From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Mar 20 18:14:12 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by deliverator.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA28154; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 17:00:50 -0600 (CST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA06632 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 17:03:12 -0600 Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 17:03:12 -0600 Message-Id: <199703202303.RAA06632@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #83 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, March 20 1997 Volume 01 : Number 083 In this digest: Re: IN> Yet another inspiration thought!!!! IN> Angelic Font Re: IN> Patron Saint of the Martial Arts Re: IN> New Angel (long) Re: IN> Yet another inspiration thought!!!! Re: IN> Re: Magic IN>Magick (WARNING LOTS OF OPINONS and LONG) Re: IN> Fundamentalist Manipulation Re: IN> Angelic Font Re: IN> Yet another inspiration thought!!!! Re: IN> Gen Con (was Safe Houses) IN> Yet another inspiration thought!!!! Re: IN> Fundamentalist Manipulation Re: IN> Why Lucifer is a Balseraph... Re: IN> Yet another inspiration thought!!!! Re: IN> New Angel (long) Re: IN> Why Lucifer is a Balseraph... Re: IN> Fundamentalist Manipulation Re: IN> Fundamentalist Manipulation Re: IN> Fundamentalist Manipulation Re: IN> road to hell (from Fundamentalist Manipulation) Re: IN> New Angel (long) Re: IN> Fundamentalist Manipulation Re: IN> New Angel (long) Re: IN> New Angel (long) Re: IN> Yet another inspiration thought!!!! Re: IN> Why Lucifer is a Balseraph... IN> angel(s) of death... IN> Dominic thoughts... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 08:34:35 -0600 (CST) From: Donald G Bixler Subject: Re: IN> Yet another inspiration thought!!!! > On Wed, 19 Mar 1997, Russ Collins wrote: > But the real question must be, what RPGs do the different Choirs and > Bands play. Ofanim *must* play GURPS - Ofanim are so *flexible*. ;) I honestly can't see Ofanim playing GURPS; they'd want something _fast_ and GURPS would bore them to tears (not that that is very hard). I think GURPS would be favored by the Elohim, while TOON would be right up an Ofanim's alley... Oops da Ogre, and the Malakim would stick to wargames... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 10:37:54 -0500 From: Hatcher Rhanyr Subject: IN> Angelic Font I know I am probably going to regret this (from the massive requests) but I have a font that is the Angelic Language acording to the Dictionary of Angels (i.e. a derivation of Hebrew). This isn't the font used in the document Angelica Lingua..... Hatcher Rhanyr "The Demon of Sleep Deprivation" BTW if there any other unusual Words that Angels or Demons might have, that you've come up with, I'd like to hear them! My fav so far is one a friend of mine came up with called "the Demon of Running With Scissors" (he's the guy that causes you to poke your eye out). :) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 09:58:52 -0600 (CST) From: Russ Collins Subject: Re: IN> Patron Saint of the Martial Arts On Thu, 20 Mar 1997, Peter Frederick wrote: [St. Bruce snipped] > "So I pray to Saint Bruce...." > "Saint Who?" > "Saint Bruce, the Patron Saint of Martial Arts. I say Saint Bruce send me > Victor Sage, and here you are." > from The Question published by DC Comics. Apologies to the author who's > name has temporarily forsaken my memory. Denny O'Neil, most likely. Russ Collins rgc@io.com Ave Maria! (Gee, it's good to see ya) Gettin' ecstatic an' Sorta dramatic an' Doing the Vatican Rag! -- Tom Lehrer ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 10:03:56 -0600 (CST) From: Brian Emord Subject: Re: IN> New Angel (long) On Thu, 20 Mar 1997, Raven wrote: > On Wed, 19 Mar 1997, Brian Emord wrote: > > > Well I think I have found my first angel of Dominic that I like... the > > only things that will change as he enters my campaign are: > > Medicine: this will be omitted as he will take the churches older view > > that once they confess they were guilty of such a DEADLY sin, they were > > well put to death, who cares about broken ribs if he is just going to be > > strung up. > As if the only application is Medicine in healing? You could use it to > tell just how much punishment a human body can take before it gives. And > you know ways to injure someone that may be painful, horrifying, even > crippling, but not lethal. > I was commenting only on what he presented as reasoning behind the skill being possessed by the demon/angel/person. But I see your point. It would be very useful to find those pressure points that REALLY HURT without much effort, as would acupuncture and maybe some forms of martial arts. > > Healing: Ethereal will stay ("Wake up damn it, you haven't confessed > > yet"), but corporeal will have to go, once someone recants and confesses, > > he gets the proper absolution and is sent to spend time with God...hehehe > > The tortures of the body are