From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Feb 25 18:41:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by deliverator.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA01742; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 18:40:41 -0600 (CST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA08302 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 18:43:58 -0600 Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 18:43:58 -0600 Message-Id: <199702260043.SAA08302@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #40 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, February 25 1997 Volume 01 : Number 040 In this digest: Re: IN> The Four Horsemen IN> The Four Horsemen Re: IN> Who's Who In Hell: Sitri, Demon of Homosexuality IN> Re:Sitri, Demon of Homosexuality Re: IN> Impudite Pickup Lines Re: IN> Re:Sitri, Demon of Homosexuality Re: IN> IN: Off subject, but important. Re: IN> Nergal Re: IN> Penicillin Re: IN> The Four Horsemen Re: IN> The Four Horsemen IN> Evil is/not cool. (was: Michael/Lucifer) IN> IN Source: The Prophecy Re: IN> The Four Horsemen IN> IN Typo... Re: IN> Penicillin Re: IN> Michael/Lucifer IN> Adventure seed Re: IN> Michael/Lucifer Re: IN> The Four Horsemen Re: IN> Adventure seed IN> What's this list about, anyway? Re: IN> The Four Horsemen IN> Lurker question Re: IN> IN Typo... Re: IN> IN Source: The Prophecy Re: IN> Michael/Lucifer Re: IN> The Four Horsemen Re: IN> Novalis IN> First post Re: IN> Adventure seed Re: IN> The Four Horsemen Re: IN> Adventure seed Re: IN> What's this list about, anyway? Re: IN> IN Source: The Prophecy IN> Human's Vessels ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 25 Feb 97 11:50:33 -0600 From: Deathdog Subject: Re: IN> The Four Horsemen >> Double hmm. I can only assume your Bible is one of those wacky American >> ones ;) > >Well, seeing how I'm an American in America, probably. Lesse, it's.... >King James, published by The World Publishing Company, Cleveland and New >York. The verses mentioning the horsemen are Rev 6:1-8, and only Death is >actually named. > >Which bible gives the more popular names? I'd like to answer this...Any Bible that names them all is full of shit. :) If they translated the book the way it was meant to be, the 4 Horsemen are unnamed except for Death. Anything else is poetic liscense, which I think is bad when dealing with something like a religious text. Yeah, wacky American is right. Those "New American Text" or whatever are very very bad. You're better off struggling through a King James because it's about as good as you can get in a language kinda close to English. Better yet, learn classical Greek or Hewbrew and read the original texts. *********************************************************** Brad Everman aka Deathdog, Mac programmer & Grammy-Winning Rap Artist "Friday, February 21st: Downloading of pornography on the internet drops by over fifty percent as millions flock to see The Empire Strikes Back" ------------------------------ Date: 25 Feb 1997 17:06:18 U From: "Andy Butcher" Subject: IN> The Four Horsemen Subject: Time: 16:47 OFFICE MEMO IN> The Four Horsemen Date: 25/02/97 >Classically, the four are classically... Doh! I really should pay more attention... Andy Butcher arcane - the roleplaying magazine - ----------------------------------------------------- abutcher@futurenet.co.uk http://www.futurenet.co.uk/ - ----------------------------------------------------- There are only twenty-seven ways to kill somebody with a toothbrush... Rorschach knew them all. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 13:04:09 -0500 (EST) From: IQJasonS@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Who's Who In Hell: Sitri, Demon of Homosexuality "Good up until that last line. Novalis (aka The Hippy Angel) probably wouldn't see anything wrong with it. Free Love's one of her ideals, at least by implication." Free love, absolutely. But, as the Patron of Flowers and Fertility, I think that her darkest secret might be a hang-up about gender roles. Stamen and pistil, men and women. yours, - -J ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 13:06:43 -0500 (EST) From: HarlinHirs@aol.com Subject: IN> Re:Sitri, Demon of Homosexuality In a message dated 97-02-24 20:29:07 EST, you write: << Comments and critique are, of course, deeply loved. yours, -J >> I'm not too sure about pre-Fall politics, but we do know for a fact that Beleth and Blandine were lovers before Beleth chose to follow Lucifer, and both are explicitly referred to as female... And as to Novalis, well... This does leave me wishing for balance, though. Perhaps an Angel of Homophilia (assuming that's not the name of some obscure medical condition) and a Demon of Homoeroticism? Or something... Damn, I wish Eli'd come back... Paul. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 13:06:59 -0500 (EST) From: HarlinHirs@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Impudite Pickup Lines In a message dated 97-02-24 13:34:29 EST, you write: << Kronos: Said while wearing a watch: "Do you have the time...for love?" Alternatively: Target asks, "Excuse me, do you have the time?" Impudite: "Do you have the energy?" >> Or... Kronos: "Call it Kismet! No really... we're fated to be together." Paul. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 13:40:29 -0500 (EST) From: IQJasonS@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Re:Sitri, Demon of Homosexuality "I'm not too sure about pre-Fall politics, but we do know for a fact that Beleth and Blandine were lovers before Beleth chose to follow Lucifer, and both are explicitly referred to as female..." This is true. Howeverx 1. Gender among angels is a matter of self-conception. Gabriel and Dominic have, after all, changed theirs to suit their whims. So, I'm troubled by labelling their relationship "homosexual", except that all celestials are equally male, female and other all at once. 2. Although the book does describe sex between angels/demons and mortals,. it mentions nothing about sex between celestials, themselves. This in conjunction with... 3. The problem with Sitri, from the Divine perspective, was not that he encouraged homosexual love, but that he refused to *discourage* homosexual acts. yours, - -J ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 12:55:42 -0600 (CST) From: Donald G Bixler Subject: Re: IN> IN: Off subject, but important. On Tue, 25 Feb 1997, J. S. Cardella wrote: > This is off the record, but I thought it might interest my fellow net > junkies. This came to me via a friend in Arizona. I am responding imediately. I've ran across this on other mailing lists. It is not true, but is an exxagerration of an abandoned idea by the Georgia (I think) branch of the FCC from a few years ago. I think the FCC's web page even says that this rumor is not true. - -- Oops da Ogre (mudgb4@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu) Donald G. Bixler "Bah! Vhat good is science if no one gets hurt?" -Dr. Chromedome ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 13:13:13 -0600 (CST) From: James Kiley Subject: Re: IN> Nergal On Tue, 25 Feb 1997, Psychedelic Goblin wrote: > Heh! A demon-prince of Famine would certainly round out the Cuddly 4. > He or she'd probably be a close chum of ol' Nergal here, and a dire > rival of Hageenti. Oh, oh, lots of cool ideas and possibilities... I don't think that a Demon of Famine would necessarily be a rival of Haagenti; Gluttony and Famine are too closely tied together, like Cause and Effect and Side-Effect. Nearly every famine we see "advertised" comes from a glut somewhere else, after all... jk today, the Demon of Processed Cheese Food, in service to Haagenti ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:42:08 -0600 (CST) From: fish Subject: Re: IN> Penicillin On Tue, 25 Feb 1997, Psychedelic Goblin wrote: > "Eureka! AIDS! Let's see the little bastids cure this little beauty" Huh. Is Nergal then allied with the demon of homosexuality, or working against him? (And yes, I know, HIV is also within the heterosexual community. Don't flame me for _that_ particular ignorance...) -- fish. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:52:29 -0600 (CST) From: "Q (not from Star Trek)" Subject: Re: IN> The Four Horsemen On Tue, 25 Feb 1997, Deathdog wrote: > >> Double hmm. I can only assume your Bible is one of those wacky American > >> ones ;) > > > >Well, seeing how I'm an American in America, probably. Lesse, it's.... > >King James, published by The World Publishing Company, Cleveland and New > >York. The verses mentioning the horsemen are Rev 6:1-8, and only Death is > >actually named. > > > >Which bible gives the more popular names? > > I'd like to answer this...Any Bible that names them all is full of shit. > :) No, anybody that reads the inter-text commentary inserted into most Bibles now and takes it as scripture is full of shit. > If they translated the book the way it was meant to be, the 4 Horsemen > are unnamed except for Death. Anything else is poetic liscense, which I > think is bad when dealing with something like a religious text. I agree. Which is exactly the content of my New American Standard Bible. > Yeah, wacky American is right. Those "New American Text" or whatever > are very very bad. You're better off struggling through a King James > because > it's about as good as you can get in a language kinda close to English. > Better yet, learn classical Greek or Hewbrew and read the original texts. Excuse me? You're saying that the next best thing to reading the original Greek or Hebrew is to read the King James Version? FYI, the King James Version wasn't even translated from the original