M. Lloyd wrote: > >Redemption (as Dai put it, a while ago) is a lie told by the Other Side to > >make the demons think there is something better up there then what they > >have at home, to make them weak. As a hell-born demon, I'd probably shoot > >myself before too much of this. > > > >That sword cuts both ways, ya know? > > The sword of lies or truth? "Truth is a three-edged sword", n'est ce pas? cd - -- cd skogsberg | d97skog@dtek.chalmers.se Starving Freshthing at Chalmers University, Dept. of Computer Science and Technology ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 02:56:36 EST From: "Perry M. Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Strange Question From: David Skogsberg >> >Redemption (as Dai put it, a while ago) is a lie told by the Other Side to >> >make the demons think there is something better up there then what they >> >have at home, to make them weak. As a hell-born demon, I'd probably shoot >> >myself before too much of this. >> > >> >That sword cuts both ways, ya know? >> >> The sword of lies or truth? >"Truth is a three-edged sword", n'est ce pas? 'sais pas, tu m'dis. :) Je n'connais pas l'expression ce que t'as dit. Wow, maybe I *should* look into that In Nomine Satanis/Magna Veritas thing... Cool. - -Perry Perry M. Lloyd "I saw a monster come with speed, Its face of grimmest green. On human beings it used to feed, Most dreadful to be seen. -Lewis Carroll (from "Horrors"-1850) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 08:50:18 -0000 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: Re: IN> Angels and Souls (was Angelaki) >> I take it the Tetragrammaton is the name of God that Lilith spoke? >> Or am I missing a Kult reference. >Nope, that's just Occult. The Tetragrammaton is the Name of God. The tetragrammaton is the 4-letter name of God (yud-hey-vav-hey, as per God introducing himself to Moses in the burning bush part of Exodus -- the name is actually written in the bible). According to Kabbalistic thought, there were a lot of names for God and invoking Him by different names was a way yo invoke different aspects (I don't know a great deal about it beyond that myself). There was supposed to be one specific ineffable name by which He was known to the angels, which was the most powerful one of all -- but since it was ineffable no-one knows it ;-) I don't think it was supposed to be the same as the tetragrammaton. Some of the angels had multiple names also (and some of those names were extremely long). jo ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 10:02:08 +0100 (MET) From: David Skogsberg Subject: Re: IN> Strange Question On Tue, 25 Nov 1997, Perry M. Lloyd wrote: > From: David Skogsberg > >> >Redemption (as Dai put it, a while ago) is a lie told by the Other > >> >Side to make the demons think there is something better up there > >> >then what they have at home, to make them weak. As a hell-born > >> >demon, I'd probably shoot myself before too much of this. > >> > > >> >That sword cuts both ways, ya know? > >> > >> The sword of lies or truth? > > >"Truth is a three-edged sword", n'est ce pas? > > 'sais pas, tu m'dis. :) > That's what Kosh said. Maybe I should have said '"Truth is a three-edged sword", n'est ce pas?' instead. > Je n'connais pas l'expression ce que t'as dit. > It's one of those funky Vorlon sayings. > Wow, maybe I *should* look into that In Nomine Satanis/Magna Veritas thing... > Cool. > Try KULT inst^H^H^H^Htoo. There you can swipe some really cool ideas if you play with the brightness all the way down. cd - -- cd skogsberg | d97skog@dtek.chalmers.se Starving Freshthing at Chalmers University, Dept. of Computer Science and Technology ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 04:19:43 EST From: "Perry M. Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Strange Question > >> From: David Skogsberg >> >> >Redemption (as Dai put it, a while ago) is a lie told by the Other >> >> >Side to make the demons think there is something better up there >> >> >then what they have at home, to make them weak. As a hell-born >> >> >demon, I'd probably shoot myself before too much of this. >> >> > >> >> >That sword cuts both ways, ya know? >> >> >> >> The sword of lies or truth? >> >> >"Truth is a three-edged sword", n'est ce pas? >> >> 'sais pas, tu m'dis. :) >> > >That's what Kosh said. Maybe I should have said '"Truth is a >three-edged sword", n'est ce pas?' instead. Ha, ha, ha.... Vorlons... ("Psst, brain, what the HELL is he talking about?" "He's talking about that show, ummm... either some Star Trek thing or that Deep Space Nine show that's MUCH better and goes by a different name.... duh.... Babylion 5 or something..." "Okay, thanks, I think." "No problem.") >> Je n'connais pas l'expression ce que t'as dit. >> > >It's one of those funky Vorlon sayings. Ha, ha, ha... yeah.... > >> Wow, maybe I *should* look into that In Nomine Satanis/Magna Veritas thing... >> Cool. >> > >Try KULT inst^H^H^H^Htoo. There you can swipe some really cool ideas if >you play with the brightness all the way down. Yiurk... It sounds scary. I don't like scary. The most evil thoughts I toss into my mental salad (tossed salad?) the most evil thoughts I have and the worse I feel. I'm a psych major, I feed my brain nice things. :) Like Dark Victory and the even DARKER "Bright Victory" we've working on. I call it, we call it, "New Jerusalem"... heh heh heh... I've promised myself to start posts over Thanksgiving break. Everybody give me encouragement so I'll do it. :) - -Perry Perry M. Lloyd "I saw a monster come with speed, Its face of