nothing compared to the tortures of the mind... > Torture isn't about pain; it's about fear. Pain can be tolerated. Ever > broken a bone? It hurts like hell, but you deal with it after a while. > Same thing with torture. Just inflicting pain does nothing. You need to > make the person fear you. And healing his mind could do away with that > fear you've so carefully built up. > My understanding of the Eth song of Healing is that it takes away hits to your mind that would make you UNCONSCIOUS, not fearful or affected in another such manner, although there has to be a song of fear or terror out there somewhere...;) On that note, how would you feel if you knew that when this guy beat the SH*T out of you and you finally fell unconscious from pain, he just brought you back to take more rather than letting your body gain a little reprieve. and finally, in the brutality that torture is/was the longest part of the torture (as far as the torturer was concerned) was waiting for the damn person to wake up after a session to be hit again... But again I can see where you are coming from. Have you ever been tortured? I am not talking professional "get- out-the-thumbscrews-and-hot-irons," I am talking about Dad or older siblings beating you up and basically incapacitating you... Pain, humiliation, anguish, as well as the fear of what they might do next, or that they will carry out their threats all add up... No single part of 'torture' can really be omitted without affecting the overall 'info-factor' (the info gleaned per unit of time spent with the subject). I think that about covers my point. Thank you for brining up those points though. I agree that sheer fear can affect someone (eg 1984) but if the person calls the initial bluff and you never finish up, then he won't be as apt to believe you if you try a similar tactic again. In some circumstances (albeit rare in modern times) people will not crack even under extreme duress ("What is the code??" "I am Sgt. Generic of the USAF serial..." "What is the code??" "I am Sgt. Generic of the..." ... etc.), But i digress.... just another thing to think about --> if a person truly believes in what they are protecting or if they are devoted to their cause they can be a hard nut to crack (something my players know all to well). Brian Emord Habbalah of Baal Whose word is Dirty Looks - --* BEGIN GEEKCODE BLOCK *-- GCS/E d(+)>++ s+:+ a? C+++(++++)$ UBLAHS++$ P+++$ L++ E W++ N o K++ w O++ M-->--- V-- PS(++) PE(+)(-) Y+ PGP- t+@ 5+@ X R+(+++)* tv b++>+++ DI+++$ D G++ e(*)>++++ h+(*) r++>+++ y+ - --* END GEEKCODE BLOCK *-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 11:39:24 -0600 (CST) From: Shadowcat Subject: Re: IN> Yet another inspiration thought!!!! On Thu, 20 Mar 1997, Kirt A. Dankmyer -- aka Loki wrote: > > But the real question must be, what RPGs do the different Choirs and > >Bands play. Ofanim *must* play GURPS - Ofanim are so *flexible*. ;) > > Yeah, but it's not _fast_ enough. I would think Ofanim would play > off-the-cuff homebrews, personally. If a published game system, Over the Edge. > > Seraphim would play In Nomine -- there are too many lies in other games. ;) > > Cherubim would play Castle Falkenstein. "I've sworn to protect the Queen, > and having given my word of honour, I will do so unto death." > > Elohim would play GURPS. "Such an interesting design. Simple, yet intricate." > > Malakim don't play RPGs, but they do play Magic: The Gathering. > > Kyriotates would each have a completely different preference that depended > on their personal perspective... Kyriotates would play RPG GROUPS. Both GM and all the players. ;-) > > Mercurians would play Amber. Nuff said. What would the Demon bands play? Shadowcat ******************************************************************************** There is no Saint with out a past ; and no Sinner with out a future ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 10:57:46 -0600 (CST) From: "Jared P. Buntain" Subject: Re: IN> Re: Magic On the list Q wrote: First post, though not new to the list. Deactivate the Lurking device. > What, exactly is their motivation? There are three possibilities. They > could be either good, neutral, or evil. Here I begin to grumble with your reasoning. This is a shallow description of possible motivations, even assuming that 'Gods and Goddesses' have motivations according to human standards. Which I will, cause Im human, and cant comment on more divine motivations. > A good deity should have no problem sitting back and letting God do the > work since they are on the same side. Or, they might disagree vilontly with His (and His angels) methods. Or His policy of not revealing Himself. There can be jealousy over the fact that Heaven and Hell are getting all the souls. And all the power. Stating that the lust for power is evil might not apply to diety level beings. After all, God seems to have waged a war for power with the other dietys. And there are many different definitions of "good". > A neutral