From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Fri Mar 21 06:29:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by deliverator.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA12552; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 06:29:29 -0600 (CST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA14190 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 06:32:53 -0600 Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 06:32:53 -0600 Message-Id: <199703211232.GAA14190@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #84 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Friday, March 21 1997 Volume 01 : Number 084 In this digest: IN> Re: Fundamentalists Re: IN> angel(s) of death... IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #83 Re: IN> road to hell (from Fundamentalist Manipulation) Re: IN> Re: Magic Re: IN>Magick (WARNING LOTS OF OPINONS and LONG) Re: IN> Re: Magic Re: IN> Re: Magic Re: IN> Why Lucifer is a Balseraph... Re: IN> Why Lucifer is a Balseraph... Re: IN> Angelic Font Re: IN> Evil Angel ? Re: IN> FAQ - 3/20 Re: IN> New Angel (long) Re: IN> Re: Magic Re: IN> Yet another inspiration thought!!!! Re: IN> Evil Angel ? Re: IN> Yet another inspiration thought!!!! Re: IN>Magick IN> Angelic Font IN> New/Old Demonprince (long) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 15:00:14 -0500 From: Turhan Herder Subject: IN> Re: Fundamentalists I noticed the thread on Fundamentalists while looking through the list messages. What if they are not always wrong in IN? I mean, many Fundamentalists don't like the media because it's "satanic" but in IN who controls media? Isn't Andrealphus working to create further feelings of lust in the people by working with Nybbas? Look at MTV, Melrose Place and all the similar types of programs. Fundamentalists can be very wrong but it's easy to write them off as "under Diabolical influence". I think many players would automatically assume Fundamentalists were under the thumb of Hell and it would surprise them to find out that this isn't always true... - -- "Because Nietzche's too butch and Kafka reminds me of your friend over there." -Fox, Disney's Gargoyles ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 13:29:01 GMT+10 From: "Leathal Weapon" <938269@wrpc.riv.csu.edu.au> Subject: Re: IN> angel(s) of death... > I thought Azreal was posted as Angel of Vengeance, and Charon as Angel of > Death. I don't think we need one to replace the other... these are very > different Words. In 'myth', Azrael was known either as the Angel of Death or the Angel of Vengeance. When I got around to creating my Archangel of Death, I searched for a name. Seeing that Azrael was already taken (and trying to fit into the feel of IN), I chose Charon. Then someone (I forget who, sorry), said that they preferred if the AA of Death was Azrael, and Charon wasn't the second AA of Death. So I then explained some of my logic by assuming that Azrael as vengeance doesn't exist in my game, and detailing how I pictured Azrael splitting his forces when Lucifer rebelled to create Charon annd Saminga. Now I'm perfectly happy to allow Charon, Azrael and any other AA in my game (I think Charon and the Vengeance Azrael can both easily fit into a game). So that's the only reason that there exists any confusion. Does that make any sense (yeah, it's about as clear as mud). > > any comments on my suggestion for handling Arts/Music? > they were something like: See my postings over the last couple of days for Melody annd Thrash, my versions of Music. Just a thought... Leathal Weapon. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 20:02:16 -0500 From: Jason Griffey Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #83 Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 16:52:19 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Fundamentalist Manipulation >>This was not new when St. Augustine said it. Socrates is recorded as >>having said the same. Evil, he held, was an error in measurement. >Interesting. I believe Augustine was familiar with Plato, so there >could well be a connection. Familiar? That's basically all Augustine _is_...a Christian Plato. Aquinas came along and had to deal with Aristotle, and thus incorperated much of Aristotle's thought into Christianity....but both thinkers are almost straight out of the Greeks at base. But then again, Decartes just stole the Cogito from Augustine...no honor among intellectual thieves as well, evidently...:-) >However, I not that Socrates, like many other intellectuals, regards >evil as a deficiency of enlightenment or understanding. Augustine, >intellectual though he was, regarded evil as a disorder of love. >An evil being might well *know* it was sacrificing a greater good >to a lesser; it just wouldn't *care*, having a personal preference >for the lesser, in Augustine's view. I agree completely with this...but since Augustine connected God with perfect love, in a sense one could see his view as simply another type of lack of enlightenment (read: lack of connection with God, since God is the font of both love and knowledge). This philosophy sidebar was brought to you by the number 6 and letter V. Jason, whose word is philosophical ramblings... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 13:45:23 GMT+10 From: "Leathal Weapon" <938269@wrpc.riv.csu.edu.au> Subject: Re: IN> road to hell (from Fundamentalist Manipulation) > ...and according to "Good Omens," byu Neil Gaiman and Terry Pratchett, > the road to hell is actually paved with frozen insurance salesmen, > and young demons sometimes go skating on it, on quiet afternoons. > > Earl Wajenberg On that note, what Choir/ Band would anyone say Aziraphael and Crowley belonged to? IMO Aziraphael would probably be a Seraphim (can't lie and isn't really up to date on humans. Always seems to be about 50 years behind them in most things). Crowley I would almost say Impudite, but he's not very charming.... Leath. Just a thought... Leathal Weapon. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 19:58:10 -0600 (CST) From: "Q (not from Star Trek)" Subject: Re: IN> Re: Magic On Thu, 20 Mar 1997, Jared P. Buntain wrote: > On the list Q wrote: > > First post, though not new to the list. > Deactivate the Lurking device. > > > What, exactly is their motivation? There are three possibilities. They > > could be either good, neutral, or evil. > > Here I begin to grumble with your reasoning. This is a shallow > description of possible motivations, even assuming that 'Gods and > Goddesses' have motivations according to human standards. Which I will, > cause Im human, and cant comment on more divine motivations. Ok, it's taken me a while to psych myself up for this, steel myself against the flames i'm sure to call down upon myself, but here goes. Whatever remnants of the Old Gods(tm) are still in existence, they exist entirely in the Etherial Realm. The Etherial is a realm of thought, imagination, where the human mind runs wild, free to conjure up whatever it desires. In fact, it is my understanding that the Etherial Realm is composed entirely of human thought. If humans can't think it, imagine it, or dream it, it can't exist. Therefore, I must assume that the Old Gods(tm) must be confined to that existence, and for that reason, must conform to human ideals of right and wrong, good and evil. They have no more divine motivations than you or I. > > A good deity should have no problem sitting back and letting God do the > > work since they are on the same side. > > Or, they might disagree vilontly with His (and His angels) methods. > Or His policy of not revealing Himself. There can be jealousy over the fact > that Heaven and Hell are getting all the souls. And all the power. Stating > that the lust for power is evil might not apply to diety level beings. After > all, God seems to have waged a war for power with the other dietys. And > there are many different definitions of "good". That may be so, but in the world of In Nomine, God is Good incarnate. His angels may bicker back and forth as much as they want, but God, as it were, is incapable of evil. His plan must bring forth good, and any who oppose it must, therefore, be evil. As i stated before, a _good_ deity would have no problem with God maintaining control. > > > A neutral deity should be interested only in maintaining a balance, which > > is the current situation, so they should have no reason to want to return > > to power. > > This is more a hold over from AD&D than a valid motivation for a > diety. Its easier to define nuetrality in terms of different views on good. > Balance dieties seem to ask for understanding of _all_ things, even those > that are considered "evil" by others. And then the ability to support all > things according to some master plan (the "balance"). > What is God doing? He is supporting only those things that work with > His master plan. The Diety of Balance here just has a broader definition of > what works. A difference in style. A good argument, except that God is not interested in maintaining a balance. God is not neutral, God is good. He is only interested in conquering evil in the name of good. A neutral deity might well oppose Him mentally, even verbally, but would be unable to oppose him actively since such action would make the deity no longer neutral, but evil. > For a diety, differences in style are absolutes. You dont compromise > on those things, or you wouldnt be distinct entity capable of being > worshiped. If your power and exsistance depend on that, your going to be > very intractable about appearing to be like some other diety. > > > An evil deity would want to overthrow God and take over. In this case, > > the perfect person to go to would be Lucifer, since they have the exact > > same goals. > > Hehehe. But a truly evil diety isnt going to want to share the power > with some upstart creation of another diety. No, the fight would be just as > bitter against the "newbie" as against the Big Guy who kicked