grimmest green. On human beings it used to feed, Most dreadful to be seen. -Lewis Carroll (from "Horrors"-1850) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 97 06:16:09 -0500 From: David Wood Subject: Re: IN> An Awful Noise in the Name of the Lord Quoth "Ozmodeus " on 11/24/97 2:41 PM... >Here's an idea about symphony noise: >Aren't events separate noise creators? What I mean is, you're >all counting the Apocalypse as ONE event with one big clang in >the symphony. In reality, it was probably a bunch of big bombs >that would definitely be heard, and a bunch of less severe, >less "boomy" incidents. Yes, you're right that events create their individual noises. However, when enough of them happen close enough together, they tend to snowball. I'll get into that in more detail down below. >For example, the nuke that takes out Washington makes a huge >noise. Point of information: in the DV continuum, Washington was eradicated by celestial activity, either celestials fighting each other, or celestials killing the humans. If it was merely nuked, then it might or might not make ANY celestial noise -- it all depends whether or not a celestial hit the button or otherwise ordered the launch... (BTW, this makes the Balseraph presidency a tricky thing to manage. "Look, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms are setting fire to that compound!" "Then why are all the echoes coming from Washington DC?" "Hmmmmm...") > The celestial murder squad that kills a small group of >people does not. There's a good chance that someone could miss >the latter, especially in face of the former. Well, no. Again, I refer you to the Book of Mechanics, p. 55: "When several Symphony-changing actions take place together, or nearly together, in space and time, treat each one as a new event that *includes all the preceding ones*." (Emphasis added by me) What this means is if first someone nearby guns down that small group of people for a 75 point echo, and you're close enough by and quickly spend 1 Essence for a Song, then congratulations, you've just made the world's cheapest 76 point echo. > It's like >someone talking to you while an air raid siren is going off - >it just doesn't get through. Noises in the Symphony aren't like regular sound waves. For one thing, humans can't hear 'em. Neither can dogs or elephants. Second, matter doesn't stop it; not even planetary mass slows it down. Imagine having to wait for that air raid siren to stop sounding so you don't make a noise *even louder than it*... >Don't get me wrong, this isn't exactly something that an angel >or demon is going to miss hearing, I'm just pointing out that >you all are treating armageddon as one big BOOM with the >appropriate noise being heard 90 galaxies away for 137 million >years. Not quiiiiite. According to the calculations cited above, the echoes from 120 dead would be loud enough to be heard world-wide for 30 hours. And according to the rule cited above, any new sound produced close enough and soon enough after the original sound would retain the previous sound's magnitude as well as its own. In the DV continuum, 250 MILLION people died within the first 24 hours. Sure, not all of it would be celestially produced, and that would reduce the numbers a little, but it was Armageddon -- the Final Battle Between Heaven And Hell, and they weren't going to stop fighting just 'cos they were afraid of waking the neighbors. All that sound bouncing around would start snowballing, then the snowballs would clump together, and sooner or later, whether or not you did the killing in one swell foop, you'd have that BOOM. >DanOz - demon of taking things apart "accidentally" - -David http://www.bluecrab.org/members/dwood/ Demon of Obfuscation in service to Malphas ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 08:12:17 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Strange Question > >Redemption (as Dai put it, a while ago) is a lie told by the Other Side to > >make the demons think there is something better up there then what they > >have at home, to make them weak. As a hell-born demon, I'd probably shoot > >myself before too much of this. > > > >That sword cuts both ways, ya know? > > The sword of lies or truth? Could be that the Hell-born demons are told > that redemption is a lie (told to them by the Balseraphs, no doubt, ain't > that oxymoronic) and the Angels really do have something to fear, > especially since existance after the fall is "the unknown" and we all tend > to fear _that_. So, the demons are kept confused and the angels are kept > in line... > How handy. O:::) Indeed. The universe is a handy place, and helps my theory that all of Creation is really run by Lucifer as some sort of big, sick, twisted joke. Although that character that made that comment (I would have to dig it out of my logs for exact wording) is Hell's Poster Child for Angst. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 08:52:44 -0500 From: John Dye Subject: Re: IN> Strange Question Nathaniel Eliot wrote: > > > > In other words, there *is* a precedence for Lucifer being able > > > to change a human into a demon... or am I missing something? > > > > The thing you are missing is that no one specifically ever > > said that Lilith was _human_. Wife != Human. > > That's a pretty heavy statement, John...usually I go for the safer > Mother-in-Law != Human. > Funny, that's the first definitive statement that leads me to believe humans can become demons... ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #486 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.