deity should be interested only in maintaining a balance, which > is the current situation, so they should have no reason to want to return > to power. This is more a hold over from AD&D than a valid motivation for a diety. Its easier to define nuetrality in terms of different views on good. Balance dieties seem to ask for understanding of _all_ things, even those that are considered "evil" by others. And then the ability to support all things according to some master plan (the "balance"). What is God doing? He is supporting only those things that work with His master plan. The Diety of Balance here just has a broader definition of what works. A difference in style. For a diety, differences in style are absolutes. You dont compromise on those things, or you wouldnt be distinct entity capable of being worshiped. If your power and exsistance depend on that, your going to be very intractable about appearing to be like some other diety. > An evil deity would want to overthrow God and take over. In this case, > the perfect person to go to would be Lucifer, since they have the exact > same goals. Hehehe. But a truly evil diety isnt going to want to share the power with some upstart creation of another diety. No, the fight would be just as bitter against the "newbie" as against the Big Guy who kicked your butt all those years ago. Another motivation is absolute destruction. An evil diety might simply have a plan for the symphony so radically different, the world might as well be destroyed and recreated. From _our_ point of view, this is evil. And thats valid. But to say that a being with this motivation simply wants to _overthrow_ God is not covering it all. And Lucifer probably has _no_ interest in joining with such a being, especially in the long run, as that would mean his destruction as well. (see the Alvin Maker series by Orson Scott Card for a nice description of a Being with this motivation. And the interactions of God, the Devil and this Being (the Unmaker)). Can anyone chant "Ashtur Ashtur hes our man! Ashtu....aaaaackckc". :) These are just thoughts on motivations for Beings who would be called Gods. In Nomine hasnt addressed this yet (presumably it will, when the Marches come out), but it might add spice in a campaign to fight beings who werent soldiers of hell (or demons), but had a murkier (and far more dissonance causing to oppose) motivation.... :) Probably the best example whould be the Diety of Balance described (briefly) above. Not unlike in motivation to some of the more merciful Angels, but... They still oppose you. Because the version of the Symphony they are promoting is different than Gods. So to effectively fight them, you must _carefully_ find those areas that the beliefs differ in, and only conflict on those fronts, otherwise you would damage your own goals and Gods version of the Symphony. (As for other Beings trying to make thier own symphony, this is a matter of style. In Nomine could be thought to say that God is really the one true God, and the other beings are just deluded when they think of ordering creation thier way. Or, God is just the winner of a nasty little war. And the other beings are plotting on reversing that little upset. Either interpretation doesnt prevent the beings from _trying_, and thus coming in to conflict with Angels and others in Gods service (or, in some of the cases described, with Lucifer, and his Demons). It just determines whether the being can _actually_ ever win. There could be a whole campaign on that. Suddenly, I have an idea... :) Certainly this is a matter for the GM to decide in his campaign.) > Scott "Q" Meyer > Scott.E.Meyer@wheaton.edu > http://johnh.wheaton.edu/~smeyer Jared Buntain chandley@nwu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 12:05:21 -0500 From: Hatcher Rhanyr Subject: IN>Magick (WARNING LOTS OF OPINONS and LONG) I know this thread has come up before but somehow I just can't let it die. As far as I'm concerned Songs are "not" magick...Songs are powers which I feel due to the nature of the game that only Celestials can perform. (example: Trying listening to John Tesh singing and you know that some people just don't have the ability) IMHO, I think Songs should be exclusive to Celestials....So doesn't that leave us puddly lil humans high and dry? Nope...here's my theory. In the beginning there was the Symphony. The Symphony was shaped in such a way as to create all things. However God was not the only entity granted this power. Ever wonder why humans rank higher than Archangels if most of us are just mundane? It's because of this singular ability to alter (For the Better or Worse) the Symphony. Even Angels don't have that ability because their actions sometimes causes disturbance in the Symphony. Now just because humans have the ability does not mean that we can use it properly. (i.e. aforementioned John Tesh remark) Only those humans who have 6 forces or more can use magick and even then they need to be trained. Just like Angelic