your butt all > those years ago. hmmmm....strange bedfellows and all that. Think of Haagenti, and Nybbas. > Another motivation is absolute destruction. An evil diety might > simply have a plan for the symphony so radically different, the world might > as well be destroyed and recreated. From _our_ point of view, this is evil. > And thats valid. But to say that a being with this motivation simply wants > to _overthrow_ God is not covering it all. And Lucifer probably has _no_ > interest in joining with such a being, especially in the long run, as that > would mean his destruction as well. why wouldn't Lucifer be interested in duping this guy? Just tell the guy "sure, we could use your help in the war, just take all your mighty forces up to the front lines and fight our battles for us" and when he's done, softened up by the forces of good, slit his throat and drop him like a bad habit. Besides, if this guy lives in exile in the Marches, he can't be that powerful. We're not talking about an invincible alien force here, but the finite conjuration of human imagination. anyway, that's my take. - -Q > > > Scott "Q" Meyer > > Scott.E.Meyer@wheaton.edu > > http://johnh.wheaton.edu/~smeyer > > Jared Buntain > chandley@nwu.edu > - --------------------------------------- "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." -Albert Einstein Scott "Q" Meyer Scott.E.Meyer@wheaton.edu http://johnh.wheaton.edu/~smeyer ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 20:04:15 -0600 (CST) From: "Q (not from Star Trek)" Subject: Re: IN>Magick (WARNING LOTS OF OPINONS and LONG) On Thu, 20 Mar 1997, Hatcher Rhanyr wrote: > I know this thread has come up before but somehow I just can't let it > die. As far as I'm concerned Songs are "not" magick...Songs are powers > which I feel due to the nature of the game that only Celestials can > perform. Slight correction: Songs are not magick, Magick is simply a human construct to explain the action of Songs. > > A Few Minor Notes: > -Enochian Magick (A Hermetic Tradition) uses angelic summoning as a > method of practice. As a practitioner of this "art" I doubt that these > beings would like being talked to be "evil" magius (by the way...sorcery > is a black magick and there is a distinction between Hermetic Magick and > Sorcery) > Hate to tell you this, (note: this may or may not be my personal opinion about the certain religions, and is by no means a statement about you, personally), but have you considered the possibility that the summoned "angel" is simply a demon in disguise? Satan disguises himself as an angel of light and all that.... I think it would fit in well in the IN world. Balseraph: "Sure, I'm an angel. What can I do you for?" - -Q > Just a few thoughts....if I sound like I'm a raving psychotic then Im > coming close to my true nature. :) > > Hatcher Rhanyr > "The Angel of Raving Psychotics" > - --------------------------------------- "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." -Albert Einstein Scott "Q" Meyer Scott.E.Meyer@wheaton.edu http://johnh.wheaton.edu/~smeyer ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 20:49:43 -0600 (CST) From: Scott Johnson Subject: Re: IN> Re: Magic On Thu, 20 Mar 1997, Q (not from Star Trek) wrote: > Therefore, I must assume that the Old > Gods(tm) must be confined to that existence, and for that reason, must > conform to human ideals of right and wrong, good and evil. They have no > more divine motivations than you or I. Human ideals, perhaps. But Judeo-Christian-Islamic ideals, almost certainly not by definition. Christianity, for instance, has labeled a lot of what older gods did evil simply because older gods did them. I'd hazard a guess that even the most benevolent of the pagan European gods would probably think poorly of Christianity and its God for a number of reasons, including 1) a lot of their followers were put to the sword, forcibly converted, or simply lured away by Christianity, 2) a lot of the gods of their pantheon and their servants were put to the sword by Uriel and his servants (would *you* want to team up with the organization that killed your mother, your brother, and your family dog?) and 3) Christians frequently villified them as 'false, evil pagan idols' and the like. I think that even the deities most prone to forgiving and forgetting might get a little bitter after all of this. However, a lot of the more benevolent gods would be as disgusted by the demons as angels are. I can definitely see some gods and pantheons associating with individual Princes on an individual basis (Loki and Kobal, for instance, would probably get along just fine), but these would often be the darker or more warlike gods. The rest owe a grudging debt of honor to Beleth for sheltering them from Uriel's wrath, but they would just as soon get rid of *both* sides of the war and step back to take their rightful positions again. After all, with Heaven promoting its own misguided (from the banished pantheons' points of view) sense of