From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed Dec 17 09:19:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA32446 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 09:19:00 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id JAA09242 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 09:04:58 -0600 Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 09:04:58 -0600 Message-Id: <199712171504.JAA09242@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #522 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, December 17 1997 Volume 01 : Number 522 In this digest: Re: IN> Other Vessel Questions Re: IN> Other Vessel Questions IN> Tethers of the World... #1 Re: IN> One last time... Re: Re: IN> Other Vessel Questions Re: Body hits, stats and corresponding skills (was: Re: IN> One last time...) Re: IN> Combat and In Nomine Game style Re: IN> Other Vessel Questions Re: IN> Other Vessel Questions Re: IN> capturing an angel Re: IN> To trap an Angel Re: Body hits, stats and corresponding skills (was: Re: IN> One last time...) Re: IN> capturing an angel Re: IN> DVPBEM Combat Resolution IN> Silly little rules rape Re: IN> Combat and In Nomine Game style Re: Body hits, stats and corresponding skills (was: Re: IN> One last time...) Re: IN> capturing an angel Re: IN> capturing an angel Re: IN> Silly little rules rape Re: IN> capturing an angel ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 09:55:06 +0000 (GMT) From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Other Vessel Questions > > About the same as I did before- all they do is jack up the damage strong > > characters do radically beyond the ability of a weak character to withstand > > or return. They don't make combat more realistic in any meaningful sense, > > and IMHO they don't improve the old system. > > Radically? The damage bonus you get is proportional to 1/2 your Strength. > In the existing system, after overflow, it's proportional to your Strength > directly...it goes up on a 1 for 1 basis. This way is LESS radical, not > more! > Actually, I was going to post a bit about the damage differences, but it got silly. A character with 12 Strength, 4 Agility and 6 Fighting in Kitty's system has autohit, with an effective Power of 5. (4*2) + 6 = 14, = +2 to Power. 12/2 = +6 to Power. Default Power = -3. A character with 12 Strength, 4 Agility and 6 Fighting in the official system has autohit, with an effective Power of 5. 12+6 = 18 = +6 to Power. Fighting 6 = +1 to Power. Strength 12 = + 1 to Power. Default Power = -3. Corporeal Charm vs Strength will reduce the damage done in the first example by half the check digit, and will not affect autohit in any way whatsoever. In the second case, Corporeal Charm vs Strength will reduce the Power by 1 per check digit, with an extra point reduction with a check digit of 4, and removing autohit rather than Power with a check digit of 7 or 8. Use against Agility will not affect either attack. If Kitty's system is redefined as (Agility + Strength)/2, rather than (2*CorpForces), in Kitty's system, the effect of the check digit is to reduce the Power by 2 for every 2 points of the Check Digit, (this is different from 1 for every 1), and with a check digit of 6 or above will start removing autohit in addition to Power, though the Power reduction is halved. Use against Agility will reduce the Power by no more than 1, and can't remove autohit, because of the constraints of Corporeal Charm. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 10:18:58 +0000 (GMT) From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Other Vessel Questions > Kevin Walsh writes: > >I was going to post a self-righteous claim that I, at least, would never > >do such a thing, until I realised that I had on a number of occasions. > > Me, I've only penalized Eth Forces ONCE, that's was in Redneck's DVPBEM, > ironically. :) > > Why? Usually I play soldiers when I'm a player because I doubt I'd be > very able to see things from a Celestial's point of view. But, I'm > playing a demon in DVPBEM. I lowered his Eth forces because I didn't > think that I, as human, could possible role-play that high an Intelligence. > I could do 4, but 6? 