From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sun Dec 14 20:06:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA05107 for ; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 20:06:14 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id TAA03533 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 19:57:40 -0600 Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 19:57:40 -0600 Message-Id: <199712150157.TAA03533@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #513 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Sunday, December 14 1997 Volume 01 : Number 513 In this digest: IN> IN Movie 5 : Trailer Re: IN> Kyriotates and Vessels Re: IN> Other Vessel Questions IN> Age, Body Hits Re: IN> Age, Body Hits RE: IN> I need advice and answers IN> In Anime Movie Trailer IN> Kyriotates and Vessels Re: IN> Other Vessel Questions Re: IN> Other Vessel Questions Re: IN> Other Vessel Questions Re: IN> Other Vessel Questions IN> The Pool of Knowledge Re: IN> Other Vessel Questions IN> Greetings ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 03:29:10 GMT From: maya@tcp.co.uk (GR Cogman) Subject: IN> IN Movie 5 : Trailer So I got the bug again. So sue me. - --- IN NOMINE MOVIE 5 : TRAILERS - ---------------------------- Narrator: Tania was an ordinary girl... Tania, an eighteen-year-old with dark hair and wide glasses, takes notes as part of a college class. She frowns at the paper. Narrator: ... with ordinary hobbies ... Tania sits at the corner of an Arts and Crafts session in an open courtyard, somewhere on what is clearly college grounds, doing some embroidery work. There's an open satchel at her feet with sewing stuff poking out of it. Narrator: ... and an ordinary family ... Tania walks into a living room. Two young men are lounging on chairs, watching the television. One calls, "Tidy the kitchen up, sis, will you?" Narrator: ... until something extraordinary happened. Tania, walking in the crowded street, her satchel over one shoulder. Mysterious Man staggers up to her, collapsing in her arms. Knife in his back becomes obvious. Tania opens her mouth to scream. Camera zeroes in on Glittery Thing falling, unobserved, from dead man's hand into her open satchel, and getting lost in a pile of embroidery stuff. Tania staggers back as dead man tumbles to the ground: there is a swirl of SFX as the body dissolves into a blazing gust of wind. Narrator: Suddenly, she has all sorts of new friends. A man in black leather jacket and jeans (with shadow of six Balseraphic wings), and a woman in neat business suit (with shadow of six Seraphic wings), glare at each other over the head of an embroidering and inattentive Tania. Narrator: And everybody's looking for something... Slick office in Shal-Mari. A lounging bat-winged Kobal informs a human-formed Balseraph in the same black leather jacket, "Trust me. It's the ultimate punchline." Humming laboratory in the Halls of Invention. A female human-formed Seraph faces Jean across a desk. Jean, while tapping on a computer keyboard, "You know how important it is. Our people need it back." Narrator: ... and getting into bad company. Balseraph, Seraph, and Tania outside a disco. Seraph is clearly very uncomfortable in her miniskirt and blouse. Balseraph, "Looking good." Seraph, scowling, "Feeling mean." Several Djinns in Black, being organised by a better-dressed man in dark glasses and military bearing (played by Patrick Stewart). Military type, "She's got it." A Djinn, "Got what?" Military type, "You aren't cleared for that. Go get her." Three Malakim, perching on a roof. One scans the area beneath with binoculars. Second Malakim, "So we need to get her before they do?" Malakim with binoculars, "You got it." Narrator: Ignorance is bliss, they say... Tania, to her two companions, who are looking daggers at each other, over a student lunch, "So then there was this really _gorgeous_ guy with dark hair and a sword, and he was arguing with this really greedy _slob_ who was, like, eating everything, and then later there was this fire going on and I saw this woman who said that I wasn't, like, cruel, and it's been a really weird morning. How about you two?" Tania, Balseraph, and Seraph in an sewing shop, in the middle of a gun battle. She's wide-eyed and in shock: the Seraph holds her behind the cover of a fabric-rack while the Balseraph points a handgun round the corner. Tania, "They shot me! Someone tried to shoot me!" Tania, coming at a run round the corner of a building, and waving at the Balseraph and Seraph, "There's some sort of medieval arms demonstration! They're having this swordfight..." The sound of grenades comes from round the corner, and she is haloed by the flames of a distant explosion. Tania, blinking, "... I think." Narrator: ... and there are some things that people just don't want to know... Balseraph and Seraph, far too close to each other, standing in the halo of a streetlight on a deserted road. Balseraph, "It could mean war." Seraph, "It could mean Armageddon." Tania, looking between the Balseraph and Seraph and blinking. "Yes, there