From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Dec 1 14:06:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA12458 for ; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 14:06:06 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id NAA15478 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 13:40:05 -0600 Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 13:40:05 -0600 Message-Id: <199712011940.NAA15478@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #493 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, December 1 1997 Volume 01 : Number 493 In this digest: Re: IN> Celestial names and other questions Re: IN> [DV] Business as Usual Re: IN> [DV] Business as Usual Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #487 Re: IN> [DV] Business as Usual Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #487 Re: IN> Superiors' Notes IN> I disse juletider Re: IN> Furfur (was Hell's Politics [REALLY REALLY LONG]) Re: IN> Seraphim Laurence and purple (Re: IN> Strange Question) IN> Em, The Demon of Playing In Nomine Backwards Re: IN> Creation of angels/demons Re: IN> Strange Question Re: IN> Strange Question Lilith (Re: IN> Angels and Souls (was Angelaki)) Re: IN> Damned Souls and Demons Re: IN> Relievers Re: IN> Strange Question--A little long(winded?) :) Re: IN> Angels and Souls (was Angelaki) Re: IN> An Awful Noise in the Name of the Lord (was Re: Achmetha) IN> The 144,000 IN> Demon Prince voices... IN> Christmas in Heaven Re: IN> Haagenti and Belial IN> Thermodynamics of Hell (fwd) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 11:28:06 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Celestial names and other questions A bit more on Malakim and the words for "king" and "angel." My father tells me: > The word "melekh" does indeed mean king. There are a number of > related words, meaning things like "rule, kingdom, reign." The word > for messenger looks very similar in English, not so similar in > Hebrew, because it has alef as the third consonant. (Alef > represents the glottal stop.) It can be represented by apostrophe, > in which case the word for messenger and angel is mal'akh. It is > used extensively throughout the Hebrew Bible. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 10:47:21 -0600 (CST) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> [DV] Business as Usual > > >---------- >> From: Redneck Gaijin >> To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >> Subject: IN> [DV] Business as Usual >> Date: Monday, December 01, 1997 12:38 AM >> >> Here's a quick snippet of something-or-other to keep my hand in... >> >> * * * * * * > >Damn, Kris, but this is good stuff. Thanks. Thanks for your comment. Redneck Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | "Hmmm... Sugar Plum Fairies." http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | --- Haagenti at the ballet c/o White Lightning Productions | * * * * * * http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | "MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!" Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- Laurence and Haagenti http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 11:12:10 -0600 From: Bob the Dancing Monkey Subject: Re: IN> [DV] Business as Usual At 11:38 PM 11/30/97 -0600, you wrote: >Here's a quick snippet of something-or-other to keep my hand in... > >* * * * * * > > He'd wanted to be the Angel of Sparrows, once. > Dang. Nice short bit. Please keep writing this stuff, Redneck. The storyline is compelling and the ideas are well-thought out. I am very much looking forward to the tale of Laughter, when and if it ever gets finished. How has the PBEM in the DV universe been progressing (and what's the URL for the archives of it? I was following them but lost the link.) - -Drew ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 12:33:45 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #487 On Thu, 27 Nov 1997, Corey wrote: > But _if_ God is truly omniscient and omnipotent, then he must be held > responsible for the evil in the world, as well as the good. To continue > with your example, he created and set in motion the the hedge maze. > Therefore he is responsible for all the things in the maze. No. Not if you believe that humans have free will. If you believe that, then God is not responsible for evil. He merely allows it to continue for a time. Why? Because, as free beings, humans have to be given a real choice between good and evil. Without evil being allowed to exist for a time, there would be no real freedom to choose good. After all, if all you can choose is "X", then how free are you when you choose it? Rich Gant ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 11:42:06 -0600 (CST) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> [DV] Business as Usual >At 11:38 PM 11/30/97 -0600, you wrote: >Dang. Nice short bit. Please keep writing this stuff, Redneck. The >storyline is compelling and the ideas are well-thought out. I am very much >looking forward to the tale of Laughter, when and if it ever gets finished. Unfortunately, that's