Greek, but from the much later Latin texts which were in turn translated from the Greek. The more modern versions, otoh, are all translated directly from some of the earliest Greek manuscripts available to get them as close to the original as possible. (source: the introduction to my NASB study bible) - -Q (not being pretentious, just stating the facts) - --------------------------------------- "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." -Albert Einstein Scott "Q" Meyer Scott.E.Meyer@wheaton.edu http://johnh.wheaton.edu/~smeyer ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 13:52:30 -0700 (MST) From: Ron Sago Subject: Re: IN> The Four Horsemen On Tue, 25 Feb 1997, Don Fnordlioni wrote: > On 25 Feb 1997, Andy Butcher wrote: > > > Hmm. Only in as much as the Devil himself is doing God's work. They're > > harbingers of the Apocalypse. > > And who says the Apocalypse is a bad thing? > It's a time when evil is destroyed, the Messiah returns, and all good > christians go to their great reward to live happily ever after. > > Only us pagans and heretics should fear the Apocalypse. > This is beginning to look like a theological debate, which, considering the nature of the game, can be expected....... That stated, and considering I already mentioned using the 4 Horsemen idea in an adventure, I have to wonder just what part do the 4 Horsemen play in the scheme of "The War?" Is it truly a sign of predestiny that good is fated to win, or is that just Divine propaganda? Obviously, Lucifer and Co. must assume that the outcome isn't certain, or they wouldn't try. The Divine version of the Horsemen is that they will initiate the Apocalypse, sweeping the Earth of all evil. But......what if that isn't really the case? What if they ARE the end-game, but they will end up serving whichever side wins? Just a little something to think about. Ron Sago, Net Geek (I bite the heads off virtual chickens) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:53:02 -0600 (CST) From: fish Subject: IN> Evil is/not cool. (was: Michael/Lucifer) On Tue, 25 Feb 1997, Deathdog wrote: > >>Evil is not cool. > >On the contrary, Evil can be _very_ cool - it's all a matter of > >perspective ;) > No, evil is not cool. Nah, see, evil is *very* cool -- But cool doesn't necessarily mean *good*. Cool is not necessarily a judgement based on moral merit, it's just a judgement based on whether or not your typical brainwashed 14-year-old will want to do it or not... Part of the reason the demonic hordes are doing so well lately is that they've been able to define cool things as being, oh, smoking, beating people up, etc. After all, they *do* control the media... and the media defines what is cool. -- fish, who roleplays and so is inherently UnCool and happy about it. | fish flowers (i don't exist!) ><> |\ |\ \ / | | | |\ | > \/ |/| | awflower@midway.uchicago.edu, eidolon@io.com | |< /\ |/| | http://student-www.uchicago.edu/users/awflower/index.html | | \ / \ | | ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Feb 97 15:59:44 -0500 From: sven@ll.mit.edu (Sven Skoog) Subject: IN> IN Source: The Prophecy Thought folks online might like to hear (if they haven't already) that the sequel (_Ashtown_) is due out within the year. No, Gregory Widen isn't doing this one... but Walken _does_ return. ;) -- Sven Skoog ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 15:07:15 -0600 (CST) From: fish Subject: Re: IN> The Four Horsemen On Tue, 25 Feb 1997, Ron Sago wrote: > That stated, and considering I already mentioned using the 4 Horsemen idea > in an adventure, I have to wonder just what part do the 4 Horsemen play > in the scheme of "The War?" Is it truly a sign of predestiny that good is > fated to win, or is that just Divine propaganda? Obviously, Lucifer and > Co. must assume that the outcome isn't certain, or they wouldn't try. It seems that the list as a whole has an entirely too ontological view of the entire War... it's not necessarily who wins in the END that matters -- sure, kicking all the demons' asses would be fun and cool and all that, but in the meantime there are more important things to do -- specifically, saving/damning peoples' souls. *That* is the important thing, *that* is why they fight. Sure, according to the Christian mythos Good is eventually fated to 'win'... but that doesn't mean that there aren't costs, that there aren't lost battles. This isn't just a waiting game, this is a war. -- fish, Malakite of Rules Lawyering | fish flowers (i don't exist!) ><> |\ |\ \ / | | | |\ | > \/ |/| | awflower@midway.uchicago.edu, eidolon@io.com | |< /\ |/| | http://student-www.uchicago.edu/users/awflower/index.html | | \ / \ | | ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Feb 97 16:09:36 -0500 From: sven@ll.mit.edu (Sven Skoog) Subject: IN> IN Typo... I don't generally nitpick editing