From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed Dec 31 17:19:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA09944 for ; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 17:19:26 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id RAA14160 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 17:10:56 -0600 Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 17:10:56 -0600 Message-Id: <199712312310.RAA14160@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #541 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, December 31 1997 Volume 01 : Number 541 In this digest: Re: IN> The Company in IN Re: IN> My Thoughts on the Song of Stability. RE: IN> Benson (Alien Choirs) IN> Kyrios of Jordi and their 22 cats RE: IN> The Company in IN Re: IN> My Thoughts on the Song of Stability. Re: IN> My Thoughts on the Song of Stability. Re: IN> Reliever becoming Angels Re: IN> Grigori Re: IN> In Nomine Christian Mods IN> Grigori IN> Balseraphs IN> My Thoughts on the Song of Stability. IN> Humans in the Symphony IN> [STORY] "Your services will no longer be required." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 12:40:23 -0500 From: Highway Star Subject: Re: IN> The Company in IN At 13:38 -0600 12/30/97, Bob the Dancing Monkey wrote: >Oooo. Hard choice. My first RPG love was Over the Edge. The writing for >both is stupendous; both create a very specific world with which to inflict That's probably one reason why I'll hold off on picking up OvtE. I don't think anybody around here is ready for yet another game-world just quite yet... >upon your players. PC body count has a tendency to run very high on both >of them (Call of Cthulhu is a little nicer, actually; many PCs I know of >didn't survive the airport on Al Amarja in OvtE - and every new character >must go there...). For the purposes of running a Black Ops of the I do think that's the first time that of CoC being "nicer" in terms of body count then anything else, except perhaps Paranoia.:) >paranormal type, you really can't get better than Delta Green. Not only >does it uncover a _much_ darker conspiracy than GURPS: Black Ops does >(funny that, what with the Mythos hanging over Delta Green's head), it >gives you whole appendices dedicated to law enforcement agencies in >America, the basics of the Classified system (fantastic for props), and >some really well-written bits to set the mood (the piece on Millenial NYC >made my hair stand on end). That definitely sounds like something that would be good to pull in for Black Ops. I started working on fitting Cthulhu into IN, along with the various other bits and pieces I'd like to add just to make my game that much more...odder..as I get closer and closer to actually running it. I think I've worked up a slightly plausible reason for Cthulhu, but I just have to sit down and make some decisions about various "secret" human organizations and the celestial influence on them. In particular, how the Illuminati and The Company would fare in a world actively influenced by angels and demons. Also, I'm trying to figure out how the celestials would view these organizations, or if they even know about them. What happens when a mole reveals to ARGUS that various demons and angels have infiltrated The Company? (If anybody's keeping count, I'm throwing in bits and pieces of Illuminati, Black Ops, IOU, Call of Cthulhu, and Paranoia into my IN game. More and more stuff gets sucked in as it goes around, perhaps eventually turning my campaign into the black hole of game material...BWAHAHAHA! Time travel! Dimensional travel! Oh no!) > It also probably fits a bit better into IN than GURPS: Black Ops >due to >the serious discussions of moral decay, decadence, and hunger for power; >the Mythos, it explains, is all around us today - it needs no cult members >anymore to propagate it. I don't know, I kind of saw Black Ops as a fairly dark background if you ran it right...sure, your characters are much more skilled then most in such a game, but they're still grossly outnumbered and slowly losing the battle (in particular against the brainsuckers). However, I've never considered IN that dark. Sure, it has some degree of Darkness in it if it has Cthulhu...but in my background that I'm working on, Heaven has defeated him once before. It the Great Cthulhu got out and decided to do whatever he wants to do on Earth, Heaven and Hell would probably join forces to get rid of him. Well, maybe all of them other then Saminga, but I don't like him anyway. He's got no *style*...(oh, hell, is Nybbas trying to steal me away from Andre?!). >On this count, there's some interesting stuff written by one of the >Sub-Genii (I think it was for an X-Day Drill '97 rant, but I don't remember >exactly) discussing the deception of ID4 and MiB; you recall that though >the aliens were tough, humanity dispatched them with relative ease. What >better way to soften up mass culture than with a couple of feel-good movies >about the inherent superiority of humanity? That's a good point, I hadn't really thought of that. Do you happen to have the URL for the rant? Of course, in ID4 and Mars Attacks! (which was on HBO as I left for work today) humanity takes a huge battering before winning. In ID4, a number of major cities are destroyed, along with untold numbers of people, equipment (just how many fighters did they lose, all in all?), bases, etc. They still have to deal with the rebuilding. Also, the humans did manage to destroy the aliens fleet, it seems - but did they get all of 'em? What about individual fighters and aliens that survive the wrecks, etc? In Mars Attacks! they won, after the Martians slaughtered how many millions and razed how many cities and landmarks. Humanity also has to consider that there's still all the Martians on *Mars*, and they might not be happy to know that their entire