Abilities, Magick is powered by Essence, so things don't get too out of control. Now as for the Theological aspects of magick....magick itself is not inherently evil or good (It is neutral). The how magick is used determines it's "aura". Now I know there are some people out there who feel that the Bible says practicing magick is evil. But does anyone remember the Story of Jesus in the manger....correct me if I am wrong but it was three magi who appeared giving gifts of gold, francenscence and muir. Now if these people were evil would they be privy to knowing were Jesus was born at? A Few Minor Notes: - -Enochian Magick (A Hermetic Tradition) uses angelic summoning as a method of practice. As a practitioner of this "art" I doubt that these beings would like being talked to be "evil" magius (by the way...sorcery is a black magick and there is a distinction between Hermetic Magick and Sorcery) Just a few thoughts....if I sound like I'm a raving psychotic then Im coming close to my true nature. :) Hatcher Rhanyr "The Angel of Raving Psychotics" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 10:54:18 -0600 (CST) From: Corey Subject: Re: IN> Fundamentalist Manipulation On Thu, 20 Mar 1997, Gregory Littmann wrote: > > > On Wed, 19 Mar 1997, Bodhi wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > When one firmly believes that one is doing the Lord's work, one can > > do unspeakable things. > > I couldn't agree more. I would go further and say that most of the > greatest evils in the world have been perpotrated by those who believed > they were doing right. No-one ever takes mere selfish gain as seriously > as an idealist may take their cause. You could do a *great* In Nomine > campaign without the demons in fact. You could even do a great In Nomine > campaign where demons are now and have always been a myth - or at least, a > matter of perspectives as Angels with different viewpoints battle it out. > > Who willingly performs an evil act. This is the major problem with most of the fantasy rpg's their are major races which are evil. How do you have a continuous society when all of the members are looking out only for themsleves. The issue is at least dealt with in IN, and there is a great quote "The road to HEaven is paved with good intentions", but Ihave no clue who said it. I heard the tongues of angels, And the tongues of men. Wasn't any differences to me. Bob Dylan "Dignity" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 12:08:35 -0500 From: "Kirt A. Dankmyer -- aka Loki" Subject: Re: IN> Angelic Font >I know I am probably going to regret this (from the massive requests) >but I have a font that is the Angelic Language acording to the >Dictionary of Angels (i.e. a derivation of Hebrew). This isn't the font >used in the document Angelica Lingua..... Is this Enochian, perchance? (I don't have the Disctionary of Angels, so I duno.) If so, I have a Winsdows TrueType version of the Enocian font that I could put up on my Web page if people were terribly interested. If not, consider this your first massive request. ;) You might save yourself a lot of headache if you can put it up on ftp or on a Web page. -Loki - -- Kirt A. Dankmyer --- Academic Computing Specialist http://www.wfu.edu/~dankmyka/ -- (910) 759-4202 -- PGP public key available. For the Snark _was_ a Boojum, you see. --Lewis Carroll ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 11:05:03 -0600 (CST) From: Corey Subject: Re: IN> Yet another inspiration thought!!!! Malakim playing Magic, surely you jest, That game generates more discension among people than anyother I know, except maybe Monopoly. Oh well to each their own. I heard the tongues of angels And the tongues of men Wasn't any differences to me Bob Dylan "Dignity" On Thu, 20 Mar 1997, Kirt A. Dankmyer -- aka Loki wrote: > > But the real question must be, what RPGs do the different Choirs and > >Bands play. Ofanim *must* play GURPS - Ofanim are so *flexible*. ;) > > Yeah, but it's not _fast_ enough. I would think Ofanim would play > off-the-cuff homebrews, personally. If a published game system, Over the Edge. > > Seraphim would play In Nomine -- there are too many lies in other games. ;) > > Cherubim would play Castle Falkenstein. "I've sworn to protect the Queen, > and having given my word of honour, I will do so unto death." > > Elohim would play GURPS. "Such an interesting design. Simple, yet intricate." > > Malakim don't play RPGs, but they do play Magic: The Gathering. > > Kyriotates would each have a completely different preference that depended > on their personal perspective... > > Mercurians would play Amber. Nuff said. > -Loki > > > -- > Kirt "Loki" Dankmyer PGP key avail. My opinions are my own. > love * Eris * RPGs * Anime * Magick * Carroll * techno * hats * cats * Dada > I waked, she fled, and day brought back my night. --Milton > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 18:51:04 +0000 (GMT) From: "Andy Ransom,,," Subject: Re: IN> Gen Con (was Safe Houses) Hi, Shadowcat