From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sat Dec 27 19:05:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA30391 for ; Sat, 27 Dec 1997 19:05:55 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id SAA08730 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sat, 27 Dec 1997 18:56:47 -0600 Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 18:56:47 -0600 Message-Id: <199712280056.SAA08730@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #533 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Saturday, December 27 1997 Volume 01 : Number 533 In this digest: Re: IN> Concerning the Stability Song's Power... IN> It finally happened, damnit... Re: IN> It finally happened, damnit... Re: IN> It finally happened, damnit... IN> Concerning the Stability Song's Power... IN> Song of Stability Re: IN> It finally happened, damnit... Re: IN> Song of Stability Re: IN> Zina, Free Lilim IN> A new and disturbing NPC encounter... IN> A review and a quibble... Re: IN> It finally happened, damnit... IN> test IN> Fwd: What 'he' finally did... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 21:28:54 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> Concerning the Stability Song's Power... > <> > > < start out at almost the bottom of the barrel; they have about 2/3 of > what celestials have for Forces and character points, the have no > resonances, and when they die, they aren't necessarily coming > back.>> > > Since the rules would lead one to beleive that humans are *not* > supposed to be able to contend with celestials, but instead to act > as mere pawns or assistants to a much grander cause then they could > ever imagine, why then, would we want humans on a more level field > with celestials? Because it makes mixed games more fun, and reduces the WODesque "humans are nothing but faceless bloodbags". Plus, it doesn't level it *that* much - the Song costs lots of precious points to get to any good level (which still isn't very much). Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com "Five seconds later, I'm getting the upside of 15Kv across the nipples. (These ambulance guys sure know how to party)." - BOFH ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Dec 97 21:48:35 -0500 From: David Wood Subject: IN> It finally happened, damnit... ...a religious zealot type has gotten a hold of a copy of In Nomine. He made a lengthy post to rec.games.frp.misc with his corrections and commentary, including calling Derek Pearsy a Balseraph for his flagrant lies in the descriptions of the choirs and archangels, his insistence that everything should be done from the Christian perspective, what happens to demons when they're "destroyed," that all the Archangels should be male (Two bucks says this twit's a Baptist; I think Archangel Beth should send him E-mail), that Jesus Christ be mentioned much more prominently, and that a good substitute for combat is a system of quoting scripture from memory to defeat demons. The latter point represents: A) a good way to memorize scripture, B) a form of brainwashing, or C) all of the above. It'd be frightening if it weren't so pathetic; the guy has his head so far up his ass that he can smell his own breath. There are also indications that not only hasn't he read the rulebook that carefully, but he accepts it as a sort of gospel too. Isn't there some anti-RPG group we could report this wanker to...? I saved the post so I could forward it to my gaming cronies. With coaxing, I could post it here, or I could send it to someone for public posting -- I have to imagine that SJG would get a kick out of it. If you don't sift through the newsgroups on a regular basis, E-mail me and I'll send you a copy too. Frankly, I don't think that even I can ridicule this enough myself... - -David http://www.bluecrab.org/members/dwood/ Demon of Obfuscation in service to Malphas ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 22:09:00 -0500 (EST) From: Mark Kinney Subject: Re: IN> It finally happened, damnit... On Fri, 26 Dec 1997, David Wood wrote: > ...a religious zealot type has gotten a hold of a copy of In Nomine. >[snip... haven't seen the post yet, but will] > Beth should send him E-mail), that Jesus Christ be mentioned much more > prominently, and that a good substitute for combat is a system of quoting > scripture from memory to defeat demons. > The latter point represents: > A) a good way to memorize scripture, > B) a form of brainwashing, or > C) all of the above. > Depending, of course, on whether you're intentionally trying to memorize Bible verses. Personally, I'm getting something of an adventure idea out of this... :-) alberich@iglou.com | Mark Kinney | http://www.iglou.com/nations "The spectre on my back will soon be free/ the dead have come to claim a debt from thee" -- The Pogues, "Turkish Song of the Damned" (MacGowan) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 22:17:06 -0500 (EST) From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> It finally happened, damnit... On Fri, 26 Dec 1997, David Wood wrote: > ...a religious zealot type has gotten a hold of a copy of In Nomine. We all knew this was going to happen sooner or later. All that's left is for a pathetic teenager to create a cult of personality based upon what he's read in the book, and coerce his followers to engage in ritualistic murder. > should be male (Two bucks says this twit's a Baptist; I think Archangel Southern Baptist, I'd wager. Northern Baptists aren't nearly as annoying or arrogant. > I saved the post so I could forward it to my gaming cronies. With > coaxing, I could post it here, or I could send it to someone for public > posting -- I have to imagine that SJG would get a kick out of it. If you > don't sift through the newsgroups on a regular basis, E-mail me and I'll > send you a copy too. Frankly, I don't think that even I can ridicule this > enough myself... Go ahead. I haven't vented my spleen lately. Oh, and on behalf of Christians everywhere, I apologize for this twit. - -- Casca, Seraph of Archives (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 01:27:31 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Concerning the Stability Song's Power... >>>PS - One last note: PLEASE KNOCK MY IDEAS INTO OBLIVION, if you think that's where they belong.