From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Feb 27 22:35:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by deliverator.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA13535; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 22:34:57 -0600 (CST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA01064 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 22:38:06 -0600 Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 22:38:06 -0600 Message-Id: <199702280438.WAA01064@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #46 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, February 27 1997 Volume 01 : Number 046 In this digest: Re[2]: IN> Lilim Hearts Re: IN> A Question of Cool Re: IN> Re: Re: List Management Re[2]: IN> Lilim Hearts Re: Re[2]: IN> Lilim Hearts IN> Male Lilim Re: IN> Re: Re: List Management IN> Satan IN> Male Lilim IN> Coolness of Evil IN> Lilim Hearts IN> Homocelestiality IN> Character Sheet update IN> Some Lilim answers from Derek, reprised Re: IN> More Malakite Oaths... Re: IN> Re: Re: List Management IN> Freed Lilim? Re: IN> Coolness of Evil Re: IN> Coolness of Evil Re: IN> Freed Lilim? Re: IN> Coolness of Evil IN> Processed Cheese Food Re: IN> Freed Lilim? IN> A few thinking points on "Fallen Angels" Re: IN> Processed Cheese Food Re: IN> Freed Lilim? Re: IN> The Four Horsemen ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 27 Feb 97 16:10:31 -0500 From: sven@ll.mit.edu (Sven Skoog) Subject: Re[2]: IN> Lilim Hearts > So where *do* free Lilim appear if their vessels get toasted? Why, in or around their Mother's vicinity, of course. For which they owe her another (3-point geas) favor. ;) -- S. Skoog ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 16:51:52 -0500 From: John Maurer Subject: Re: IN> A Question of Cool At 01:13 PM 2/27/97 -0500, DeltaS wrote: >So, then, you're saying that Shakespear, for instance was a Bigot, when >he wrote Othello? I mean, lots of characters treated him poorly because >he was black. Of course, he portrayed Othello's side as well. Hmmm. ;) No, but he had to experience Bigotry to know what it was about. He had to have some part of himself that he could draw on in order to write lines for that hatred. Perhaps Shakespear drew that hate from a completely different source, but it had to be there. >I think that a good author certainly must explore an emotion, in order to >'experience' it. That's why I roleplay. And I'd venture a guess that it's >why lots of you rp too. I don't have to BE a bigot to play a member of >the KKK. I don't have to BE gay to play a lesbian. I don't have to BE a >man to play one. You see? That's the entire point of RP to me. It's not >the only point, it's just my point. :) I agree. I try to play characters very diferent from the way I really am. But what I think I am actually doing is re-empasising and accentuating diferent aspects of what is already there. Some people have so little 'empathy' with a role that they can't play it. Watch MOST trans-gendered characters (men playing women and the like). They can only do what they know, and what they know in those cases is often a bad parody. But other better actors can take their experiences and arrange them in such a way that it is convincing. I am not sure where this thread is going, but I will give an example. Tomorrow night I am going to be playing a Seraph of Lawrence. This is radically diferent from the rather mild mannered me. But I can take my experiences of growing up Catholic, my Martial Arts training, and my natural stubborness and accentuate them. Boom, instant Old Testament Style Angel. And COMPLETELY off topic... Are there Male Lilim? John "I often find myself rooting for the Apoclypse" -- John Maurer ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 16:51:49 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Re: Re: List Management At 3:19 PM -0500 2/27/97, DeltaS wrote: >On Thu, 27 Feb 1997, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >>Eudora manages it quite nicely. Get a real email program, Moriah. >>O;> > >Ahem. ;) Well I wouldn't call Eudora a "real" email program. (Eudora Pro, not Eudora Lite -- does filters, sorting, spellchecking if I bothered, inserts one of three .sig files, wordwrap if I wanted it...) >> off for all things anyway -- I *like* "Re"s! > >Me too please. > >> Elizabeth, gray Lilim of Thread Attributions; special rite: provoking >> religious computer arguements (Mac vs. PC, Windows vs DOS vs MacOS...) >> (+3 Essence if I can get Hitler mentioned in a computer flamewar!) > >Ewww! your rite worked! I flamed your mailer! Cool! Ahhhhhhhh! That feels good! - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 16:53:03 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re[2]: IN> Lilim Hearts At 4:10 PM -0500 2/27/97, Sven Skoog wrote: > > > > > So where *do* free Lilim appear if their vessels get toasted? > > Why, in or around their Mother's vicinity, of course. > For which they owe her another (3-point geas) favor. ;) Hm.... "Uh, hi, mom! Thought I'd drop by and see how things were doing, catch up on the family gossip, that kind of thing... Well, mortals seem to put a lot of stock in it. Sorry to bother you, I'll just be going now..." emccoy@nh.ultranet.com, Uppity Wynch http://brie.bmsc.washington.edu/people/merritt/books/Eye_of_Argon.html "rumoured to contain hoards of plunder, and many young wenches" Mike [falsetto]: "We're tired of these degrading patriachical slurs! From now on we demand to be called 'wynchys.'" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 22:07:40 GMT From: Molt Subject: Re: Re[2]: IN> Lilim Hearts >> So where *do* free Lilim appear if their vessels get toasted? > > Why, in or around their Mother's vicinity, of course. > For which they owe her another (3-point geas) favor. ;) > -- S. Skoog This sounds wrong to me personally, maybe appearing near Lilith, yes. But the idea of this adding a new geas to them sounds a little harsh. It may take longer to recover from, not having as much focus as a heart (And dear old Lili may suggest she does them a favour and creates a heart for them). She may take a load of favours to do that though, she'd probably have to 'free' the heart to them since she'd not like to feel she was imprisoning them. Just my thoughts, and not at all influenced by the fact my character's a free Lilim, no, not at all... you do believe me, don't you? ;) Molt. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 16:04:18 -0600 (CST) From: Russ Collins Subject: IN> Male Lilim > And COMPLETELY off topic... Are there Male Lilim? Yes, it says so in the book; it also says that female Lilim are so much more common that female pronouns are used in the abstract. Russ Collins rgc@io.com "Once one dismisses the rest of all possible worlds, One finds that this is the best of all possible worlds." -- Candide (Berstein, Sondheim) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 16:07:10 -0600 (CST) From: Brian Emord Subject: Re: IN> Re: Re: List Management I would just like to ask one question: And this relates to the base topic how?? Thank you all for your time. Brian Emord Visit my homepage at http://www-scf.usc.edu/~emord - --* BEGIN GEEKCODE BLOCK *-- GCS/E d(+)>++ s+:+ a? C+++(++++)$ UBLAHS++$ P+++$ L++ E W++ N o K++ w O++ M-->--- V-- PS(++) PE(+)(-) Y+ PGP- t+@ 5+@ X R+(+++)* tv b++>+++ DI+++$ D G++ e(*)>++++ h+(*) r++>+++ y+ - --* END GEEKCODE BLOCK *-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 16:16:12 -0600 (CST) From: Dann Webster Subject: IN> Satan Again, a bit off subject, but after checking for an Ashtown web page, I came up with this Film: http://198.53.172.4/~corona/films/details/fallen.html Devil as aserial killer w/ Denzel Washington & John Goodman ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 17:18:02 -0500 (EST) From: IQJason@aol.com Subject: IN> Male Lilim John Maurer asks: "And COMPLETELY off topic... Are there Male Lilim?" For this, I can quote th'tome. If you'll turn in your hymnal to page 148... "Not all Lilim consider themselves female. Many of them use male vessels, but since the majority prefer to appear as women, demons refer to the Lilim as female when speaking of them as a group." So...yes. They're sort of rare, but they're out there. I'm thinking of working up stats for a particular Lilim in a male vessel who's worked for Andre, Vapula and Saminga, and has the Attunements to prove it. You'll know him when you see him, I think. yours, come *up* to the *lab*, and *see* what's on the *slab*, - -J ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 15:00:19 -0800 From: Aaron Harmon Subject: IN> Coolness of Evil John Maurer hath spoken: >>well, they needed an alternate choice. So God allowed Lucifer to rebel. Hey, it wouldn't be the first time that God set up a fall guy simply to further his cause. Somebody had to betray Jesus to further the cause, so Judas betrayed him. (I would have held out for more though, 30SP to betray the son of God? Yucko!) God needed a bad guy so that he could be the good guy. No bad guy = no good guy. Whoa...I have been reading alot about Zen lately and now I feel like I am drowning in dualism. BTW, does anyone see a simularity between Lucifer and Prometheus? Both rebelled against their God(s), and although Prometheus is the one who gave man fire, Lucifer was the angel of light, as his name suggests (Light-bringer, I think). (Oooh, maybe Lucent Technologies had something to do with it). I will stop rambling now ____________________________________________________________ Aaron M. Harmon aaron@longsword.com http://www.longsword.com ____________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: 27 Feb 97 18:54:20 EST From: Moriah - Steve Jackson Games <73407.515@CompuServe.COM> Subject: IN> Lilim Hearts Moriah said: >>Lilim who are 'free' don't have a heart . >Aaron retorted: >Then if they are "killed" on the corporeal plane, where do they show up. I >believe it was said (I don't have a page number) that if a celestial is >killed corporeally(sp?) he shows up near his heart, and begin contemplating >his death. So