was this guy who died... but he didn't give me anything, no. Why?" Balseraph and Seraph, under the streetlight again, locked in a kiss. Narrator: ... but all good things come to an end. Car chase. Tania in the front of the car, prodding the pedals nervously, while the Balseraph and Seraph bounce around in the back. Other sleek cars zoom by, and gunfire splinters a side window. Seraph, screaming, "Brake! Brake!" Tania, "Which pedal is that one again?" Balseraph, muttering, "This _isn't_ funny." Night, in Tania's sitting room. She's sitting on a chair, eyes red, and her brother stands in the doorway, SFX showing that he's currently being Shedite-ridden. Brother, "Obviously, you're insane." Tania sits in the student cafeteria, opposite from a woman who keeps on toying with the bracelet on her wrist. Woman, "So, we'll get rid of all this trouble, and in return you just promise to give it to us." Tania, "Give you _what_?" Woman, "Don't play the innocent. It's too late for that." Narrator: And time's running out. Montage of battling angels and demons and shafts of fire and acid in the student cafeteria. Tania standing in a rising lift. A large Djinn in Black on either side holds her shoulders. She isn't carrying her embroidery satchel, for once. Balseraph, leaning over Seraph's shoulder as she works at a computer, "So how are you going to justify _this_ bit of cooperation to your Boss, mm?" Seraph, frowning at the computer screen, "I put you on my expenses under Miscellaneous." Tania, sitting with her hands twisted together, in a boardroom with a large window covering one whole side of the room. Military type, sitting at the other end of the table, "You've got till sunset, girl. After that - my Prince comes to collect it." Balseraph works slide on gun, and holsters it. He then performs precisely the same action with a fountain pen. Balseraph, smirking, "I don't get mad. I get _funny_." Narrator: So it's time for all good Celestials to stand up... The room-long window of the boardroom explodes inwards as Malakite-types come swinging in. Tania upturns her embroidery satchel. Items tumble out of it in slow motion. The Balseraph and Seraph, both haloed in strange lights (cue SFX) and with hands raised in Song-like gestures, confront something _very_ big and unpleasant beginning to emerge from the stormy sky. (one of Baal's monster-forms, cue _a lot of_ SFX) Tania's hand closes around The Glittery Thing. Narrator: ... and be counted. Tania looks between the Balseraph and Seraph, all three sitting in her room. "So what's this Triad thing, anyway?" [End trailer with title of movie...] - --- Maya, Elohim of Eli in service to Blandine maya@tcp.co.uk - -- "There are those who say that wizards are subject to temptations and addictions beyond the understanding of ordinary men: the addiction to shape-changing, or to meditation under the influence of certain herbs and conditions of the stars; the obsession with knowledge, and the development of power. Yet this is not so. Temptation is temptation, obsession is obsession, and choice is choice." - Isar Chelladan, Precepts of Wizardry. -- "Dog Wizard", Barbara Hambly. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 23:26:25 -0700 (MST) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> Kyriotates and Vessels > > that if they CAN take over Vessels, using CorpF to support it actually > > makes a lot more sense than anything else. With a human or animal, they > > have to `fill in' the whole thing; with a Vessel, they shouldn't have to > I would like to point out at this point that the mind and soul of > animal/human hosts aren't there either when a Kyriotate is in possession. No, but a Vessel's nature is a purely corporeal manifestation, whereas a symphonic creature is considerably more..holistic. It's alright; I thought this was a pretty big problem, but I really DO seem to be the only one with it, so..*shrug* > Anyway, it doesn't say anywhere that Kyriotates have to be in more than > one place at once, just that they can be. It's like saying Seraphs have to > be using their resonance for truth all the time, if you ask me. They do; Seraphs -can't- lie. It's dissonant for them, because their Resonance is for truth. "A Kyriotate's Resonance is for multiplicity." It's one of the first things it says about them. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 02:53:26 -0500 (EST) From: Pee Kitty Subject: Re: IN> Other Vessel Questions On Sat, 13 Dec 1997, Perry M. Lloyd wrote: > Hey, I know I don't read all the messages from the list, so if this has > been hammered to death already, please don't hammer me. > > My question is: > > When a celestial is in a Vessel, are they essentially a human with > super-powers, or a super-natural being borrowing a body? > > For instance, can an Angel not be affected by a kick to the balls? The Stunning rules suggest strongly that vessels CAN be affected by "system shock" and the like. I'd say that they do not actually feel PAIN, but severe amounts of physical trauma can be more than their frail flesh-n-blood vessels can handle. A