6 Intelligence is about equivalent to 130 IQ (I'm extrapolating from WOD). A fair bit above average for humans, but not amazingly so. Of course, I can't see myself roleplaying someone with Intelligence 8 very well, but a fair number of characters of mine have around that. I don't think so. I didn't want a lowered Int and > out of proportion Precision (snap-shot from hell) so I went with the two Eth > forces. > No, go for disproprotion! I usually go the other way, though, making smart characters who can't hold a gun straight (lack of any ranged weapon skills has an impact there though). As for the lack of ranged weapon skills, it's probably due to my environment. In Ireland, where I live, having handguns or crossbows is illegal, you need a licence for a rifle or a shotgun, and automatic weapons are out unless you're the Army or the Special Branch. Even most police don't have guns. So I tend to think of guns as things that you'd never get to use. Even though I know that some gangs, and the various paramilitary groups have them, the average scummer has to make do with knives and blood-filled syringes. > In a way, it only makes sense to me that people would sacrifice Eth forces > for a higher Corp or Cele. I mean, if a Superior hasn't designed a > celestial being to need to play around in the Dreamlands and they can > function pretty well with a human intelligence brain, why not pump up > their Corp or Eth? > They mightn't be able to function all that well, if they're being outthought by enemy Celestials. > But, me, I sacrificed Eth forces for the sake of role-playing. I've only made > one celestial player character so far, the rest have been all soldiers. :) > I'm told that we're eventually going to have soldier-type characters. I'm torn between a Vampire with every folklore-based Discord I can think of and a heavily deranged Sorcerer. (Every demonic character I have ever created has Discord, frequently lots of it. As for WOD characters, I tend to produce either a history or a group of flaws that seriously hampers the character, like the time I gave a Mage the Lifesaver flaw combined with the Throwback flaw (one of his past lives sitting in his head, commenting on his every action). That was amusing.) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 10:31:10 -0000 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: IN> Tethers of the World... #1 (I thought it'd be sort of interesting to write up tether ideas for cities that we know well. I know its something I'd find useful if I decided to send some PCs on a foreign jaunt, to be able to tell them which tethers they might have heard about. On that note...) Great Tethers of the World #1 -- London Unsurprisingly, London is peppered with tethers and has at least one for each superior (I know someone gave a nice list of ideas ages ago) but there are 4 of particular strength/ significance... (NB. London in my game comes across to celestials like a cross between 1984 and 'V for Vendetta'. Both Judgement and The Game are very strong here, although Marc maintains a neutral territory in the heart of the City which is sometimes available to negotiators from either side, for any purpose -- if they are willing to pay the price and run the gauntlet. It would be clear to an outside observer that the demons have the upper hand in the city, and probably the country also.) - --- Name: The Cabinet Office (http://www.open.gov.uk/co/cohome.htm) [Love the way it has the word 'open' in the URL ;-) It has a nice Xmas card with a picture of Humphrey the cat on it!] Superior: Asmodeus Location: Whitehall. The cabinet office comprises the heart of the UK government and civil service. It is specifically the room in which the cabinet meets, but also includes the building the room is sited in. Seneschal: Sir Humphrey, Shedite of the Game (often used to appear as Humphrey the Downing Street cat but the cat has been relocated so he's more likely to possess some anonymous civil servant these days). History: The cabinet office (as in the room in which the government ministers hold high level meetings) has been a tether to The Game since Cromwell's day, when celestial powerplays around the Puritan movement left the demonic side with an advantage that they have never since lost in local and national politics. Politics: Officially the HQ of any united demonic efforts that take place in London. In practice every infernal who is officially in the city pays lip service to Sir Humphrey, and the unofficial visitors keep well away. He always rewards infernals who rat on their colleagues. - --- Name: The British Museum (http://www.british-museum.ac.uk/) Superior: Valefor Location: Bloomsbury; includes the vaults of the museum and the disused tube station underneath it as well as the exhibition rooms. It excludes the library although that is currently being moved away from the main museum anyway (unfortunately approx. 30% of its books seem to have been mislaid during the move ;) ). Senseschal: Varies. It seems to be a job that goes on rotation frequently. The seneschal is known informally as 'the tea-leaf' but who the current tea-leaf is can only be worked out on location. NB. 