wrote: > 1) How many folks are planning to be at Gen-Con this year? All being well I'm expecting to make it over. It's very unlikely I'll run any In Nomine, but I'd love to play a game or two. Andy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 13:23:01 -0500 From: "Kirt A. Dankmyer -- aka Loki" Subject: IN> Yet another inspiration thought!!!! >Malakim playing Magic, surely you jest, That game generates more >discension among people than anyother I know, except maybe Monopoly. Oh >well to each their own. My implication was, in fact, that the game is very combative. However, maybe Malakim are more the old-style wargamer type -- Tactics II, anyone? -Loki - -- Kirt A. Dankmyer --- Academic Computing Specialist http://www.wfu.edu/~dankmyka/ -- (910) 759-4202 -- PGP public key available. For the Snark _was_ a Boojum, you see. --Lewis Carroll ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 14:01:13 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Fundamentalist Manipulation "Who willingly performs an evil act. This is the major problem with most of the fantasy rpg's their are major races which are evil. How do you have a continuous society when all of the members are looking out only for themsleves." Very true. St. Augustine addressed this issue and concluded that evils is disordered good. People do evil when they pursue a good at the expense of a greater good. So, for instance, property is a good, and there's nothing wrong with acquiring things, UNLESS you do so by sacrificing a greater good, like honesty, which is the good that gets sacrificed when people cheat or steal. Presumably, the demons of IN are pursuing power (a very basic good) at any price -- power mainly for themselves, but often for hell in general as a means of increasing their own power. In "A Preface to Paradise Lost," C. S. Lewis discusses the motivations of the devils in Milton's "Paradise Lost," in the chapter entitled "Satan's Followers." Lewis also wrote "The Screwtape Letters," darkly funny letters from a senior demon to his nephew on temptation duty on Earth. They are in the IN bibliography. Screwtape also discusses demonic motivation. "...there is a great quote "The road to HEaven is paved with good intentions", but Ihave no clue who said it" Actually, it's the road to *hell* that's paved with good intentions. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 14:06:38 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Why Lucifer is a Balseraph... At 10:23 PM -0600 3/19/97, Thany wrote: >On Wed, 19 Mar 1997, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >> and/or why Seraphim and Balseraphs play violins -- I was thinking >> of this song, and what do you know, it *started*! > >Started? Started on the radio? Yep. It'd been humming in my mind for a while, and I just flipped to a "70's Greatest Hits" station... And *poof*! >> "The Devil went down to Georgia, he was looking for a soul to steal >> 'Cause he was way behind and was ready to make a deal." >> "The Devil bowed his head because he knew that he'd been beat, >> and he laid that golden fiddle on the ground at Johnny's feet." > >"The Devil Went Down to Georgia" or "Devil in the House of the Rising >Sun" (I forget which), by Charlie Daniels. One of the few country songs I >really like. Ditto! (I've been told it's "down to Georgia".) >> (I must acquire this song on tape sometime. I wish I'd been listening >> close enough to know if they even gave the name... *sigh* Anybody >> know enough of the details for me to pick up an old song on tape >> somewhere?) > >I'd have to dig around a tad, but I know I have it on tape somewhere. >Copying it would be the bigger problem... I can probably find it now -- got various titles, even, which should have it... At 7:57 AM -0600 3/20/97, Donald G Bixler wrote: > > "The Devil Went Down to Georgia", by the Charlie Daniels Band >You should be able to find it on any of his "Greatest Hits" tapes. >There was also a sequal I ran across a few years back, about the same >time as there was a rap re-mix of the original on MTV... RAP??? IG! >Oops da Ogre, the Muppets did a version on "The Muppet Show", too .... I'd forgotten that. I must go find it... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 14:17:13 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Yet another inspiration thought!!!! At 11:18 PM -0500 3/19/97, Gregory Littmann wrote: >On Wed, 19 Mar 1997, Russ Collins wrote: >>On Wed, 19 Mar 1997, Hatcher Rhanyr wrote: >>> OOOOH This is a cool idea!!!!! >>> Angel of Role-Playing Games--Servator of Eli working for Foucault now?? >>> I'll work on this one...some ideas might be helpful. >>> >>Urm---don't you meant the Demon of RPGs? 8-) >> > But the real question must be, what RPGs do the different Choirs and >Bands play. Ofanim *must* play GURPS - Ofanim are so *flexible*. ;) Is this like the Real Men, Real Roleplayers, Loonies and Munchkins thread, only from the other side of the character sheets? Real Celestials play In