kick to the balls? Not in my game; the celestial would just grin. > Can they ignore pain from wounds, would a Will roll suffice? I'd say pain isn't an issue unless it is enough to actually INCAPACITATE the nervous system (i.e., stunning). When in doubt, a Will roll should suffice fine. > Do they have "pressure points"? Doubt it. > Are they just as vulnearable as humans to wrist-locks, etc.? To the lock, yes, and to getting their wrists broken. > What is the body *made* of? Is is soul-stuff or they actually have the >organs? > Why bother with organs if you don't need them? It seems that they have organs...otherwise an X-Ray would show them up. > Must the body operate using "muscle tissue" and a "nervous system" >which can be > both affected severely by electric current? Yes. IMO. > How much control do they have over their Vessel? Does it affect them? > Ex. "Chargin's Vessel was becoming aroused... And in front of a member of > the Seraphim Council..." > > Ex. "Chargin pumped more adrenaline into his Vessel's blood-stream. He was > going to need it." > > Ex. "Chargin set up blockers in the brain of his vessel, preventing the > endorphins from being reabsorbed into the cells. Tonight was going to > be a -good- night." No to all 3 examples, in my game. > I guess, just how much seperation is there between a celestial and her Vessel? > Is it a body, like "their" body, or one their Superior has loaned them, to > tool around in for a while? It's a tool. Corporeal combat is a breeze...it's Celestial combat where the PAIN kicks in. Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian (Married to Rev. Unibomber on 11/15/96 - be jealous ;) Meow! The Devil went down / to Newport town He brought his red surfboard / to race against the Lord It was totally rocking... totally rocking... "The Devil Went Down to Newport", Mono Puff ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 19:54:47 +0200 From: "Lassi Seppala" Subject: IN> Age, Body Hits Perhaps you can help me with these: - -How old celestial is considered to be middle-aged? - -When a kyriotate or a shedim is possessing a mortal host does he use his or the host's strength and corporeal forces for calculating body hits? Thanks. Lassi Seppala lseppala@dlc.fi ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 04:42:22 -0500 (EST) From: Pee Kitty Subject: Re: IN> Age, Body Hits On Sat, 13 Dec 1997, Lassi Seppala wrote: > Perhaps you can help me with these: > -How old celestial is considered to be middle-aged? Um... they can live forever. What's half of infinity? :) > -When a kyriotate or a shedim is possessing a mortal host does he use his or > the host's strength and corporeal forces for calculating body hits? Treat the host as a Vessel; the level of the Vessel is the host's Corporeal Forces. Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian (Married to Rev. Unibomber on 11/15/96 - be jealous ;) Meow! The Devil went down / to Newport town He brought his red surfboard / to race against the Lord It was totally rocking... totally rocking... "The Devil Went Down to Newport", Mono Puff ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 04:54:09 EST From: "Perry M. Lloyd" Subject: RE: IN> I need advice and answers >Hi. I'm new to In Nomine and I need some advice and answers. > >1) I'd like to know a good way to introduce In Nomine's Universe to >newplayers. Me, I'd run either an all soldiers campaign (which I'm doing PBeM) or an all fledgeling (sp?) angels/demons campaign. "Welcome to existance, here's your heart, there's humanity and here's what we all about." >2) Why is Coprporeal/Ethereal/Celestial Forces added to hand-to-hand combat >skills but not to ranged weapon skills or non-combat skills? Nani? What? Looks like Perry "what ruls?" Lloyd missed something again... Oh, I see, in the Combat Ruls section. Well, *that's* interesting... Lemme check the Errata on the web-page... (http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/errata/) - ----------- P. 62. In the second paragraph under Corporeal Combat, change the second sentence to ``A weapon attack adds the weapon skill as well.'' Precision-based attacks use Precision instead of Strength. Under Physical Healing, demons regenerate a hit point at sunset. P. 63. In the second paragraph under Ethereal Combat, change the fourth sentence to ``An ethereal weapon attack adds the weapon skill as well.'' P. 64 In the fourth paragraph under Celestial Combat, change the second sentence to ``A celestial weapon attack adds the weapon skill as well.'' - ----------- Well, dang, that's cute. Seems that roll to strike is: C/E/C Forces + S/I/W + Skill That gives my demon character a roll to strike of: 13/10/16 Except that the combat ruls have been given an over-haul I believe and my GM isn't using those ruls anyway. :) [If anyone out there knows the "new" combat system, if there is one PLEASE send it to me: ] Why not to other skills? Because Strength, Int, and Will represent your characters raw "prowess" in that particular realm, which I read to mean raw "efficacy". Of course, that doesn't really answer your question... 