'tea leaf' is cockney rhyming slang for thief... History: The BM is the oldest museum in the world, and since its inception has been used to display marvellous foreign artefacts that have been stolen from their original owners and brought back to London, where they can be 'properly looked after'. Its unknown how many other items have passed through its vaults, restoration rooms and cellars. Politics: Despite all claims that this is a 'non-political, working tether' only, it has become something of a haven from The Game. Valefor does get his servants to actively blackmail/ coerce other demons who use it as a haven to do work for him though.. for every favour, there is a price. - --- Name: The Old Bailey (http://www.adnama-publishing.com/photo/photo_03.jpg) Superior: Dominic Location: Cheapside; centred in the Star Chamber, which is the highest court of criminal justice in the land, but also includes the entire Old Bailey building and the holding cells underneath it. This also has the effect that any demons with roles as barristers/ advocates or judges simply cannot enter it. Seneschal: Currently vacant, but unlikely to be so for long, pending investigation. It is the seneschal's job to co-ordinate triad activity in the city. The previous seneschal's soldiers are trying to fill in for it, and there is a lot of celestial backup but behind the scenes, angels are afraid. History: The Star Chamber and the system of trial by jury were instituted by Henry VII in the 15th century, which makes this the oldest extant tether in London. Politics: It has become the de facto HQ for divine planning in London, although successive seneschals have pleaded for its neutrality and martial angels have a preference for David's tether at Victoria Station. A constant stream of soft-spoken angelic advocates gather at the tether regularly to give expositions on various aspects of Jurisprudence but the place has a (deserved) reputation that more angels go in through the front entrance than ever come out again. Despite all this, if one's purpose is true and one is willing to submit to a grilling from the seneschal and its cohorts, this is the place to come to ask for help in combating demons. (Good luck) - --- Name: The London Stock Exchange (http://www.londonstockex.co.uk/) Superior: Marc Location: City of London. The Stock Exchange itself is the tether, but Marc has a lot of soldiers, servants and influence in the area and effectively controls most of the local financial institutions. It is one of the world's three major stock exchanges and seems set to continue in that trend for the foreseeable future. Senschal: Vries, Mercurian Master of Trade. It hosts grand cocktail parties for new arrivals at which both angels and demons are sometimes invited. History: England has a long history as a mercantile nation, but the stock exchange wasn't formed until the 16th century. Marc shifted some influence around and the tether shimmered into being. Its motto is 'My word is my bond' and up until going electronic in the 1980's, ALL business deals were concluded by verbal agreement and a handshake. Politics: It is a very cosmopolitan tether, Marc has no objections to any other angelic superiors using it but allows no violence nor martial planning which makes it more useful as a haven than a strategic outpost. The City of London proper covers about one square mile, includes the Domenican tether, and unsurprisingly demons tend to avoid it. Rumours amongst local demons are that although it might be possible to muster enough local infernal power to smash the tether down, Princes have found that Marc is easier to negotiate with than almost any superior on their own side so there is a lot of subtle politicking in hell to support his position quietly. He is also a better businessman and his influence on financial affairs props the entire country up. As he comments in an off-the-record memo to Valefor, 'Its a win-win situation as it stands, so I'd like to see that bond returned before sunrise or you can consider your local operation to be bankrupt. Lets do lunch sometime.'. jo ps. Catch the new Bond film, 'Tomorrow Never Dies'. Jonathan Pryce IS Nybbas! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 10:39:34 +0000 (GMT) From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> One last time... > >I've already got that, actually. I'm not doing anything the system isn't > >ALREADY doing...I'm just doing it in a more sensible way. > > > >Sample IN CHaracter > >CORP F: 4 > >Strength 12 > >Agility 6 > >Fighting/6 > > > >ROLL TO HIT: Automatic > >DAMAGE: CD + 5 > > Correction: isn't it CD + 7? > +6 by my calculation, but that Agility looks wrong. It's not an exact match to the Forces, therefore not a starting character. > > > >Sample IN Character > >CORP F: 3 > >Strength 9 > >Agility 3 > >Fighting/5 > > > >ROLL TO HIT: Automatic > >DAMAGE: CD + 1 > > CD + 3? > CD + 1 by