morality, and Hell being a thoroughly nasty place, neither of them is doing much good for Earth. Wouldn't the humans be better off without either of them, and with the Aesir and the Vanir (or the Tuatha de Dannan, or the kami, etc, etc) back in their proper place? > That may be so, but in the world of In Nomine, God is Good incarnate. His > angels may bicker back and forth as much as they want, but God, as it > were, is incapable of evil. His plan must bring forth good, and any who > oppose it must, therefore, be evil. As i stated before, a _good_ deity > would have no problem with God maintaining control. A 'good' deity, of course, being defined as one whose morals match God's in every respect, and who has no problems with being subservient to a pantheon of foreigners who already tried to kill them once. The way I see it, in the world of In Nomine, Good and Evil aren't natural grand celestial forces, but rather moral codes *backed* by great celestial powers, namely Heaven and Hell, respectively. If we posit that the non-JCI deities exist, and had sway over great segments of the Earth's population for a considerable portion of history, then I find it likely that their concepts of Good and Evil were at least as valid in their zones of control during their times of power. (And, incidentally, some of these pantheons are *still* pretty powerful in their parts of the world, in some ways. Although we can debate just what religions fall under Heaven's sway (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam all qualify, for instance, and references to bodhisattvas in the text imply that Buddhism does too), some religions are rather likely not to - for instance, Shinto is is extremely polytheistic, verging on pantheistic, a far cry from monotheism, or even one God with a lot of powerful servants, and yet it is still one of the two predominant religions in Japan today (the other being Buddhism, with most people believing elements of both; Christianity is a very distant third). I'm actually thinking of sending in suggestions for the Shinto pantheon as suggestions for _The Marches_ - they're an interesting group with a strong potential for resurgence if they can start influencing their Earthly followers again.) > > What is God doing? He is supporting only those things that work with > > His master plan. The Diety of Balance here just has a broader definition of > > what works. A difference in style. > > A good argument, except that God is not interested in maintaining a > balance. God is not neutral, God is good. He is only interested in > conquering evil in the name of good. A neutral deity might well > oppose Him mentally, even verbally, but would be unable to oppose him > actively since such action would make the deity no longer neutral, but > evil. This is all a rather black and white distinction, isn't it? I mean, it works pretty well for just thinking about the conflict between Heaven and Hell, but when you add in third parties like the pagan gods, things get a whole lot more complex in mye eye. (And to tell the truth, I'm not sure that the big black and white view holds up even from a human's point of view. Angels probably do a lot of things that humans don't like, and demons do things that actually seem to benefit mankind, from mankind's point of view. I've got an example involving moderately recent events concerning the Internet I might just post sometime...) > > Another motivation is absolute destruction. An evil diety might > > simply have a plan for the symphony so radically different, the world might > > as well be destroyed and recreated. From _our_ point of view, this is evil. > > And thats valid. But to say that a being with this motivation simply wants > > to _overthrow_ God is not covering it all. And Lucifer probably has _no_ > > interest in joining with such a being, especially in the long run, as that > > would mean his destruction as well. > > why wouldn't Lucifer be interested in duping this guy? Just tell the guy > "sure, we could use your help in the war, just take all your mighty forces > up to the front lines and fight our battles for us" and when he's done, > softened up by the forces of good, slit his throat and drop him like a bad > habit. Besides, if this guy lives in exile in the Marches, he can't be > that powerful. We're not talking about an invincible alien force here, > but the finite conjuration of human imagination. The only problem is that I can only see this as working on one of that unique breed of gods that can be outwitted by a box of rocks. As a Balseraph, Lucifer might be able to convince the god he was talking to that he was telling the truth, but when that god tells all this to his pantheon, they'd start bludgeoning him with Clue Sticks, realizing that such a proposition means that they're being offered up as canon fodder. (And no, that's not a typo - given the game's dealing with religion and Songs, it seems vaguely appropriate.) They know that at the moment, Hell is vastly more powerful