<<< Hey, no one is trying to knock your ideas into oblivion. Frankly, I don't comment at all on about 90% of the ideas that get posted on this list, only the things that actually interest me. I haven't offered any "fixes" for your Song because it's basic concept (only Soldiers can do it) goes against some fundamental premises in my campaign, which is largely based on the official In Nomine universe. Using this Song, as written, would change your campaign significantly from the canonical In Nomine universe. If that's what you want to do, more power to you! - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 01:27:29 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Song of Stability >>>That? Lots of people have independantly come to the conclusion that AD&D is good.<<< Yes, and lots of people believe the moon landings were hoaxed. Duh. Say, are you saying that AD&D is objectively "bad"? Heheheh. Nevermind....you went off on a spurious tangent, and I'm going to avoid the temptation to take the ball and run with it.... >>>No, you can't. Thats the whole point of how me made the rule. You have to make the perception roll to try countering the action. No perception success, no countering.<<< Ok, I did miss that point. That makes it a little more balanced, but it still just wouldn't fit in "official" In Nomine. (Mandatory Disclaimer: Yes, Of Course Official In Nomine Imposes No Limitations On Your Campaign And You Can Use Any Rules You Want, Etc. Etc. Etc.) >>>And this is a bad thing? It puts humans on more of a level field with Celestials.<<< If that's what you want to do in your campaign, fine. But the way the game is designed, celestials and humans aren't intended to be on a "level playing field". >>>Something else to remember, David, that I think you are forgetting in your rush to judge this Song as unfitting -<<< I'm not "rushing" to anything. I CAN'T judge whether any Song is "unfitting" for any campaign but my own. I am simply expressing my personal opinion. You disagree. Splendid. Life goes on. >>>I'd still say they are getting the short end of the stick, and in my games I'd probably increase it's power a bit.<<< Then do that in your games. What's the problem? - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 03:06:08 -0500 From: "Thomas Davidson" Subject: Re: IN> It finally happened, damnit... - ---------- > From: David Wood > To: In Nomine > Subject: IN> It finally happened, damnit... > Date: Friday, December 26, 1997 9:48 PM > > ...a religious zealot type has gotten a hold of a copy of In Nomine. > > He made a lengthy post to rec.games.frp.misc with his corrections and > commentary, including calling Derek Pearsy a Balseraph for his flagrant > lies in the descriptions of the choirs and archangels, Well, Derek *has* taken some liberties with the source material, as we all know. Calling him a Bal for it, though, is stretching things a bit far. his insistence > that everything should be done from the Christian perspective, Admittedly, this confuses me. Why? Christianity is *far* from the only religion in the world. In fact, it is far from the only religion in the US. what > happens to demons when they're "destroyed," that all the Archangels > should be male Grrr.... >Two bucks says this twit's a Baptist; Sorry. Can't be. Baptists believe that angels are genderless. In fact, they don't even believe in a hierarchy of angels. They do exist in the Baptist Cosmology, just no choirs and ranks. >I think Archangel > Beth should send him E-mail), Heh. >that Jesus Christ be mentioned much more > prominently, I thought so, too, at first blush. But then I actually *read* it, and decided that it was a good thing that Jesus wasn't mentioned. >and that a good substitute for combat is a system of quoting > scripture from memory to defeat demons. > Geez, I'm having flashbacks of parochial school. No! I don't want to memorize the book of I Timothy! > The latter point represents: > A) a good way to memorize scripture, > B) a form of brainwashing, or > C) all of the above. > No, Mr. Garrigues! Not 3 John! No! > It'd be frightening if it weren't so pathetic; the guy has his head so > far up his ass that he can smell his own breath. There are also > indications that not only hasn't he read the rulebook that carefully, but > he accepts it as a sort of gospel too. > These are the scariest types. > Isn't there some anti-RPG group we could report this wanker to...? > To the 700 Club? Oh, wait, that would be playing into the enemy's hands. DOH! :) > I saved the post so I could forward it to my gaming cronies. With > coaxing, I could post it here, or I could send it to someone for public > posting -- I have to imagine that SJG would get a kick out of it. If you > don't sift through the newsgroups on a regular basis, E-mail me and I'll > send you a copy too. Frankly, I don't think that even I can ridicule this > enough myself... > Personally, I would like to see it. I trolled r.g.f.misc and couldn't find it. Somebody musta killfiled it. Thomas Davidson tdavidso@suffolk.lib.ny.us MUSIC: Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, Rolling Stones, Rush, Jimi Hendrix GAMES: Champions (old and new), In Nomine, Nephilim TV: The X-Files, The Simpsons, Superman, The Tick, The Animaniacs OTHER: Religion, Philosophy, mysticism, the runes, the Tarot, writing ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 03:10:26 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> Song of Stability > >>>That? Lots of people have independantly come to the conclusion > that AD&D is good.<<< > > Yes, and lots of people believe the moon landings were > hoaxed. Duh. Say, are you saying that AD&D is objectively "bad"? No, but I was saying that lots of people aren't necessarily right, and that disagreeing with them is what makes a lot of good things in the first place. Maybe I should have said "...that AD&D is good enough." Subjectively: Hell yes, I'm saying AD&D is bad. It's so bad that now it's trying to be GURPS (Player's and DM's Option books, IIRC). It's combat rules make In Nomine's look positively logical. It clings to pointless moral categorization of characters, races, and monsters instead of encouraging true moral roleplaying. I have yet to meet anybody who has been completely satisfied with the rules as written. Hell, I have yet to meet somebody who *knows* the rules as written. > Nevermind....you went off on a spurious tangent, and I'm going to > avoid the temptation to take the ball and run with it.... Flames to private email, please. But if anybody feels the need, go for it. I've got the free time, and I'm feeling in rare form lately. Go ahead. Try telling me it's good. I *dare* yah... > >>>No, you can't. Thats the whole point of how me made the rule. > You have to make the perception roll to try countering the action. > No perception success, no countering.