where do free lilim show up? We're discussing that now. No, you're not cleared to know who 'we' are. We've got the same problem with Outcast, Renegade, and Grigori celestials. Me, I'd create Limbo for them, a celestial neutral ground. Other options are that they remain celestial on earth, subject to celestial damage and final death until they can get another vessel. If they don't have the character points for another vessel, or a Superior to give them one, they may have to barter for one or trade in a Force for free character points. Surprise your players, or let your GM surprise you. Heh heh heh. Peace, Moriah ------------------------------ Date: 27 Feb 97 18:54:14 EST From: Moriah - Steve Jackson Games <73407.515@CompuServe.COM> Subject: IN> Homocelestiality 1. Celestials are spiritual creatures by nature. In the celestial realms, they have celestial forms. 2. The celestial forms the celestials have are varied: Objects such as wheels of flame; animals such as a serpent; and male, female, and androgynous (maybe some even have hermaphroditic) human forms. 3. A humanoid and animal coupling of celestials is not bestiality. A humanoid and object-like coupling is not a fetish. A male and male coupling is not homosexuality. A male and female coupling is not heterosexuality. Those concepts just don't apply to the celestials. They are not sexed and engendered in their celestial forms; they are beyond such distinctions. If anything, 'unisexual' or 'omnisexual' would be better terms, if applicable at all. There is no celestial sexual drive oriented toward wheels of fire, serpents, male or female forms. There is no celestial sexual orientation except to another celestial, disregarding their form. 4. When a celestial takes on a vessel, things might change, but they don't have to. There are two ways to go with this: a. The celestial is just a ghost in the machine. They are above human emotions, passions, drives, hormones, etc.... Oh, sure, they can enjoy the sensory inputs, especially from sex; but they don't have typical human sexual orientations. Celestial emotions and passions are close enough to human that they aren't acting like freaks; but there will be subtle differences in a celestial's response to ordinary human events. b. The celestial merges with a human vessel in such a way that they take on human passions, emotions, drives, etc.... They do start to think of themselves as male or female with a definite discriminating sexual orientation. One would suppose that since a stable percentage of humanity has been homo/bisexuals, then that same percentage of celestial vessels would also be homo/bisexual. I doubt that celestials, finding themselves in a gay vessel, would be alarmed -- last night in heaven, they were mating with a wheel of fire. Whether to use a. or b. is up to the GM and players. 5. As to Dominic and Laurence, the Christian boosters: They already behave in ways that seem at odds to the Christian faith. They *may* support anti-homosexual morality as something that's proper to human nature; but they themselves are above such human ethics or behavior. I doubt they give it much thought. Peace, Moriah ------------------------------ Date: 27 Feb 97 18:53:49 EST From: Moriah - Steve Jackson Games <73407.515@CompuServe.COM> Subject: IN> Character Sheet update The demonic character sheet on the SJ Games IN NOMINE website is now the up to date one. As far as the complaint about quality, we're still discussing it. And, if anyone wants to make their own sheet, go to it, just please put in the usual copyright notice that SJG owns IN. Otherwise, you don't need permission. And, if anyone wants to create programs or spreadsheet character generators, please read the SJG policy on authoring programs related to SJG products on our website. Basically, you can do it and distribute it free or for pay (we get a cut, if for pay); we just need to check it for quality and copyright permissions. Peace, Moriah IN NOMINE Line Editor ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Feb 97 18:52 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: IN> Some Lilim answers from Derek, reprised >Moriah said: >>>Lilim who are 'free' don't have a heart . > >Then if they are "killed" on the corporeal plane, where do they show up. I >believe it was said (I don't have a page number) that if a celestial is >killed corporeally(sp?) he shows up near his heart, and begin contemplating >his death. So where do free lilim show up? Derek kindly answered (sort of) this question for me the other day: - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > - Where is a "free" Lilim's heart kept? My intention was that they don't have Hearts (rather appropriate, I think ;) and instead must elbow their way through the gates of Hell like all the other pressing flesh. Such is the price for not having a boss. > - what happens when a celestial with no heart in the celestial realm >"dies"? There's no heart to manifest next to.... This applies to >Outcasts, Renegades, and possibly "free" Lilim, if you