'dunno. >3) It seems a little unrealistic and very uncinematic (Is that the right way >to say it? Well you got the point, I hope) that you can only attack once in >a five second round. Any comments about that? I agree and I say, screw 'em. No point in using a rul you don't like. Me, I don't like a number of the ruls, so I just change 'em till they make sense to me. (But that doesn't mean that I don't like to know the ruls, otherwise you don't know when you're breaking them.) My answer is, the "five second rul" is in the Advanced combat section, which is optional. And, like I said, I *think* the whole combat system had an over-haul, but I'm not sure. (I could be totally wrong.) >Lassi Seppala >lseppala@dlc.fi - -Perry Perry M. Lloyd "I could not speak, I could not fly. I fell down in that place, I saw the monster's horrid eye Come leering in my face!" -Lewis Carrol (from "Horrors"-1850) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 04:57:34 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> In Anime Movie Trailer >>>IN NOMINE: LOVELY ANGELS OF THE WIND<<< Aaeeeeeiiiiiiiiii!!!!!! LOL! - -David (who thinks they're actually really cute Calabim) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 04:57:41 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Kyriotates and Vessels >>>As I've noted, it taking up all their Forces is one of the major conceptual problems I have with it; that's NOT something Kyrios are supposed to be doing.<<< Which is an excellent way to limit such behavior -- if they spend too much time investing all their Forces in one host, they are acting more Shedite-like than Kyriotate-like; begin inflicting dissonance. >>>And as to noisy, I'll repeat; with a tether or a Body Bag, you don't even have the noise problem. And if you DO have the noise problem, you have a +9 disturbanace about every 3-4 days. Oooh. If you don't have a tether, five minutes in a car will take you out of hearing distance from any city..only if the Kyrio's possession expires at a -really- bad time is this going to be any problem at all, and if it does..it just means they're back to snagging hosts like they ought to be, not that anyone's actually disadvantaged by it.<<< Well, this applies to ALL "celestial things you can't do casually because it makes a big noise". Disturbance does not prevent celestials from doing things that make a lot of noise if they really want to, and have planned a way to escape the repercussions. It does prevent them from doing those things often and wherever they feel like it. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 05:16:09 EST From: "Perry M. Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Other Vessel Questions Pee Kitty wrote: >On Sat, 13 Dec 1997, Perry M. Lloyd wrote: >> When a celestial is in a Vessel, are they essentially a human with >> super-powers, or a super-natural being borrowing a body? >> >> For instance, can an Angel not be affected by a kick to the balls? > >The Stunning rules suggest strongly that vessels CAN be affected by >"system shock" and the like. I'd say that they do not actually feel PAIN, >but severe amounts of physical trauma can be more than their frail >flesh-n-blood vessels can handle. A kick to the balls? Not in my game; the >celestial would just grin. >> Can they ignore pain from wounds, would a Will roll suffice? > >I'd say pain isn't an issue unless it is enough to actually INCAPACITATE >the nervous system (i.e., stunning). When in doubt, a Will roll should >suffice fine. >> Must the body operate using "muscle tissue" and a "nervous system" >>which can be >> both affected severely by electric current? > >Yes. IMO. That would make sense, since a car won't work is all of its parts are all frozen up. >> Do they have "pressure points"? > >Doubt it. Hmmm... This would be in line with the lack of pain. >> Are they just as vulnearable as humans to wrist-locks, etc.? > >To the lock, yes, and to getting their wrists broken. The flesh is frail its own way. >> What is the body *made* of? Is is soul-stuff or they actually have the >>organs? >> Why bother with organs if you don't need them? > >It seems that they have organs...otherwise an X-Ray would show them up. Do you mean "wouldn't" show them up? >> I guess, just how much seperation is there between a celestial and her Vessel? >> Is it a body, like "their" body, or one their Superior has loaned them, to >> tool around in for a while? > >It's a tool. Corporeal combat is a breeze...it's Celestial combat where >the PAIN kicks in. :) Nothing like good old Celestial combat to really put the fear into ya. I've been wondering about combat between celestials on the corporeal realm. Seems to be that they can cause pain to each other, I site pg 99 in the main text, where the Malakh is beating the Balseraph. But, this could be explained by the Malakh's supernatural strength (except that Str plays no role in amount of damage done with each blow, merely in frequency of times damage is actually done - but I'm not bitter). - -Perry Perry M. Lloyd "I could not speak, I could not fly. I fell down