<<< > > Ok, I did miss that point. That makes it a little more balanced, but > it still just wouldn't fit in "official" In Nomine. Yes, it wouldn't be official. But it would fit the spirit of things, at least - humans, as parts of the symphony, can use their connection to subdue the changes to it. > >>>Something else to remember, David, that I think you are > forgetting in your rush to judge this Song as unfitting <<< > > I'm not "rushing" to anything. I CAN'T judge whether any Song is > "unfitting" for any campaign but my own. I am simply expressing my > personal opinion. You disagree. Splendid. Life goes on. Nobody's saying "Use this" or "Don't use this" - I wouldn't get into an arguement like that, and I hope you'd avoid it too. What we were arguing about (I thought) was the effect of the song on balance. You are arguing that it is unbalancing in that it changes the way the balance of power works in In Nomine. I was arguing that it isn't because it doesn't give anybody exceptional power. And you know what? We're both right. We just got caught on what you meant when you said "imbalancing". > >>>And this is a bad thing? It puts humans on more of a level field > with Celestials.<<< > > If that's what you want to do in your campaign, fine. But the way > the game is designed, celestials and humans aren't intended to be on > a "level playing field". Well, it wouldn't level things that much, either. I did a little statistical work on it, and it seems that no matter how much skill you have, without either a) spending essence to boost the CD or b) getting an autosuccess (which would require Corp Forces + Skill of more than 12), you aren't going to succeed more than 40% of the time. It's a pretty damn hard Song to pull off. Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com Malakim of Fire, charged with burning T$R for that stupid copyright shit they pulled. Now all I need to do is Song of Possession on Garfield, and have him sell all the worlds to SJGames on the cheap. GURPS Dragonlance, anyone? How about an In Nomine/Planescape crossover? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 09:25:33 EST From: Neel Krishnaswami Subject: Re: IN> Zina, Free Lilim : Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 23:41:32 +0000 : From: "Nathaniel Eliot" : Subject: Re: IN> Zina, Free Lilim : : > Here's another demon. Zina is a good choice to go Renegade, though : > I expect it's pretty unlikely that she'd want to join Heaven. : > : > A question: demons have traditionally been able to grant youth, : > beauty and health to people who sell their souls. In the main : > rulebook, youth and health can be got with the songs of entropy : > and healing. But how about a long-duration good looks thing? : : Well, it's potentially unbalancing, as beauty is worth character : points. A way around it is to say that "true beauty" isn't something : that can be just given - the most a demon could hope to grant is a +2 : opposite sex beauty, and only if the person doesn't already have it. : I'd say a high power version of Celestial Form should do. Heh. I am of the opinion that a Balseraph of Kobal wrote the character generation rules in IN -- "Come on, there's a point system, so it's got to be balanced, right?" But seriously, if it only works on humans, then it's not too unbalancing, since a) humans are so wimpy that any benefit is automatically balanced, and b) typically only demons would be willing to do this sort of thing for you. Most characters, I think, would be properly leery of trading their immortal soul for a couple of plusses. : Optionally, if you use the rule for Quintessence that somebody : suggested (which, in brief, suggests that character points are : actually a special type of essence, which may be broken down for : regular essence at a 5:1 rate), maybe paying the cost for Celestial : Form in quintessence could make it permanent. Hmm. I think I'd run it at 10:1 myself -- it takes 10 points of essence to remove a note of dissonance, and 3 notes of dissonance come out to one level of Discord, which usually is worth 3 character points a level. Of course, then you need a good reason why 10 Force angels don't just raise their abilities continuously.... : > ---- : > Zina : > Free Lilim : > : > Discord: Jaded/3 : : Pretty good, but you're forgetting something... The 9 Geas/3's all free Lilim start out with? I don't list that under Discords, because you don't get character points from them. It's something to be tracked like hit points, since they can fluctuate so wildly. - ---- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Dec 97 10:55:14 -0500 From: David Wood Subject: IN> A new and disturbing NPC encounter... The four figures sat motionless in the darkened room. Three watched a television screen displaying a black, silent image as sent from the VTR below it which hadn't quite finished playing. The fourth watched the first three. Finally, the tape ran out. White static snow filled their eyes and a cacaphony of white sound filled their ears. They started shifting about in their seats and getting up all at once, almost as if a spell had been broken. One of them got up and flicked the light switch by the door. The fourth turned off the VTR and television, looked at the other three, and asked "So, that's my first demo of the PSAs. What did you think?" One of them got up and stepped back over to his desk, searching for the right words to describe it. The nameplate listed him as William R. Hawthorne (Station Manager), and though he often preferred to be known as Billy Bob, that was only on his off hours; for now it was just Bill. He sat down in his chair, and started searching for the right words. "Well, it was, ummmm..." The other, Simon Kellogg, the programming director, was also not thinking very fast. He added, "It certainly was. Definitely." Feritius -- the humans knew him as Howard Ferris -- opened the blinds on the internal window, letting in more light. It also let in the images of the busy television studio offices, and helped the people inside move around more. They had been sitting still for some time, and needed more signs of life around them to get moving. "I thought the domestic abuse segment was rather effective." Bill shook his head. "'Effective' isn't the word I'd use. Maybe 'pronounced?'" Simon made a countersuggestion. "Perhaps 