my calculations. > > I did my own math and compared. My objections are not with the high end of > the scale, but the middle and low ends, which bite it big time from your > proposal. > A low-Strength character now. 2 Corporeal Forces, 3 Strength, 5 Agility, no Fighting skill (default -1). (She's a social munchkin, not a combat one.) Official System: Hits on a 2 for -3 Power. Kitty's system. Hits on a 3 for -2 Power. > Characters who are -already- at a severe disadvantage due to low Strength > will have another level of inequity between them and high-Str characters. > Not only will they not recieve an appreciable boost to their chances of > hitting a high-Str player, they do -even less- damage to that someone than > that high-Str player does to them. > I don't see it. And the answer to the revolver objection is the fact that he said he'd do comparable things with the other skills. (I'm pretty sure he said that.) So we look at her under the old system, with a light revolver, no Power bonus, no Accuracy bonus. 3 Ethereal Forces, Intelligence 8, Precision 4, no ranged weapon skill (default -2). Hits on a 2 with 0 Power. Under Kitty's system... Hits on a 4 with 2 Power. Personally, when I made that character, I didn't care about the fact that she had next to no chance of hitting someone with a gun, I didn't intend her to be able to or want to. In Kitty's system, she has something of a chance, but I don't know that I like that. I can't see the connection between high Intelligence and being able to use guns. > I'm rethinking the combat system I use, but it will be based on STR + FIGHT. > It will not allow automatic success on any but the simplest of tasks. It > will provide only modest, if any, bonuses for super-strength. It will have a > more sensible and easy to understand weapons system. And most importantly, > it will be as simple as I can possibly make it. > I can't see it. It's impossible. (I just thought I'd inspire you all with that remark.) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 10:41:51 +0000 (GMT) From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: Re: IN> Other Vessel Questions > >True, but claymores aren't in common use these days. }:-{D > > > >Redneck > > "What's Green, Square, and says 'This Side Towards Enemy?'" > > Mark(Sorry, I couldn't resist, not after the RPG confusion!) > That was not confusion, it was a joke. An awful joke which I would hit someone else for, but one which I couldn't resist. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 10:57:55 +0000 (GMT) From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: Body hits, stats and corresponding skills (was: Re: IN> One last time...) > idea who's right and who's wrong. Actually, FWIW, I believe the problem > with corporeal combat is not so much how often people hit and how often > they do damage, but the huge difference in body hits. In my campaign, I > have two humans with 2 body hits We have a Shedite with 2 Body hits. And 60 Soul hits. The disproportion can work in all directions. (admittedly the bottom end of the > scale); otherwise, I have 9-Force Celestials with body hits ranging from > 9 to 54, most of them clustered around the bottom end of the scale with > the combat-heavy types typically above 40. This is a *huge* difference: > put them in a group, spray them with machine-gun fire, half of the group > will go poof immediately and the other half will still be standing. > I think a lot of people reckon that it should be possible to make tanks out of angels and demons. I have some sympathy with that perspective myself. Ultimately, when you have one group of people built on 9 Forces and another built on 6, there is going to be a massive imbalance between the two groups. The most powerful PC group in In Nomine is much more powerful to mundanes in comparison than those in WOD, with the exception of Garou. > This isn't necessarily a cause of game imbalance - I'd be a rotten GM if > I threw way too hard NPCs at combat-unready characters and had them all > die, or had a couple of party members wade through wimpy demons and cut > them in half with one stroke of a sword. But nonetheless, it's a > substantial difference, and something you have to be aware of when > you're running combat. > The important thing to remember is that wimpy demons are usually either very smart, or very good at shooting at things from far away, or very good at using their resonance/detecting you. And someone with a big Role has a pretty good chance of having a lot of mates (not even servants) who would be glad to help out. > > Which reminds me of a point I've often thought about: in the same way as > basing everything on a d6 makes for a very course granularity system, > only having six basic stats means some