apply the >interpretation I took above. Perhaps they act like Ethereal spirits and >return to the Marches, instead? I'd say that Outcasts (who can't get to their Superior's Cathedral) and Renegades (who've presumably shattered their Hearts before scampering away, and can't get to their Superior's Principality) either: a) show up in the Marches; b) show up at the front door of their respective celestial realm (angels might be given push-broom duty for eternity; the Princes probably have a snitch sitting high atop a pillar keeping an eye out for any Renegades trying to sneak back in); c) have no limits on how long they can stay in their celestial forms, thus keeping them on Earth but leaving them open to serious celestial attack and eventual disbanding of their Forces. I like the third option, what do you guys think? - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looks like FAQ material to me, Moriah.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Feb 97 19:17:24 -0600 (CST) From: kestre1@airmail.net (Andrew Getting) Subject: Re: IN> More Malakite Oaths... At 04:38 PM 2/26/97 +0000, in_nomine-l@lists.io.com wrote: >Suggested Malakim Oaths: > >I still get the impression that Malakites do generate a _ sort_ of >dissonance whenever they go against their true nature (i.e. act in an >`anti-resonance' rashion). Thus, Malakites would undertake even more >stringent personal codes of conduct in an attempt to prove their >absolute dedication to the War. I tend to use them as role-playing >cues, and methods by which to bring about more dimension to a >character that may be in danger of becoming "just another Fighter". >Think of Samurai, who spent their spare time drilling, learning new >skills, arranging flowers, writing poetry, etc. as part of their >personal code: this was their way of proving their devotion to their >vocation. The following are some additional Malakite >oaths/codes/promises. > >1. Battle a Diabolical at least once per year/month/week to prove >one's honourable devotion to the cause. Problem: Any smart, non-Distinctive (as in, has been awarded a Distinction) will probably blow town as soon as they hear about the Malakite coming. Year's good. Month's pushing it. Week's unrealistic without going into Hell. >2. Learn and improve one's combat skills at least once per >year/month/week (thus, it is an honourable promise to devote at least >a certain amount of Character points to one's combat abilities, even >if one is aleady nearly unstoppable!)... promise to learn and perfect >your craft. Ditto. Training to the point where you have a noticable increase in skill in a week is nigh impossible. >3. Swear not to ever aid anybody who serves an archangel whom your >Master is hostile to. This means you can't help them even if it is >for the good of everybody. You just won't do it. (re: pg. 109) This is the kind of thing that gets Dominic on your ass. >4. Thou shalt not suffer a (blank) to live. Promise to destroy, on >sight or upon proof of guilt, anybody who is diametrically opposed to >your archangel's word, or anybody (including Celestials) who impede >you in the service of your archangel. eg. Michael's malakites might >swear to destroy, personally, any Celestial who serves Dominic and has >proven themselves over-zealous in the persecution of Michael. Thus, >you might get in trouble for doing it later, but honour demands that >you prove your devotion to the cause by killing such a detriment to >the War. (re: pg. 109) Eek! Do you want to find out what happens to bad Malakim? >Archangel-specific Oaths: > > Since a Malakite's code of conduct is based upon "his personal > principles of right and wrong" (pg. 100), then I figured a malakite's > code of conduct would also somehow reflect the word they have chosen > to associate with. The following, therefore, are suggested > codes/oaths for malakites in service to specific archangels. (NOTE: > Some of these over-lap. Feel free to mix and match. The suggestions > are made specifically to reflect the interests of a particular > arch-angel, but that doesn't mean you can't share an oath with a > malakite of a different Master...) > >Blandine. > >1. Spend at least 1 night per year/month/week "patrolling" the >Marches, searching for a chance to battle evil in these realms, and >protecting the dreams of honourable mortals from Diabolical incursion. Reverse of the above. Once a year almost seems lazy. >David > >1. Use no weapon other than a hammer, or bare hands. A pick should be usable, considering the mining background of David. >2. Swear to train X number of humans in self-defense every >year/month/week >3. Spend a number of hours every year/month/week training a group to >work together for mutual self-protection (security force, street-gang, >etc.) As with Blandine, the year requirement isn't very well-placed. Training for a few hours a year is rarely sufficient, and a month is barely so. >Dominic > >1. Destroy, immediately upon detection, any Celestials with more than >3 points of Dissonance. (judge/jury/executioner