not a story, it's an adventure seed which may be played out for my PBEM group... so I can't exactly run it out for the list. > How has the PBEM in the DV universe been progressing (and what's the URL >for the archives of it? I was following them but lost the link.) The good guys are doing better than expected, but it's still anybody's fight, and escape may or may not be a guarantee... The URL is http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/dvpbem/ . Redneck Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | "Hmmm... Sugar Plum Fairies." http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | --- Haagenti at the ballet c/o White Lightning Productions | * * * * * * http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | "MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!" Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- Laurence and Haagenti http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 11:44:59 -0600 From: Corey Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #487 At 12:33 PM 12/1/97 -0400, you wrote: > > >On Thu, 27 Nov 1997, Corey wrote: > >> But _if_ God is truly omniscient and omnipotent, then he must be held >> responsible for the evil in the world, as well as the good. To continue >> with your example, he created and set in motion the the hedge maze. >> Therefore he is responsible for all the things in the maze. > >No. Not if you believe that humans have free will. If you believe that, >then God is not responsible for evil. He merely allows it to continue for >a time. Why? Because, as free beings, humans have to be given a real >choice between good and evil. Without evil being allowed to exist for a >time, there would be no real freedom to choose good. After all, if all >you can choose is "X", then how free are you when you choose it? > I agree whole heartedly with this, as I addressed in one of my other posts. How 'ere, simply allowing it to continue, even for good, is still an evil act. Keep in mind this all IMO, I am no theologian. On the other hand, God is ineffable, and therefore whatever He wants to do is most likely right. Corey - --"I see the end in every beginning. I hear the last word echo in the first. I do not desire, or dream, or destroy. I do not despair, or delight. I know." -Destiny. "Destiny: A Chronicle of Death's Foretold" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 17:40:40 -0000 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: Re: IN> Superiors' Notes Emily Dresner said: >I wonder a bit about Nybbas's soaring power, and scratch my chin. I >have NPCs who work for Nybbas. He's promoting a very odd side of >Creativity, even if it's trash, isn't he? He's perverting creativity, you mean. All those creative people who're being harnessed into making the great media-mobile keep turning around, anyone who is lured into writing trashy sitcoms because it pays well when really they could have been soaring so much higher. Promoting trashy creativity automatically means crushing non-trashy creativity -- its the same pool of creators who are pulled into either side. Now some people can do both, but Nybbas doesn't encourage /that/. Media is about control, pure and simple. Sure, they'll tell you its creative, but servants of lust will tell you that lust is healthy. As my art teacher used to say, draw your own conclusions ;) The aim of the Media is not to encourage the masses to explore their own creativity (and it is largely successful in this). jo ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 19:03:40 -0100 From: Henry Leirvoll Subject: IN> I disse juletider The temperature of Heaven can be rather accurately computed. Our authority is Isaiah 30:26, "Moreover, the light of the Moon shall be as the light of the Sun and the light of the Sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days." Thus Heaven receives from the Moon as much radiation as we do from the Sun, and in addition 7*7 (49) times as much as the Earth does from the Sun, or 50 times in all. The light we receive from the Moon is one 1/10,000 of the light we receive from the Sun, so we can ignore that ... The radiation falling on Heaven will heat it to the point where the heat lost by radiation is just equal to the heat received by radiation, i.e., Heaven loses 50 times as much heat as the Earth by radiation. Using the Stefan-Boltzmann law for radiation, (H/E)^4 = 50, where E is the absolute temperature of the earth (-300K), gives H as 798K (525C). The exact temperature of Hell cannot be computed ... [However] Revelations 21:8 says "But the fearful, and unbelieving ... shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone." A lake of molten brimstone means that its temperature must be at or below the boiling point, 444.6C. We have, then, that Heaven, at 525C is hotter than Hell at 445C. - -- 0000,0000,ffffH. Leirvoll / kulde@intercom.no ICQ - UIN : 1255494 ffff,0000,0000- ^Heksheim / Black Metal^ - http://www.intercom.no/~kulde ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 18:21:23 +0000 From: "David Chart" Subject: Re: IN> Furfur (was Hell's