than they are, and if Baal's armies really wanted to do this, they wouldn't need to call on a bunch of gods living only at the sufferance of one of their Princesses. > anyway, that's my take. It's an interesting read, but ultimately I think I dislike it for one simple reason - it sees all of the complex set of alliances and morality possible as boiling down to three options: Good, defined as 'siding with God', Neutral, defined as 'either wanting a balance between Heaven and Hell or not caring about anything', and Evil, defined as 'siding with Lucifer.' There's a lot more options than that in my eyes, including 'I hate both sides, let's try and get them to wipe each other out,' 'Heaven has some good ideas but some really bad ones, too, and the same goes for Hell,' 'Look, one side killed our leader and the other side is just plain scum,' and many, many others. - -- Scott Johnson | zagyg@io.com | This space intentionally left blank. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 21:37:34 -0600 (CST) From: Corey Subject: Re: IN> Re: Magic Hey all, since we're discussing the Pagan gods, what about those that were syncrtised into Christianity, i.e. Brigid to Ste. Brigit, etc. I heard the tongues of angels And the tongues of men Wasn't any differences to me Bob Dylan "Dignity" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 22:20:44 -0600 (CST) From: Donald G Bixler Subject: Re: IN> Why Lucifer is a Balseraph... > Really? Who did the Devil's part? Gonzo? IIRC, it was a Devil puppet. I'm certain that the little demons were just puppets at any rate... > Steve Mann Oops da Ogre, who's had the song stuck in his head all day now... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 23:47:33 -0500 (EST) From: Mark Kinney Subject: Re: IN> Why Lucifer is a Balseraph... On Thu, 20 Mar 1997, Donald G Bixler wrote: > "The Devil Went Down to Georgia", by the Charlie Daniels Band > You should be able to find it on any of his "Greatest Hits" tapes. > There was also a sequal I ran across a few years back, about the same > time as there was a rap re-mix of the original on MTV... > > Oops da Ogre, the Muppets did a version on "The Muppet Show", too In addition, according to the Levellers web site (address unknown just offhand, but you can find it through my own links page) they do a cover of the song on their live CD (which I *really* hope I eventually find, if for no other reason because their violin player is truly wicked--but then, what do you expect, they're Irish. :-) I had heard about the rap version, but never heard it. I'm not going out of my way to, either; I'm even a rap fan and all, but I can't see how this could have been any good. Mark Kinney | alberich@iglou.com | http://www.iglou.com/nations/ "...and they made a very satisfying *thump* when they hit the ground!" -- G'kar, "Babylon 5: A Late Arrival From Avalon" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 21:56:15 -0800 (PST) From: Raven <94fa193@dvc.edu> Subject: Re: IN> Angelic Font On Thu, 20 Mar 1997, Kirt A. Dankmyer -- aka Loki wrote: > >I know I am probably going to regret this (from the massive requests) > >but I have a font that is the Angelic Language acording to the > >Dictionary of Angels (i.e. a derivation of Hebrew). This isn't the font > >used in the document Angelica Lingua..... Consider this your second massive request. :) PLEEEEEZE send me a copy! > Is this Enochian, perchance? (I don't have the Disctionary of Angels, so I > duno.) If so, I have a Winsdows TrueType version of the Enocian font that I > could put up on my Web page if people were terribly interested. Again, even if /people/ aren't really interested, I'D like a copy. I always like new, unusual fonts. They work great for printing up documents for games. A friend of mine take a plane trig class put a bunch of notes into a graphical layout that visually represented how the sines, cosines and tangents worked, and had some shortcuts and precalculated figures for certain common values, yadda yadda yadda... And it was thinking, with roman numerals and greek letters, or maybe with hebrew or enochian latters, it would look SOOOOO slick, like a Hermetic mage's cheat sheet. :) > If not, consider this your first massive request. ;) You might save > yourself a lot of headache if you can put it up on ftp or on a Web page. Or send it to someone /else/ who has a web page... |\ /| | | |~~~ |\ | "It's a hundred and six miles to Chicago, we've |_\ /_| | | |__ | \| got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, |\ | | \ | | | | it's dark, and we're wearing sunglasses." | \ | | \| |___ | | "Hit it." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 22:05:59 -0800 (PST) From: Raven <94fa193@dvc.edu> Subject: Re: IN> Evil Angel ? On Thu, 20 Mar 1997, Marco Lambert wrote: > At first I think for our world you are mostly right. > The inquisition was largely evil. > BUT a lot of the inquisitors thought not only they were > right they also were sure to work for God and the good > side. > (Look also ongoing discussion about fundamentalism) Maybe a /select few/ thought so... But from what I've read, mostly they were in it for the money. And the power trip, of course. They targeted the rich people and well-financed orders, so they could get a cut of the siezed property. After many popes turned them down, they finally convinced one to expand their authority to sorcery (previous popes had said that sorcery could only be used as evidence against a heretic if it was /directly/ related to their heresy; sorcery alone was not enough), they got even worse. Standard gear for an inquisitor was tools specifically designed to falsify evidence that someone was a witch, like the spikes with retractable tips to use on an alleged 'witch's mark', which supposedly didn't bleed normally. The spike retracts, the person feels no pain, and there's no blood. All the proof they need. Not like a /lack/ of proof helped any... If they wanted you, they'd get you. |\ /| | | |~~~ |\ | "It's a hundred and six miles to Chicago, we've |_\ /_| | | |__ | \| got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, |\ | | \ | | | | it's dark, and we're wearing sunglasses." | \ | | \| |___ | | "Hit it." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 22:09:44 -0800 (PST) From: Raven <94fa193@dvc.edu> Subject: Re: IN> FAQ - 3/20 On Thu, 20 Mar 1997, John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: > What is the name of that cool headline typeface? > > SKREETCH CAPS. Okay... Next question: Where do I FIND it? |\ /| | | |~~~ |\ | "It's a hundred and six miles to Chicago, we've |_\ /_| | | |__ | \| got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, |\ | | \ | | | | it's dark, and we're wearing sunglasses." | \ | | \| |___ | | "Hit it." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 22:29:39 -0800 (PST) From: Raven <94fa193@dvc.edu> Subject: Re: IN> New Angel (long) On Thu, 20 Mar 1997, Turhan Herder wrote: > This is something that has really been bothering me. Why does everyone > look at Dominic as such a bad guy? He has an important job to do, > maintaining order in Heaven. He IS the Archangel of judgment, after > all. Sure, there are the lovey-dovey angels but Dominic seems like an > Old Testament type. IMO, just because he works with Asmodeus doesn't I don't think Dom is a bad guy... I just don't wan to work for him, or play a servant of him as a PC. He's just too much of a hard-ass for me. A personal taste thing. Hell, with as little experience I have an an IN GM, I don't want to deal with ANYONE playing a servant of Dom just yet... > "Because Nietzche's too butch and > Kafka reminds me of your friend over there." > -Fox, Disney's Gargoyles "God is dead." - Nietzche "Nietzche is dead." - God |\ /| | | |~~~ |\ | "It's a hundred and six miles to Chicago, we've |_\ /_| | | |__ | \| got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, |\ | | \ | | | | it's dark, and we're wearing sunglasses." | \ | | \| |___ | | "Hit it." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 01:46:01 -0500 From: "Joseph R. Watt" Subject: Re: IN> Re: Magic Q (not from Star Trek) wrote: > That may be so, but in the world of In Nomine, God is Good incarnate. His > angels may bicker back and forth as much as they want, but God, as it > were, is incapable of evil. His plan must bring forth good, and any who > oppose it must, therefore, be evil. As i stated before, a _good_ deity > would have no problem with God maintaining control. Really? I must have missed the chapter on God. God created Michael, that much is explicit. God is somewhere above the Archangels in the Celestial Hierarchy, that is also explicit. God is good? Not entirely clear, in my reading. Making an effort not to read in any external sources, I don't see it. It might say it somewhere in the bible, though. :) Are any of the published works of scripture considered 'official' source material, or 'canon' for IN. :) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 23:45:05 -0800 From: Clinton Wolf Subject: Re: IN> Yet another inspiration thought!!!! > > > My implication was, in fact, that the game is very combative. However, > > maybe Malakim are more the old-style wargamer type -- Tactics II, anyone? > > Diplomacy seems well-suited for them. > Diplomacy is far too subtle for Malakim... and besides, I'm almost sure the game is a Word under the province of Malphas, patron saint of Diplomacy enthusiasts everywhere... ;) - -- Clint ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 02:42:33 -0800 (PST) From: Anders Swenson Subject: Re: IN> Evil Angel ? Angels aren't good or evil. they are servents of a power that is above that sort of petty distinction, in a word they just are, some of them have functoins that are apparently noble, but they are just following orders (they can of course choose to ignore those orders, but that in not a really good idea.) They uphold God's Traditions, they continue to do so, because a) it i their nature to do so, and b)if they don't, if they choose