From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sun Nov 30 15:11:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA14319 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 15:11:05 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id OAA12522 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 14:57:32 -0600 Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 14:57:32 -0600 Message-Id: <199711302057.OAA12522@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #491 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Sunday, November 30 1997 Volume 01 : Number 491 In this digest: IN> Theology (and Seraphim) Re: IN> Theology (was Re: digest #487) Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #487 Re: IN> Celestial genders IN> Fluff: Celestials in Space Re: IN> Pagan Victory IN> Angel of Masada Re: IN> Theology (was Re: digest #487) IN> Superiors' Notes: Nybbas, Vapula,, Kobal, and Andrealphus Re: IN> Superiors' Notes: Nybbas, Vapula,, Kobal, and Andrealphu Re: IN> Theology (was Re: digest #487) IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #490 Re: IN> Theology (and Seraphim) Re: IN> Relievers ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 15:02:39 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Theology (and Seraphim) >>>The name may well suggest that, but Christianity doesn't seem to. I can't quote accurately off hand, but Christ said that 'there is no other way to God than through me'. So he said that Jews, Muslims and Buddhists are all damned.<<< No he didn't. >>>I have never seen any Biblical support for the salvation of non-Christians. As far as I can tell, and I am neither a Christian nor a theologist, the central theme of Christianity is that we are all irredeemable sinners, doomed to death for what we have done, but that Christ, by dying for us, can save us _if_ we accept his gift.<<< That's the central theme of a certain branch of fundamentalist Christianity. It is by no means a universal Christian tenet that all non-Christians are doomed to Hell. Christ never said any such thing. The "No one comes to the Father but through me" line is frequently quoted by Biblical inerrantists, but that doesn't mean it's accepted by all Christians to mean what fundamentalists say it means. (I am not a Christian, btw -- I'm just prone to jumping in to defend _any_ group that I think is being taken out of context. ) >>>'Some people', in this case, includes the Gospel writers. Provided Jimmy has truly accepted Christ as his saviour, it doesn't matter what he did previously. He will be saved from death.<<< Though it should be noted that a meaningful application of this salvation doctrine says that accepting Christ means undergoing true repentance. I.e. Christ will forgive you of your sins, no matter what they are, if you TRULY repent and choose to try to live your life according to his teachings, but someone who just mouths acceptance of Christ but continues acting like a jerk (or worse) isn't saved. >>>This is not true in IN, where Christianity is simply Laurence's pet project.<<< No, Laurence believes in and supports Christianity, but it is not his "project". He did not originate it. >>>Incidentally, who exactly _was_ Christ? God's vessel? Some other being higher than the angels? A soldier doing as he was told? Or are SJ Games not telling?<<< That's a question that will most likely never be answered canonically. It's better to let each GM work that out for himself. (Note that even the Archangels don't know who Christ really was -- Laurence truly believes he was the Son of God and that God intends Christianity to be the guiding light for humanity...but other Archangels do not agree.) >>>Why doesn't a Seraph of Dominic, with 6 Celestial forces, and perception 12, simply find some slob and ask him 'Why does God allow evil?'. The guy says 'Because He doesn't care', the angel has an automatic success on his resonance, with check digit 7-12, and instantly knows The Truth, whatever it is.<<< The Seraphic resonance cannot pick out "Truths" that the subject could not possibly know. This is the same reason a Seraph can't, say, ask random mortals "Are Janus and Valefor the same being?" or "Where is Archangel Eli right now?", and keep asking until he gets a check digit of 6. For conceptual AND game balance reasons, a mere angel doesn't get a 1 in 6 chance to dig up ineffable secrets of the universe just because a literal interpretation of a particular game mechanic suggests it. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 15:05:04 -0500 (EST) From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> Theology (was Re: digest #487) DISCLAIMER: I am not a student of theology by any means. Having sated that, I would like to offer my -opinion- on the matter. On Sat, 29 Nov 1997, Steve Jessop wrote: > The name may well suggest that, but Christianity doesn't seem to. I can't > quote accurately off hand, but Christ said that 'there is no other way to > God than through me'. So he said that Jews, Muslims and Buddhists are all > damned. I interpret this in a figurative, rather than literal, sense. By this statement, I believe Jesus was saying that the various rituals of the Hebrew faith were no longer necessary (as they were in Leviticus) to ensure a place in Heaven -- that acceptance of God's love was all that was necessary. I could be wrong, but I believe that love of God is encouraged in Judaism, Islam, and even Hinduism to a certain degree. Pure Buddhism, as I understand it, is more of a philosophy of social conduct and belief in reincarnation, rather than what we would call a true religion. I have absolutely no idea where the animistic religions (ex. Shinto) stand. > I have never seen any Biblical support for the salvation of > non-Christians. As far as I can tell, and I am neither a Christian nor a > theologist, the central theme of Christianity is that we are all > irredeemable sinners, doomed to death for what we have done, but that > Christ, by dying for us, can save us _if_ we accept his gift. Well, yes. Though I haven't found anything in -Christ's- statements which indicate that someone must be 100% Christian to recieve salvation. (MML&J may have said this, but since they're human, they could very well be in error.) I simply cannot accept the notion that God would turn his back on the Jewish people after the birth of Christianity. > Incidentally, who exactly _was_ Christ? God's vessel? Some other being > higher than the angels? A soldier doing as he was told? Or are SJ Games > not telling? I'd suggest searching the mailing list archives for this thread. There are several views on the subject. I've entertained the possibility that it might be Eli.... > Why doesn't a Seraph of Dominic, with 6 Celestial forces, and perception > 12, simply find some slob and ask him 'Why does God allow evil?'. The guy > > 1) The Truth to this particular question does not lie within the Symphony > (a way to feed Seraphs false info, since Celestial action can change > The Truth of any question). Possibly. Depends on whether or not God exists outside of the Symphony in your game. > 2) The GM (or God, or Dominic) blows the angel's head off for being a > smug, nosey, so and so. In which case maybe it should be dissonant for a > Seraph to ask the Wrong Questions... Perhaps a bit heavy-handed, but definately the option I'd use. The Seraph gets a funny feeling of being watched, and a voice (-not- his Superior's!) intones, "Don't ask questions like that." - -- Casca, Seraph of Archives (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 15:28:09 -0500 From: Frank Lazar Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #487 >Corey wrote: > > 2) Free Will Theory (brought to you by Saint Augustine, the same man who >says that evil is genetic, passed by the semen. What a crazy bizarro world >nut.): Man has free will. If man chooses to do evil toward man, such is man's >fault. God can stop it, but he won't, because that would defy man of his Free >Will. Is it evil that God would allow such evil to happen? Hey! Don't judge >God! Perhaps He, in his All Knowingness, has decided that it would be far >more evil to defy us our Free Will. (Those who use their Free Will for good >get a special prize.) > He also "gave" us the concept of Pre-Augustinean Time. When asked what God was doing before He created the Universe, the saint was said to reply; "He was creating a Hell for those who asked such questions." So Pre-Augustinean refers to that time before Big Bang/Creation which by definition is unknowable. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- | _ | | We are dreamers, shapers, singers and makers. /_\ | | We study the mysteries of laser and circuit, // \\ | | Crystal and scanner, holographic demons, \\ //___\\ | | And invocations of equations. \\ // \\ | | \\__// \\ | | These are the tools we employ. And we know... many things. \\ | | \\ | | | Frank Lazar http://www.interactive.net/~fmlazar | \\ | - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 15:39:53 -0500 From: Frank Lazar Subject: Re: IN> Celestial genders >At 11:35 AM -0500 11/21/97, Jesse Rooney wrote: >>Question- >>Why is Gaberial described as female? My reading of the Bible and the Koran >>is that Gabby was male. I am just chauvinist or did Derek and CROC send >>Gabby to a clinic in Europe? > >Celestials can be whatever gender they want. Dominic/Dominique, or >Gabriel/Gabrielle. Gaby just decided that it liked being female this >millenium. Turn of the century, maybe it will go male again. > >*I* think it's because it's ineffably cooler to have Gaby be female, >and the *pictures*! Yum. > I'm not sure, but I believe that there is at least one of the medieval bestiaries that not only lists Gabriel as a female angel, but as the only one! If that were true in the beginning, no wonder she's crazy. :) - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- | _ | | We are dreamers, shapers, singers and makers. /_\ | | We study the mysteries of laser and circuit, // \\ | | Crystal and scanner, holographic demons, \\ //___\\ | | And invocations of equations. \\ // \\ | | \\__// \\ | | These are the tools we employ. And we know... many things. \\ | | \\ | | | Frank Lazar http://www.interactive.net/~fmlazar | \\ | - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 15:44:15 -0500 From: Frank Lazar Subject: IN> Fluff: Celestials in Space > >> [Canon Request] Are there any Celestials on the moon? > >[Canon Request] Are there any Celestials on Alpha Centauri? > >;-) > > >Yours in Cacaphony, >Nathaniel Eliot >temujin9@ix.netcom.com Hmm... one appropriate place might be Deep Space Nine, the most religously contested corner of the Trek Universe. :) Now that's an idea for a crossover story I just might do. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- | _ | | We are dreamers, shapers, singers and makers. /_\ | | We study the mysteries of laser and circuit, // \\ | | Crystal and scanner, holographic demons, \\ //___\\ | | And invocations of equations. \\ // \\ | | \\__// \\ | | These are the tools we employ. And we know... many things. \\ | | \\ | | | Frank Lazar http://www.interactive.net/~fmlazar | \\ | - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 18:56:07 -0600 (CST) From: Dorothy Bixler Subject: Re: IN> Pagan Victory On Thu, 27 Nov 1997, John L Veazey wrote: > I believe I remember that there were supposed to be 6 parts to the Pagan > Victory outline, but I remember only the first part. Have I missed the > rest or have they not been written and sent yet? > > It's another tidbit upon which I wish to gorge myself. *sheepish look* no you haven't missed anything , Donald and I are still working on them, we just got sidetracked with work and school. I hope we can have more out within the next week. > > Vz -- the ever lurking > -- > John L Veazey (Vz) | Warning: In case of accidental overdose, > veazey@ebicom.net | seek professional assistance or contact > jlv2@ra.msstate.edu | Poison Control Center Immediately. > *Dorothy Michelle Bixler * mudmh10@ecom.ecn.bgu.edu* "Gidget, have you been laying with the Horned One again?" -MST3K's Mike from "The Thing the Couldn't Die" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 23:06:13 -0500 (EST) From: Casca Subject: IN> Angel of Masada This is something I've been working on for a while. I'm not entirely happy with it; it needs polishing. I also need some help in thinking up specific Rites and Attunements he could give his servants. Suggestions would be most welcome.... Zuriel, Angel of Masada Malakite Master of the Granite Hand 21 Forces: 7 each Corporeal, Ethereal, Celestial Attunements: All attunements of Stone, Master of Valor (through David's alliance with Michael; the Word of Masada serves War as well as Stone) Songs, Skills, etc: Whatever you want. Zuriel is the next best thing to an Archangel, and so should wipe the floor with any PCs who go up against him. Skills and songs having to do with combat will most likely be maxed out. He uses the Celestial Song of Motion/6 to teleport to Masada, should the need arise for him to defend his Tether. "The world outnumbers us 2.5 billion to one. We may not win, but we'll put up a fight they'll not soon forget." Zuriel is a rarity among Wordbound: a Seneschal who has managed to expand his Word to encompass more than just the Tether he guards. He was originally assigned by David to aid the Jews' fight for independence from Syria during the Hasmonean Revolt (167-142 BC). To this end, he encouraged the leader of the rebellion, Jonathan, to build the mountain fortress of Masada. Zuriel was instrumental in its design, and brought all of his attunements to bear during its construction. His goal was to create a defensive masterpiece, a fortress that could hold out under an assult from overwhelming odds. The resultant design was impressive enough to draw the attention of David himself, and Zuriel became the permanent caretaker of Masada. In 63 BC the Romans conquered Judea, and King Herod reinforced the fortress in 40 BC. In 66 AD, a band of Jewish zealots called the Sicarii (dagger-men) started a revolt in Judea and seized Herod's fortresses to hold out against the Roman armies. One of these fortresses was Masada, and it was at this time that it was put to its truest test: beseiged by an entire Roman legion, its defenders numbered a few hundred. The Romans could not take Masada by force; they had to resort to starving the defenders out. The defenders held out for seven years. They committed suicide rather than starve or surrender the fortress. It was this act of final defiance, holding out against impossible odds for so long a time, that turned Masada into a Tether of Stone. Zuriel was its first Seneschal. The spirit of Masada lives on in Isreal. Recruits within the Israli army regularly go there to swear an oath that "Masada will not fall again." It is this spirit of defiance, remembered and respected, that has swelled Zuriel's power. He is no longer simply the Angel of Masada; his word encompasses any defensive struggle against odds so overwhelming as to be impossible. He fought alongside Davey Crockett at the Alamo; he was there at the Battle of Rourke's Drift in South Africa. He doesn't care which side he fights on; his job is to be a defender. David has his eye on Zuriel, who has shown considerable savvy in expanding the scope of his Word beyond a simple Tether. He has the potential to make Archangel within the next thousand years. (Yes, I know Zuriel blows the power curve all to Hell. This is intentional; he's had Earth duty for over two thousand years. He is a badass, as befits his word; two Master-level distinctions should help drive that point home. If played properly, he will annihilate any PC group that goes up against him. He's not meant to be a direct adversary; play him like a scaled-down David.) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 01:58:45 -0500 From: "Ehrbar" Subject: Re: IN> Theology (was Re: digest #487) >> Day of Judgement. The mere name suggests time spent weighing a person's >> good versus a person's bad. > >The name may well suggest that, but Christianity doesn't seem to. I can't >quote accurately off hand, but Christ said that 'there is no other way to >God than through me'. So he said that Jews, Muslims and Buddhists are all >damned. I have never seen any Biblical support for the salvation of >non-Christians. To quote John 14:6 (New American Bible translation [a 1978 Roman Catholic Church authorized English translation]): Jesus said to him, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." OTOH, Revelation 20:4 (same translation) says: ..The dead were judged according to their deeds, by what was written in [the Book of Life]. How to reconclie this? In John Chapter 1 (and in Rev. 19:13), Jesus is identified as the incarnate Word of God. Accordingly, an appropriate interpretation of John 14:6 is "The Word of God is the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through it." This is a theological basis for Pope John Paul II saying that faithful Jews can be saved through the Old Covenant: 1) The Old Covenant is the Word of God 2) Jesus is the Word of God 3) Therefore, the Old Covenant is Jesus. and therefore, Jews who keep the Old Covenant are being saved by Jesus. This is also the basis for a few things said by the Second Vatican Council to the effect that honest Hindus, Muslims, and others can be saved -- no man knows all the ways God may have sent his Word to the world. >As far as I can tell, and I am neither a Christian nor a >theologist, the central theme of Christianity is that we are all >irredeemable sinners, doomed to death for what we have done, but that >Christ, by dying for us, can save us _if_ we accept his gift. More or less. I *strongly* suggest anyone who wants to know what Christianity is to read C.S. Lewis's "Mere Christianity". The Bible is good, but the cultural assumptions of 2-6 thousand years ago plus thousands of pages of text can lead to [serious] misunderstandings. >Incidentally, who exactly _was_ Christ? God's vessel? SJ Games hasn't told. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 02:29:55 -0500 From: "bruce dykes" Subject: IN> Superiors' Notes: Nybbas, Vapula,, Kobal, and Andrealphus Okay, the Wheel of Em spun and we got text! Good for the most part, but I have a different take on Kobal and his relation with Nybbas. Not any kind of canon nit, just a matter of different focus. I see the relationships between these four breaking down like so: Vapula - Hardware Developer Andre - Content Developer Kobal - Content Developer Nybbas - Access Developer Specifically, with regards to Kobal's recent boredom in this tail end of the century, I can quite easily see large numbers of his minor demonlings chained to typewriters, cranking out sitcoms (an infinite number of imps at an infinite number of typewriters will eventually create all the scripts of "Full House") and the like, while he keeps on only a limited number to do the necessary scutwork in his organization. Just about every Prince whose Word depends on humans (Lust, Gluttony, Factions, etc.) has at least a liaison office in Nybbas' realm, if not a full fledged content development team. Pretty much the only Princes who don't utilise Nybbas' services are Saminga, Vapula(who has a different sort of relationship), Asmodeus, and Belial, but Nybbas is fairly aggressive about promoting his services and is constantly trying to drum up sales among those Princes. Working in Nybbas' Ad Sales department is literally murder... Anyway, just my thoughts on Nybbas. Bruce Impudite Captain of Cross-Licensing bdykes@intac.