Politics [REALLY REALLY LONG]) - --On Mon, Dec 1, 1997 9:47 am -0500 "Jesse Rooney" wrote: > Well no, Lucifer, while powerful, is not all knowing. Otherwise he would > have seen the fool that Furfur and Jesus made of him and stopped it or > prevented it. Oh yes, Furfur. I looked him up, and it was a cross-reference to a different text, so I have less than I thought. Basically, you could summon him to teach you astronomy and other sciences, or to gain the love of a woman. So, the demon of Cheating On Your Homework and Hot Dates. Maybe giving him rock'n'roll wasn't so daft after all. (Furfur made a fool of Lucifer? That's not how I read Night Music, but I don't have the later books yet.) David Chart Seraph of Destiny ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 18:37:36 +0000 From: "David Chart" Subject: Re: IN> Seraphim - --On Sun, Nov 30, 1997 7:47 pm +0000 "Steve Jessop" wrote: >> The Seraphic resonance cannot pick out "Truths" that the subject could >> not possibly know. > > That's a close run thing. Certainly IMC, you could never get an answer to > a 'fundamental' question. If you run it your way, Seraphs might get stuck > in cases where the subject is straight misinformed. Obviously I'm happy > for each GM to run it however he thinks best. It just takes a lot of > thought beforehand. > "What is the ordered pair consisting of the best question to ask the Symphony, and its answer?" (From a published philosophy paper). Just keep asking that until you get a six, then start on the second best, and so on. :-) "What is the most important thing for me to know right now?" is another good choice. Hmm, something just occurred to me that might even be canon. Seraphim get their answers from the Symphony, and Celestials mess with Symphony whenever they do something. Thus, a Seraph can only get the Truth modulo the actions, beliefs, and desires of Celestials. (This would gel with some other resonances, which tell you when someone will die, modulo the actions of Celestials, and similar.) >> "Are Janus and Valefor the same being?" > > Why hasn't Dominic asked Janus this question? Dom's a Bal... > And why hasn't he told > anyone else the answer? The answer is "no". Janus is an Archangel, Valefor a Demon Prince. Very different beings. Of course, they might be the same in some deep way, but since one is part of the Symphony and the other radically disconnected, the Symphony will surely see them as different. This ties in with what I said above (but was written first): an attunement to the Symphony won't tell you *that* much about Celestials. > If they are the same, I can't see him failing to > give Janus a thrashing. If different, it would take a _lot_ of fast-talk > to stop him ending the confusion. The trouble I have is that it is very > difficult to maintain such mysteries, when Seraphim are just so damn > *good* at plot-cracking unless carefully restrained. This is a general problem with any sort of magical truth detection. Litheroy is even worse: setting up any sort of puzzle for his Servitors will take a *lot* of advance planning. Still, it's worth it. David Chart Seraph of Destiny ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 12:43:53 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Laurence and purple (Re: IN> Strange Question) At 9:35 PM -0600 11/23/97, Redneck Gaijin wrote: >>BTW Lawrence told me he resents the purple tutu crack.He does not prance, >>he gracefully jumps and he prefers strawberry pink and pistachio green. > >Sir, you have obviously been misled by a Balseraph of Kronos. Laurence likes >purple just fine, but he's still wearing a cape and bellbottoms and insists >they're coming back in style. }:-{D Mind you, they're purple *leather*... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 12:57:35 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Em, The Demon of Playing In Nomine Backwards At 8:03 AM -0500 11/24/97, Emily Dresner wrote: >> > - Em, The Demon of Playing In Nomine Backwards >> >> I'm assuming you're Balseraph, but who is your Superior? I can't >> quite see Kobal as being into backwards IN... >Em, Balseraph Captain of the Game, Demon of Playing In Nomine Backwards >I have Rites and everything. :) >I work for Azzie. But I hang with Kobal's people sometimes, just because >it's cool. Either that, or she's a spy, but what else do you expect of the Game? - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 13:08:07 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Creation of angels/demons At 11:37 AM -0500 11/24/97, Earl Wajenberg wrote: >I like this model of angel and demon creation, too. If angels >decide to "have a baby," perhaps they "adopt" a reliever (though >I'm still rooting for "angelisco") from the Symphony rather than >create one. I, too, have assumed that this is "common" as a means of celestial families. Becoming a mentor to a little 3-Force reliever is probably the closest most angels get to parenthood. Of course, this also can result in "single-parent" families, as well as 2-parent, 3-parent, 10-parent... (Of course, start counting when a Kyrio is involved, and you'll get a headache...) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 12:51:09 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Strange Question At 11:33 PM +0000 11/23/97, Nathaniel Eliot wrote: >> That is an interesting concept.I can imagine an elohim of Yves >> asking a mercurian of Novalis what it means by I love you. Can >> something or some one understand an urge that it cannot feel? Still >> love on an individual basis seems IMHO to be part of God's >> masterplan...But then what isn't:) > >I'd point out that an Elohim *can* feel, but can't act on those >feelings. Thus, they can fall in love, but can't save their love >from a perilous fate without another reason... Or at least can't do it without being *sure* that it's the Right Thing To Do. (IOW, that there aren't any reasons *not* to do it, and with the common assumption that continuation of life and thwarting of Fate is A Good Thing.) >Ain't it sick? Sick? Nay. Merely alien. And sometimes very sad. O:~< I think that's one of the reasons that Elohim and Free Lilim appeal to me a great deal -- it's the occasional angst-fest potential, when their personal emotions conflict with What They Have To Do, either because of their nature (Elohim) or because of a Geas (Lilim). That, and those little bald guys can be so wonderfully *ruthless* (as can the little greenies). - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 11:57:17 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Strange Question At 6:15 PM +0000 11/22/97, Nathaniel Eliot wrote: >> > I don't know. In the vignette at the beginning of the book, angel >> > fair, and demon hot both seemed to go around their respective >> > superiors to do the celestial wild thing and produce a infink. Since >> > they both got in big trouble, I would assume there was a drive of >> > somekind behind it. >> >> *Someone* has been reading John Constantine: Hellblazer... >> >> _Guys and Dolls_, to be precise. > >I would point out that the demon is hot in temperature only; why >*any* angel would get it on with a Shedim is beyond me... About the only way I could see it is if the Sheddie were a Fallen Kyrio who used to be a sweetie. Or one *really* desperate angel. Or one really *deluded* angel... ("True Love will save him!") Though I suppose that if one had a kinky streak... No, I won't go there. I just won't go there. Not in public. Refer to vap.alt.sex.shedim.drip.drip.drip... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 12:40:42 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Lilith (Re: IN> Angels and Souls (was Angelaki)) At 7:45 PM -0500 11/23/97, Jesse Rooney wrote: >(1). What is Kult? It's another RPG with a religious slant. >(2). I know nothing about Lilith. Was she made from Adam's side as well? >Why is she not mentioned in the Bible? Why is she female? When did her >story frist come to light? I sorta know about her role in the World of >Darkness but neither White Wolf nor SJG explains these questions about her. Lilith is, IIRC, apocraphal. (Did I spell that right?) She shows up in certain Jewish (?) traditions, as a demon of crib death and as Adam's first wife, who cut out on him after having gobs of kids (who were not necessarily human...). At least one of the stories I recall reading says that she got miffed when Adam insisted that the only way to have sex was in the missionary position, with Adam on top, and Lilith said, "Hey, we were both created the same way, and are equals -- so I should get to be on top sometimes." When Adam said "No way, you're the little woman!", Lilith found one of the secret names of God and used it to escape the Garden. Angels went to fetch her back from where she was having a fling with a bunch of demons by the sea (and having great hordes of kids by them), and when she refused to go back, they said they'd kill a hundred of her kids every day that she didn't go back to Adam, and she retorted that if they were going to do *that*, she'd kill off human babies -- unless the children bore a talisman bearing the names of the three (?) angels who'd gone to fetch her. In Nomine canon is going to be a little more vague in some places, and outright different in others. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 13:03:38 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Damned Souls and Demons At 10:36 AM +0000 11/24/97, a superhero named tony wrote: >>>Two doesn't decide where demons come from, but it's not implausible >>>to suggest >>>that Lucifer's come up with a way to turn the damned into demons. >>Nononononononononononono... At least, not in canon. Human >>souls and angel/demon souls are qualitatively different. You can >>come close, with Undead and Saints, but those are still humans, and >>will never get Choir/Band resonances, etc. > >Er, actually, doesn't it state somewhere in Heaven and Hell(not sure >where, my book's in my apartment, and I am in my suck job) that >damned souls CAN become demons, just very rarely(something about how >it's a really bad long term idea for the soul, but souls in Hell >didn't get there by thinking long-term anyway). That is errata, as it is unclear. Demons *TELL* humans that they can become demons. Humans may *BELIEVE* this. Of course, demons *LIE*. The more *likely* explanation for that is that a human's Ethereal Forces (or memory, or whatnot) get stripped away and fed to a demon, thus giving that demon the *memories* of the human (which can produce a reasonable facimile of "Fred the human became a demon and can do demonstuff *and* talk about all those great times we had torturing people"), but the human's motivations and personality are lost. The demon uses and intreprets the memories as it sees fit. The human soul is destroyed. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 11:53:58 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Relievers At 4:08 AM +0200 11/22/98, Ijon Tichy wrote: >Hi. > >The main book (the only one I have) goes into VERY little detail about >relievers. In fact, it seems almost as if SJG don't want us to use 'em. Or >rather, a cheap "buy the next book" scheme? >I shan't deign to ponder that one further. > >Anyhow, some basic questions: > >1. How does an angel communicate with his reliever servant? Is telepathy >available, range/limitations, etc. ? An angel would talk to a reliever just like he'd talk to a human -- verbally. Just because the reliever is in celestial form doesn't mean it can't communicate that way. (Of course, the angel may well have to make a Perception roll to determine where the reliever is, and what it replies. A GM might want to allow automatic perception of a reliever servant.) Some relievers are sent down for specific missions *without* having an immediate superior... Some relievers have vessels assigned to them -- either as familiars ("Familiar" is a designation for a celestial spirit with a vessel, who's got that particular sort of link with another entity. The spirit in the vessel can be angelic *or* demonic) or on their own. It's been suggested that relivers in vessels can do the tedious work of "growing up" a Role from a kid to something for an angel to "step into" later. Some relievers might be given the Ethereal Song of Tongues -- it's not one they *typically* pick up, but the previous page does say they may learn any Song their Superior approves of. >2. Is a reliever visible in the corporeal world? If it has a vessel, certainly. If not, then use the rules for perceiving celestial forms. (p. IN 53.) >Does it have a vessel, so to speak? Some do, some don't. >If not, how can it "pull car keys from between cushions" ? Songs of Motion are useful... >3. Can they have skills? How about equipment? They certainly can have skills. If they're in a vessel, they can also have mundane equipment. A reliever *might* have some kind of celestial artifact, but it's probably no more than a summoning token, so it can call for help from an immediate superior. (There's a thing in Relics, last I looked, called an "Angel's Feather." It's a "pager" that an angel can give to someone. A celestial beeper.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 12:12:46 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Strange Question--A little long(winded?) :) At 12:41 AM -0500 11/23/97, Thomas Davidson wrote: >[...] in the main book, a >precedence does *seem* to exist. That in order for canon to remain >consistent, the implication would seem to be that Lilith *wasn't* human, >nor were Adam and Eve before the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil thing. >Then, too, since Lilith never ate from the TKGE, this would imply that TKGE >was the thing that made Adam and Eve *different*, and incapable of becoming >Angel or Demon--rather, they become boddhisattva (sp?) and Saints. Lilith was certainly a "something different" from the beginning -- "Long before the Fall, Lilith walked the Earth, beautiful and immortal." And on the next page, "Technically, she's not even a demon; she's just Lilith, unique and exquisite, whom no one can ever own." She's a Princess, oh yes, and she holds an infernal Word -- but she's a "Demon" by title only. She's an *incredibly* powerful proto-human/ meta-human/thingy... She can go to the celestial realm if she chooses, and she creates Lilim (who are generally considered demons, though some Lilim insist that they're not, either -- they're *Lilim*), and though she was human once, she's probably closer to a Saint or something *now*... But she may yet have a human soul. Of course, whether this has any meaning after she's been a Princess for so long is a matter that only some few angels of Destiny (and some Elohim of anybody) talk about. Most others figure: "Princess, infernal Word, evil, destroy or run away." Now, whether Adam and Eve are/were *also* immortal, before or after the experiment was ended... Is not known. If their power wasn't boosted, it might not matter whether they would have grown old and died or not -- they wouldn't have the huge reserves of Essence that are required to create new vessels. Lilith presumably *could* do that -- she'd have the raw power -- and so even if she were vessel- killed, she'd just wind up somewhere in Hell in a snit, and create another vessel for herself. Which *implies* that if God or the Seraphim Council wanted to, they could invest J. Random Human Soul with a divine Word (unless it's only the qualitative/"broken" nature of infernal Words that allowed Lucifer to give Freedom to Lilith). Operating from the example of Lilith, this would produce a hyper-Saint, who could generate its own vessel (if vessel-killed, it would wind up in Heaven, in a snit, and be able to create a new vessel), maybe create some kind of celestial spirit (likely one partaking of its own nature?), and have the ability to grant Rites and impose dissonance conditions. Not something I think canon is at all likely to go into, but certainly an *interesting* speculation. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 11:45:00 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Angels and Souls (was Angelaki) At 11:20 PM -0500 11/21/97, John Dye wrote: >The Other Chris wrote: >> >> Earl Wajenberg wrote: >> > What would be meant by "have a soul"? As generally imagined, a soul >> > is an immortal, immaterial consciousness. >> >> The Archangel Beth wrote: >> >Angels *are* souls... They just have bodies occasionally as well, >> >instead of being born into vessels, like humans... Or >> >so I'd say if any kid of mine asked... >> >> Okay, so I guess that's the canonical answer. I'd like people to >> consider another possible view. (#1, this was a non-canon thingy -- I was using my other .sig and forgot to put in the explicit. It's my *personal* belief...) Thing is, why would it be "bad" to think that celestials are souls, same way that humans are souls? (What's the part that goes to the celestial realm after death for humans, anyway? The body/vessel dies, and the consciousness, the motivating force, the "I" is assumed to be what heads off to eternal reward, right?) Now, it *most definitely is* canon that humans and celestials have a *qualitative* difference. A human soul is a human soul, and a celestial is a celestial. Some humans can be changed to become more *like* celestials (Saints, or, in a way, undead), but they still retain their specific type of connection to the Symphony. So, since I, personally, define soul as the "self-willed part" and/or the part that observes and is self-aware... I get the answer that celestials are souls. Angel-souls and demon-souls, and never ever with that specific Symphonic theme that would make them truly a *human* soul. And it's the qualities of the human soul that (according to angelic propaganda) make them worth squabbling over. The ability to choose selfishness and selflessness in ways that celestials can't, without becoming some kind of really warped Renegade. The ability to *change their nature themselves*, *either way*. A selfish human can do an Ebenezer Scrooge, and you don't need an Archangel helping it along. A selfless human can turn into a force of evil. And they do it *themselves*, without twisting their Forces, their essential nature. They don't pay the price for Free Will that demons do. And they're capable of greater evils and greater goods, and with, in many ways, more shining motivations. If an angel sacrifices itself for others, in many ways, it's only following its nature. If a human does it... It means *more*, because it was chosen perhaps even *in spite* of its nature. (I think that toddlers can be the most selfish creatures in creation... Balseraphs probably have *nothing* on 'em...) (The demons say that humans are squabbled over just 'cause humans can be bullied around and so are easier to harvest Essence from... Or some of them do. The day you get demons agreeing in mass numbers about things other than "If you go against a Prince, it's evolution in action"...) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 13:23:17 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> An Awful Noise in the Name of the Lord (was Re: Achmetha) At 11:39 AM -0500 11/23/97, David Wood wrote: >The farthest away the good ones can be and still automatically detect it >is 1800*6.1 = 10980 miles ...and the Earth is only 8,000 miles in >diameter as the crow burrows (or swims through that molten part in the >middle). Since it's a Celestial sound, it wouldn't be slowed down by >earth, would it? [Canon Request] That's what I'd rule -- celestial noise can cross the Earth's core. (And radiate out into space, for that matter, so if there are any celestials on the moon...) >Don't count on many Celestials spending Essence during this time, though; >where in the book it says that "When several Symphony-changing actions >take place together, or nearly together, in space and time, treat each >one as a new event that includes all the preceding ones." (p. 55) The >house rule I use in this case is that the "in time" part is one quarter >of the value of the latest disturbance in minutes. So someone spends 3 >Essence near ground zero within 7.5 hours, and up goes an echo with a >value of 1803. Repeat above calculations. I haven't decided on a good >Rule of Thumb for the "space" part; I'm open to suggestions. [Canon >Request] I think it's whatever the GM and players think is reasonable. Standing in the rubble itself and spending Essence would be a *Bad Idea*. Even being a few blocks away might be dangerous, if you assume that it's the blast radius that's the "area" -- remember, every window that breaks because of that explosion gets counted into the noise... (Of course, that Essence-spending would probably read as, "somebody boosted a skill roll by 3, in the area of this mass disaster, and set off more jangles, but it's nothing to get excited about" for those who know everything but naming names.) >Okay, let's assume that it's a small yield device, and that it no more >than decimates the population. If it's a fairly large city, somewhere >around 1 million people, the death toll would be around 100,000 people >alone. Call it 150,000 for deaths and forces, and that says nothing of >animals (they have forces too) and buildings (property damage disturbs >the Symphony too). The exact size of the Disturbance and the ranges they >can be heard at (as well as the raging horizontal poopystorm that would >spring up as a result of it) are left as an exercise to the reader. > >[Canon Request] Are there any Celestials on the moon? [Canon answer] Do you want there to be? *hem* So far, that question has not come up, and therefore it will probably be a case of telling your celestials "You're not cleared for that information." A celestial spirit who didn't have a vessel could probably hang around there (ooooo! Vapulan imps and gremlins, plus Lightning relievers, as listening stations!), but a celestial who had a vessel would have difficulty -- they can only stay in celestial form for a limited duration... At 4:10 PM +0000 11/23/97, Nathaniel Eliot wrote: >[Canon Request] Are there any Celestials on Alpha Centauri? >;-) Well, one of these days I'll put up my IOU In Nomine characters... One of them *seems* to be an Elohite Outcast of Creation. He's really a full Elohite. With a humanoid alien vessel. (John Smith, from GURPS IOU.) Who was told by Eli to "stay put for a while"... [Redneck writes] >That's the thing, I couldn't find a reference anywhere to how long it takes >a disturbance to fade or not. My impression from the writeup in the IN >Rulebook was it tends to fade pretty quickly- otherwise you'd get more than >one shot to Percieve it. Again, I think it's a GM ruling. I might give it something based on minutes and the level of the disturbance... (At a one-for-one, a Superior showing up celestially would leave the Symphony "delicate" for 30 minutes; for a minutes = disturbance*2, it would be an hour, etc. Whatever the GM feels is right.) I'll remember to bring this up sometime... At 10:50 PM -0500 11/23/97, David Wood wrote: >The echo can automatically be picked up automatically by the average >celestial at approximately 3.75x10^9 x 6.39x10^6 = 23.97x10^15 = 23.97 >QUADRILLION miles. Double that for the really good ones. > >[Canon Question] How big is the freakin' UNIVERSE? You people are being *mean* to me! I don't have the Hawkings book with me. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 14:10:59 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: IN> The 144,000 Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > Which *implies* that if God or the Seraphim Council wanted to, they > could invest J. Random Human Soul with a divine Word (unless it's > only the qualitative/"broken" nature of infernal Words that allowed > Lucifer to give Freedom to Lilith). Operating from the example of > Lilith, this would produce a hyper-Saint, who could generate its own > vessel (if vessel-killed, it would wind up in Heaven, in a snit, and > be able to create a new vessel), maybe create some kind of celestial > spirit (likely one partaking of its own nature?), and have the ability > to grant Rites and impose dissonance conditions. > > Not something I think canon is at all likely to go into, but certainly > an *interesting* speculation. Okay, then I'll speculate. First, I'll note that high-powered Saints is PERFECTLY compatible with the attitude toward saints taken in all religions that use sainthood. Don't like any of the Archangels for a boss? Thumb through the Calendar of Saints and go shopping, as long as your GM is willing to do the background work. Saints come in a HUGE variety. A favorite would probably by St. Jude, patron of lost causes... On a more seasonal note, how about St. Nicholas? A perfectly real saint, who just happens to have been swept up in the folklore and hype around Christmas. Those aren't elves at the North Pole; they're relievers. Second, this is a good opportunity to bring up an idea I played with over the holiday weekend. The book of Revelation mentions a special cadre of saints, notable for being the celestial cavalry that rides down out of the clouds with Christ at the Second Coming. They are known by their number which is 144,000. Now, short of Armageddon, a GM might add interest or color to a game involving Saints by distinguishing certain saints as members of the 144K. These might be particularly heavy-duty, NPC saints. James Bond saints, Green Beret saints, whathave you. Perhaps the government of Heaven is bicameral and the 144,000 form a "House of Commons" or "House of Representatives" to the Seraphim Council's "Senate" or "House of Lords." High-powered saints give a whole alternate hierarchy to Heaven for the GM who likes to roll their own. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 14:22:23 -0500 (EST) From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: IN> Demon Prince voices... I hate to admit this, but every time I see a quote from Haagenti, I hear Sweetums (from the Muppets) saying it. This led me to consider who else could voice/play the other Princes. The list I've got so far is incredibly silly, in no particular order, and potentially indefensible: Lucifer Tim Curry Kobal Jim Carey Lillith (Jessica Rabbit) (I wish I could remember the actress) Kronos Jack Nicholson Asmodeus Kevin Costner Beleth Sigorney Weaver Valefor Keanu Reeves Nybbas Robin Williams Haagenti (Sweetums)/Frank Oz Baal Arnold Schwartzenegger Belial Michael Jackson }:> Saminga Clint Eastwood Mark ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 20:44:47 -0600 (CST) From: Shadowcat Subject: IN> Christmas in Heaven Greetings all. This weekend Fran asked me a question that I thought that you all would appreciate. What do the various Archangels do for Christmas? Shadowcat All cats may look upon a king. No comment on the Queen ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 14:39:21 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Haagenti and Belial At 11:47 PM -0500 11/25/97, Ehrbar wrote: >In the Marches, it says " >Haagenti [about Belial]: Fire's hungry like me, right? It >consumes almost as fast as I do. And fire's good for cooking >-- when there's time to really enjoy your meal. So I guess >he's okay." > >However, in the main In Nomine rulebook, Haagenti is listed >as "Hostile" to Belial, and Belial is listed as "Hostile" >to Haagenti. > >So, in Canon, which way is it? Non-canonly, I already plan >to go with the original rulebook, because that plays into >the extended writeup I'm giving Haagenti. Hmmmmm.... I'd probably add: "So I guess he's okay -- for a *STOVE*!" as a quickie fix. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 20:55:43 -0600 (CST) From: Shadowcat Subject: IN> Thermodynamics of Hell (fwd) Thought you all might appreciate this. Cat All cats may look upon a king. No comment on the Queen ;-) - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 13:02:59 -0600 (CST) From: Fran Juergensmeyer To: Elizabeth Juergensmeyer , Margaret Juergensmeyer , Sandy Desio , John Ickes Subject: Thermodynamics of Hell (fwd) Hi All! Unfortunately, Judson professors can't get away with things like this. Certainly Judson students better not try that final assumption! Why couldn't Mr. Connell ask interesting questions like this though? Fran - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- A thermodynamics professor had written a take home exam for his graduate students. It had one question: "Is hell exothermic or endothermic? Support your answer with a proof." Most of the students wrote proofs of their beliefs using Boyle's Law or some variant. One student, however wrote the following: First, we postulate that if souls exist, then they must have some mass. If they do, then a mole of souls can also have a mass. So, at what rate are souls moving into hell and at what rate are souls leaving? I think that we can safely assume that once a soul gets to hell, it will not leave. Therefore, no souls are leaving. As for souls entering hell, lets look at the different religions that exist in the world today. Some of these religions state that if you are not a member of their religion, you will go to hell. Since there are more than one of these religions and people do not belong to more than one religion, we can project that all people and all souls go to hell. With birth and death rates as they are, we can expect the number of souls in hell to increase exponentially. Now, we look at the rate of change in volume in hell. Boyle's Law states that in order for the temperature and pressure in hell to stay the same, the ratio of the mass of souls and volume needs to stay constant. #1: So, if hell is expanding at a slower rate than the rate at which souls enter hell, then the temperature and pressure in hell will increase until all hell breaks loose, meaning that hell is exothermic. #2: Of course, if hell is expanding at a rate faster than the increase of souls in hell, then the temperature and pressure will drop until hell freezes over, meaning that hell is endothermic. So which is it? If we accept the postulate given me by Theresa Banyan during Freshman year "that it will be a cold night in hell before I sleep with you," and take into account the fact that I still have not succeeded in having sexual relations with her, then #2 cannot be true. Therefore, hell is exothermic. This student got the only A. ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #493 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.