mistakes, but I found one that was kind of funny. (There's another, not funny one on pg. 100, but I won't go into it here.) pg. 104, description of Mercurians, Manner and Appearance: "...Lowest of the high, savior-faire incarnate, Mercurians move smoothly...' ^^^^^^^^^^^^ *chuckle* -- S. Skoog ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 16:14:22 -0500 (EST) From: IQJasonS@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Penicillin "Huh. Is Nergal then allied with the demon of homosexuality, or working against him? (And yes, I know, HIV is also within the heterosexual community. Don't flame me for _that_ particular ignorance...)" Actually, I have an answer prepared for this one: "Gosh, Saminga is a nasty guy. Wouldn't it be just like him to invent a plague and tie it to a Servitor of a Prince he's known to be hostile to? And wouldn't he love it if people started to avoid sex and fear death?" yours, - -J ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 16:20:39 EST From: jdye@juno.com (JOHN C DYE) Subject: Re: IN> Michael/Lucifer On 25 Feb 1997 16:45:03 U "Andy Butcher" writes: > Subject: Time: >16:17 > OFFICE MEMO RE>IN> Michael/Lucifer Date: >25/02/97 > >>Sure the angels could win hands down pretty quickly... > >Erm, where did you get this idea from? In Nomine makes it fairly clear >that the forces of Hell currently outnumber the forces of Heaven, but >the average Demon isn't as strong as the average Angel. The result is >an uneasy stalemate, with neither side confident of victory (there are >other possible reasons why the two sides haven't kicked off a 'final >battle', of course, but this is the only one that's really clearly >stated in the book). Well, no. Unless I missed a post, angels initially outnumbered demons by 2 to 1 in the Fall. If I recall, that is even canon. I am sure that Hell is trying to recruit as many Nephalliam, undead and human stooges as they can to bolster ranks, but good can recruit also. I seek information from the Seraphim, Moria (who is a Bright Belseraph, she has her own world view, and MAKES it the truth) >>Evil is not cool. > >On the contrary, Evil can be _very_ cool - it's all a matter of >perspective ;) Cool. Next time a partner cheats on you, a friend lies to you, you get robbed beaten, mugged, or someone decides to indulge in some hate or genocide, just smile and repeat the mantra "This is SO cool." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 16:57:28 +0000 From: "J. S. Cardella" Subject: IN> Adventure seed I know this doesn't have the depth of Bohdi's adventures, but here's my contribution. This adventure may run Host or Diabolical PC's, or even a mixed group. ====================================================================== A Detroit newspaper has been on strike for 19 months. Recently, a settlement was in sight, but at the last minute, negotiations failed. Nybbas is very concerned about the strike. His newspaper influence in the Detroit area is waning, so the power of his Word is decreasing. He has sent some of his Servitors to the newspaper, to see what they can do. So far, he has gleaned little information. But one of his own did manage to climb the ranks in the office during the last few months. So Nybbas is pulling out his Big Gun: Jordan, the best of his Balseraphs, is going to represent the newspaper at the next negotiation talks, scheduled two weeks hence. The union knows about Jordan (but not necessarily that he's a demon) and his reputation for settements. So both sides are actually breathing a little easier. Behind the scenes: Malphas, Prince of Factions, has his agents in place on both the union and newspaper sides to cause as much dissent as possible. It was he who instigated the strike and the newspaper's stubbon holdout. His Word has been strengthened, and he wants to gain even more power. His minions are good at what they're doing. And they have succeeded so far. The PCs have each gotten jobs at the newspaper as replacement workers, or, as the union refers to them, "scabs". The scabs have recently seen more and more violent confrontations, as the retribution of the frustrated union is lashing out with all its force. It is one of these violent encounters that pulls the PC's into the fray. You see, Malphas assigned a couple of Calabim to the union, and things have gotten a little out of control, what with the fire bombings and such. It is during one of these encounters that Jordan is injured. Both sides now start blaming each other for the incident. This is growing into a full scale war. Which of course attracts the attention of Michael and Laurence, and maybe some of the other Princes. The PC's may work for any Superior, and that will determine their agenda. Will they prevent a war? Will they aid it? Malphas doesn't want a war, he just wants the factions. So what will his Calabim, not to mention his other agents, do about this? How will Nybbas intervene? Stay tuned, adventurers! ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Joel Cardella "Chinese food IS my life" http://www.io.com/~dronf ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 16:33:34 -0500 (EST) From: IQJason@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Michael/Lucifer " I seek information from the Seraphim, Moria (who is a Bright Belseraph, she has her own world view, and MAKES it the truth)" Point of order - Mike "Moriah" Sullivan is definitively not a she. Thought: If Moriah is the Bright one...what do you suppose that makes Derek? He was Cast Out as list manager, and he did "knight" me way back when. Hmm. yours, - -J ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Feb 97 15:53:26 -0600 From: Deathdog Subject: Re: IN> The Four Horsemen >Excuse me? You're saying that the next best thing to reading the original >Greek or Hebrew is to read the King James Version? FYI, the King James >Version wasn't even translated from the original Greek, but from the much >later Latin texts which were in turn translated from the Greek. The more >modern versions, otoh, are all translated directly from some of the >earliest Greek manuscripts available to get them as close to the original >as possible. (source: the introduction to my NASB study bible) Yeah, I know , but considering that the Latin texts are based on *original* Greek texts, and this is indeed closer than the current texts available to scholars today. It is also very apparent in the American versions that they explorate to the extreme even within the main text. This is unacceptable. Get a Strongs Concordance, a big pot of coffee, and just see how many mistakes are in each version. I'm betting its the new version over the KJ two to one. *********************************************************** Brad Everman aka Deathdog, Mac programmer & Grammy-Winning Rap Artist "Friday, February 21st: Downloading of pornography on the internet drops by over fifty percent as millions flock to see The Empire Strikes Back" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Feb 97 15:55:38 -0600 From: Deathdog Subject: Re: IN> Adventure seed >I know this doesn't have the depth of Bohdi's adventures, but here's >my contribution. Speaking of contributions, does anyone want to volunteer and collate all these great ideas into one source? Kinda like the net.plot books. There isn't much info anywhere on In Nomine right now, I think we need to remedy this. *********************************************************** Brad Everman aka Deathdog, Mac programmer & Grammy-Winning Rap Artist "Friday, February 21st: Downloading of pornography on the internet drops by over fifty percent as millions flock to see The Empire Strikes Back" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 15:42:56 -0600 From: Ter Roshawk Subject: IN> What's this list about, anyway? Hey. I've been on this list for only a very short time, but I'm considering jumping off. I was wondering, is this list talking about the In Nomine game, or just a place for theological debates masquerading as disscussions over a Steve Jackson RPG? Most of the messages I get are wondering if Micheal has defeated Satan, if evil is "cool", what cultures are wrong or right, and finnally, what the "true" standing of the 4 horsemen is. Now, are we discussing game terms, and possible story ideas, or what? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Feb 97 15:57:20 -0600 From: Deathdog Subject: Re: IN> The Four Horsemen >The Divine version of the Horsemen is that they will initiate the >Apocalypse, sweeping the Earth of all evil. But......what if that isn't >really the case? What if they ARE the end-game, but they will end up >serving whichever side wins? You really like to make us think, don't you? This is a badass idea, man. I think I'll write an adventure... *********************************************************** Brad Everman aka Deathdog, Mac programmer & Grammy-Winning Rap Artist "Friday, February 21st: Downloading of pornography on the internet drops by over fifty percent as millions flock to see The Empire Strikes Back" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 16:53:45 -0500 (EST) From: Elohite@aol.com Subject: IN> Lurker question I have been reading the digests, and have found a couple answers to my questions. Is there a FAQ, or a format for asking rules questions? My question is this: On page 50, the example of Matthew, the Mummy, is really messed up. I'm not sure how to interpret it. At one point, it says he has Song of Tongues/6. Then it says he can use Tongues/5 + Corporeal Forces (3) + Agility/3. Where does it say you can base attacks on Agility? It also makes a reference to this under Feet. Thanks for any help- Se'hetshebal, Elohite Servitor of Destiny "Too many Malakim in the world!" Vessel name: Fred ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 21:58:30 GMT From: Molt Subject: Re: IN> IN Typo... > I don't generally nitpick editing mistakes, but I found one that > was kind of funny. (There's another, not funny one on pg. 100, > but I won't go into it here.) > pg. 104, description of Mercurians, Manner and Appearance: > > "...Lowest of the high, savior-faire incarnate, Mercurians move > smoothly...' ^^^^^^^^^^^^ > -- S. Skoog > Hmm.. maybe it's just me but this seems so funny I'm inclined to believe it was intentional. Either that or a servent of Kobal did the typesetting.. tum te tum.. Molt. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 15:12:45 -0700 (MST) From: Ron Sago Subject: Re: IN> IN Source: The Prophecy On Tue, 25 Feb 1997, Sven Skoog wrote: > > > > Thought folks online might like to hear (if they haven't already) > that the sequel (_Ashtown_) is due out within the year. > > No, Gregory Widen isn't doing this one... but Walken _does_ return. ;) > > > -- Sven Skoog > AND Glen Danzig gets to play a fallen angel./...... Ron Sago ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 15:15:26 -0700 (MST) From: Ron Sago Subject: Re: IN> Michael/Lucifer On Tue, 25 Feb 1997, JOHN C DYE wrote: > >>Evil is not cool. > > > >On the contrary, Evil can be _very_ cool - it's all a matter of > >perspective ;) > > Cool. Next time a partner cheats on you, a friend lies to you, you get > robbed beaten, mugged, or someone decides to indulge in some hate or > genocide, just smile and repeat the mantra "This is SO cool." > I'm not sure, but I think that's what he meant by "perspective." If I am the one robbing, cheating, stealing or yes, even indulging in genocide, it seems pretty cool to me. Ron Sago ps No, I don't think any of those things are cool. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 16:16:38 -0600 (CST) From: James Kiley Subject: Re: IN> The Four Horsemen I'm feeling contrary today; this is my second post of the day. On Tue, 25 Feb 1997, fish wrote: > all that, but in the meantime there are more important things to do -- > specifically, saving/damning peoples' souls. *That* is the important > thing, *that* is why they fight. Sure, according to the Christian mythos See, I don't see that as being the reason they fight. They fight because dicking with the other side is what they DO. It's a cold war mentality; it's a Coke vs. Pepsi mentality; it's a Democrats vs. Republicans mentality. jk whose word for this post is Smelly Socks, in service to the Prince of... something ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 16:24:23 -0600 From: dpearcy@io.com (Derek Patton Pearcy) Subject: Re: IN> Novalis >"Good up until that last line. Novalis (aka The Hippy Angel) probably >wouldn't see anything wrong with it. Free Love's one of her ideals, >at least by implication." > >Free love, absolutely. But, as the Patron of Flowers and Fertility, I think >that her darkest secret might be a hang-up about gender roles. Stamen and >pistil, men and women. I don't think so. Flowers don't generally pick their mates; humans can love one another regardless of gender. But again, everyone has a different definition of "good" and "evil" -- that's one reason why I didn't include a long diatribe in In Nomine on the nature of the two. Someone else wrote: >Damn, I wish Eli'd come back... It's not so much that Eli's gone, he's just passing on the paperwork. He thinks he can do his job better on Earth, instead of hanging out in an ivory tower (or Notre Dame, for example). This makes him very hard to get ahold of, but much more difficult to combat. I can't wait to see the Servitors of Eli fleshed out -- that's scheduled for next year. Derek ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 15:00:52 -0800 From: "Joe Fulgham" Subject: IN> First post Hi gang. Just got In-Nomine last week, and read through February's digests shortly before subscribing. Love the adventure ideas. I was a little dissappointed that there wasn't an example in the rulebook, and I've been hoping to find some ideas online. There was mention of collecting the posted adventures for easy access, and I'll volunteer myself and my web space for the job. I'm sure you'll appreciate my URL: http://www.holycow.com/ For those interested in finding out more about Neil Gaiman, holycow.com is also the site for the #1 Gaiman web page - The Dreaming - http://www.holycow.com/dreaming/ Enough self-promotion... I'll get working on a front page for the net.books, and put something up by tomorrow. Probably use http://www.holycow.com/in-nomine/ so keep your eyes peeled. If anyone has a problem with their adventure postings showing up there, let me know and I'll take it down/never put it up. - --------------------------------------------------------- Joe Fulgham |"Expecting