in that place, I saw the monster's horrid eye Come leering in my face!" -Lewis Carrol (from "Horrors"-1850) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 10:55:48 -0600 (CST) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> Other Vessel Questions > Pee Kitty wrote: > >>On Sat, 13 Dec 1997, Perry M. Lloyd wrote: >>> When a celestial is in a Vessel, are they essentially a human with >>> super-powers, or a super-natural being borrowing a body? And more spillover from the DVPBEM comes in... >>> For instance, can an Angel not be affected by a kick to the balls? >> >>The Stunning rules suggest strongly that vessels CAN be affected by >>"system shock" and the like. I'd say that they do not actually feel PAIN, >>but severe amounts of physical trauma can be more than their frail >>flesh-n-blood vessels can handle. A kick to the balls? Not in my game; the >>celestial would just grin. > > A kick to the groin would inspire a flinch, but unless your boots have steel spikes on them (or the target has a frail Vessel) it wouldn't stun. >>> Can they ignore pain from wounds, would a Will roll suffice? >> >>I'd say pain isn't an issue unless it is enough to actually INCAPACITATE >>the nervous system (i.e., stunning). When in doubt, a Will roll should >>suffice fine. And I ruled differently. Vessels are still flesh, even if they are Essence-wrought flesh. They require air and a minimum of care, they bleed and heal as other flesh, and the one little tiny bit of maybe-canon which even comes close to the subject- 'A Dark Dream'- shows a demon flinching in pain during a fight. Perry's character had a through-and-through hole through his shoulder, scratches from jumping through a window, and a broken hand from smashing through a shatterproof glass car window. I ruled that he would definitely be in pain, and under the circumstances would be hampered by that pain. As for stunning damage, it's more than just the body playing out- if that was the case, the body would remain incapacitated longer than the mind. I play it as a surge of pain which temporarily overwhelms the mental processes. >>> Must the body operate using "muscle tissue" and a "nervous system" >>>which can be >>> both affected severely by electric current? >> >>Yes. IMO. > >That would make sense, since a car won't work is all of its parts are >all frozen up. > >>> Do they have "pressure points"? >> >>Doubt it. I would say yes, but they may or may not be the same as humans. Anybody want to vivisect a 6-Corpforce Malakite to find out? }:-{D >>> What is the body *made* of? Is is soul-stuff or they actually have the >>>organs? >>> Why bother with organs if you don't need them? >> >>It seems that they have organs...otherwise an X-Ray would show them up. > >Do you mean "wouldn't" show them up? Would show them up as non-human. If they're 100% appearing as human, they -would- have pressure points, BTW. >>> I guess, just how much seperation is there between a celestial and her Vessel? >>> Is it a body, like "their" body, or one their Superior has loaned them, to >>> tool around in for a while? >> >>It's a tool. Corporeal combat is a breeze...it's Celestial combat where >>the PAIN kicks in. Again, I disagree. A Vessel is a body for the Celestial's soul to ride around in on Earth. It's a part of them, and although the relationship is different from that between a human's soul and body, it's not at all like a human and their car. > >I've been wondering about combat between celestials on the corporeal >realm. Seems to be that they can cause pain to each other, I site pg 99 >in the main text, where the Malakh is beating the Balseraph. But, this >could be explained by the Malakh's supernatural strength (except that Str >plays no role in amount of damage done with each blow, merely in frequency >of times damage is actually done - but I'm not bitter). That's a reference I hadn't seen. Also, it's a good point- if pain isn't an issue for a Celestial in a Vessel, what's the point of torture in questioning? From a RP standpoint, it eliminates a major plot tool- and character opportunity. Redneck Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | "It's Christmas in Heaven, http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | there's great shows on TV; c/o White Lightning Productions | the Sound of Music twice an hour http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | and Jaws I, II and III." Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- A Nybbas Christmas http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 14:38:28 EST From: "Perry M. Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Other Vessel Questions Redneck wrote: >> Pee Kitty wrote: >> >>>On Sat, 13 Dec 1997, Perry M. Lloyd wrote: >>>> When a celestial is in a Vessel, are they essentially a human with >>>> super-powers, or a super-natural being borrowing a body? > >And more spillover from the DVPBEM comes in... Hey now, just because you're in part the inspiration, don't try and take all the credit. >;;;) >>>> For instance, can an Angel not be affected by a kick to the balls? >>> >>>The Stunning rules suggest strongly that vessels CAN be affected by >>>"system shock" and the like. I'd say that they do not actually feel PAIN, >>>but severe amounts of physical trauma can be more than their frail >>>flesh-n-blood vessels can handle. A kick to the balls? Not in my game; the >>>celestial would just grin. >> >> > >A kick to the groin would inspire a flinch, but unless your boots have steel >spikes on them (or the target has a frail Vessel) it wouldn't stun. > >>>> Can they ignore pain from wounds, would a Will roll suffice? >>> >>>I'd say pain isn't an issue unless it is enough to actually INCAPACITATE >>the nervous system (i.e., stunning). When in doubt, a Will roll should >>>suffice fine. > >And I ruled differently. It's all good, every GM does her own thing. (Or his own thing...) >Vessels are still flesh, even if they are Essence-wrought flesh. They >require air and a minimum of care, they bleed and heal as other flesh, and >the one little tiny bit of maybe-canon which even comes close to the >subject- 'A Dark Dream'- shows a demon flinching in pain during a fight. > >Perry's character had a through-and-through hole through his shoulder, >scratches from jumping through a window, and a broken hand from smashing >through a shatterproof glass car window. I ruled that he would definitely be >in pain, and under the circumstances would be hampered by that pain. > >As for stunning damage, it's more than just the body playing out- if that >was the case, the body would remain incapacitated longer than the mind. I >play it as a surge of pain which temporarily overwhelms the mental processes. > >>>> Must the body operate using "muscle tissue" and a "nervous system" >>>>which can be >>>> both affected severely by electric current? >> >>> >>>Yes. IMO. >> >>That would make sense, since a car won't work is all of its parts are >>all frozen up. >> >>>> Do they have "pressure points"? >>> >>>Doubt it. > >I would say yes, but they may or may not be the same as humans. Anybody want >to vivisect a 6-Corpforce Malakite to find out? }:-{D Heh, and no way for the player to know. That's ok, I'm sure the celestial would. >>>> What is the body *made* of? Is is soul-stuff or they actually have the >>>>organs? >>>> Why bother with organs if you don't need them? >>> >>>It seems that they have organs...otherwise an X-Ray would show them up. >> >> >>Do you mean "wouldn't" show them up? > >Would show them up as non-human. A classic case of "name the pronoun"... I read THEM to represent the organs, since organs is the last object. Or something, I'm not an English major. I know a few English majors, but I'm not one of them. >>>> I guess, just how much seperation is there between a celestial and her >Vessel? >>>> Is it a body, like "their" body, or one their Superior has loaned them, to >>>> tool around in for a while? >>> >>>It's a tool. Corporeal combat is a breeze...it's Celestial combat where >>>the PAIN kicks in. > >Again, I disagree. A Vessel is a body for the Celestial's soul to ride >around in on Earth. It's a part of them, and although the relationship is >different from that between a human's soul and body, it's not at all like a >human and their car. Which is exactly why I've asked this question. I'm interested in how GM's are ruling out there in Gamer-Land. [OOC: "Yeah! GM's Rul!"] There is no truth, even Canon isn't truth, IMHO... >> >>I've been wondering about combat between celestials on the corporeal >>realm. Seems to be that they can cause pain to each other, I site pg 99 >>in the main text, where the Malakh is beating the Balseraph. But, this >>could be explained by the Malakh's supernatural strength. > >That's a reference I hadn't seen. :) Cool, des-ne? >Also, it's a good point- if pain isn't an issue for a Celestial in a Vessel, >what's the point of torture in questioning? From a RP standpoint, it >eliminates a major plot tool- and character opportunity. AND opens up a huge whole for crunchies to exploit. "Yes, that right, I've killed over twenty angels single-handedly." "Really, and how's that farmer Brown?" "Got me right here a screamer - broadcasts a noise so powerful that it reduces 'em to quivering pools of pain. Then, I just walk right up to 'em and blow 'em away. If you cut the head off, they die right quick." Yes, yes, I know the celestial can foresee this and wear ear plugs, that's not the point. So, I'd say that this leaves a big hole for Soldiers and mundanes to exploit... Unless pain *can* be only delivered by a being of high enough Strength. If that demon with 10 Str hits you, it's gonna hurt. With Automatic Success (ignore this bit) and a Fighting of /1, the demon has a to-hit of 10 +4 +1 (assuming Corp forces of 4) = 15, giving a +3 to Power. Wow, that's sweet. Every additional point of Fighting adds +1 Power, making these Celestials veritable damage machines... Here crunchie, crunchie, crunchie... Let's see, human delivers, what... Str 4, Corp Forces 2, fighting/3 = 2+4+3= 9. Not a bad to-hit roll, all things considered. - -Perry Perry M. Lloyd "I could not speak, I could not fly. I fell