all rolled in one...) Good way to piss off Dominic. He takes the Seraphite anal-retentiveness to a new extreme: there are still proceedures and rules. Besides, the Dissonance of Dominic is to avoid pointing out the heretics. Killing them is a generally bad idea, since you MIGHT be wrong... >2. Seek out and report any Celestials with more than 1 point of >Dissonance at least once per year/month/week. Thus, they must use >their attunement as watchdogs/bloodhounds, and actively SEEK such >Celestials instead of just reporting them when they find them. This is more of a constant watch than you suggest; Dominic's primary purpose is to root out heretics in Heaven, not to fight the War. >Eli > >1. Spend a number of hours per year/month/week creating and >perfecting a new style of martial arts, armed combat, or ranged >combat. The year/month/week thing isn't the best plan, esp. considering the general vigilance the Malakim have. >2. Create/Write/publish poetry (or war-songs, or paintings) at >least once a year/month/week. Similar to a Samurai attempting to >understand his martial nature through the creative act of writing. Good idea, but again, the y/m/w doesn't work well. >Gabriel > >1. Punish at least one cruel person every year/month/week. One must >ACT upon one's convictions, or one is not living an honourable >existence! Then why wait a year? Y/m/w... >Janus >1. Utterly destroy any evil place/building they come across. These >malakites will not rest until the stain of evil has been wiped clean >by some form of cleansing. Thus, merely destroying the Diabolicals >who lived in a building isn't enough: one should also destroy the >building, so that true Change can occur through re-building! Um... why? Janus is about change. >Jean >1. Increase one's skill at Chemistry/Electronics/Engineering at least >once every year/month/week. Just assume that, unless I say otherwise, I disagree with the y/m/w ideas, 'kay? ;> BTW, this really doesn't seem like a Malakite thing. They're into battle, not books. >Jordi >1. Perform at least one act of eco-terrorism per year/month/week. > >2. Spend a number of hours every year/month/week working for an >ecological protection service. > >3. Spend a number of hours every year/month/week on patrol in a >specific endangered land. > >4. Shall not suffer an animal abuser to go unpunished (although not >necessarily unkilled...) Sadist ;> >Laurence > >1. spend a number of hours every year/month/week training and >drilling a combat team (Military, Security, street-gang, ...football >team?) Hey, if it's Notre Dame ;> >2. Involve themselves in a righteous battle/war at least once a >year/month/week. They will seek out and join in a mortal conflict to >prove that they are _DOING_ something with their time. They will >donate any profits they make from such an activity to a charity, such >as war orphans. > >Marc > >1. Make a certain amount of money every year/month/week off arms >sales, etc. You must be actively promoting your word, or you aren't >doing anything worthwhile. Since these guys value money as the >ultimate judge of how successful you are, then the more money you make >off war, the better you are working! Disagree. Armament generally = escalation. It's also hard to give up weapons to someone who actually needs them for a good cause and still make a profit. >Michael > >1. Involve themselves in single combat at least once a >year/week/month. > >2. Refuse any assistance in single combat, even if they are losing. >One shouldn't win if one can't win honourably, and through the force >of one's OWN convictions! "Laurence's Malakim are the most honorable fighters in existence (as opposed to Michael's, who win more often)." Don't see it. >3. Refuse any help, ever, in any combat. You fight alone. Always. This could be a problem in an all-out battle. >Novalis > >1. Spend a certain number of hours per year/month/week gardening > >2. Improve one's gardening/horticulture/flower-arranging skill every >year/month/week. Certain Samurai were the most amazing >flower-arrangers... > >Yves > >1. Create/Write/publish poetry at least once a year/month/week. >Similar to a Samurai attempting to understand his martial nature >through the creative act of writing. ... What does this have to do with Yves? >2. Read/write/collect/salvage books or articles on weapons, warfare, >etc. Ideally, then, this Malakite spends his "spare time" learning >about war, honour, personal combat, and so on. These guys have >practially memorized "The Art of War" and "The Sword". Ditto. >3. Give lectures on war, honour, personal combat, history of warfare, >etc. Thus, these malakites become Civil War Buffs (hey... how exactly >does one become a `buff'....), university lectureres, etc. You must >therefore be spending a certain number of character points on >perfecting your knowledge areas. Could get quite expensive, but >that's the price of honour. This isn't honour, it's history sometimes, and so only tangetally related to Yves. Kestrel, not sure of this exercise... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 15:08:59 +0000 From: sirilyan@the.link.ca Subject: Re: IN> Re: Re: List Management > At 8:09 PM -0500 2/26/97, Moriah - Steve Jackson Games wrote: > > As part of Internet mail, the subject line prefix is 'Subject:', so, the > >person initiating a piece of email will have 'Subject: This Subject' in the > >header of the email. Replies should have the same header, namely, 'Subject: > >This Subject' and *not* 'Subject: Re: This Subject'. Now, *this* twigged my suspicions, so it was away to the reference library to find out just what's going on here, and this is what I found: ISI's RFC index, containing RFC 822 (also known as STD 0011, the core standard for the formatting of Internet mail messages) includes a sample message with a subject beginning "Re:". The idiom also appears in the sample headers provided in RFC 2047, part of the MIME specification, itself on the standards track, though not yet (I think) in the STD series. It's good enough for the official standard on how mail messages across the Internet are formed; seems convincing to me. :-) > > This makes sorting email by title totally impractical. What? My mail clients (Pegasus Mail, Netscape Mail, and Pine) all three of them will properly ignore the "Re:" element of the subject when sorting by subject. Some of them even ignore the monstrosities like "Re: Re", "Re[2]:" and "REPLY:". > I could try to get rid of "Re:", but that means I'd have to edit it > by hand every single blasted time. And I don't even manage to remember > to add myself to the CC list on my PBEMs. And I don't want to shut it > off for all things anyway -- I *like* "Re"s! Agreed here; "Re:" is a de facto standard in *every* mail program I've used for MS-DOS, Windows, MacOS, and Unix, and I use it to find the core message of a thread allatime. Doug "Sirilyan" Sheppard Fnord! "Only damn fools quote themselves." - D. Sheppard, 1994 But EVERYONE quotes their web page! http://www.link.ca/~sirilyan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 21:16:21 -0600 (CST) From: Thany Subject: IN> Freed Lilim? What, if anything, would happen if a Lilim managed to pay off all her Geases? (for another, how do you spell the plural of geas?) - -- Disclaimer: Those opinions are mine, but have been presented in such a way that everyone will blame you for them. Sosumi. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 22:19:02 -0500 (EST) From: Don Fnordlioni Subject: Re: IN> Coolness of Evil By the by, for all of you keeping score at home, all this business about the Devil a) being as strong as God, and b) actually working /for/ God by providing an "evil" alternative to God, and thus, working for God, is all terribly heretical, and you'd all be burned if you wrote these things down only a few centuries ago. Don Fnordlioni, Habblah of Dark Humor | Don Fnordlioni | donfnord@pitt.edu | http://www.pitt.edu/~donfnord | Please use PGP encryption when writing Finger donfnord@pitt.edu for key ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 21:40:56 -0600 (CST) From: Thany Subject: Re: IN> Coolness of Evil On Thu, 27 Feb 1997, Don Fnordlioni wrote: > By the by, for all of you keeping score at home, all this business about > the Devil a) being as strong as God, and b) actually working /for/ God by > providing an "evil" alternative to God, and thus, working for God, is all > terribly heretical, and you'd all be burned if you wrote these things down > only a few centuries ago. If this were a few centuries ago, Steve Jackson probably would have been destroyed as a fetus. - -- Disclaimer: Those opinions are mine, but have been presented in such a way that everyone will blame you for them. Sosumi. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 21:45:05 -0600 (CST) From: "Q (not from Star Trek)" Subject: Re: IN> Freed Lilim? On Thu, 27 Feb 1997, Thany wrote: > > What, if anything, would happen if a Lilim managed to pay off all her > Geases? > (for another, how do you spell the plural of geas?) Well, in Shadowrun, an rpg which also uses the term geas, although with a different meaning, the plural of geas is geasa. one geas, two geasa. - -Q > > -- > Disclaimer: Those opinions are mine, but have been presented in such a way > that everyone will blame you for them. Sosumi. > - --------------------------------------- "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." -Albert Einstein Scott "Q" Meyer Scott.E.Meyer@wheaton.edu http://johnh.wheaton.edu/~smeyer ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 21:46:19 -0600 (CST) From: "Q (not from Star Trek)" Subject: Re: IN> Coolness of Evil On Thu, 27 Feb 1997, Don Fnordlioni wrote: > > By the by, for all of you keeping score at home, all this business about > the Devil a) being as strong as God, and b) actually working /for/ God by > providing an "evil" alternative to God, and thus, working for God, is all > terribly heretical, and you'd all be burned if you wrote these things down > only a few centuries ago. well, in terms of b>, read the book of Job recently? - -Q - --------------------------------------- "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." -Albert Einstein Scott "Q" Meyer Scott.E.Meyer@wheaton.edu http://johnh.wheaton.edu/~smeyer ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 21:50:25 -0600 From: jimmie@io.com Subject: IN> Processed Cheese Food >Oh, I have to interject here, Proceesed Cheese Food is a manifestation of >the Divine! ;) I'd be inclined to say diabolical. In fact, I believe there was such a relic in an old Pyriamid magazine, but I cant recall which one. -TheRaven, Demon of Procrastination, Shedim Knight of Fate ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 20:00:16 -0800 (PST) From: Raven <94fa193@dvc.edu> Subject: Re: IN> Freed Lilim? On Thu, 27 Feb 1997, Thany wrote: > > What, if anything, would happen if a Lilim managed to pay off all her > Geases? The only restriction for 'working' for Lilith is the nine favors. This is in place of having to support her Word or gaining Dissonance under special circumstances, like other Superiors. However, you also don't get any nifty attunements or anything. So, once you've worked off the favors, you're free. You still have a home in Hell, but are not bound to any Superior. No one commands you; no man, no Prince. (Oops, sorry. That's Vampire. Do I get Dissonance for that?) > (for another, how do you spell the plural of geas?) Geasa. By the way, Hi. I'm new to the list. My first 24 hours of lurking have been interesting. Just as a formality, I'll apologize in advance for any questions I may ask that have been answered in previous threads. |\ /| | | |~~~ |\ | "It's a hundred and six miles to Chicago, we've |_\ /_| | | |__ | \| got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, |\ | | \ | | | | it's dark, and we're wearing sunglasses." | \ | | \| |___ | | "Hit it." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 23:04:10 -0500 (EST) From: HarlinHirs@aol.com Subject: IN> A few thinking points on "Fallen Angels" As a result of various discussions on this list, I've been doing a LOT of reading. I started with the Davidson _Dictionary of Angels_, and the following could easily have been drawn solely from there. I thought this could prove interesting from a RP standpoint when creating new Princes or word-bound infernals who've been around a long time... REASONS WHY ANGELS FELL: (Or were they pushed?) 1) Lucifer's sin: Pride or ambition. 2) Genesis 6:2 (New International Version) "The sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose." (Note: It's not ME deciding this, it's a whole lot of dead rabbis...) In other words, the angels were tempted by the beauty of women, and fell... right into their arms. This is actually the most frequent attribution when there is a legend or reference to the reason why a specific named angel fell. 3) Whole legions of angels were destroyed or cast out of Heaven simply because they didn't sing the right hymn at the right time. (I'm not making this up...) 4) And, of course, a few "pagan" gods never got caught by Uriel, and wound up joining forces with Lucifer instead of running to Beleth's side of the Marches or getting skewered. 5) (Which should be right next to #2, actually, as it's related) Angels were set to watch over the affairs of humanity and simply "Went native." This seems like the Gregori's situation in IN... You can see how an old-school Demon Prince might have a different attitude toward the war if s/he fell due to #3... "Sheesh! I overslept one day in all of eternity and showed up late for choir practice, and POW! Hell, here I come..." vs. #1... "Well, I thought I could beat God at Its own game, but someone must have snitched on me... Win some, lose some, I guess." There are other reasons, but these five seem most prominent from what I can find... Paul. Ofanim of Yves, begging for the word "Pointless Research". Special Rite: Fall asleep in the basement of the Library of Congress. +1 essence. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 20:06:16 -0800 (PST) From: Raven <94fa193@dvc.edu> Subject: Re: IN> Processed Cheese Food On Thu, 27 Feb 1997 jimmie@io.com wrote: > > >Oh, I have to interject here, Proceesed Cheese Food is a manifestation of > >the Divine! ;) > > I'd be inclined to say diabolical. In fact, I believe there was such a > relic in an old Pyriamid magazine, but I cant recall which one. Yes, the 40 Slices of Cheese. They were given to homeless remnant demon by some shelter, so she poured her contempt and hatred into it, imbuing it with the Song of Revulsion at level 5. Charming, huh? Pyramid #13, BTW. |\ /| | | |~~~ |\ | "It's a hundred and six miles to Chicago, we've |_\ /_| | | |__ | \| got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, |\ | | \ | | | | it's dark, and we're wearing sunglasses." | \ | | \| |___ | | "Hit it." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 22:15:41 -0600 (CST) From: fish Subject: Re: IN> Freed Lilim? On Thu, 27 Feb 1997, Raven wrote: > The only restriction for 'working' for Lilith is the nine favors. This is > in place of having to support her Word or gaining Dissonance under > special circumstances, like other Superiors. However, you also don't get > any nifty attunements or anything. Actually, Free Lilim are considered to be Servitors of Lilith, according to Derek. I'm personally a little unsure as to whether that applies in all circumstances, or until they run out of Geases, or simply while they're on a Geas-mission. So in a manner of speaking they do have access to rites... > Superior. No one commands you; no man, no Prince. (Oops, sorry. That's > Vampire. Do I get Dissonance for that?) Nah, Prince is also In Nomine. Demon Prince and all that. -- fish. | fish flowers (i don't exist!) ><> |\ |\ \ / | | | |\ | > \/ |/| | awflower@midway.uchicago.edu, eidolon@io.com | |< /\ |/| | http://student-www.uchicago.edu/users/awflower/index.html | | \ / \ | | ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 20:33:45 -0800 (PST) From: Raven <94fa193@dvc.edu> Subject: Re: IN> The Four Horsemen > >Kestrel: > >I'm not. I have a low opinion of Christians in general, particularly > >the ones who proclaim it from the mountaintops. Oh really? Statistically speaking, there's a good chance that at least one person you're on good terms with is Christian, and even goes to church on Sunday, but surprise surprise, he doesn't preach or proselytize every chance he gets. He just believes in the Christian god and chooses to worship Him. I, personally, am not Christian, although I was raised Mormon, which does gove me a unique theological perspective (Mormon beliefs have some unique differences from 'standard' Christianity). I do know a number of Christians, even Catholics, who I am good friends with. They don't preach, they're pretty open minded, and I get along with them fine. I am greatly troubled by some of the things that have been done in teh name of God in the past; so are my Christian friends, and I would gather, most Christians. The Roman Catholic Church has been the biggest offender in this realm, at least as far a judeo-christian religions. However, it has generally been the church's /leadership/ that has been corrupt, /not/ the masses of Christian people who made up Europe's population during the Crusades and witch hunts. I am trying my best not to flame here, but I get deeply disturbed when people start categorically dismissing people based on their religion. It's no better than basing it on skin color or gender. Normally, I wouldn't go through this trouble, but since the game under discussion deals greatly with religious issues, I feel that a generous dose of religious tolerance is important. To illustrate why I'm so touchy about this: A few years back, I was involved with 'The Pagan Club', a club at my college for members of so-called pagan religions (strictly, it means heavily nature-oriented religions, but they let in members of any religion, including Christian.) In general, the club was a forum for members to learn about religions other than their own, to meet members of their own religion so they could gather for religious practices if they wished, and to educate the campus and community about the religions represented. Not preaching, but to get people to realize that a 'witch' (or wiccan, as thet call themselves) is not a Satanist, but a nature worshipper. (Nature religions got lumped together as Satanic by many Church officials during the dark ages, to discourage their practice. Monst people still don't know what a 'real' witch is.) Now, this would seem all fine and dandy, but the club president at the time seemed to have some problems. He was preaching religious tolerance, but refused to practice it, especially towards Christians. He would demand that they respect the religions represented by the club, but would not respect /their/ religion. He openly derided and insulted Christian groups and campus clubs, as well as the religion itself. When some of the clubs members, including the vice-president and myself, officially challenged his actions during a club meeting, he just chuckled and ignored us. We left the club immediately. That president was never re-elected, but I don't think the club ever really lost the stain he made. The pagan community at large avoided the club. That, as well as bad management,quickly led to the club's downfall. So, whenever someone makes a blanket statement about a religion, it really raises my hackles, because of the personal experience I had with religious intolerance. I wasn't even on the receiving end of any, and it still made me sick to my stomach. So please, let's try to be open minded about this kind of thing. (Ye Gods, I hope this isn't too spammy...) |\ /| | | |~~~ |\ | "It's a hundred and six miles to Chicago, we've |_\ /_| | | |__ | \| got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, |\ | | \ | | | | it's dark, and we're wearing sunglasses." | \ | | \| |___ | | "Hit it." ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #46 ****************************** The material here is (C) 1996 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.