of the base stats for skills can > sometimes be arbitrary. As a musician, I've often wondered whether the > music skill should be based upon Precision (concentration and precise > manual control required to play the instrument) or Perception (you have > to have a good ear to be at all musical). (For that matter, Intelligence > comes into it as well, certainly during the learning process, and maybe > for composing.) > I think that that's the case with any system. What I dislike most about the lack of characteristics is the lack of any distinction between types of Charisma, in games mechanic terms. I've often felt that ranged weapons should be Perception based, because it's damn important to be able to see what you're shooting at. > OTOH, you can simply ignore this and go with the flow. Hell, my players > have to worry about how many body hits they have, because otherwise > they'll die; no way, though, am I taking more than a rough count of how > many the NPCs have. If this is a good and appropriate time for them to > die, they'll die, and to hell with numbers. > The problem with that is that people notice if with one hit they do enough damage to stun, but with three more just like it they haven't killed the person. (Or more likely, the guy was never stunned but was killed in three rounds.) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 11:12:40 +0000 (GMT) From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Combat and In Nomine Game style > (3) The check dice is a pain to locate with the other dice if you > ever actually Do roll them together. > Are your dice all the same colour? > I tend to control the 1st issue by as GM, having a hand in charater > generation, so that the variations are within my ability to make fair for > all. Shouldn't all good GMs authorise characters anyway? Otherwise people will pull off ridiculously munchie scams. The second I tend to ignore. And the last is solved by reverting to the > old system of a success roll followed by a damage roll. > Hit point suggestion: > > Add the Total forces of the entity at the end as a constant. Thus > even the physically weakest celestial will be able to survive a punch or > two, and the toughest will not have too much of a bonus. Or, do this: > > HP = (Corp forces+level of body)x(str/2) + (total forces). > Interesting, though the adding total Forces bit at the end isn't rationalisable except as game balance. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 08:14:41 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Other Vessel Questions > > But then, I use the Paranoia Dramatic Combat system, and avoided this > question > in the first place. > > Mark I played Paranoia last weekend, and for a game where you shoot your friends for being traitors (myself included... heh) the combat worked amazingly smoothly. It was simple and straight forward, and those of us who had never played before had the hang of it after a clone or two. I've put it on the pile of systems to consider, and it's sitting next to Feng Shui and a true 3D6 system currently as the IN Combat Replacement System. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 08:31:22 -0500 From: johnk@lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) Subject: Re: IN> Other Vessel Questions > > One can posit that it's simply easier to pattern vessels > >after a working design (i.e. humans and animals). A celestial is > >a complex being and it probably would take a lot more time and > >energy to make non-standard vessels. Add to that the fact that > >neither side really wants to trumpet their presence (the fact that > >they haven't done something this easy is ample evidence that they > >don't want to) then very 'realistic' vessels make a lot of sense. > > Cool, thanks, John. I guess I really should have just asked the IN Canon Crew. > Seems that we've gotten back to Combat, Strength and Damage... funny, > that. :) Why I do feel so much like a Servitor of the Wind? :) Well, this list _is_ for discussion. On several occasions I didn't even have a firmly formed opinion until after reading all the discussion on the list. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 08:42:23 -0500 From: johnk@lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) Subject: Re: IN> capturing an angel On Dec 16, 9:28am, d.ranzato@bpa.vnu.com wrote: > Subject: IN> capturing an angel > So, is there a way you can capture and imprison an angel (he has no > dissonance (yet) so i canīt use Dissonance Binding on him). Any > suggestions or ideas are welcomed. There are numerous ways that a GM can insure an angel stays put. The important thing is pick one and stick to it so that the angel has _some_ way of getting free (or being rescued!) Special artifacts (the chains) could prevent a celestial being from going celestial. The cave could have a special property that prevents celestial forms from existing. One of the captors has a Song that temporarily ties someone into their vessel. Any of these ideas can be modified, of course. Maybe instead of the chains, a rune has been tattooed onto the angel's body? - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 08:49:14 -0500 From: "Rev.The Other Chris" Subject: Re: IN> To trap an Angel ehp wrote: > > So, is there a way you can capture and imprison an angel (he has no > dissonance (yet) so i canīt use Dissonance Binding on him). Any suggestions > or ideas are welcomed. > A toughy. In one of my old campaigns I used the "Sorcerer's Cross". Inspired (I think) by a Doctor Strange comic, it was a device created by the Inquisition to imprison powerful wizards while they were interrogated (and burned). It fed back any force used by the occupant, effectively making it impossible to break out of. The only way to escape was to get someone else to let you out. The cross resembled a big wooden or stone "X", with manacles fitted at the appropriate points, and where reasonably easy to make. It's a Deus Ex Machina, but considering it was origianlly created by the good guys, it can be quite amusing. Rev.Chris - -- The Reverend "The Other Chris" Not Subbie...Not Dommie...Just Pervy UIN # 4814586 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 09:23:18 -0500 From: johnk@lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) Subject: Re: Body hits, stats and corresponding skills (was: Re: IN> One last time...) On Dec 17, 3:30am, Sam Kington wrote: > Subject: Body hits, stats and corresponding skills (was: Re: IN> One last > Well, I've been following this thread for quite a while, and I must > confess I haven't taken the time to really do the maths, so I have no > idea who's right and who's wrong. Actually, FWIW, I believe the problem > with corporeal combat is not so much how often people hit and how often > they do damage, but the huge difference in body hits. In my campaign, I > have two humans with 2 body hits (admittedly the bottom end of the > scale); otherwise, I have 9-Force Celestials with body hits ranging from > 9 to 54, most of them clustered around the bottom end of the scale with > the combat-heavy types typically above 40. This is a *huge* difference: > put them in a group, spray them with machine-gun fire, half of the group > will go poof immediately and the other half will still be standing. Anyone in a game that has ANY combat should reconsider having 2(!) Body Points. Corporeal Song of Shields would be a _very_ good investment! Or maybe going down to they gym and building up their CorpForces. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 15:26:25 +0100 From: d.ranzato@bpa.vnu.com Subject: Re: IN> capturing an angel First, I want to thank everyone who replied to my message. I think I will use to the solution that the chains are "magickal" and prevent the angel from going celestial. The suggestion to blackmail the angel ("go celstial and Mr. Jackson and his three little children die!") I think is especially demonic and I shall use that also. And maybe Iīll send a writeup for the "Celestial Chains of Doom" to this list. On another note, is it possible that a Malakim talks to a demon and afterwards let the demon go away, claiming that one day he will destroy this evil? Or is this dissonant for a Malakim. I ask this because I want more interaction between my demon NPCīs and my PCīs. But, one of my players has a Malakim of the Sword character and when a diabolical shows his face (and the PC know it is a demon) and the demon tries to begin a conversation (even about the weather), the player shouts his battle cry, draws his sword and jumps on the demon. I know that one of the most important vows for a Malakim is "never suffer an evil to live", but I donīt think this prevents the Malakim to have a "normal" conversation with a diabolical. And to complicate matters further another PC is a Seraph of War. Help! Donato ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 09:31:46 -0500 From: johnk@lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) Subject: Re: IN> DVPBEM Combat Resolution > > Now, I was getting what I considered decent results with this > system, but debating with PK pointed out a flaw- the whole system would > grind down weak characters in nothing flat. There has to be a way of using > non-negative weapons values without stomping an average human into the > ground with two punches. Well, you could revert to the old system where human vessels had a 'level' to boost up their Body Hits. Since all damages are higher this wouldn't unbalance things. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 14:33:27 +0000 (GMT) From: Kevin Walsh Subject: IN> Silly little rules rape Last night as I was wending my way home in the freezing night air, it occured to me that, with the Balseraph of Fate attunement, I could justify getting the Lilim resonance, on the grounds that Bright Lilim exist, and are angels, and have the Lilite resonance. This strikes me as silly. One for the FAQ? The same would go for Yves' Master distinction. Also, has anyone noticed that this means both of them have the resonance of every single Choir of Angels? After all, you can't hand out powers you don't have yourself. (At least allegedly you can't.) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 09:44:10 -0500 From: johnk@lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) Subject: Re: IN> Combat and In Nomine Game style > So we come to the question... what are the problems? And can they be > fixed, or more correctly, what can be done on an individual level to make > the system more suit the style of gaming that the genre demands. > > Issues: > (1) Hit points vary from angel to angel in ludicrous fashion. The > middle high end have so many hit points that it takes hours of RPG time to > whittle them down. While the low end have been blown away in the first > combat round, and have gone for drinks while the others finish. This is a problem I had from the beginning. Body Hits work on the _square_ since it is based on CorpForces and Strength, and Strength is based on CorpForces. This leads to a range of piddling Body Hits and a some very mondo scores. (Any time you multiply numbers, you'll get situations like this...) Possible solution: Make Body Hits equal to Strength*Level, period. Humans get Strength*(Toughness+1). You still get relatively high scores if someone wants to boost up both their Strength and vessel level, but it does contract the curve somewhat. A possible variation (so that Strength isn't used for both HtH combat AND Body Points) is to make the formula CorpForces*Level*modifier. 'Modifier' is a GM set number to fine tune how deadly you want the campaign to be. High number, low deadliness, and vice-versa. It can also be different for celestials and mortals. > (2) A fight requires several modifiers to be taken into account that > basically slow things up. Possible solution: Ignore most modifiers. I just do the vast majority by the seat of my pants, anyways. > (3) The check dice is a pain to locate with the other dice if you > ever actually Do roll them together. Huh? You are specifically supposed to have a CD that is very distinct from the other two so that rolling all at once is easy. (My CD is always a _very_ different color and usually a different size as well...) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 14:43:59 +0000 (GMT) From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: Body hits, stats and corresponding skills (was: Re: IN> One last time...) > > Anyone in a game that has ANY combat should reconsider having > 2(!) Body Points. Corporeal Song of Shields would be a _very_ good > investment! Or maybe going down to they gym and building up their > CorpForces. > > What you do when you have 2 Body Points...don't go into dangerous places. When the rest of the group is breaking into the building, you say, "Eh, I'll stay outside in the car, or better yet back home." And don't try to call someone's bluff. You'd regret it if they took your injunction to go ahead and kill them literally. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 09:45:48 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> capturing an angel d.ranzato@bpa.vnu.com wrote: > On another note, is it possible that a Malakim talks to a demon and > afterwards let the demon go away, claiming that one day he will > destroy this evil? The terms of the oath, as I recall, are that the Malakite will not suffer an evil to live _when_it_is_his_choice_. But if the Malakite is subordinate to someone else, he may let a demon go on orders from that superior. So, if your Malakite is taking orders from some more mellow Mercurian or Elohite, he can be leashed by that superior saying "Let him go, Bubba," or even by a general policy statement like "I know it chafes, but we're working WITH this Lilim on this assignment, so hands off for the duration. I'll tell you when hunting season starts again." (By the way, in this context, a "superior" is not necessarily a "Superior," an Archangel, just the angel the Malakite reports to.) Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 14:52:03 +0000 (GMT) From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> capturing an angel > > On another note, is it possible that a Malakim talks to a demon and > afterwards let the demon go away, claiming that one day he will destroy > this evil? Or is this dissonant for a Malakim. Dissonant until that particular evil is removed, I'd imagine. > I ask this because I want more interaction between my demon NPC4s and my > PC4s. But, one of my players has a Malakim of the Sword character and when > a diabolical shows his face (and the PC know it is a demon) and the demon > tries to begin a conversation (even about the weather), the player shouts > his battle cry, draws his sword and jumps on the demon. Methinks the demon should be damn careful about where (s)he starts talking to Malakites, or someone who behaves like a Malakite. Do it in a public place, preferably with cops around. Any Malakite with half a brain will try to take them out later where they can't be seen, with due regard for the possibility of ambush. Spare Vessels are good things for that demon to have, both as disguise and to avoid Celestial Attraction and Cherubic resonance. Or, if you're a Balseraph, tell the Malakite you want to redeem, then talk about the weather for the couple of minutes you have left before he cops on and tries to kill you. I know that one of > the most important vows for a Malakim is "never suffer an evil to live", > but I don4t think this prevents the Malakim to have a "normal" conversation > with a diabolical. I reckon it does, unless it's part of the Malakite's devious plan to rid the world of that demon once and for until (s)he gets out of Trauma. Of course, some Malakites mightn't consider some demons evil. But I can't imagine that most Servitors of Laurence would be among those. And to complicate matters further another PC is a > Seraph of War. Help! > Well in that case, just remember that they have to actually fight them before they can tell what side they're on, though fencing practice should probably count. But that doesn't solve the Balseraph's problem, does it? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 09:56:53 -0500 From: johnk@lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) Subject: Re: IN> Silly little rules rape On Dec 17, 2:33pm, Kevin Walsh wrote: > Subject: IN> Silly little rules rape > Last night as I was wending my way home in the freezing night air, it > occured to me that, with the Balseraph of Fate attunement, I could > justify getting the Lilim resonance, on the grounds that Bright Lilim > exist, and are angels, and have the Lilite resonance. This strikes me as > silly. One for the FAQ? Hmmmmmmm.... this is a tricky one. We definitely know that only Lilith can create Lilim. The main reason the other Princes want Lilim is for their Resonance. Therefore if Fate could grant this Resonance, that means that Lilith would be much less powerful. Therefore we can reason that it is _not_ possible since Lilith isn't that weak. For a more direct argument one can always say that Lilim AND their Resonance are a unique creation of Lilith and not reproducible. All those other Choirs have been around for quite some time in many forms while Lilim have always been a rare and precious resource. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 14:54:33 -0000 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: Re: IN> capturing an angel >I ask this because I want more interaction between my demon NPC$B!-(Js and my (J>PC$B!-(Js. But, one of my players has a Malakim of the Sword character and when (J>a diabolical shows his face (and the PC know it is a demon) and the demon >tries to begin a conversation (even about the weather), the player shouts >his battle cry, draws his sword and jumps on the demon. Mmm-hmm. Well that sort of is what they do ;-) Obviously some Malakim are brighter and more into long-term thinking than others... Ideas: 1) Have your demon NPC meet the PCs in a public location, or even better ... on live TV. If the Malakite draws a weapon have him arrested or something. 2) Have your PC's car stopped and searched from time to time. 3)Have one of them acquire a mortal SO who is a nosey journalist or police detective. 4) Have your PCs deal with a soldier of the NPC or a servant. They'll create a lot of noise if they kill it and will lose any chance to track it back to source. 5) Make it obvious that the NPC is part of a Bigger Plot (tm) so if they kill it immediately they may not get to deal with the Real Evil (tm) and get their superior to order them to deal with the Real Evil as their main priority. 6) Give the NPC at least 5 levels in the ethereal song of harmony ;) or Celestial song of motion. 7) Have the NPC ping one of the PC Malakite's other vows, 'accidentally'. (Ie. If he can never refuse to aid a damsel in distress then give it a cute female vessel). jo ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #522 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.