to rebel, they are cursed for their efforts, and so fear keeps in line. The best word I can think of to describe an angel is seelie. The movie (or was that sourcebook on film?) "The Prophecy" describes it well: Did you ever notice how, in the Bible, whenever God needed to punish someone or make an example, or whenever God needed a Killing, he sent an angel? Did you ever wonder what a creature like that must be like? The whole existance spent praising your God, but always with one wing dipped in blood? Would you ever really want to see an angel? Now granted, this mostly applies to the Malikim, but it also applies more generaly to all the rest of the choirs as well.... And remember... Just becaues your Seelie doesn't mean you can't be nice...:) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 03:11:05 -0800 (PST) From: Anders Swenson Subject: Re: IN> Yet another inspiration thought!!!! On Thu, 20 Mar 1997, Clinton Wolf wrote: > > > > > My implication was, in fact, that the game is very combative. However, > > > maybe Malakim are more the old-style wargamer type -- Tactics II, anyone? > > > > Diplomacy seems well-suited for them. > > > Diplomacy is far too subtle for Malakim... and besides, I'm almost > sure the > game is a Word under the province of Malphas, patron saint of > Diplomacy > enthusiasts everywhere... ;) > > -- Clint > The Malikim Play Squad Leader ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 06:42:22 -0500 From: Hatcher Rhanyr Subject: Re: IN>Magick In our last hair raising adventure Q stated: > Hate to tell you this, (note: this may or may not be my personal opinion > about the certain religions, and is by no means a statement about > you, personally), but have you considered the possibility that the > summoned "angel" is simply a demon in disguise? Satan disguises himself > as an angel of light and all that.... > > I think it would fit in well in the IN world. > > Balseraph: "Sure, I'm an angel. What can I do you for?" hmmm Interesting perspective.....as far as it's concerned though sometimes one must depend solely upon faith. For all I know God is the one who's "evil" and who's been trying to make humanity conform to his rigid frame of mind...[This is not to be taken as a challenge to anyone's religeon, this isn't my feeling about god just an analytical statement] Hatcher ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 06:48:58 -0500 From: Hatcher Rhanyr Subject: IN> Angelic Font To clarify this bit of information this is not an Enochian font but rather one that is used in several magickal books and the Dictionary of Angels. Also this isn't the font used in the Lingua Angelica... For those people who were and are interested in this I am going to send it out on Monday, March 24th (United States). So please if you want it, contact me personally before monday. Those people who already requested it needn't request to me personally. Hatcher "The Demon of the Macarena" - --You think Hell is bad...try listening to this on every radio station!!-- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Mar 97 13:29 CET From: Marco Lambert Subject: IN> New/Old Demonprince (long) Hello to all, this time I have tried to convert one of the original demonprinces from the french/german version who is missing in the new IN version. It is Malthus the Demonprince of Diseases. I have tryed to convert as accurate as possible the listed powers and all the other infos, but because the systems are different I have to adjust a little bit. I also had to invent the band attunements. Everything what is just a tranlation/conversion is marked with an *. No copyright violations intended. Everything else is my own work. For me it is okay to put this character on any webpage you like. I do not know what Croc thinks about this abuse of his work. Also I am sory that I cannot translate you the introductive story for Malthus, because it is quite long and a little bit# difficult for a nonnative english writer. But generally it is about a desperate sick man, who gets sicker week by week and is now a regular customer with his doctor. This doctor is a servant of Malthus and he infects the poor fellow every visit with a new, just a little bit more painfull disease. Nice, uhhh. About the rating of diseases. Well I am not a doctor nor have I any closer knowledge about diseases, so it is very likely I discribe some of them wrong in their deadliness or kind of transmitting vectors. So if anybody knows it better PLEASE correct me. After all thank you for reading and feel free to comment my work. bye and tschuess, Marco. MALTHUS, Demonprince of Diseases* „Diseases are the best way to show the human suffering to everyone“ Malphas a Calabim is very busy. In the last 100 years a lot of his standard tools become useless because of the invention of medicin and hygienic. So he tries to develop new plagues and new forms of older disease just to counter the advancement of science. He even thinks that Vapula is playing a dark game with him in this