down in that place, I saw the monster's horrid eye Come leering in my face!" -Lewis Carrol (from "Horrors"-1850) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 14:13:31 -0600 (CST) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> Other Vessel Questions >>>>> Do they have "pressure points"? >>>> >>>>Doubt it. >> >>I would say yes, but they may or may not be the same as humans. Anybody want >>to vivisect a 6-Corpforce Malakite to find out? }:-{D > >Heh, and no way for the player to know. That's ok, I'm sure the celestial >would. Mmmmmaybe, mmmmmmaybe not. If a character wants to try for a combat pressure point, I'd send to roll against Medicine, or Fighting based off Precision instead of Strength or Will... > >>>>> I guess, just how much seperation is there between a celestial and her >>Vessel? >>>>> Is it a body, like "their" body, or one their Superior has loaned >them, to >>>>> tool around in for a while? >>>> >>>>It's a tool. Corporeal combat is a breeze...it's Celestial combat where >>>>the PAIN kicks in. >> >>Again, I disagree. A Vessel is a body for the Celestial's soul to ride >>around in on Earth. It's a part of them, and although the relationship is >>different from that between a human's soul and body, it's not at all like a >>human and their car. > >Which is exactly why I've asked this question. I'm interested in how >GM's are ruling out there in Gamer-Land. [OOC: "Yeah! GM's Rul!"] >There is no truth, even Canon isn't truth, IMHO... I've never subscribed to the Heisenberg Concept of Truth. On the practical level, there -is- a Truth for every situation- and that truth is defined by the GM, with Canon as a starting point to provide a level playing field for all involved. >>Also, it's a good point- if pain isn't an issue for a Celestial in a Vessel, >>what's the point of torture in questioning? From a RP standpoint, it >>eliminates a major plot tool- and character opportunity. > >AND opens up a huge whole for crunchies to exploit. >"Yes, that right, I've killed over twenty angels single-handedly." >"Really, and how's that farmer Brown?" >"Got me right here a screamer - broadcasts a noise so powerful that it >reduces 'em to quivering pools of pain. Then, I just walk right up to >'em and blow 'em away. If you cut the head off, they die right quick." Again, depends. I'd say Will rolls would definitely be in effect here. >Unless pain *can* be only delivered by a being of high enough Strength. Up to the GM, especially on the definition of just how that pain affects the characters. Redneck Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | "It's Christmas in Heaven, http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | there's great shows on TV; c/o White Lightning Productions | the Sound of Music twice an hour http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | and Jaws I, II and III." Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- A Nybbas Christmas http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 16:06:37 EST From: Neel Krishnaswami Subject: IN> The Pool of Knowledge A location in Heaven... - ---- The Pool of Knowledge Shadowed by and nestled at the feet of the giant trees of Heaven's Groves, lies a small pool of water. It is perhaps three or four feet across, and in the dim half-light it is dark and appears much deeper than it actually is. The pool lies deep within the heart of the Groves, and the path that leads to it is narrow and ill-maintained. There is nothing that betrays the fact that this pool took the combined efforts of three archangels to create. There is nothing that betrays the fact that the water of the pool is taken from the waters of the deep that God made Creation from. There is nothing at all extraordinary about the pool, until someone with need gazes into it. Then, instead of their reflection, they will see a scene from somewhere in the Symphony that bears upon and illuminates their need. History Soon after the Fall, God closed the higher heavens, and the archangels found themselves needing a source of information about the Earth in order to effectively combat the advances of the Pit. The warrior archangels of the Grove were the ones who found themselves most in need of information, and it was they who worked together to create the pool. David created a stone font that could contain the waters of creation; Janus added every word cast onto the wind; and Michael added a single drop of a hero's blood, as a reminder that nothing of value is won without cost. Game mechanics To use the pool, a d666 roll must be made with a base target of 0. (This means that at the default, the pool will only work on an intervention.) The angel's choir and Superior can both alter the target number. With their natural resonance for the truth, the seraphim find they are the most able to use the pool, and receive a +1 bonus. The natural resonance of the Malakim is for what *should be*, not for what actually is, and as a result they find it harder to use the pool than most angels, and so take a -1 penalty. The angels of Wind, Lightning and Dreams are all at +1 to see