From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Mar 13 18:44:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by deliverator.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA28274; Thu, 13 Mar 1997 18:43:23 -0600 (CST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA01856 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 13 Mar 1997 18:46:17 -0600 Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 18:46:17 -0600 Message-Id: <199703140046.SAA01856@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #70 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, March 13 1997 Volume 01 : Number 070 In this digest: IN> Fwd: HUMOR: If college students had written the bible Re: IN> Religion IN> Knights Templar, Jesus surviving, et al (Long!) Re: IN> Knights Templar, Jesus surviving, et al (Long!) IN> [theo] Nature of Jesus IN> INS/MV v. IN IN> Knights Templar, Jesus surviving, et al (Long!) IN> Demon Prince Suggestion... IN> Credo, was: [theo] Nature of Jesus IN> Random questions. Re: IN> Religion - Prophets Re: Breeding again (Re: IN> Ponderables) Re: IN> Random questions. Re: IN> Random questions. Re: IN> Random questions. Re: IN> Religion - Prophets Re: IN> Demon Prince Suggestion... IN>The Seductions of Night ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 19:32:46 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Fwd: HUMOR: If college students had written the bible Okay, so it's fluff... It's somewhat on-topic fluff... >------- Forwarded Message > >Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 09:49:38 -0800 >From: Ellen Levy Finch >Subject: HUMOR: If college students had written the bible > > IF COLLEGE STUDENTS HAD WRITTEN THE BIBLE > >Top ten ways the Bible would have been different if written by college >students. > >10) Loaves and Fishes replaced by Pizza and Chips. > >9) Ten Commandments are actually only five, but because they are > double-spaced and written in a large font, they look like ten. > >8) Forbidden fruit would have been eaten because it wasn't dorm food. > >7) Paul's Letter to the Romans become Paul's E-Mail to the Romans. > >6) Reason Cain killed Abel: They were roommates. > >5) The place where the end of the world occurs: not the the Plains > of Armageddon, but rather Finals. > >4) Book of Armaments would be in there somewhere. > >3) Reason why Moses and followers walked in the desert for 40 years: > They didn't want to ask directions and look like a Freshman. > >2) Tower of Babel blamed for Foreign Language requirement. > >1) Instead of God creating the world in six days and resting on the > seventh, He would have put it off until the night before it was due > and then pulled an all-nighter and hoped no one noticed. > >------- End of Forwarded Message ------------------------------ Date: 12 Mar 97 23:41:42 EST From: Moriah - Steve Jackson Games <73407.515@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: IN> Religion >Bodhi: >Thank you, Moriah, for this post. I was feeling a little guilty about one >response-post that was adamantly opposed to my Archangel of Compassion >happily accepting the furthering of his Word by Buddhists. The post >essentially was telling me not to cloud the issue too much, and that >Buddhism is Heretical from the Divine perspective (within the mechanics of >the game). While Buddhism is not monotheistic in the sense that it professes One, Personal God; it *is* monistic in its view of reality. And in the traditional Big Three of monotheism, monism is monotheism without the personalism. So, it is possible for a celestial, knowing that there is a personal God, to encourage the aspect of God's Passive Unity within Buddhism. In the ecumenical movement, Christian monks, nuns, and mystics often find a sensibility of Buddhism that they find attractive. >I now get a clearer impression that Celestials, while they may be >privy to information that we are not, are still NOT subject to the >only Truth out there. For all they know, Buddhists may have a >direct-connection to understanding God. Or Zoroastrians. Or Native >American Shamanic traditions. Exactly. Buddhism understands the unity of God. Zoroastrianism understands the dualist conflict of choosing Good or Evil. NAStradition understands the Great Spirit. >Personally, I like the idea of a few celestials who have come to see >special insight in the non-standard religions, and who perhaps have a >special place in their hearts (wherever they may happen store >them...) for non-christian/non-islamic/non-jewish theology. Certainly. >I wonder... just _who_ up there gets a kick out of Navajo >spirituality/shamanism... hmm...I know a couple of shamans, and three >elders, and I wonder if they'd be willing to talk about gaming... Jordi and Novalis for starters. Peace, Moriah ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 23:10:32 +0000 From: "Bodhi" Subject: IN> Knights Templar, Jesus surviving, et al (Long!) Whoa, whoa... Let me just say that the summary of the book listed was not a cohesive argument, but rather a brief over-view, non-referenced, of a book that I thought was a fun read. I never said I believed any of it. Neither did I say that I didn't believe it. Like most of this stuff, I have to suspend judgement, in the hopes that clarity develops over time. However, I did find one cute part. The "feature of Freemasonry that Christ didn't die..." hee hee hee. Sorry, I **know** what is accepted in Freemasonry (yes, I'm a Master Mason, and there's nothing secret about me)... there is a rule against discussing Religion or Politics. You can't do it. It goes against every rule. All men are brothers! You can't judge a man on his religion, or his politics, therefore you can't talk about it. period. This part or the rebuttal is waaayy off the mark. This does not discredit the rest of the rebuttal. Indeed, it shows a sincere attempt on somebody's part to refute an argument through cultured dialogue and thoughtful response. However, remember that the original discussion was a brief synopsis, for fun and recreational use only, from memory, of a book read over 8 years ago. If somebody wants to refute the specifics of that sort of argument, go ahead. Instead, could we leave this sort of **highly specified** argument to private e-mail? I'm sorry, but I feel personally responsible for causing a possible waste of band-width. I don't wish to argue the merits of the book... I found it a fun read, well thought-out (from the author's perspective... so was The Prince, but I don't have to agree with his conclusions...) and I left the title for anybody to peruse on their own. I'm not about to make a career out of defending a work that was summarized on a lark because somebody thought the idea *for a game* was nifty. If your friend finds fault with their logic, so be it. Have him read the book before refuting the argument (instead of refuting a forwarded synopsis from a GAMING LIST!?!?). Your friend obviously has an analytical mind, and a keen interest in refuting this sort of position. More power to him. Just not here, okay? Let him do it in an appropriate place, for appropriate reasons, against appropriate opponents, who make appropriately thought-out primary arguments, and offer appropriate level of consideration to his obviously _extremely_ well-worked rebuttal. Hell, if I wasn't so busy, I'd take up the contrary position just for the fun of the argument... but NOT because there's any strength to either side. Oh... by the way... I _did_ make a correction about the Jewish-tradition/Roman-tradition typo. This just goes to prove my point. This was wasted thought, wasted electrons, and wasted time because your friend didn't even have the proper synopsis to criticise, let alone a DECENT argument to refute. Let him read the ACTUAL book, then rip it to shreds. He sounds like he is more than capable of doing so. I hope he enjoys it. More power to him. Let's not waste this list-serv space on this rather purile little battlefield, though, shall we? BUT______ If he does want to send me a reference where he got his quaint ideas about Freemasonry, I'd love to find out. I always need a good laugh. It's too bad so few people know what actually happens in a Freemason's lodge. If the mysteries were dispelled, people would find us so very boring!! Mostly, we support each other, raise money for charity, and talk about mathematics-as-moral-lessons. No biggy. But NO WAY do you discuss religion, politics, or anything of that nature. This is way, way forbidden!! All topics of controversy are left outside the door, because inside the door is a refuge of support and fraternity. ANYTHING like what your friend suggested would be laughed out the door. HEY... that gives me an idea. I'm going to tell my Christian Brothers tomorrow night that they're supposed to believe Christ didn't die on the cross. They'll love it!! PLEASE... Travel with a Light Heart. Walk in Beauty, Rob Wolff / Bodhi rob@v-wave.com A Master and his Apprentice were walking down the road, when they found a prostitute attempting to cross a stream. The master lifted her up in his arms, and set her down on the other side. The apprentice worried about the impropriety of such an act. When he finally got around to mentioning this to the master, the master replied, "I set her down five miles ago... why are you still carrying her?" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 22:46:00 -0800 From: "Joe Fulgham" Subject: Re: IN> Knights Templar, Jesus surviving, et al (Long!) > Whoa, whoa... > > Let me just say that the summary of the book listed was not a > cohesive argument, but rather a brief over-view, non-referenced, of > a book that I thought was a fun read. > > I never said I believed any of it. Neither did I say that I didn't > believe it. Like most of this stuff, I have to suspend judgement, in > the hopes that clarity develops over time. Whoa... I just posted his reply (which, yes was from someone who doesn't play In Nomine, and went at it with his attacking analytical mind) because it contained some pretty cool information, just like the original post. I really liked the Knights Templar idea, and may use some of it in In Nomine when I get a group going. I should have mentioned this from the outset, sorry. Despite Rob's attacking style, he had some really interesting insights that I thought the list might want to see. *That* was the reason for my forwarding it to the list, and I should have made it clear. > However, I did find one cute part. The "feature of Freemasonry > that Christ didn't die..." hee hee hee. Oh sure, and we're supposed to believe what you say about your secret society... And I suppose the Freemason's aren't responsible for the New York Rangers beating the Vancouver Canucks in the Stanley Cup finals either... [remainder snipped] - --------------------------------------------------------- Joe Fulgham |"Expecting the world to treat you puck@holycow.com | fairly because you are a good www.holycow.com | person is a little like expecting PGP Key available | the bull not to attack you because Puck Undernet #mtg | you are a vegetarian. -Dennis Wholey ------------------------------ Date: 13 Mar 97 01:56:08 EST From: Moriah - Steve Jackson Games <73407.515@CompuServe.COM> Subject: IN> [theo] Nature of Jesus >John Maurer >Actually the Church faught bitterly over Jesus' status. Some believers felt >that Jesus was fully divine and some felt that he was fully human. Some had a mix. ;) >An interesting card game exists called "Credo". It's great fun. Published by The Chaosium. Peace, Moriah ------------------------------ Date: 13 Mar 97 01:56:06 EST From: Moriah - Steve Jackson Games <73407.515@CompuServe.COM> Subject: IN> INS/MV v. IN >Raven: >THAT [the differences between the French and the SJ Games version] would be >nice to see. If the SJG guys could be nice enough to post that article on >teh IN page (hint hint, assuming the article exists), that would be >oh-so-nice of them... Noted. However, it is a very low priority on our part since we're all overloaded with the work that *has to* get done for this year's supplements. If a fan did all the work... no problem. Peace, Moriah ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 00:01:56 +0000 From: "Bodhi" Subject: IN> Knights Templar, Jesus surviving, et al (Long!) > Oh sure, and we're supposed to believe what you say about your secret > society... And I suppose the Freemason's aren't responsible for the New > York Rangers beating the Vancouver Canucks in the Stanley Cup finals > either... > > [remainder snipped] Oh NO... you've found out our terrible secret. ( ;-) ) Now we'll have to send our death squads after you. Those Shriner Bikes... think about it... it's really a motorcycle gang over 10 000 strong!!! (the reason we use old guys is that we like our victims to suffer... death by boredom... they tell you old stories until you're happy to go visit the Great Architect! ) All I want to know is... WHO THE HELL IS STOPPING THE EDMONTON OILERS!!! I mean, it must be a Diabolical influence... 'cause We're the GOOD GUYS!!! Pax Walk in Beauty, Rob Wolff / Bodhi rob@v-wave.com A Master and his Apprentice were walking down the road, when they found a prostitute attempting to cross a stream. The master lifted her up in his arms, and set her down on the other side. The apprentice worried about the impropriety of such an act. When he finally got around to mentioning this to the master, the master replied, "I set her down five miles ago... why are you still carrying her?" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 00:06:06 +0000 From: "Bodhi" Subject: IN> Demon Prince Suggestion... You know... For years, My friends and I have often joked about the Demon Prince of Procrastination. He's the one who keeps me from finishing my Thesis on time, etc. However, the more I think about it, the more I like this idea. It's not as "hard-core" as my usual stuff; it _is_ a little more light-hearted than my last 3 archangels. However, there is merit in the idea of a Diabolical influence. It also provides a nice Juxtaposition for the suggested Angel of Patience. Let me know what you think. Walk in Beauty, Rob Wolff / Bodhi rob@v-wave.com A Master and his Apprentice were walking down the road, when they found a prostitute attempting to cross a stream. The master lifted her up in his arms, and set her down on the other side. The apprentice worried about the impropriety of such an act. When he finally got around to mentioning this to the master, the master replied, "I set her down five miles ago... why are you still carrying her?" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 23:40:06 -0800 (PST) From: Anders Swenson Subject: IN> Credo, was: [theo] Nature of Jesus On 13 Mar 1997, Moriah - Steve Jackson Games wrote: > >John Maurer > >Actually the Church faught bitterly over Jesus' status. Some believers felt > >that Jesus was fully divine and some felt that he was fully human. > > Some had a mix. ;) > > > >An interesting card game exists called "Credo". > > It's great fun. Published by The Chaosium. > Realizing how off topic this is, I will third this. I was in one game of Credo where the Nicine Creed began "We believe in many gods, amoung them are..." Siriously, if you are intrested insome of the thoughts that went into the roots of the cristian church (possably as adventure ideas?) I highly reccomend this game. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 23:50:34 -0800 (PST) From: Anders Swenson Subject: IN> Random questions. I was talking to a friend of mine earlier and he mentioned that the faq was very useful, but it didn't answer his main questions which were about Remnants: The main thing was is it possable for a remnant to regain their celestial forces, through game-play (ie with eps)? Realizing it would take major effort on the part of the remnant, to even realize that such a thing was possible it could, however make an intrseting story. An amusing note. Amoung the major Archangels, Rafael is not even mentioned. in fact his Word (at least the traditional one) is a discord that being Mercy. Aern't politics fun? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 21:52:16 +1000 (EST) From: Peter Frederick Subject: Re: IN> Religion - Prophets Dear Patrick (and List). >> At 03:38 PM 11/3/97 EST, you wrote: >> >>Gregory Littman: >> >>That sounds good. Does it apply equally to the Archangels though? Wouldn't >> >>Michael have had enough of a chat with the Almighty to know who Jesus was? >> >>At the very least, wouldn't SOME Angel have checked out Jesus 2,000 years ago >> >>just to see if the miracles were real, if nothing else. >> > >> Peter Frederick Wrote >> IMHO it is likely that the major figures of the worlds religions were either >> Celestials (of either side playing out important Roles, were >> visited by a Messenger of God or the sort of people who went on to be Saints >> (as defined in game). Interesting to think what might have happened to >> these spirits/souls. I am taken with an idea at the moment [Nod to Rob >> Wolff / Bodhi] that Jesus and Buddha were the same person, well >> reincarnated, but you get the idea. Further speculation as to who else >> might have been reincarnations of whom is left to the interest of individuals. >> >Patrick O'Duffy, Brisbane, Australia Replied > I rather doubt that angels were behind any of the major prophets and >earthly religions. There's a definite 'hands-off' rule applying to >humanity at large, with exceptions for furthering the cause of a Word or >assisting humans in vital areas. Demons might try to start false >religions, but if they got caught they'd be in _serious_ trouble. Yeah I can see your point, but .... ain't there always a But. What about the reports of various religious texts that say the authors were visited by Celestial spirits? Where these people, who went on to write very important social documents, simply deluded? Also the in game sources tell us different. The description of Gabrial makes it clear that she did intervene to introduce Islam, and obliquely, that she was responsible for the conception of Jesus. This is big time meddling and I presume was done on the almost direct guidence of God. But then when an Angel is moved by their perception of the Symphony isn't that being directed by God? ** Remainder of Very Nice Post Cilpped for Brevity ** Thanking you for your Indulgence. Yours Peter. Email to peterf@geko.net.au "Whoso loveth God truely must not expect to be loved by Him in return." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 10:09:02 -0500 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: Breeding again (Re: IN> Ponderables) On Mar 12, 5:41pm, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > Subject: Breeding again (Re: IN> Ponderables) > At 3:56 PM -0500 3/12/97, Robert Barrett wrote: > [...] > >I want to make celestial-human reproduction a rare and wondrous thing [...] > > I like John's ideas, but they make celestial/human > >halfbreeds a bit too common (in my estimation). 