the world to treat you puck@holycow.com | fairly because you are a good www.holycow.com | person is a little like expecting PGP Key available | the bull not to attack you because Puck Undernet #mtg | you are a vegetarian. -Dennis Wholey ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 16:10:47 +0000 From: "Robert Wolff" Subject: Re: IN> Adventure seed > I know this doesn't have the depth of Bohdi's adventures, but here's > my contribution. What are you talking about!!!! This was good stuff! What a great idea! ...Besides, if any of my friends hear you talking about the 'depth' of any of the silly notions ** I ** have, I'll never hear the end of it :) Depth, indeed... hmph.... Keep up the good work. I'm always looking for stuff like this. It means I don't have to think up another adventure for my next gaming night. I'll just use yours. Thanks for the input. I like the idea of compiling these into one big adventure idea package... would be a best-seller, don't you think? Sincerely, Rob Wolff / Bodhi rob@v-wave.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:15:27 -0600 (CST) From: "Q (not from Star Trek)" Subject: Re: IN> The Four Horsemen On Tue, 25 Feb 1997, Deathdog wrote: > >Excuse me? You're saying that the next best thing to reading the original > >Greek or Hebrew is to read the King James Version? FYI, the King James > >Version wasn't even translated from the original Greek, but from the much > >later Latin texts which were in turn translated from the Greek. The more > >modern versions, otoh, are all translated directly from some of the > >earliest Greek manuscripts available to get them as close to the original > >as possible. (source: the introduction to my NASB study bible) > > Yeah, I know , but considering that the Latin texts are based on > *original* > Greek texts, and this is indeed closer than the current texts available to > scholars today. Ok, now we're getting into the question of which is more recent, the Latin texts used when translating the KJV or the Greek texts used for at least one of the new versions. First of all, where do errors in ancient texts come from, anyways? From the copying. You see, back then, the only way to have more than one copy of a text was to copy it, painstakingly, by hand. Well, humans are only fallible, so, somewhere along the line, mistakes are bound to be made, and the more copies you make, the more mistakes. The only way to have new texts was to copy them from old texts. If this wasn't done on a regular basis, the old copies would rot, fall apart, and the text would be lost. The job of many monasteries was exactly that, copying the old texts. Now, I don't know about the rest of the church heirarchy, but monks were laymen, hardly any of them actually spoke Latin (those Gregorian chants were learned completely from rote memorization) and many of them couldn't even read. They didn't know what they were copying. All of these factors added together equate to a group of texts far from being directly from the original Greek. Now, where do the modern texts come from? Archeology. Every once in a while(well, a lot more often than that, actually), excavations uncover a complete, or almost complete, text in the original Greek. These texts have not been subject to the continuous copying, and are undeniably older. It is from these texts that the more modern versions are translated. It is also very apparent in the American versions that > they > explorate to the extreme even within the main text. Exactly how do you define exploration? How apparent is apparent. What's apparent to you may not be apparent to me, so give me your take on it. Cite an example. How many American versions have you read? Do you think that every American version is full of inner-city slang? I know that my New American Standard Bible is a direct word-for-word translation, nothing added, nothing taken away. Why don't you get ahold of one, read it, and tell me what you think. This is unacceptable. > Get a Strongs Concordance, a big pot of coffee, and just see how many > mistakes > are in each version. I'm betting its the new version over the KJ two to > one. Strong's Concordance is based off the KJV, so obviously there would be differences between his and one of the modern versions. Strong may have been a great scholer, even a great man, but he is not infallible. Now, i know of only a few obvious instances where the newer translations differ from the older ones. In fact, these are specifically pointed out in my bible. First of all, Luke 24 verses 12 and 40 are both pointed out as not existing in many of the older manuscripts, as well as almost all of the last chapter of Mark (chapter 16 verses 9-20). The only others I can think of (although I don't quite have time to look them up) are instances where the phrase "let the reader understand" are inserted