invasion force has been wiped out. Humans have the weapon of Martian mass-destruction, but where there's a weapon, there seems to inevitably be an armor. (Nuclear weapons are one exception to this, except for the extremely high political cost in actually using them - their own destructive capability is their target's armor.) However, let's try to pull this back to In Nomine. First off, here's *my* background for In Nomine (obviously not canon). Dan - - if you're reading this, feel free to read it, as it won't affect the campaign right away that much, but I expect you to show some discretion when using said information in the game...:) In the beginning, the Universe was created. BANG! God "awoke" and found Himself alone in the Universe. He looked around, and saw it growing and evolving. In a number of different places, He saw life beginning. "Hey," He said, "This is pretty cool. But I don't have anybody to share it with." So he decided to create a friend. Not necessarily an equal, 'cause God is jealous, and wants to be feared, and isn't about to make something that could His ass. So He messed around a little bit, experimented, and made a form of life unique and more powerful then anything else in the Universe - except for Himself, of course. "Hi, I'm God," He said. "Who are you?" "Uh...I guess I'm Cthulhu." "Would you be my friend?" "Nope." Cthulhu proceeded to snack on a growing civilization in the nearest star system, and playing around with their life forms. "Oh, cool, I think I'll call these Yog-Sothoths." God was pissed at Cthulhu, and decided to make new friends. He tried again. This time, He made Yves. Yves was quite perturbed to find Cthulhu mesing around in the Cosmos. He convinced God to concentrate His efforts on one planet - a rather insignificant little brown-green-blue planet called Earth. "Here, God," said Yves, "Is where the destiny of the Universe is most important. It is here that all things will revolve around. These people are the future." God saw the wisdom in Yves' words, and agreed. He proceeded to create the Host, so that His Symphony would be stronger. Cthulhu was far away, and not a problem at the time. While God was more powerful, He was tired from all the creating He had been doing, and decided to ignore him. Then Cthulhu decided to visit Earth. God didn't think that was too appropriate, and the battle was joined. The Heavenly Host found they could not destroy him, so they imprisoned him, and destroyed most of his creations. Uriel and Michael both gained great notice here. After the battle, Lucifer came to God. "God," he said, "Do You think it was right to just slaughter all the minions of Cthulhu? Sure, *he* was pretty much evil, but his minions might be capable of good." God did not like being challenged. "Lucifer," He said, "if you don't stop this blasphemy there'll be hell to pay." Lucifer went down to Earth and talked to Cthulhu. "I think it's unfair how God treated you," he said, "but in particular, how God treated your minions." "You're right," said Cthulhu. "Come here and let's have a chat." When Lucifer returned to Heaven, he was a changed Angel. He thought and thought and thought, and then plotted, and finally marched up to God and said exactly what was on his mind. God was furious. "What in the hell do you think you're doing, Lucifer?" He asked. "Is this some kind of joke? You're acting like you have free will or something." "Maybe I do, God," he responded. "I think that a number of my fellow angels agree with me." "Then," said God, "they can join you in Hell. Oh, Michael! We have a new war for you!" Once again, the battle was joined, and Cthulhu was pleased with the results. Afterwards, he noticed that Heaven had a great weapon in Yves, and decided to even the odds a little bit. He influenced a servitor of Yves who was on Earth, encouraging him to wrack up more and more dissonance until he fell. But when he fell, Cthulhu managed to preserve his sense of the Symphony, and then relayed a message to Lucifer. "You might be interested in this one, Lucifer." And thus, Kronos joined the legions of hell. In the meantime, Humanity was growing up. But that's a story for a different time. As you can see, however, this opens up a great number of different possibilities. Cthulhu is around, and trying to manipulate Hell to get back at Heaven. Hell realizes this eventually, and is torn between wanting help, and not wanting help. Aliens obviously do exist, under the jurisdiction of God, but whether or not He actively rules them is another matter. The ethereal gods are still there, brought into existence by the thoughts of man. God couldn't take them head-to-head on Earth, at first, because of the strong beliefs by man. Yves convinced him the long term approach was best, and was right. The Illuminati are plotting to free humanity from being ruled either by Heaven or Hell. They move in the shadows, trying to create a world truly ruled by humans, but are forced often to make pacts with one god or God or another to prevent a different faction from winning. Kyriotates and Shedim that can access the minds and memories of their host often get a surprise when they accidently possess an Illuminated human. They do find IOU to be quite annoying, as many Illuminated humans have rather high Wills. The Company was formed as per Black Ops. Shortly thereafter, they also learned the existance of the celestials. New recruits are watched *very* carefully to prevent celestial infiltration - there is no privacy at the Academy. Behavior, particularly of ARGUS, is also watched carefully, in case of telepathic control by the Greys, influence from Cthulhu (whom they discovered just after the Greys - he was part of the reason of their formation), or Kyriotate/Shedim/Song of Possession control of the host. Most combat ops prefer to just blow away the