'Too common' is a matter of opinion, and the GM's whim. Humans rarely have enough essence and cannot spend it appropriately. Angels/Demons _rarely_ wish to interbreed with humans and it takes a conscious act of will (and essence expenditure) with them. > Also, requiring the celestial parent(s) to give up Forces for > the kid could stop most PCs from making *that* sacrifice... > ("You want a half-breed? You gotta give up a Force. No, you don't > get it back unless you pay the 10 character points for it. Life's > tough. It's a sacrifice, an expression of selflessness. [for angels; > for demons, it's the price you pay for long-term potential.]") > > Though it's probably quite true that the smart celestial should > petition their Superior for permission before going around making > half-breeds, even in a less "rare and wonderous thing" catagory. Heh. And you thought trying to go out on Friday night as a teenager was bad! "Ummm... I'd like to go to earth and create a half-breed. Can I, huh, can I?" ;) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | "A fundamental principle of economics is that the | | more you tax something, the less you get of it. | | In this country we tax success most of all." | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 10:20:07 -0500 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Random questions. On Mar 12, 11:50pm, Anders Swenson wrote: > Subject: IN> Random questions. > > I was talking to a friend of mine earlier and he mentioned that the faq > was very useful, but it didn't answer his main questions which were about > Remnants: > > The main thing was is it possable for a remnant to regain their celestial > forces, through game-play (ie with eps)? Realizing it would take major > effort on the part of the remnant, to even realize that such a thing was > possible it could, however make an intrseting story. > > An amusing note. Amoung the major Archangels, Rafael is not even > mentioned. in fact his Word (at least the traditional one) is a discord > that being Mercy. Aern't politics fun? Netrep Opinion Follows: Though the rules haven't been hashed out, I would say that a creature with 0 Forces in an area can never generate that on their own. They must have the help of a Being of Great Power. This is no light undertaking! That remnants exist at all is a sign that a) They can't be helped or b) the effort is not worth the reward. So, when you get right down to it, you have to, as a addle-minded remnant, convince an Archangel or Demon Prince to invest a lot of effort (and Essence) into you. Creatures with Will/0 usually don't have the sticktoitiveness required to do this! As a GM (which is even less official than the NetRep stuff above!), I'd allow another PC to _give_ a Celestial Force to a remnant (with the permission of their Superior). Oh, and I'd probably make any PC remnant spend cp's as well. Plus there would be other matters involved to make such an endeavor more... interesting. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | "A fundamental principle of economics is that the | | more you tax something, the less you get of it. | | In this country we tax success most of all." | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 09:39:41 -0800 (PST) From: Anders Swenson Subject: Re: IN> Random questions. On Thu, 13 Mar 1997, John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: > On Mar 12, 11:50pm, Anders Swenson wrote: > > Subject: IN> Random questions. > > > > I was talking to a friend of mine earlier and he mentioned that the faq > > was very useful, but it didn't answer his main questions which were about > > Remnants: > > > > The main thing was is it possable for a remnant to regain their celestial > > forces, through game-play (ie with eps)? Realizing it would take major > > effort on the part of the remnant, to even realize that such a thing was > > possible it could, however make an intrseting story. > > > > An amusing note. Amoung the major Archangels, Rafael is not even > > mentioned. in fact his Word (at least the traditional one) is a discord > > that being Mercy. Aern't politics fun? > > Netrep Opinion Follows: > Though the rules haven't been hashed out, I would say that a > creature with 0 Forces in an area can never generate that on > their own. They must have the help of a Being of Great > Power. This is no light undertaking! That remnants exist > at all is a sign that a) They can't be helped or b) the > effort is not worth the reward. > > So, when you get right down to it, you have to, as a addle-minded > remnant, convince an Archangel or Demon Prince to invest a > lot of effort (and Essence) into you. Creatures with Will/0 > usually don't have the sticktoitiveness required to do this! > > As a GM (which is even less official than the NetRep stuff > above!), I'd allow another PC to _give_ a Celestial Force > to a remnant (with the permission of their Superior). Oh, > and I'd probably make any PC remnant spend cp's as well. > Plus there would be other matters involved to make such an > endeavor more... interesting. > Pertty much what I thought, as a GM , though I would want there to ba some way to do this otherwise, playing a remnent in a mixed group would be even more discouraging the palying a soldier, especilly given the remnent's aversion to things celestial. In the game I was in the soldier was left prettymuch to his own devices, as the Cherib and the Kiroitate(sp?) went celestial to do some hunting, result, one board player. With any luck, things will go a bit more smoothly next time. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 14:06:35 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Random questions. If there is, theoretically, any way at all of restoring a remnant, wouldn't angels and Archangels sometimes attempt it? Simply out of charity and mercy? It seems to me that the angels of In Nomine are in danger of turning into little more than secret agents with an amusing set of superpowers and eccentric bosses, unless they sometimes just haul off and Do Good because it's the right thing to do and thus actually act angelic. Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 07:04:36 +1000 From: "Patrick O'Duffy" Subject: Re: IN> Religion - Prophets Peter Frederick wrote: > > Dear Patrick (and List). > > >> At 03:38 PM 11/3/97 EST, you wrote: > >> >>Gregory Littman: > >> >>That sounds good. Does it apply equally to the Archangels though? Wouldn't > >> >>Michael have had enough of a chat with the Almighty to know who Jesus was? > >> >>At the very least, wouldn't SOME Angel have checked out Jesus 2,000 > years ago > >> >>just to see if the miracles were real, if nothing else. > >> > > >> Peter Frederick Wrote > >> IMHO it is likely that the major figures of the worlds religions were either > >> Celestials (of either side playing out important Roles, were > >> visited by a Messenger of God or the sort of people who went on to be Saints > >> (as defined in game). Interesting to think what might have happened to > >> these spirits/souls. I am taken with an idea at the moment [Nod to Rob > >> Wolff / Bodhi] that Jesus and Buddha were the same person, well > >> reincarnated, but you get the idea. Further speculation as to who else > >> might have been reincarnations of whom is left to the interest of > individuals. > >> > >Patrick O'Duffy, Brisbane, Australia Replied > > I rather doubt that angels were behind any of the major prophets and > >earthly religions. There's a definite 'hands-off' rule applying to > >humanity at large, with exceptions for furthering the cause of a Word or > >assisting humans in vital areas. Demons might try to start false > >religions, but if they got caught they'd be in _serious_ trouble. > > Yeah I can see your point, but .... ain't there always a But. What about > the reports of various religious texts that say the authors were visited by > Celestial spirits? Where these people, who went on to write very important > social documents, simply deluded? Possibly, in some cases (I figure Ezekiel was eating some _serious_ mushrooms). In other cases, they made it up to sound convincing. And in a few cases, it was a Celestial intervening directly. Remember, IN is based on concepts popular through history. Angels and demons don't _need_ to exist to influence religion and the religious. Those prone to 'religious hysteria' will imagine they see divinity in their own delusions, and conmen will milk the beliefs of the populous to suit their agenda. > > Also the in game sources tell us different. The description of Gabrial > makes it clear that she did intervene to introduce Islam, and obliquely, > that she was responsible for the conception of Jesus. This is big time > meddling and I presume was done on the almost direct guidence of God. But > then when an Angel is moved by their perception of the Symphony isn't that > being directed by God? I don't have my copy of the rules handy (I'd get it, but I have 2 kittens in my lap right now). How exactly did Gabriel intervene? Was it while serving her Word, or was it at another's instruction? If it was her Word, was Islam a deliberate result or a side effect? The conception of Jesus - well, Gabriel (male version) is often quoted as being the 'divine inseminator' (sorry) of Mary, but that may be just hearsay. It's very hard to seperate religious history and myth away from in-game history and myth here. IN uses large parts of the Bible and ignores others, with bits from other religious works and a pile made up from whole cloth. We can assume that humans had enough contact with named celestials in the past to incorprate their names, and perhaps some other data, into their mythology. Bloody