'visceral?'" Bill made a sort of "ah" sound and then added "'Harsh.'" Simon simply snapped his fingers and pointed, a gesture he reserved to mean "I'm in complete agreement with you there, pal." The fourth man in the office said "Yes, and it's that harshness that makes it effective. The woman in that clip was obviously being abused." He gave his name as Alan Sherrod, but strangely, he preferred being called by his last name. Feritius nodded. "Other abused women will sympathize with her. They'll call and seek help." As a Mercurian of Zadkiel, he felt that it was a good idea to make sure that people who needed protection sought it. Those PSAs would encourage people to seek that protection. Good as he and the other servitors of Zakdiel are, they can't be everywhere. Bill shook his head some more. "Yes, but was it necessary to show the beating? How many women would survive being hit like that with a baseball bat?" Feritius cut in with the answer: "Many, many more than would want to try." Bill simply raised an eyebrow at this. "And the blood?" Simon looked almost queasy upon remembering it. "I don't think I've ever seen a PSA quite that, ummm..." Bill suggested "'Wet?'" Simon countered "'Juicy?'" Bill shook his head, and then stumbled upon it again. "'Sanguine.'" Simon said "Ooh! Good one! Yeah, that kind of sums it up. That spot was awfully bloody." Sherrod looked at Simon in a way that Feritius thought was strange, then began speaking. He started off almost patronizingly, but as he continued he developed an almost messianic (and Feritius could tell, genuine) fervor: "Yes, I showed blood in that spot. Many filmmakers wouldn't because they don't want to be offensive. I don't want to be offensive either, but I also hate half-measures. And none of these spots," he said pointing to the VTR, "go half way. Every one of these spots highlights a danger, and does so in no uncertain terms. The domestic abuse spot, the fire safety spot, the rape prevention and rape counseling spots," -- at which point, Bill shivered noticeably -- "the AIDS awareness spot, the household poison prevention spot, every one of them represents an opportunity to prepare people for the dangers ahead, and make them seek help and protection. And that is the purpose of these spots in the first place." Simon nodded. "I say we give 'em a try." He was sold on them. Bill shook his head. "I'm still not sure. I wouldn't be comfortable showing them before 10 PM." Feritius sensed that he would continue resisting unless he did something, so he took a chance. One of the reasons he took a role as advertising manager at a television station was to promote spots like this. The other was because he heard something about Diabolical activity in the area, and wanted to investigate and head off that threat. Spending Essence could tip his hand, but he had to try and get the spots aired. He spent one Essence on the Celestial Song of Charm, and sought to lower Bill's Will. He succeeded, mercifully. And then he began his own pitch. "Come on Bill, at least one go-around. Just for a week. You can always pull them later if people complain. And in the meantime, who knows, you might actually do some good." Bill sat considering it for a minute, then said "All right, we'll give them a shot. Simon, rack 'em up on carts and start giving them some airplay." Simon, fully (almost strangely) enthused by this point, said "Sure thing, Bill! I'll have them playing by this evening." As everyone left, Feritius noticed Bill's next appointment looking at him strangely. Damn. ... As Feritius was heading for the car, the man outside the office was walking out, very definitely toward him. He decided that this was a good time to use his resonance. The man coming up preferred to be known as Lenny, and that his relationship to the only other person in the parking lot was one of intense curiosity and moderate anger. The latter part became painfully obvious when he drew a pistol. "Hi there. I'd like a word with you." Feritius hummed a few notes, which in Enochian meant "You heard?" A human wouldn't understand, and then he'd have some better idea how to handle the situation. Lenny simply hummed back "Thanks for the confirmation," then continued in English, "It bothers me, you wanting those PSAs aired." Feritius breathed a sigh of relief, since it looked like he really just wanted to talk. "Yes, they're rather harsh, but they might actually serve a good purpose." Lenny shrugged. "And they'll scare people, cause confusion, plus you've never actually seen how they're made, have you? C'mon, fess up. How long have you been working with Sherodizel?" Feritius didn't notice the operative word until moments later. "He only came to -- wait. Sherodizel?" Lenny cracked a smile. "Yeah. Sherodizel, the Demon of PSAs" "I beg your pardon. DEMON?! I had no idea! I knew you servants of Dominic moved fast, but..." Lenny's little smile grew into a wide grin and he asked "Dominic?" "Oh crud. Asmodeus?" With his free hand, Lenny snapped and pointed at Feritius... ===== THE DEMON OF PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENTS It was one of those carefully conceived experiments between members of the Princedom which went horribly awry. Nybbas and Beleth don't necessarily work together; Beleth hates everybody, and Nybbas doesn't think fear "pushes the product." Something convinced Nybbas on one particular occasion, however, that fear *could* sell the product, the product being the Media itself. Give people something they feel that they have to watch for their own safety, and they'll stay glued to their sets. Something similarly convinced Beleth that television was a window into a great many subconsciouses at the same time. (The rumor is that she became fascinated with the nightmares caused by certain frightening movies, so Nybbas sent her the suite of Nightmare on Elm Street movies, which he thought she'd like. She didn't, of course, but it gave her some new inspirations, which some of her servitors still haven't recovered from.) So between the two of them, they gave a fairly new and perfectly loyal Habbalah by the name of Sherodizel a few attunements and set him loose. The goal: spread fear and promote the Media. Sherodizel, however, held onto the delusion that he was still an angel with more tenacity than most, and when given the chance to return to the surface, began using the media to instill fear in order to promote good. Nybbas and Beleth were outraged for the seemingly random way he promoted