vessel of a celestial, but Technology claims to have several different pieces of equipment that can soul-kill a celestial. The Company does occasionally ally with a celestial force, usually angelic, but they're simply working for the preservation of humanity and the status quo; the occasional Hell alliance is inevitable, particularly for Technology. Vapula is much more willing to share then Jean. SeanMike - -- Sean Michael Whipkey, smw4s@virginia.edu Weldon Cooper Center for Public Service, Publications Div. 804/924-4185 (or -4188) voicenet, 804/982-5536 fax http://www.virginia.edu/~cpserv/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 12:03:50 +0000 From: tom timberlake Subject: Re: IN> My Thoughts on the Song of Stability. Querent wrote: > > Hmmmm...that's true... > > I'm sold. As I've stated before, it's not so much the abilities of > Soldiers I was after in the first place, more of a look into the > physics of a metaphysical reality. If we can agree that: > > A: The Symphony is maleable. (Clearly indicated by the interaction of > Celestials and human Fates/Destinies.) > > B: Soldiers are a part of the Symphony, set apart by their ability to > perceive the Symphony. > > C: Since Soldiers are part of the Symphony, changes to the Symphony > can drasticly affect a Soldier. > > D: Soldiers can alter the Symphony further, through use of Songs, > Essence use, etc... > > So, if Soldiers are the Symphony concious of itself, and Soldiers can > manipulate a maleable Symphony, is it at all possible that they may be > able to manipulate it in such a way that the Symphony becomes more > resistant to change? Like a defense mechanism? > > Admittedly, I knew it would at least partially alter the game > mechanics were this true, but just because there's no mechanics set up > for it doesn't mean it won't work. Certainly not in an SJGames > publication. So the question then becomes either > A: What are the game mechanics for such a manipulation? (Which I > posted one answer for.) > B: What is the flaw in my argument, which I've based on postulates set > forth in the game. > > This argument may singlehandedly be the biggest factor in wanting to > dump the whole idea, I don't like it that much either. But if there's > no solution to question A, what then is the answer to question B? > Hmmmm....My take on this would be to have the CD of a succesful Song of Stability add to the target number for the Celestial's Song [the one being countered]. The Soldier [Sinners and Saints need not apply] still has to make a Lilim-like Perc. roll to spot the Song before he can do anything. Seems the Children of Eden, the Sons and Daughters of Adam and Eve, are somewhat alike to the Children of Lilith--both need to perceive before they can use their Gifts. The Lilim have to perceive a Need before they can set their hooks and get a Geas, they can't just guess or deduce the Need. Likewise, a Soldier must perceive a Song before they can stabilize the Symphony, they can't just guess or deduce the Song. They have to perceive the Song so they can sense how to reinforce the Symphony's status quo. Since they are acting in the interest of the status quo, their Song of Stability only makes a one-point disturbance, which will likely go unnoticed by anyone other than the Celestial being countered. Heck, if the Celestial fails on a disturbance-spotting role, they may not even notice that the bar was raised on them artificially, making their performance of their Song harder to succeed at. Of course, if the Celestial _does_ notice the highjump bar being raised on them [the Symphony being reinforced], the Soldier better get ready, 'cause they are about to be used to illustrate the principle, that humans and Celestials shouldn't go toe-to-toe with each other, 'cause the human will end up being so-much who-hash when the Celestial gets through with the human. Of course, this is just my 2 cents worth. tom timberlake, sometimes role of James the Stone Malakim Quai Chang Cain---"I am James; I will help you." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 13:47:08 EST From: "Perry M. Lloyd" Subject: RE: IN> Benson (Alien Choirs) Very nice... I like the "diminsished" bit. What does it mean, or have I missed something? - -Perry Perry M. Lloyd "The humans do not start from that direct perception of Him which we, unhappily, cannot avoid. They have never known that ghastly luminosity, that stabbing and searing glare which makes background of permanent pain to our lives." -Screwtape (From "The Screwtape Letters", by C.S. Lewis) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 07:08:58 -0600 From: rbeall@fdldotnet.com (Grim88) Subject: IN> Kyrios of Jordi and their 22 cats >Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 01:47:27 +0000 >From: Sam Kington >But OTOH this is a pretty unbalanced character you have here, in many >respects. For a 9-force angel, there are only four forces left for >Ethereal and Celestial; assuming just one Ethereal Force (now that's one >dumb, MTV-attention-span bunch of cats), we've got just three Celestial >Forces left to play with. To get anything like a sensible Will, to avoid >the Kyrio bouncing off cats all day, say a Will of 8, we get a >Perception of 4, which is pretty bad for an angel. One of the >traditional advantages of possessing/controlling a large number of >animals is that you can fan them out and hear everything that's going >on; this guy won't. > >This is presuming, of course, that the angel is just a combat monster - >tricky in itself, for a Kyrio. Unless you've got a *lot* of Essence, It's not a combat monster, but I will agree with you that It is unbalanced. I wanted a character with a short attention span, but one who could be many places at once. It hasnt' actually possessed that many creatures yet, and probably rarly will (for the GM's sake, if nothing else) It's a fairly smart celestial, it's mainly his Perception and Precision that are lacking. His somewhat low(6) Will has caused a few problems..but nothing major yet. On the Corporeal front, it's built more for speed than strength, although neather stat is lacking. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 09:21:49 From: Jeff Miller Subject: RE: IN> The Company in IN >Ghost-busters, anyone? A device that forces a celestial from its vessel >and then can be used to zap the Hell out of the celestial? > Hey, neat! The second device doesn't do Soul hits, it simply traps Celestials. Thus, you blow away the body, and pin the Celestial with the beams, then open the trap and capture it. Heh heh. Jeff Miller Program Director/Webmaster for Agamemcon II Burbank Airport Hilton -- May 22-24, 1998 Contact Info: 24161-H Hollyoak (714)643-8352 Laguna Hills, CA 92656 www.primenet.com/~shadocat/agamemcon.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 15:23:30 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> My Thoughts on the Song of Stability. > In any case, the Song of Stability brings up the whole issue of > exorcism, which I don't recall being addressed in the canon yet. > Surely it ought to be, in some form. And surely it would be high > on the list of Soldiers' interests. Well, it is in canon, but it's a little esoteric; its one of the special Sorcerer abilities. It takes a *lot* of points to learn, and only works against Shedim, demons w/ Song of Possesion, and (maybe) Kyriotates and other angels. I don't have my books with me, so I can't give you a specific page reference. Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com In the fourth grade, Mrs. Watkins gave me a D in Mathematics. I was not a happy camper. Now she's a blood thirsty demon from the seventh plane of hell, and I have a Mini gun with 2000 rounds of HESH ammo. Mrs. Watkins...Class is back in session. - Heavy Ordinance (http://members.iquest.net/~ericg/games/heavy.html) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 15:23:30 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> My Thoughts on the Song of Stability. > >A: The Symphony is maleable. (Clearly indicated by the > >interaction of Celestials and human Fates/Destinies.) > > I will accept A > > >B: Soldiers are a part of the Symphony, set apart by their > >ability to perceive the Symphony. > > Set apart from whom? Normal Humans? Normal humans CAN percieve > the Symphony, they just aren't very good at it. They can control > the expenditure of essence. Well, not according to canon. They can expend essence, but only all at once, and they can't percieve the Symphony at all. Those abilities are added when they become Soldiers. Of course, you could say (and in fact, this is the way I look at it) that every human is has the potential to be a Soldier, and becoming a soldier is more a matter of awakening that potential than adding anything. > >D: Soldiers can alter the Symphony further, through use of Songs, > >Essence use, etc... > > This is a better statement than B. I am not sure what B means. I > don't think that D sets them apart from humans except that they have > been taught something. If in your world, soldiers are entirely > different beings from humans, then you may have something. I think the thought was that a Soldier has had a bit of the Divine or Infernal added to them. It certainly would have precidence in the game. > Yes, it is possible, but why would this require being the Symphony > conscious of itself? Also Soldiers arent THE SYMPHONY only part of > it. Why couldn't celestials, being able to manipulate a maleable > Symphony, make the Symphony more resistant to change. Well, my thought is that making the Symphony resistant requires a more intimate connection to it than celestials can have. An angel might be able to counter the effects of a Song through an ability, but it should be harder and more specialized - the equivalent of inverting a sound wave to cancel that wave out. In other words, anybody can sing a Song in reverse to stop the original Song (this was a house rule I saw a bit back) but only somebody with the connection to the Symphony can stabilize the Symphony against anything. Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com In the fourth grade, Mrs. Watkins gave me a D in Mathematics. I was not a happy camper. Now she's a blood thirsty demon from the seventh plane of hell, and I have a Mini gun with 2000 rounds of HESH ammo. Mrs. Watkins...Class is back in session. - Heavy Ordinance (http://members.iquest.net/~ericg/games/heavy.html) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 15:23:30 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> Reliever becoming Angels > >In canon, human and celestial souls are qualitiatively different - a > >human, no matter how powerful, is still a human. Humans come back as > >Saints; they don't disturb the symphony, and lack a resonance, but > >otherwise are like 7 Force celestials. That's the closest you will > >get in canon In Nomine. > > Okay, don't worry about what canon for these next questions: > > * What if an undead wanted to become POWERFUL. It's no longer human, > and it's not celestial. Could it achieve similar power to that of a > Saint? [If it's not crushed by a superior first, of course.] It doesn't seem to be especially tricky. What *would* be tricky is undoing the damage that the mummification process wrought on their soul. From a semi-personal point of view, I certainly hope so. I've got an interesting mummy character that would be a prime candidate for this. I'm just waiting for Lucifer to appear and offer a boon... > *If it served Heaven, could it become a Saint? (or Saint equivalent) Assuming the undeath could be reversed, sure. Otherwise, it's just an undead in service to Heaven, instead of Hell. Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com "Five seconds later, I'm getting the upside of 15Kv across the nipples. (These ambulance guys sure know how to party)." - BOFH ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 16:34:52 -0500 From: "Rev.TOC, Winner of the Arfie Mansfield Award for 1997" Subject: Re: IN> Grigori gibsonc@NKU.EDU wrote: > > problems like this occur too often in rpg's. Players too frequently > testing the GM. My solution to this would be tell them no, that as of now > no one can play that choir. On the other hand my roommate and DM would > make up the stat's himself and then allow them to be played. > Heh. I used to get problems like this all the time. It's only a problem until you realise that having no information is actually just a license to crap on your players from a great height. You can make up anything you like and they can't look in the rulebook and point out where you've got it wrong, or force you to say "well, in MY universe its different" (always a cop out I feel). Example: in my horror game, oine of the players kept badgering me to let him kill off his current character (a psi) and play a "Highlander" style Immortal instead. I kept turning him down until I realised what I could do to him, so I wrote up the rules and stats and kept them ready. About a year later the player's character died, only to reawaken later with the realisation that he was an Immortal. The player was something of a powergamer and was overjoyed to find himself playing a powerful, psionic Immortal who had retained his considerable telekinetic and telepathic powers. Game balance nightmare right? Wrong. Because the player had no information about Immortals other than what he had seen in movies, he had no idea what was coming next. The oldest and most powerful of the world's Immortals had been watching him for some time, as they can sometimes sense those who have yet to suffer their first death. Now that he was fully Immortal, they were horrified at the existance of such a powerful potential enemy, and united to defeat him. I let the player run amok for a couple of sessions, then let him have it. The resulting sessions were some of the most powerful and dramatic we have ever had, as our hero struggled to save those around him from the forces trying to cut his support away. Though it ended tragically, the group still count it as the most rewarding roleplaying experience of their lives. It taught us all valuable lessons. It taught me that there are no problems, only opportunities, and it taught my players to NEVER trust a smiling GM. Happy New Year! Rev.TOC - -- The Reverend "The Other Chris" Not Subbie...Not Dommie...Just Pervy UIN # 4814586 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 17:00:40 -0800 From: The Saint of Killers Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Christian Mods > >>>At any rate, I didn't like the masculocentric bullshit he pulled > with the Archangels, which IMO was worse than any innate > "Christianising" in that there is no scriptural base for it. Only > slightly less offensive was his insistance that angels are all moral > upstanding guys who would never do anything nasty, which completely > ignores all precident. Like my .sig says "all this time spent > praising your lord, but always with one wing dipped in blood. Would > you ever want to meet an angel?" The second is just hypocritical; > the first is patently offensive and deserving (in mind) of the heaps > of scorn that Redneck felt necessary to heap on him.<<< I don't know how everyone can be scared of this Christian who preaches love and such, when there's this guy right here whose basis of the Penteteuchial Triumverate (that being the three religions who generally agree on the events of the Pentateuch) is from a damn MOVIE! Yeah yeah, I'm being tongue in cheek now, but c'mon. In my Philosophy of Religion class there was actually a kid who did a report on angels based on the movie The Prophecy. The teacher of the class was a jesuit. When his speech was over, the teacher was standing there with his mouth open, the kids were sorta 'huh'ish and I was laughing my ass off. I guess I was the only one who had seen the movie. The same kid did a report on vampires based on Vampire the Masquerade. Gotta check your sources, folks. sok I donno if this thread is still going. I'm 120 posts behind and my mail reader's gone all crazy. I can't delete old mail or move it to other folders. Stupid mail reader. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 17:39:44 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Grigori You do get a couple more clues about the Grigori in the Angelic Player's Guide: they were able to affect the corporeal realm without creating a disturbance (or as much of one, anyway), and they were able to interbreed with humans without the aid of the Songs of Fruition. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 17:39:40 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Balseraphs >>>Forgive this repetition but I need some input on these Fallen. They are paranoid and don't tell the whole truth. Does this imply that they both only and always tell half truths that might be tainted by their own paranoia. Secondly, a Balseraph would never lie from his own perspective. Does this imply that they can never use their resonance for convience or without some preparation?