hard to seperate fact from fiction now, though. So, I take ideas like 'Gabriel isneminated Mary' with a bloody large grain of salt. Yes, I would say that if an Angel does something the Symphony requires, it's the will of God (actually, I figure that anything that doesn't generate dissonance is the will of Big G). - -- Patrick O'Duffy, Brisbane, Australia You're perfect, yes it's true But without me you're only you Your menstruating heart It ain't bleedin' enough for two FAITH NO MORE, "Mid-Life Crisis" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 17:44:57 -0600 (CST) From: s012433@umslvma.umsl.edu (Brian Gracey) Subject: Re: IN> Demon Prince Suggestion... >You know... > >For years, My friends and I have often joked about the Demon Prince of >Procrastination. He's the one who keeps me from finishing my Thesis >on time, etc. > >However, the more I think about it, the more I like this idea. It's >not as "hard-core" as my usual stuff; it _is_ a little more >light-hearted than my last 3 archangels. However, there is merit in >the idea of a Diabolical influence. > >It also provides a nice Juxtaposition for the suggested >Angel of Patience. > >Let me know what you think. I liked the idea of the Archangel of Patience, and thought that she worked very well as a superior, but as to a Demon Prince of Procrastination? I think that would be even funnier if he was no more than a Word-Bound Demon (which is powerful enough), and in conjunction with his Word, he can just never seem to reach Princedom...thought? All Brian ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 18:42:32 -0600 (CST) From: s012433@umslvma.umsl.edu (Brian Gracey) Subject: IN>The Seductions of Night Here is the basic workup for my proposed campaign... (which can also be found on my webpage, where all campaign information will be posted and the action chronicled, for posterity of course...) Preliminary Notes Play will be based mainly in the Corporeal and Ethereal realms, with little Celestial action at first, though Celestial politics will surely be an issue... Corpreal location will be Small Town USA, yes that's right, the generic boony town. Don't worry, it will take better form as the campaign proceeds. Characters need not be native or familiar with the territory, they are "called," as will be explained at the beginning of the campaign. I would like to have a good mix of PCs, so anyone yearning to play a remnant, mundane, or another less played character, now's your chance. Warning, there will be constant mixing of divine and infernal, even to the point of working together... Follow the standard rules for character creation, and mail submissions to me with the subject of "Seduction: Character Submission." Though I crave diversity, in your character creation please consider (hint hint) abilitys giving access to the Ethereal... The game as yet is currently OPEN. I know all of this is pretty vague, but I really do have a plan, so please, join the game and find out for yourself...it'll be fun, I promise... When do we start? As stated above, give all character submissions a subject of "Seduction: Character Submission." Once all character submissions have been reviewed, a group selected, and the lucky people informed, the game will begin with a background post from me and a beginning scene, and from that point on all play will be on a post response basis. So, all I need now are players (hint hint). Posting Guidelines All posts concerning the campaign should have a subject beginning with "Seduction:" and followed by the basic content, such as character submission, question, etc. This will make things easier on all of us who deal with large amounts of e-mail. Posts will have two sections, the in character, which will be denoted by quotation marks, and the out of character, which will be in []. The in character section will of course be written in the third person, describing your character's action, while the out of character will be used to ask me questions, to indicate the game mechanics concerning that which your character is attempting, so on and so forth. When posting during a "scene," all text from messages within that scene should be included. Once scenes change, as directed by me, the post will start fresh. There may be multiple scenes occuring at once, which not everyone in the group will be acting in, so make sure you remember which scene your character is in. Hold on, let me get my foot out of my mouth... Brian Gracey/Sanvi s012433@umslvma.umsl.edu sanvi@geocities.com The Celestial War: an In Nomine page http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/6889 ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #70 ****************************** The material here is (C) 1996 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.