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 11:09:32 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> Superiors' Notes: Nybbas, Vapula,, Kobal, and Andrealphu > Vapula - Hardware Developer > Andre - Content Developer > Kobal - Content Developer > Nybbas - Access Developer I would be that most of Hell ends up as an end user of some of the more stable stuff. Belial goes for bigger and better flame-throwers, Baal goes for WMD (who do you think has been encouraging Saddam?), Asmodeus for better handcuffs (Andre might want these, too), and Kobal for Em's exploding chewing gum. Those that I see as least interested would be Malphas, Beleth, and Kronos. Valefor would like it - he just wouldn't *buy* it. > (an infinite number of imps at an infinite number of typewriters > will eventually create all the scripts of "Full House") It didn't take an infinite number the first time, and it didn't take them very long either (just look at ABC's Friday night lineup, and you can tell where they are working now...). Personally, I think Kobal stopped doing that a while ago (after all, it's only funny how pathetic a show people will watch for a little while), and now it's straight Nybbas. > Just about every Prince whose Word depends on humans (Lust, > Gluttony, Factions, etc.) has at least a liaison office in Nybbas' > realm, if not a full fledged content development team. Pretty much > the only Princes who don't utilise Nybbas' services are Saminga, > Vapula(who has a different sort of relationship), Even Vapula I could see wanting ads that encourage humanity's blind reliance on technology - after all, Hell could always use more beta-testers... Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com "It's the eternal question, really; to be a slave in Heaven, or a star in Hell. But sometimes Hell doesn't look like Hell. On a good day, it can look like LA." - Playing God ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 10:38:21 +0000 From: tom timberlake Subject: Re: IN> Theology (was Re: digest #487) Ehrbar wrote: > > >> Day of Judgement. The mere name suggests time spent weighing a person's > >> good versus a person's bad. > > > >The name may well suggest that, but Christianity doesn't seem to. I can't > >quote accurately off hand, but Christ said that 'there is no other way to > >God than through me'. So he said that Jews, Muslims and Buddhists are all > >damned. I have never seen any Biblical support for the salvation of > >non-Christians. > > To quote John 14:6 (New American Bible translation [a 1978 Roman Catholic > Church authorized English translation]): > > Jesus said to him, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes > to the Father except through me." > > OTOH, Revelation 20:4 (same translation) says: > > ..The dead were judged according to their deeds, by what was written in > [the Book of Life]. > > How to reconclie this? In John Chapter 1 (and in Rev. 19:13), Jesus is > identified as the incarnate Word of God. Accordingly, an appropriate > interpretation of John 14:6 is "The Word of God is the way and the truth > and the life. No one comes to the Father except through it." > > This is a theological basis for Pope John Paul II saying that faithful > Jews can be saved through the Old Covenant: > > 1) The Old Covenant is the Word of God > 2) Jesus is the Word of God > 3) Therefore, the Old Covenant is Jesus. > > and therefore, Jews who keep the Old Covenant are being saved by Jesus. > > This is also the basis for a few things said by the Second Vatican > Council to the effect that honest Hindus, Muslims, and others can be > saved -- no man knows all the ways God may have sent his Word to the > world. Also, John, in his letters, repeatedly says that those who do good, are of God and those who do evil are not. This would seem to help cover the non-Christian Dilemna, if John didn't also insist on reiterating the importance of confessing Christ. But by skipping and editing the three letters of John, it is possible to construct a theology of salvation by works, which would take care of the Salvation of the non-Christians rather handily. [Devil's Advocate/] But the Church, in confronting the quarrel between whether works or faith is pre-eminent in importance to Salvation, has basically said that Salvation requires both, faith AND works. Thus, deeds-based admission to Heaven is not possible for those who have heard the message of Jesus and ignored it. In order to be judged by your deeds, written in the Book of Life, your name and deeds had to first be written in the Book, and accepting Jesus as Christ, and not just a prophet or a good man, was how your name and deeds gotten entered into the Book. [/Devil's Advocate] tom timberlake, role of James the Malak of Stone: "I am James, I will help you." ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 19:30:39 +0000 (GMT) From: James Palmer Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #490 On Sat, 29 Nov 1997, in_nomine-digest wrote: Unlurking, and hoping I used the right address ... > > The name may well suggest that, but Christianity doesn't seem to. I can't > quote accurately off hand, but Christ said that 'there is no other way to > God than through me'. So he said that Jews, Muslims and Buddhists are all > damned. I have never seen any Biblical support for the salvation of > non-Christians. As far as I can tell, and I am neither a Christian nor a > theologist, the central theme of Christianity is that we are all > irredeemable sinners, doomed to death for what we have done, but that > Christ, by dying for us, can save us _if_ we accept his gift. Traditionally, there's two answers to this one from the liberal viewpoint. a) The actual quote says "God the Father," not God. God as Father is a concept only found in Christianity and *maybe* Judaism. Therefore, you can reach another concept of God through a different religion, but you can only come to know God as Father thro. knowing his son. b) Who says that the only way to Christ is through Christianity? - see C.S.Lewis + The Last Battle, with Aslan saying to the Narnia equivalent of a Muslim (I forget the name), that whenever he prayed to his God sincerely he was really praying to Aslan ... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 19:47:35 +0000 (GMT) From: Steve Jessop Subject: Re: IN> Theology (and Seraphim) [Doubled references are all to me] David Edelstein wrote: > > Christ, by dying for us, can save us _if_ we accept his gift. > > That's the central theme of a certain branch of fundamentalist > Christianity. It is by no means a universal Christian tenet OK, fair enough. It was canon for a long, long time though. IMO, Christianity (to overgeneralise) has only recently decided that attempting to get along with other religions is worthwhile. > Laurence truly believes he was the Son of God and that God intends > Christianity to be the guiding light for humanity...but other Archangels > do not agree.) Thanks. It makes more sense now. However, Laurence must therefore be a fairly 'modern' Christian, in that he knows full well that non-Christian's _are_ saved, regularly. It is hard to reconcile him supporting Catholicism both in the 13th Century, and now. > The Seraphic resonance cannot pick out "Truths" that the subject could > not possibly know. That's a close run thing. Certainly IMC, you could never get an answer to a 'fundamental' question. If you run it your way, Seraphs might get stuck in cases where the subject is straight misinformed. Obviously I'm happy for each GM to run it however he thinks best. It just takes a lot of thought beforehand. > "Are Janus and Valefor the same being?" Why hasn't Dominic asked Janus this question? And why hasn't he told anyone else the answer? If they are the same, I can't see him failing to give Janus a thrashing. If different, it would take a _lot_ of fast-talk to stop him ending the confusion. The trouble I have is that it is very difficult to maintain such mysteries, when Seraphim are just so damn *good* at plot-cracking unless carefully restrained. Casca wrote: > I could be wrong, but I believe that love of God is encouraged in > Judaism, Islam, and even Hinduism to a certain degree. Umm... At risk of causing offence (I will accept correction), both Judaism and Islam consider worship and respect far more important than love for God. Christianity is unique in this way. > MML&J may have said this, but since they're human, they could very well > be in error. I simply cannot accept the notion that God would turn his > back on the Jewish people after the birth of Christianity. Don't say that too loudly. MML&J are divinely inspired scripture (at least, I have always had to accept this to discuss them with committed Christians). They are not wrong. They might be misinterpreted. Second, it wasn't God who turned his back in the Jews. Precisely the opposite, in fact. As I see it, before Grace, the Hebrews were God's chosen people, and lived by the Law. The purpose of Christ's sacrifice was to allow all humans to live under Grace, so that mercy rather than Law was the path to salvation. Neither of those is my opinion, but both are believed by at least one devout Christian. In C14, the doctrine of Purgatory finally gave the faithful Jews a place after death: they would not go immediately either to Heaven or Hell, and would certainly have a good chance come Judgement Day. I don't think this has ever been rescinded, but both Hell and Purgatory are a bit of an embarassment to many Christians, mostly due to the fact that popular opinions are not based on doctrine. > The Seraph gets a funny feeling of being watched, and a voice (-not- his > Superior's!) intones, "Don't ask questions like that." Nice. Still gives the opportunity for the Seraph to (dissonantly) disobey. In which case I would be tempted as GM to blow the *player*'s head off, and intone "Stop trying to abuse the rules." Steve. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 15:55:07 -0500 From: johnk@lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) Subject: Re: IN> Relievers > Right. I can see that, though I still think the reliever information (less > than half a page) is just a little lacking. The fact is I couldn't figure > out what I was now told by other list readers... I assume you as > Canonmeister agree with their replies by not answering my questions > yourself. The people who read this list are a pretty clever bunch, all-in-all. You could do worse than to listen to them. A lot of times when I've been stumped for an answer (or simply slow to reply) the proper response has popped up on here. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #491 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.