Nomine, of course.... ;-) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 12:14:24 -0800 From: Cara Cohon & Kevin Randolph Subject: Re: IN> New Angel (long) Raven wrote: > > On Wed, 19 Mar 1997, Marco Lambert wrote: > > > DISCLAIMER: I by no way see any of the inquisitory actions as good. > > They were crimes against people with a different believe. > > But in IN there is a holy war going on and maybe that justifies > > even some torture. > > > > Okay... I'm really trying no flame on this topic, but it will be > difficult, so forgive me if I sounds more than a little acidic. My > intention is not to insult, but to educate. > > IMHO, there is NO WAY that the Inquisition could have been sponsored in > it's height by the angels. If anything celestial infervened, it was the > demons who warped it into something cruel and evil, although it wasn't > terribly pure to begin with... > > The Holy Office of Inquisition was formed by the papacy for one purpose: > To root out heresy, which is defined as holding religious beliefs that > differed from church doctrine. It was never designed to root out evil or > corruption (it would've turned on the papacy to quickly if it did that), > but to stamp out unpopular opinions. This concept will sounds eerily > familiar to anyone who's read 1984. > > That's what is was meant for. What it was /actually/ going for was much > simpler: Money. 'Inquiring' was a lucrative business, especially since > all the property of anyone convicted of heresy were siezed by the Holy > Office. As such, they tended to target well-off people and groups, > especially heretical religious orders such as the Albigensians and the > Knights Templar. > > So, the inquisition was designed to remove threats to the papacy's power, > and was used by its members to increase their own personal power. At no > point was it a virtuous organization. I could /maybe/, MAYBE see Dom > supporting it in its early days, trying to aim its development towards > rooting out actual evil as opposed to just unpopular opinions, but it was > quickly ripped out of his grasp by either Asmodeus or Mammon (prince of > greed, to be included in a supplement I think), or possibly a joint > venture by both (either planned, or their motives just happened to > coincide). I could see a /demon/ of the inquisition, probably a Balseraph > of either of the above princes. ...Perhaps Dominic only had two eyes back then, and didn't have to wear a cloak. Perhaps he suffers discord as some demons do. Perhaps the other Archangels have a weakness NO ONE talks about, the possibility that ANOTHER of the most powerful of Gods children has been corrupted. Perhaps if some rabble rousing young Angels checked into things and removed Dominics hood (in view of all), it might be seen that he/she is also the Archangel of hypocrisy. Perhaps..... T.T.F.N., Valdrax and Carebear ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 15:10:28 -0500 From: Steve Mann Subject: Re: IN> Why Lucifer is a Balseraph... > >Oops da Ogre, the Muppets did a version on "The Muppet Show", too Really? Who did the Devil's part? Gonzo? Steve Mann ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 14:14:25 -0600 (CST) From: Corey Subject: Re: IN> Fundamentalist Manipulation > "...there is a great quote "The road to HEaven is paved with good > intentions", but Ihave no clue who said it" > > Actually, it's the road to *hell* that's paved with good intentions. > thanks, I just finished a midterm before writing this ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 15:36:14 -0500 (EST) From: Gregory Littmann Subject: Re: IN> Fundamentalist Manipulation On Thu, 20 Mar 1997, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > > "Who willingly performs an evil act. This is the major problem > with most of the fantasy rpg's their are major races which are evil. > How do you have a continuous society when all of the members are > looking out only for themsleves." > > Very true. St. Augustine addressed this issue and concluded that > evils is disordered good. People do evil when they pursue a good > at the expense of a greater good. This was not new when St. Augustine said it. Socrates is recorded as having said the same. Evil, he held, was an error in measurement. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 16:14:24 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Fundamentalist Manipulation At 3:36 PM -0500 3/20/97, Gregory Littmann wrote: >On Thu, 20 Mar 1997, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > >> Very true. St. Augustine addressed this issue and concluded that >> evils is disordered good. People do evil when they pursue a good >> at the expense of a greater good. > > This was not new when St. Augustine said it. Socrates is recorded as >having said the same. Evil, he held, was an error in measurement. How... Focaultian. (Did I get it spelled right? Or should I just stick with "whatshisname"?) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 16:13:49 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> road to hell (from Fundamentalist Manipulation) ...and according to "Good Omens," byu Neil Gaiman and Terry Pratchett, the road to hell is actually paved with frozen insurance salesmen, and young demons sometimes go skating on it, on quiet afternoons. Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 13:35:46 -0500 From: Turhan Herder Subject: Re: IN> New Angel (long) > > ...Perhaps Dominic only had two eyes back then, and didn't have to wear > a cloak. Perhaps he suffers discord as some demons do. Perhaps the > other Archangels have a weakness NO ONE talks about, the possibility > that ANOTHER of the most powerful of Gods children has been corrupted. > Perhaps if some rabble rousing young Angels checked into things and > removed Dominics hood (in view of all), it might be seen that he/she is > also the Archangel of hypocrisy. Perhaps..... > > T.T.F.N., Valdrax and Carebear This is something that has really been bothering me. Why does everyone look at Dominic as such a bad guy? He has an important job to do, maintaining order in Heaven. He IS the Archangel of judgment, after all. Sure, there are the lovey-dovey angels but Dominic seems like an Old Testament type. IMO, just because he works with Asmodeus doesn't mean they were past lovers or that Dominic has heavy Discord. I think of it is a purely business relationship, a necessary evil. I remember reading that two angels guard the gates to Hell. Are they hypocritical because they're not killing all the demons around them while sitting in the middle of Hell? I really like Dominic, he's one of my favorite Archangels. Just because he's hard doesn't mean he's secretly harboring a master plan. There can only be so many Novalis's and Elis before someone on the other end of the spectrum is needed to balance things out. I don't think of him as the Ultimate Hypocrite, at least in my games. I think Dom has multiple eyes because he is a Seraph. I think he wears the cloak to look cool :). Discord that heavy would be visible to others, especially in Heaven when everyone is in celestial form. I'm sorry if I sound a little harsh, but I guess I'm a game "purist" and I wanted to stick up for Dom a little bit. - -- "Because Nietzche's too butch and Kafka reminds me of your friend over there." -Fox, Disney's Gargoyles ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 16:52:19 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Fundamentalist Manipulation >This was not new when St. Augustine said it. Socrates is recorded as >having said the same. Evil, he held, was an error in measurement. Interesting. I believe Augustine was familiar with Plato, so there could well be a connection. However, I not that Socrates, like many other intellectuals, regards evil as a deficiency of enlightenment or understanding. Augustine, intellectual though he was, regarded evil as a disorder of love. An evil being might well *know* it was sacrificing a greater good to a lesser; it just wouldn't *care*, having a personal preference for the lesser, in Augustine's view. Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 17:03:11 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> New Angel (long) At 1:35 PM -0500 3/20/97, Turhan Herder wrote: >> >> ...Perhaps Dominic only had two eyes back then, and didn't have to wear >> a cloak. Perhaps he suffers discord as some demons do.[...] >> Perhaps if some rabble rousing young Angels checked into things and >> removed Dominics hood (in view of all), it might be seen that he/she is >> also the Archangel of hypocrisy. Perhaps..... >> >> T.T.F.N., Valdrax and Carebear > > This is something that has really been bothering me. Why does everyone >look at Dominic as such a bad guy? He has an important job to do, >maintaining order in Heaven. He IS the Archangel of judgment, after >all. [...] > I think Dom has multiple eyes because he is a Seraph. I think he wears >the cloak to look cool :). Discord that heavy would be visible to >others, especially in Heaven when everyone is in celestial form. I'm >sorry if I sound a little harsh, but I guess I'm a game "purist" and I >wanted to stick up for Dom a little bit. Seraphim have multiple eyes, the better to see the Truth. And, while few if any of my characters will ever think of Dominic favorably, keeping in mind that he can be more than just cardboard secret police has the chance to add depth... Sometimes, he'll do something unexpected, if he's more than just "the hyena of Heaven" -- maybe even something to PC benefit. Judgement, strict, Order, potential for stagnation, defense against chaos. Doesn't *necessarily* equal "evil." Probably does equal "a real pain to deal with," though... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 16:03:21 -0600 (CST) From: Brian Emord Subject: Re: IN> New Angel (long) > I think Dom has multiple eyes because he is a Seraph. I think he wears > the cloak to look cool :). Discord that heavy would be visible to > others, especially in Heaven when everyone is in celestial form. I'm > sorry if I sound a little harsh, but I guess I'm a game "purist" and I > wanted to stick up for Dom a little bit. > I would like to give you a pat on the back, even though I favor the diabolical side of things, it is nice to see someone who is willing to stand up for the hard ass now and again... He does hang like the cloud of doom over everyone in heaven (in a matter of speaking) but only inasmuch as he is there to insure heaven's purity and goodness... I would like to make a humble bow for this commentary.. <-BOW-> Brian Emord Impudite of Nybbas Whose word is Ingratiating Car Salesmen - --* BEGIN GEEKCODE BLOCK *-- GCS/E d(+)>++ s+:+ a? C+++(++++)$ UBLAHS++$ P+++$ L++ E W++ N o K++ w O++ M-->--- V-- PS(++) PE(+)(-) Y+ PGP- t+@ 5+@ X R+(+++)* tv b++>+++ DI+++$ D G++ e(*)>++++ h+(*) r++>+++ y+ - --* END GEEKCODE BLOCK *-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 16:16:01 -0600 (CST) From: Thany Subject: Re: IN> Yet another inspiration thought!!!! On Thu, 20 Mar 1997, Kirt A. Dankmyer -- aka Loki wrote: > My implication was, in fact, that the game is very combative. However, > maybe Malakim are more the old-style wargamer type -- Tactics II, anyone? Diplomacy seems well-suited for them. - -- "I know I am. At least...I think I must be." - The Moody Blues, _In the Beginning Disclaimer: I babble. A lot. If you don't understand something I said, don't worry, I probably don't, either. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 16:26:58 -0600 (CST) From: Thany Subject: Re: IN> Why Lucifer is a Balseraph... On Thu, 20 Mar 1997, Steve Mann wrote: > > >Oops da Ogre, the Muppets did a version on "The Muppet Show", too > Really? Who did the Devil's part? Gonzo? It was all minor Muppets, most of them from the jug band they had on occasionally. (Gonzo as the Devil? Who'd be Johnny, then, the Swedish Chef? "I tolda yoo wunce, yoo soon-uv-a-goon, I'm the best dere's eever beeen! Bork Bork Bork!") - -- "I know I am. At least...I think I must be." - The Moody Blues, _In the Beginning Disclaimer: I babble. A lot. If you don't understand something I said, don't worry, I probably don't, either. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 16:30:50 -0600 (CST) From: "The Incredibly Unremarkable Cliffy Q. Scrimshaw" Subject: IN> angel(s) of death... I thought Azreal was posted as Angel of Vengeance, and Charon as Angel of Death. I don't think we need one to replace the other... these are very different Words. any comments on my suggestion for handling Arts/Music? they were something like: there is an Archangel of Arts , and Music, Sculpture, Drawing(includes Painting and Sketching as minions), Writing, and Dance are high-level servants. This seems more like the hierarchy I've seen so far, and includes most of what needs to be there. matt, who HOPES the darn distributor gets IN to the local store soon... "Life is like a yo-yo: .-. it has its ups and downs, __ __| | plus a few loops now & then." \ V / (() --Matt, a.k.a. CliffyQS@Earthling.net |_| ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 14:55:23 -0500 From: Turhan Herder Subject: IN> Dominic thoughts... > > This is something that has really been bothering me. Why does everyone > >look at Dominic as such a bad guy? He has an important job to do, > >maintaining order in Heaven. He IS the Archangel of judgment, after > >all. [...] > > I think Dom has multiple eyes because he is a Seraph. I think he wears > >the cloak to look cool :). Discord that heavy would be visible to > >others, especially in Heaven when everyone is in celestial form. I'm > >sorry if I sound a little harsh, but I guess I'm a game "purist" and I > >wanted to stick up for Dom a little bit. > > Seraphim have multiple eyes, the better to see the Truth. And, > while few if any of my characters will ever think of Dominic favorably, > keeping in mind that he can be more than just cardboard secret police > has the chance to add depth... Sometimes, he'll do something unexpected, > if he's more than just "the hyena of Heaven" -- maybe even something > to PC benefit. > > Judgement, strict, Order, potential for stagnation, defense against chaos. > Doesn't *necessarily* equal "evil." Probably does equal "a real pain > to deal with," though... > That's why I like Dom. I think it's more interesting if he's hard, but on God's side instead of the "hypocrite inquisitor" approach that seems almost stereotypical. I think it's easy to say "Dom's a zealous keeper of Order, so he must have an ulterior motive" because that's how characters like that are usually portrayed. I think it makes him have a lot more depth if he really was doing it for the sake of God and his Word. - -- "Because Nietzche's too butch and Kafka reminds me of your friend over there." -Fox, Disney's Gargoyles ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #83 ****************************** The material here is (C) 1996 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.