his goal. Yes, he created television spots that caused nightmares and fear, but they also served their purpose which got the rest of the Princedom slightly ticked off at the two of them. Compound this with the disappearance of Sherodizel's heart from Beleth's tower, and you see where things start getting strange. Some claim that Nybbas or Beleth moved it without telling the other. Some say that Valefor took it and promptly misplaced it. And some say that for all the trouble Sherodizel is causing, Kobal somehow acquired it. The latter has not been proven, but Kobal still chuckles whenever Sherodizel is mentioned. Kobal may simply be laughing at the rest of creation instead; Sherodizel's occasional appearances tend to have a stock pattern to them: he shows up, several angels and demons converge on his location and destroy each other, and Sherodizel calmly walks off to repeat the cycle. It's farce, pure and simple, and though Sherodizel is a Habbalah, he always seems to be surrounded by a whirlwind of entropy and destructive energy to make any Calabite green with envy. Then there's the other rumor, that Lucifer himself saw in Sherodizel's meanderings a greater potential for evil than anyone else can, and put it someplace safe from the entire princedom. Though Asmodeus hunts Sherodizel like the worst renegade, Lucifer still granted Sherodizel the Word of Public Service Announcements, and makes no hint that he will ever rescind it. And who knows, maybe Lucifer is amused by the carnage himself. Here are some stats: CORPOREAL: 4 Str: 10 Agl: 6 ETHEREAL: 6 Int: 12 Pre: 12 CELESTIAL: 5 Wil: 10 Per: 10 Attunements: Habbalah of Nybbas (variant -- rather than a spiritualist, his servant is a film director), Habbalah of Beleth, Calabite of Beleth, Habbalah of Kronos (nobody's quite sure where this one came from), Terror, Subliminal, Nightmare Trigger, probably others which haven't been invented yet. Songs: Charm-Co/2-Et/5-Ce-5, Dreams-Co/6-Et/5-Ce/5, Entropy-Et/4, Form-Ce/5, Healing-All/3, Shields-All/3. Skills: Artistry-Video/5, Comp Op-3, Detect Lies-3, Driving-4, Emote-5, Fast Talk-4, Fighting-4, Lying-3, Move Silently-4, Ranged Weapon-Pistol/5, Running-3, Savoir-Faire-3, Singing-4 ...and salt to taste. =====ENCOUNTERING=SHERODIZEL= Sherodizel is a bit more like a centerpiece than a main course; he sits in the center of the table and everyone around him devours each other. There should be only one or two direct encounters early on with him, then when they recognize his nature, everyone else should come out of the woodwork gunning for him, giving him the opportunity he needs to walk quietly away. He treats "unbeatable opponents" the way children treat "unbreakable toys" -- always good for breaking other opponents. His way is to make people fight each other, which they are inclined to anyway. And as long as he doesn't pose the sort of threat that Legion or Makatiel did, they won't. It's not like Sherodizel is ambitious, either. He is content to wander the Earth, doing what twisted acts his fogged and deluded mind tell him support "the greater good." Enjoy! - -David http://www.bluecrab.org/members/dwood/ Demon of Obfuscation in service to Malphas ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 06:30:28 +1100 From: "Patrick O'Duffy" Subject: IN> A review and a quibble... G'day. Two things I wanted to mention. First, has anyone noticed that once you get your Fighting level to above a 12, kicks are exactly the same as punches? You get a -1 to the roll (which is still an autosuccess), and +1 damage - but you lose 1 point from the check digit due to the skill reduction. This isn't meant to resurrect the combat system arguments (I like the system as written, since I don't care much about combat), but it's a silly glitch. The alternative is just to let the player do +1 damage for a kick with no skill reduction - but you'll get some players who just kick constantly... Second, a quick recommendation for reading - JLA: PARADISE LOST by DC Comics. In this 3-issue series (pts 1 & 2 out now) the angel Zauriel comes to Earth to meet the woman he protects, while having to soil a plot by the Archangel Asmodel to conquer Heaven. Good story, adequate art, and you don't need to have much of a background in DC reading to understand it. It translates reasonably into IN terms (Zauriel is a Seraph, probably of Zadkiel, Asmodel is kind of like Michael if he was Falling)... heck, the angels even use Songs and flaming swords! Worth checking out. PS - having just won $500 for one of my short stories, I'm off to buy The Marches. Finally, enough money to buy gaming stuff! - -- Patrick O'Duffy, Brisbane, Australia Your God drinks peach nectar Eats boiled fruit, can't fart out loud My God arm wrestled Khruschev Eats meat, farts with pride DOUG ANTHONY ALLSTARS, "Commies For Christ" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 19:22:36 EST From: IQJason Subject: Re: IN> It finally happened, damnit... In a message dated 97-12-26 21:51:25 EST, David writes: << ....a religious zealot type has gotten a hold of a copy of In Nomine.>> Yup. Read the post. He also posted his "mods" for DragonLance. <> Now, now, now. That was a joke, I think. More along the lines that the descriptions of the archangels couldn't be accurate and reconciled with his faith. Therefore, they must be lies. Who has more reason to lie about angels than a demon? <> Forgive my lack of eloquence, but...well, duh. The title of the piece was "Christian Mods for In Nomine." It was designed for Christians who *wanted* a more strictly faithful game. <> The scripture thing was mentioned as a sub for songs, actually. He also wanted to see Eli as Jesus. << Isn't there some anti-RPG group we could report this wanker to...?>> I'm gonna cry foul, here. This guy is obviously *pro* RPGs. He's not saying 'don't play,' he's saying "If you wanna play IN in with a Christian mindset, here's a way how." I wish *more* people were like him. <> I've sent him an e-mail asking if that'd be cool by him. I was waiting for a reply before posting it to the list. << Frankly, I don't think that even I can ridicule this enough myself... >> Frankly, I'm not sure that it's ridicule worthy. It's no more "offensive" than the Bright or Dark Victory seeds. I'm nobody's Xtian, but even *I* enjoyed reading it, even if I'll never use it. Hold yer stones. yours, Jason Schneiderman Balseraph of the Media, Demon of Game Criticism (with a sense of fair play) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 19:27:57 -0500 From: David Paul Subject: IN> test test ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 19:49:12 EST From: IQJason Subject: IN> Fwd: What 'he' finally did... This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - --part0_883270153_boundary Content-ID: <0_883270153@inet_out.mail.aol.com.1> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII - --part0_883270153_boundary Content-ID: <0_883270153@inet_out.mail.aol.com.2> Content-type: message/rfc822 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline From: IQJason Return-path: To: in_nomine_l@lists.io.com Subject: Re: What 'he' finally did... Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 19:48:31 EST Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit The infamous post itself. Call it a story seed, if y'like... > Subject: Christian Mods for In Nomine > From: "The Game Master" > Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 13:46 EST > Message-id: <34a3fb80-rebarnes@WWIV-BBS> > > In Nomine - Christian Mods > ---------------------------------- > > Good and Evil > ------------------ > The first and most important mod to In Nomine for the Christian > Player is the idea of Good and Evil. It is assumed that the > players will play a member of an Angelic Choir. In Nomine has > Resonance and Dissonance as a way of measuring a characters > ability to follow his/her nature. There is no mention of Good or > Evil, and no definition for them. In In Nomine, there is a level > of grey area for Angels to work in with regards to picking up > dissonance and it relates to the characters ability to fallow his > nature, and not based on dong Evil. This is wrong according to > the Christian World View. According to the Christian World View, > Angels are Holy. Holy means to be separated from Evil and the > potential for Sin (another word not found in In Nomine). Sin is > defined as any thought, word or deed that violates the Character > of God, in it's broad sense. In it's narrow sense, it means > violating any known Law of God. Anything an Angel does that is > less than Holy, AUTOMATICLLY makes him a Fallen Angel in reality. > BUT, since this is a role-playing game used to have fun and > fellowship with, and since we are mere humans, Dissonance is > possible for an Angel character. Dissonance is NOT sin, but is > doing something that your character would not normally do. If an > Angel developes Discord, his is now AUTOMATICLY a Fallen Angel. > > Fallen Angels Vs. Infernals > ---------------------------------- > Which leads to another problem with the game, the difference > between Fallen Angels and Infernals (Demons). In Christian > theology, Demons ARE Fallen Angels, and to distinguish the two is > not correct. In Christian theology, Angels can continue to fall > (cf. Gen. 6:1-4). However, 1/3 of the Angels fell originally (cf. > Ezek 28:11-19, Isa. 14:3-21). So in order to make things clear in > the books, Fallen Angels would be those that fell AFTER the > initial fall, and Demons would be those who fell with Lucifer. > > Role of Lucifer > ------------------- > The articles from Steve Jackson Games and in the book suggest that > Lucifer is running around doing his own thing, but still in charge > of the Infernals. And this IS true in Christian theology as well. > But Lucifer also has access to Heaven (cf. Job 1), where he lays > accusations before the throne of God against Christians. His > concern has very little, if any, to do with Angels. He could care > less about Angels for all practical purposes. > > Role of God > ---------------- > The book also suggests a "watchmaker" Deist ideal for the role of > God. And no mention of Christ is given at all in the game other > than distinguishing two of the Archangels as being "Christian". > To clarify, we should hold the traditional view of the Trinities > role in life now. > > The Father: From a temporal point of view (us looking at God, not > God looking at us), the Father is the judge on the throne, over > looking the world. History, the weather, etc. etc., are > traditionally viewed as His responsibility. All praise and glory > are to be ascribed to Him. It is His job to answer the prayers of > the Christian humans, and His job to assign tasks to Angels. In > GAME terms, He uses Reagan Management Style... He let's the > archangels do all the mundane assignments and management for Him. > He is too busy with Humans to worry about Angelic affairs, unless > they effect humans. So to never have Him show up as far as Angels > are concerned is fine. But when humans are concerned, that is a > different matter. > > The Holy Spirit: The Holy Spirit (HS) has a lot of jobs with > regards to Humans, one of which is to be the Paraclete > (Testimonial Witness) before the throne of The Father against the > accusations of Satan (Lucifer). But with regards Angels, nothing > is spoken of in Scripture. The d 1,1,1 roll being ascribed to Him > does not violate anything in scripture or Church history that I'm > aware of. > > The Son, Jesus Christ: Jesus is on the right hand of The Father in > heaven as an Advocate for the Christian humans against the accuser > Satan (that is, when He is not busy building the new heavens and > new earth that he is preparing for the Christian humans). More > about the role of Christ follows later. > > This is not to relegate God to a "watchmaker" with regards to > humans, but with regards to Angels, it seems appropriate for a > Role-Playing Game. > > The Role of Essence > ------------------------- > It is NOT gained from the universe, as the book says, but from The > Father through natural Law. No difference in game mechanics, but > definitely a big difference in World View. > > The Role of Choirs > ----------------------- > A BALSERAPH WROTE THE DESCRIPTIONS OF THE CHOIRS! That said; The > write ups on the Choirs and Archangels is twisted and distorted. > It does not present their true natures, though the game mechanics > are the same. Thus the famed half-truth half-lie we always see > from Balseraphs. Angels are HOLY, HUMBLE, and do ALL for the > glory of Christ! > > Malakim are NEVER cruel! A vicious lie from the Balseraph. > > Kyriotates are not "discordians". And they can not posses a Human > being with it's own free will. They can, however, "attach" > themselves to humans and influence them (In Game Mechanics terms, > it works out the same, but a distinction needs to be made for a > Christian World View). Angels never posses anyone, but