<<< A Balseraph *never* lies....from his OWN perspective. Yes, this means that a Balseraph always believes what he says, *at the moment he says it*. This is why he gains dissonance for doing something that contradicts his statements, because he is proving to himself that he just lied, yet he believes he can't lie, so....Agh! Dissonance! In other words, anytime a Balseraph says something which is (from an external point of view) a lie, he IS using his resonance. Note that Balseraphs are unique in that on a badly-failed resonance roll, their resonance does not completely shut down for a period of hours, they just become unable to tell that same lie to the same person. Otherwise, they'd become incapable of lying without taking dissonance, and since they're so used to creating false truths ("The truth is whatever I say it is") they'd be completely hosed.... >>>an example: The ballroom is full of people many being security. The Calabim and the Balseraph need to kidnap the wealthy senator. The balseraph conjurs a plan and scream the room is on fire, using his resonance to influence the crowd. -<<< His resonance could only affect a number of people equal to his Celestial Forces (though other people in the crowd might likely believe a cry of "Fire!" anyway). But at the moment he screams it, *he* believes the room is on fire, even though some part of himself realizes it's not. Balseraphs are twisted. >>>Now could he reenter the room or is he too, convinced it is on fire?<<< He doesn't have to believe it's on fire when he reenters the room, only when he cried "Fire!" Now if he contradicts himself, he takes dissonance, but he's not necessarily contradicting himself by reentering a room he claimed was on fire. ("I was trying to save people!") And if he keeps circulating through the room saying "The room is on fire!", sure, he believes it....but he's also quite capable of believing that *he* won't be harmed, and again, he can explain to doubters that he's trying to make sure everyone gets out... >>>If bob the balseraph took a role and needed to use his resonance to convince the police he was a private investigator does he at that moment forget that he was serving a prince?<<< No, he doesn't forget he's serving a Prince. He just believes at that moment that he's serving a Prince by taking the Role of a private investigator. Now if a Balseraph of the Game tells another demon "I don't serve Asmodeus, I serve Belial", then at that moment, he DOES serve Belial...in his mind. But that doesn't have to last any longer than it takes the words to leave his lips, and as long as he does nothing to directly contradict his claim while others are under his sway, he's fine. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 17:39:43 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> My Thoughts on the Song of Stability. >>>My argument would be they cannot manipulate the symphony as such. They may be able to change the symphony back to the state it was but they cannot affect THE SYMPHONY directly in a meaningful way. Only parts of it. A good example is the song of healing. I use Celestial Light (or whatever) to fire a laser beam at Joe Human (bong). A soldier comes and does a song of healing to remove the damage from the laser (bong). Each act changes the symphony from its current state, although the second change is likely to restore it to what it was before the first change. Am I making any sense?<<< Perfectly! You've pretty well expressed my thoughts. I'd add two things, though: 1) Soldiers *are* qualitatively different from other humans in that they have more Forces than is usually possible for a mortal. It's this that allows them to learn Songs and such -- a human with 4 Forces cannot normally learn a Song no matter who tries to teach him (though I'd never say never...) 2) I have no objection to a Song that nullifies other Songs, resonances, Essence expenditures, etc. It's a perfectly valid idea. I just object to the notion that this would be some sort of inherently mortal ability that celestials could not possess. And I *like* Earl's notions on exorcism! - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 17:39:48 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Humans in the Symphony I'd say you're not far off. But there *were* Words before humanity -- Creation definitely springs to mind. It's just that humans provide many, many MORE Words, and they also provide limitless opportunities to strengthen (or weaken) a Word. There might even be a sort of division between those Word-bound whose Words don't require humans to exist at all (like the Angel of Thunderstorms, or the Demon of Erosion), and those whose Words are meaningless without humans (like the Angel of Schoolteachers, and the Demon of Scientology). And of course, Words are flexible things....they can be reinterpreted and made to encompass something other than what they originally did, but usually only through the agency of humanity. So the Demon of Erosion was happily doing his work long before humans even *had* agriculture, just wearing down the works of the angels for the fun of it, but when Erosion became significant to humans, suddenly he had a vast "audience", so to speak....humans who could be directly impacted by erosion, humans who would try to combat erosion, humans who would consider erosion very important, and thus make his Word that much more important. The Angel of Thunderstorms, likewise, might have once created Thunderstorms just to manifest God's majesty amidst naturally occuring phenomenon, but now there are humans who fear Thunderstorms, and humans who love Thunderstorms, and both of them affect his Word greatly. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Dec 97 18:02:52 -0500 From: David Wood Subject: IN> [STORY] "Your services will no longer be required." Quoth "" on Tue, 30 Dec 1997 13:18:03 - -0500... >At 11:43 -0500 12/30/97, Perry M. Lloyd wrote: >>Can a celestial be soul-killed by technology? Ummm... well... >>Conservative answer: No. >Which would lead to the "Well, at least we put 'em in Trauma" solution, >unless the bad guys are Malakim...uh, oh. >"We killed him! Ugh, he's back!" BLAM BLAM BLAM "We killed him! Ugh, >he's back!" BLAM BLAM BLAM >>Liberal answer: Yes. >Which means celestials would have to tread that much more softly when on >Earth, and not just scoff at that guy with a .38, if he's actually got >vessel-piercing ammunition. (Or holy/unholy bullets). (Oh, but the questions *that* could raise for the long haul... I know nothing about GURPS Black Ops, but the 'Company' sounds almost like Stephen King's 'Shop,' and if that's the case, here's a little episode to ponder:) Sutiel knew John Trochas from many years back, not simply as an officer in one of the Army's technical branches, but a dedicated Soldier of Laurence. He served two duties there. First, he'd maintain vigil for any signs of Diabolical activity within the ranks of the military. And second, he'd route supplies to other Soldiers on the "front lines" of the War. Because he performed his duty so well, Laurence gave him extra lattitude and distance to do his job. Of late, however, Laurence had become concerned, and sent agents to seek him out. Without success. This had Laurence concerned. Fortunately, he was a scientist as well as a soldier, and Jean managed to keep better tabs on him. Something he discovered concerned *him*, and so Jean made "arrangements" in the Department of Defense for Sutiel to go in and talk to him. The name of the facility -- "Camp Paradise" -- bothered Sutiel greatly. It was one of those cute names which was intended both as a lie on one level and an ironic truth on another. Even more disturbing were the devices spaced regularly about the fence and on the gates; he felt that he was being examined, or even in danger. At the gate, there was John Trochas, in a commander's uniform. Even without using his Resonance, Sutiel could tell that Trochas was the one man in charge of the facility. When he stepped out, Trochas half-smiled in a way that made him feel almost unwelcome. He wished he'd been allowed to bring along someone else to handle the "touchy-feely stuff." An Elohite would have been best, but he would have settled for a Mercurian right then. "It's been a long time, Sutiel." Sutiel was concerned once more; he'd changed vessels numerous times since Trochas saw him. "That it has. We need to talk." Cmdr. Trochas nodded. "That we do. That's why I allowed your visit. You're just in time too for a demonstration." "A demonstration of what, and what did you mean 'allowed my visit?'" "The demonstration, you'll see. Right this way." Trochas began walking toward a particular bunker that gave Sutiel a sense of foreboding. "As for your visit, this operation has been running for some time. Once we demonstrated to the top brass' satisfaction that it was necessary, they gave us every bit of lattitude we asked for. I'm not just in charge of the camp, but I get final say over who does and doesn't find out about this project. When I heard it was you, I decided that you'd be the best person to relay my message to your superiors." "And how could you know it was me?" Sutiel hoped he wouldn't have to invoke his Resonance against someone he considered an old friend, but he decided it might be necessary soon. "Even given its experimental nature, Project Paradise already has a considerable installed base within the government. Relatively few people know about its true nature outside that of threat assessment, but I have people in key locations to identify the specific natures of the threats and report them to me. Then we can deal with them individually and appropriately. Where Laurence just had me to identify threats, he now has an entire government agency. Or he would, if we were actually working with him now." They were closing in on the bunker, and Sutiel's concern was almost growing into paranoia. Every question Trochas answered raised two more questions. "This still doesn't explain how your people recognized me." "After you were flagged as a potential hazard, we set about identifying you from the Registry." "The Registry?" This time, Sutiel wasn't taking any chances. He triggered his Resonance and watched Trochas' every move. And everything came in Loud and Clear. Trochas smiled, as if proud of his feat. "That's right. Project Paradise maintains a small database to identify celestial beings attempting to manipulate the government. Alignments of Forces tend to be unique among beings, like fingerprints. Or as *they* put it, *** *** ***** * *** ***** *** **** ***** * *** ****." Sutiel got volumes of information from that statement. The only 'prevarication' was the size of the database. In reality, they had recorded tens of thousands of Celestials, both angelic and demonic. When he referred to 'celestial beings' manipulating the government, he referred to both, and the quote in the strange language, while not understandable, was also true. "That other language. That wasn't the Demonic tongue, wasn't it? You haven't been associating with demons, have you?" "That *was* the demonic tongue, and yes, a certain amount of diabolical contact has been unavoidable in my research. But no, I'm not *associating* with them as such. It's just difficult to conduct a proper interrogation otherwise, when the subject keeps slipping into his native language. In plain English, that quote means 'You can frost a dog turd, but it's still a dog turd.' Common saying down there, it seems." Again, Sutiel got more information than he bargained for. He knew the Diabolical tongue. He knew Diabolicals. He interrogated Diabolicals. He tortured Diabolicals. He... no, it was unthinkable. Something was grossly wrong here. He said nothing for the moment. "Fascinating language, the Fallen Tongue. Never have our linguists encountered a language which contains three different classes of pronoun, for whether you wanted to insult or deprecate the person you're talking to. Adjectives adjust the degree to which this deprecation takes place, and ...well, I could go on and on about it. We're here." The latter statement was irrefutable; they had arrived at the bunker