in various places as commentary that were later copied and recited as gospel. If you want a nice version that still keeps the King James English but taken from the earlier texts without the errors, get a New King James. - -Q, the unjudgmental, unpretentious, unbiased Elohim, who only wants to make sure all the facts are clear before making a decision. - --------------------------------------- "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." -Albert Einstein Scott "Q" Meyer Scott.E.Meyer@wheaton.edu http://johnh.wheaton.edu/~smeyer ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:19:05 -0600 (CST) From: fish Subject: Re: IN> Adventure seed On Tue, 25 Feb 1997, Robert Wolff wrote: > Thanks for the input. I like the idea of compiling these into one > big adventure idea package... would be a best-seller, don't you > think? Unlikely. Not to cast aspirations on your adventures, but adventures don't sell too well, unless you're TSR. Thus the lack of published adventures from SJG in the past couple of years. -- fish. | fish flowers (i don't exist!) ><> |\ |\ \ / | | | |\ | > \/ |/| | awflower@midway.uchicago.edu, eidolon@io.com | |< /\ |/| | http://student-www.uchicago.edu/users/awflower/index.html | | \ / \ | | ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 19:00:50 -0500 (EST) From: Raoul Duke Subject: Re: IN> What's this list about, anyway? On Tue, 25 Feb 1997, Ter Roshawk wrote: > Hey. I've been on this list for only a very short time, but I'm > considering jumping off. I was wondering, is this list talking about the > In Nomine game, or just a place for theological debates masquerading as > disscussions over a Steve Jackson RPG? Most of the messages I get are > wondering if Micheal has defeated Satan, if evil is "cool", what > cultures are wrong or right, and finnally, what the "true" standing of > the 4 horsemen is. > > Now, are we discussing game terms, and possible story ideas, or what? > Well... *yes*. We've been doing all of the above, and I think that it's all fairly appropriate. With the ideas this game deals with, I think it's fully appropriate to discuss anything that might influence how we play, or at least give us some neat ideas to ponder. I should think several good in-character conversations could be had in a game over whether or not evil's cool (not even necessarily between angels and demons-- a Habbalite would probably have a different perspective from a Shedite, and might even get indignant) or whatever. All this stuff can be used pretty well in-game. If you're looking for straight rules stuff, we are still asking a lot of questions, although most of the important ones have been answered (anyone know if we can get past digests through the list? The SJG website archive hasn't been updated in a while), and there's a fairly steady stream of good (if prone to controversy) adventure ideas from Robert Wolff. If the sheer number of messages is what's getting you down, there's always the digest format; aside from that, I think this is a pretty good list. Joe ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 19:10:33 -0500 (EST) From: Raoul Duke Subject: Re: IN> IN Source: The Prophecy On Tue, 25 Feb 1997, Ron Sago wrote: > On Tue, 25 Feb 1997, Sven Skoog wrote: > > Thought folks online might like to hear (if they haven't already) > > that the sequel (_Ashtown_) is due out within the year. > > No, Gregory Widen isn't doing this one... but Walken _does_ return. ;) > > AND Glen Danzig gets to play a fallen angel./...... Where'd you hear this, and what'll it be about? If it's perhaps a little too off-topic for the list, just directly e-mail me (okay, here's some relevance, would Gabriel's human servants be Saints or Soldiers? Sure, they died and were resurrected, but it could have just been clinical death for symbolic reasons or to provide that psychological hold he had over them. Also, they didn't seem to have any supernatural powers aside from taking bullets a little better than normal folk) Joe ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 19:40:23 -0500 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: IN> Human's Vessels Although, it's probably FAR too late to change this, I think that's it's a bad idea for the Vessel of a human to be based on the Corporeal Forces. This seems like a free ride since increased Corporeal Forces already increases Body Hits directly and indirectly (since increased Corporeal gives one, on the average, a higher Strength). - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | "A fundamental principle of economics is that the | | more you tax something, the less you get of it. | | In this country we tax success most of all." | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #40 ****************************** The material here is (C) 1996 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.