Demons can > posses non-Christians who allow them to do so. And Demons can so > influence a Christian that he may appear to be possessed. > > Grigori are not "furthest from the Divine" as the Balseraph wrote. > And they were NOT the fathers of the Nephalim.... the Angels that > fathered the Nephalim are locked in The Pit, a place Demons fear > most. When a demon is "destroyed", he is being sent there to > wait with the Locust Demons for the eventual release and then > judgement (cf. Rev. 18-20). Demons do not return to their "heart" > in Hell, but go to The Pit. > > The Children of Grigori > ----------------------------- > The children of Grigori, as described in the book by the > Belseraph, would be the Nephalim, whch were wiped out in the Flood > of Noah (cf. Gen. 5-9). It is simple mythology on the part of > the Belseraph to try to explain away the existence of Vampires, > Mages, Werewolves, Wraths, Gargoyles, and the like. In Fact, each > of these has it's own origin, apart from Angelic forces (left > open for the GM to abuse as he sees fit). > > The Role of Archangels > ----------------------------- > Archangels work as describe in the book. The differance being, > they are HOLY! The section of the book that describes Archangels > was written by a Belseraph to try to defame Archangels. So any > illusion or direct statements about unholy actions or desired > actions upon their charges is a lie of the Belseraph, and the > archangel himself will be the first to deny this. Here is were > the GM can have some fun in disputing the lies written about the > archangel he is playing. And the players can have fun learning > the Truth. > > Archangels cal those under them, "Charges", not "Servants", as the > Belseraph called them, as Archangels are HUMBLE bondservants of > Christ, and they are to protect and encourage those they are in > Charge of. They do not use and abuse Charges like slaves for > their own selfish ambitions as the Balseraph implied in his write > up on them. The Christian World View does not seek it's own (cf. > 1 Cor. 13). > > Archangels are NEVER "Hostile" to one another. They may have some > POLITE disagreements based on their purposes given them by The > Father. Of which they may debate amongst themselves [actually, > they are so polite and holy, it's more of a race to see who will > apologize and submit to the other first!]. They work together for > the cause of Christ. > > Balandine: He did not, nor will ever have, sexual relations with > another Demon or Angel, or ANYONE. The reference to Beleth is a > sick perversion of the real truth, which is the cause for > Balandine's calling for the destruction of Beleth. No real > problems to speak of...he's Freddy Cruger's HOLY twin. > > David: No real problems to speak of, except an Archangel would > never believe in slavery or forced labor. I see him as the > Archangel of Unions. The person of Saint King David is to be > distinguished from David the Archangel. David is the Jimmy Hoffa > of heaven. > > Eli: The lies the Balseraph spoke against Eli are because of whom > Eli really is! Jesus. Jesus Christ is the Creator. Eli is > Aramaic for "my God". Angels who serve Christ directly, were the > ones who came to His aide following His Temptation, and are the > LEAST likely to ever gain any Dissonance. The Balseraph makes a > sharp attempt at defaming Christ by writing about "Eli" as having > "dropped out". He will surely be punished most sever. Eli is > referred to in the Old Testament as "The Angel of The LORD > ("Yahweh")", which theologins agree is the pre-incarnate Christ. > > Gabrial: Islam is listed by the Balseraph as a creation of Yves > with help from Gabrial. They both would have a COW!! Not only is > it not true, but they are both Hostile towards Malphas, Demon > Prince of Factions for coming up with the idea and deceiving > Mohammed. If only a disciple of Christ could have gotten to > Mohammed in time, the schism of Islam would never have happened, > and peace would be in Isreal. Isreal is dear to Gabrail's heart, > as it is the place were HE go to deliver the message of peace to > Mary. He is STILL the heavenly carrier (The Postman of Heaven) > from God, in spite of the mligning the Balseraph game Him.... > basically calling him crazy. In fact, he has a message for the > Balseraph who did the write up, but He can't seem to find him > yet... > > Janus: He is not a Theif!! And neither are his Angels! They may > MOVE something... ever loose your keys or misplace your remote > control for the TV? His Angels are the ones who will help to test > the humans with this sort of thing. The Balseraph was trying to > defame Janus and make him appear Chaotic. In fact, God wants > change, but change is to be done in Order according to His plan. > The order from God's point of view may appear to Chaotic from our > temporal point of view as humans. Janus is the Jim Carry or hyper > Robbin Williams of heavan. > > Jean: the Balseraph levied one of the biggest accusations anyone > can lay against the heavenly host...Pride. Jena is a very HUMBLE > angel, and prefers to not even be called an Archangel at all. In > fact, he does not control he Creative ideas of mankind at all. > Man was created in the image of God (cf. Gen. 1:27), and thus is > creative of a free will, and that creativity is not under any > control, save that of God's soverignty. Jean does not look down > upon mankind at all due to this fact. In fact, he is so humbled > by their ability to create (something he doesn't have, and none of > the angels have), that he can barely keep up with the new > technologies and innovations man comes up with....not the other > way around as the Balseraph claimed. Jean is like the Jim Nieh > the science guy of heaven. > > Jordi: Angels of Jordi value human life more so than animals, but > animals are their Charge. This is different from the write up by > the Balseraph, as he indicates that Animal life is more important > to Jordi. Animal life Is IMPORTANT to God and to the angels of > Jordi, as ALL LIFE IS A GIFT FROM GOD. Specificly, life is defind > by having blood... thus, generally speaking, incects, protazoa, > viruses, and plants don't count where Jordi and his angels are > concerned. It is their job to protect and preserve life, defined > as having blood. Also, Jordi prefers vessels of Sheep, Deer, > Rodentia and Canine, not Cats, as the Belseraph stated. Dogs, > Raccoons, Rabbits, Gerbils, Guinea Pigs, and other cute cuddlies > are what