door. There was more equipment on either side, of the sort that he passed through on the way in. "Detectors, I suppose. Identify celestials coming and going?" "You're catching on. In an emergency, they can also erect barriers." Barriers to trap celestials. Angels *or* demons. This was beginning to sound monstrous. "And what are you doing with all this technology?" Trochas carded a slot by the door. Two massive industrial steel plates hissed and parted for them. "For the moment, just safeguarding our work here. As the gear is perfected, though, it's released and shipped to other departments for installation. In this way, we can completely safeguard the government against tampering." The notion of tampering again resounded, as he meant by either side. But this wasn't so horrifying to Sutiel as the chamber in the center of the room. It looked mostly like an execution chamber, where final sentences would be carried out. In the center, they had bound a demon. In celestial form. A beastly, writhing, form which was at the same time hideous, furious, and terrified. He was plainly visible, which shouldn't have been possible, but it was. It was no illusion, either; his Resonance confirmed that. "Special coating on the glass. Certain demons get glasses that can see Essence. We replicated the coating to see actual collections of Forces. That's how we all can see him." "That technology was a creation of Vapulas, and therefore you shouldn't have it." Trochas shook his head. "Completely beside the point. The fact is, we got it, we used it, and we've so thoroughly integrated it and so many other boons -- from both sides, I'll add -- that you have no hope of ever reclaiming them all without doing more harm than good." Certain machinery began warming up in the background, and the form behind the glass redoubled his efforts to break free. Sutiel couldn't disagree with it, either. "And what has this demon given you?" His resonance would choose that exact moment to cut out, too. Trochas almost grinned at this point. "Almost everything he can." Then, to the man working the panel, "Proceed." A light came on in the top of the chamber, a bitterly cold light which felt like it was sucking the air out of the room. In all the battles he's ever fought against demons, this was the closest he had ever come to true pain on the celestial level. And the demon, oh how he screamed as the light continued to draw from him... Sutiel screamed himself as he realized what was happening. "No! This is inhuman!" Trochas chuckled at the notion. "Can't be inhuman. We're humans, after all." He didn't seem the slightest bit pained by the light. Finally, there was a loud shriek, as if the Symphony itself was being torn apart by the screams and the light and the energy flowing... ...and then it was over. Sutiel slumped against the back wall and looked at Trochas with a new-found fear. The faithful soldier he had known in the past had become something colder, something more ruthless than any demon he had ever fought. "Y-you, you just..." Trochas nodded, anticipating what Sutiel was trying to say. "...stripped a Force from that demon, yes." The demon's endurance was not the only thing diminished by the ordeal. He was actually smaller and looked less fearsome. "Once you get all the information you can from them, how else are you going to dispose of them? If you just kill them, they come back sooner or later. This way is more efficient." Sutiel was still reeling. "Permanent, you mean." "Yes, yes I do. Laurence should be pleased." Trochas' mien was unsympathetic, unrepentant, even cold and aloof. Sutiel's head was finally starting to clear from the noise, but he was still confused by Trochas' thinking. "I don't see how that could be the case." "The whole War is being fought to prevent demons from meddling with Humanity. Well, this new technological base puts us on an even footing with them. They will be hard-pressed to interfere, since we can now detect them beforehand, identify them, and deal with them. It was my job originally, and now I've mobilized an entire arm of the government to do just that." "Yes, but their utter destruction?" "Yes, because like I said, anything else would be a half-measure." Trochas stepped over to the door. "I believe you've seen enough. Let me escort you back to the car." He carded the door again to let them out. "You'll want to report back, and carry my message too." "Your message?" Sutiel had indeed heard enough, and didn't like where this was headed. "Yes, my message: that the United States Government is establishing a final solution to the problem of Celestial interference on our territory, that we have a means of protecting ourselves, and that we are in the process of instituting a zero tolerance policy." "Zero tolerance meaning from *either side.*" Trochas nodded again. "If you want to read that into it, you may." Sutiel felt like he was failing Jean, with his inability to get a grasp on what Cmdr. Trochas was saying. On the one hand, that's always been what the War has been about, but the measures they're taking seem somehow extreme to him. And maybe they were. "I don't think I'm reading anything into anything. I think you very much mean it that way." "Perceptive as ever, Sutiel. That's why I liked you. No matter what the interpretation, though, the message is the same: your services will no longer be required." (Pleasant dreams, kiddies...) - -David http://www.bluecrab.org/members/dwood/ "I love the surgical garment. Enjoy the delights of the Victor Mature abdominal corset. Sail down the Nile on the Bleed-It Kosher Truss. And don't forget the Hercules Hold-'em'in, the all-purpose concrete truss for the man with the family hernia." - -Monty Python, episode 26 ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #541 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.