something in the pool. Yves, like the Malakim, is more concerned with what should be than with what actually is, and as a result his angels are at a -1 to their rolls. (So a Malakite of Destiny is at a base -2, and a Seraph of Dreams is at +2.) Essence can be (and probably will need to be) spent to modify this roll. The amount and type of information gained should reflect the nature of the angel looking into it, but this is a style thing. Given the amount of Essence the pool requires to function, and that the angels are probably not supposed to be in Heaven, I'd recommend giving them a fairly substantial amount of information. - ---- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 17:46:01 -0500 (EST) From: Pee Kitty Subject: Re: IN> Other Vessel Questions On Sun, 14 Dec 1997, Perry M. Lloyd wrote: > >> What is the body *made* of? Is is soul-stuff or they actually have the > >>organs? > >> Why bother with organs if you don't need them? > > > >It seems that they have organs...otherwise an X-Ray would show them up. > > Do you mean "wouldn't" show them up? I meant, "Would reveal them as nonhuman." > I've been wondering about combat between celestials on the corporeal > realm. Seems to be that they can cause pain to each other, I site pg 99 > in the main text, where the Malakh is beating the Balseraph. But, this > could be explained by the Malakh's supernatural strength (except that Str > plays no role in amount of damage done with each blow, merely in frequency > of times damage is actually done - but I'm not bitter). Yeah...I'm not saying they won't feel pain, but they'd be less affected by it. Kind of like Vampires in WoD; you can HURT them, but they don't let it get them down...they all have a high pain threshold, basically. BTW, do you think it'd be more realistic to base combat skill on 2xForces, use Strength(/Int/Will) as a damage bonus, and continue using Agility(/Pre/Per) for Dodge? I was thinking of trying that out...since 2xCorpForces is basically the average of Strength and Agility, it seemed right. And then I could keep Power at -3, but add a bonus of 1/2 Strength (round down) to that. So the average Celestial would attack with a Power of 0. Before I try this, does it sound right? It seems more fair to base the CHANCE of attack on a "stat" that combines Strength *and* Agility, i.e., double-CorpForces. It also makes automatic success in combat a bit less rare, which is good IMO...auto-successes in combat are RIDICULOUSLY common. Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian (Married to Rev. Unibomber on 11/15/96 - be jealous ;) Meow! The Devil went down / to Newport town He brought his red surfboard / to race against the Lord It was totally rocking... totally rocking... "The Devil Went Down to Newport", Mono Puff ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 18:48:18 -0700 (MST) From: Jason Corley Subject: IN> Greetings Howdy. First of all, I just want to say that this is the best RPG mailing list I've ever been on. I know this despite only being on it a couple of days now. (I knew it was good when I saw Pee Kitty here, being a perennial alt.slack lurker.) I have to let you know a little of my approach to gaming before I start sloughing off comments on the list and sending out the things I've written for In Nomine, so that people know where I'm coming from. I have never run a game "right out of the box" except for a few Call of Cthulhu scenarios. When I see a game and I evaluate whether or not to buy it, I have to decide A) how much I'll have to change it, B) how much I'll enjoy changing it, and C) how good the final product will be. (For example, I could run a Vampire game with some minor changes that were annoying to do and the product would be pretty good. Running a Kult game would take some major changes that were tedious to do and the product wouldn't be anything to jump up and down about.) In Nomine ranked highest in my "B" category of any game I've bought in many years. It's very flexible, the setting is provocative intellectually, and is very suited to variations. I've goofed around with it for a while now (haven't actually run a game yet), and come up with some fun ideas that you might consider adding to your games or to your idea of the setting (I'll put them in as much as I can.) Also, my comments on various threads are probably not going to fit the actual rules so much as they will be my ideas on how they will affect the game that you're playing. Finally, I've just gotta say that I'm afraid the Balseraphs are just too cool. Nobody around here likes running games except me, so I'll never get a chance to play one, but they're just too cool. That's all for now. **************************************************************************** "Generally, things have gone about as far as they can possibly go when things have got about as bad as they can reasonably get.."--Tom Stoppard Jason D. Corley (aka corleyj@tau.lpl.arizona.edu) is a fugitive from Reality ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #513 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.