Jordi favors. Anything soft, fuzzy and cute that doesn't > have a prideful attitude (like cat's do). When Gabriel stopped > Abraham from killing Isaac, and God provided a Ram, who do you > think was the Ram? Yep, it was Jordi's Vessel, ready to be > sacrificed as a temporary covering for sins of Abraham's family. > Jordi is the Jim Fowler of heaven.... protecting God's "wild" > Kingdom. > > Marc: Marc DOES NOT USE SLAVES!! A vicious lie!! The treasures > of heaven are GOOD WORKS and the SAINTS themselves! Marc is the > archangel put in charge of helping move commerce, but it is the > LOWEST JOB in heaven... but he does it with Humble HOLY > submission. The heavenly IRS's job is to prompt people to GIVE > and do GOOD WORKS, so the heavenly treasure will increase. The > Allen Greenspan of Heaven. > > Michael: He is not a Seraph, but a one of a kind Choir of > angels... of which he, and the pre-incarnate Christ is (and was in > Christ's case), called ARCHANGEL. He is the leader of the entire > army of angels in heaven. He is also known as the Angel of Salem > (latter named Jerusalem). As opposed to his description by the > Balseraph, he is the Angel of PEACE, not war. Peace is gained > through supirior firepower (Jesus's sacrifice), therefore the > effects of being an Angel of Michael are the same in game > mechanics terms. All the other Archangels get their orders from > Him, as He is God's "Commander and Chief" of the heavenly host. > Being an angel of Michael is like working for the joint chiefs of > staff of heaven's office. > > Novalis: HE is not a "flower child" as the Balseraph stated, and > his angels do not go to Grateful Dead concerts, unless they have a > good reason to. They are more often seen at board meetings and > peace talks trying to get the humans to work together to solve > their problems peacefully. To the Balsereph's credit, Novalis was > heavily involved in the 60's Jesus movement. To Novalis'credit, > almost all the wars in the last 50 years have been won at the > peace talk table. I think of him more like a heavenly Jimmy > Carter. > > Yves: The "George Burns" angel of Destiny is not much different > then his description except: He is a Cherub. He was not create > first, Michael was. He did not name God, God named God (a > discussion within the Trinity came up with the name; Yahweh - I AM > for The Father, Holy Spirit for Holy Spirit, and Yeshuah (Jesus - > Yahweh Saves) for the Son). The Balseraph who wrote him up, was > trying to get the reader to think that Yves is the powerful > manipulator. A being near omniscience who invents religions for > humans to follow, and who is a dark background for the light to > show up on...gee...who does that sound like? Could it > be...hmmm...SATAN! The Balseraph was trying to get the reader to > think good thoughts about Satan through using the description of > innocent Yves. Yves, in reality, is the archangel of Randomness. > What number comes up on the die when you roll it is under the Law > of Randomness which God put Yves in charge of. So the game > mechanics of Yves' angels are the same. > > The Marches > ----------- > The "Marches" are the realm between the dimension of Temporal > Reality, and the dimension of Essential Reality. Temporal Reality > is this World we live in as humans. Essential Reality (also > called Eternal Reality) is the dimension of Heaven and Hell. The > Marches is the realm of ideas. C.S. Lewis' Narnia Chronicles, > J.R.R. Tolken's fantasy works, Steven W. Lawhead's fantasy works, > etc.. all dwell here, in the realm of ideas, The Marches. Ideals > in the Marches can be good, evil or indifferent. So the existence > of pagan gods, etc., is in the realm of The Marches... the realm > of ideals. God may allow an ideal in the marches to cross-over > into Temporal Reality for one reason or another, and the Angels > may have to deal with it (game seeds for GM's). How do you know > what a Square is? Because in the realm of ideals, there exists > the ideal square in your mind. Thus when you see a square, you > know it's a square because it matches the ideal you have in your > mind. Weird stuff for GM's to play with. > > > Numinous Corpus > --------------- > An appropriate HOLY appearance is available as determined by the > GM. For example; "Horns" can be a Halo of Light. A "Tail" can be > an independent Flaming Sword (cf. Gen. 3:24). There are > additional Numinous corpus available for Angels as determined by > the GM. I know of no scripture to support Numinous corpus, but > that is not to say that they can't be used for game play purposes. > But I have a real hard time with Angels having hoofs and spiked > tongues... the appearance would have to be HOLY some how. > > Use of Scripture > ---------------- > The use of scripture is never really discussed in In Nomine, but > in the Bible, we find that Angels and Christ used scripture on > each other a lot. The Temptation story of Jesus, found in Matthew > 4:1-11, were Jesus (Eli) was tempted by Satan (Lucifer), we see a > "war" of scripture from memory taking place. To duplicate this > battle of memory verses, the Christian game should include just > that. For lack of a better term for this form of intellectual > combat, I call it ScriptCasting. If a player wishes he can recite > from memory a Scripture verse to subdue an opponent or monster. > The character can do this in place of a song. The verse recited > must be recited with no more than 10% mistakes. You can't recite > the same verse ever again against the same opponent or type of > opponents. It is up to the GM weather you can use a particular > verse again or not. When spoken, the opponent is subdued as > dictated by the GM. The GM may even have some sort of literal > sense of the verse befall the opponent. It is up to the GM how > the outcome works. The GM may disallow certain verses that are > inappropriate or are too short (ie. John 11:35 "Jesus Wept"). > Also, some opponents may take SEVERAL verses to stop..... GM's > discretion. > > Final Word > ---------- > These guidelines should help you in playing a game of In Nomine > from a Christian World View, and not from a secular World View. I > hope you enjoy the game, and if you have any comments or questions > about these, please feel free to e-mail me at rebarnes1@juno.com > yours, also hoping you enjoy the game, - -J - --part0_883270153_boundary-- ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #533 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.