matter, perhaps on behalf of his old archenemy Andre. He is normaly not very well liked by the other rulers of Hell, but they all have to admit that he does his job efficient and well. Atleast until the AIDS-incident, with which he has generated a lot of anger in some other princes. Most of the time he prefers to create apocalyptic fear in the humans by creating just another epedemic plague or on the other hand destroy some prominent people with one of his favorite diseases. He has a sadistic kind of pleasure to see the futile struggle the humans fight to overcome the plagues he creates. Suffering and pain are welcome to him. He also supports a lot of scientist who have no problem to use human guinea-pigs to develope biological agents or just to further pure scientific knowledge. Again a area where Vapula is competitive. Even if most demons think Malthus has seen his best days in the middle ages, he himself smiles on these remarks and is sure to still hold a lot of trumps in his hands. So who knows.....? Dissonance : Servitors of Malthus gain Dissonance by preventing a disease to spread or even by dooing something to counter a infection. Band Attunements : Balseraph : With their resonance they can also inflict a nervous or brain disease (not mental illness) like Alzheimer or Creutzfeld-Jacob (BSE) , which breaks out after Check Digit weeks. Djinn : The person they are attuned looses any resistance against infections (automatic failure on any infection role ; see below). The Djinn gaines no dissonance by this. Calabim : They can destroy the appearance of the victim (and perhaps even the reputation) with their resonance by producing the external signs of diseases. The strength of the repulsion (used like negativ charisma) is given by the CD of the role. 1 for example smallpox scars, 6 perhaps festering and stinking open wounds. The victim did not have necessarely the related disease. Habbalah : No need to role to install Disgust for diseases and the infested people, the total number of forces is added to the CD in this case for time considerations. This works very nice with doctors and nurses or family members of the sick. Lilim : They add the higher of the three forces to any role to geas someone into developping a new disease (biological warfare), spread a disease, hinder the research on a treatment, neglecting quarantine regulations and so on. Shedim : If the possesed being is infected with a disease, that reduces the will of the victim according to the severness of the disease. Also the Shedim does not need to make a will role forceing the possesed to infect others out of carelessness. (sneeze at someone directly, not using a condom...) Impudites : If they use their resonance to gain essence they automaticly transfer one of the so called social diseases to the victim (the ones usualy related to intercourse like syphilis ...). The infection should normaly be non lethal or else they gain dissonance. But they do not gain dissonance for following the regulations of Malthus, that means especially killing throu inaction in case of a disease. Infection Rules : Generally all diseases once invoked work normaly, so they transmit or develop or can be treated like the natural counterpart. There are no differences. The infection mechanism is as following. The victim has to make a STR role with a bonus for treatment or resistancy and a malus for the severness or the hygienic conditions. If the role is good, the CD says how long the victim is still a little bit ill or how long he is still contagious. If the role is failed, the CD says how long he is sick, how much damage he takes or how much time is left untill he dies. (exact values depend heavy on the kind of disease, so perhaps ask better a medic for details) Servitor Attunements: - - Contamination* : Infect 100 kg (per essence used) of food or fluids to become the carrier of a otherwise noncontagious disease (i.e. cancer or just a special form of the other diseases). Infection role malus depends on the quantity of ingested infected material. - -Blessing : Gives own vessel or another servitor touched immunity to all diseases, as long as the Celestial who granted that blessing remains on earth, after that the blessing vanishes. - -The Last Stand : If a servitor of Malthus faces the loss in a conflict he has a last chance to do something evil. By invoking this attunement he dissolves the mater of his vessel and creates the source for a epedemic. The kind of transmitting vector he may choose by selecting one of the three forces. Corporeal forces : infection needs consumption of infected matter or exchange of bodyfluids. Ethereal forces : infection can be transmitted a third party like fleas or rats or by external conntact, even normal water. Celestial forces : infectin can be transmitted by air, very high risk. The severness depends on the number of forces he has in the choosen area. Examples: AIDS Corp/6, Cholera Ether/3, Influenza Corp/1, Ebola Celes/6, Burbonic plague Ether/5, Typhoid fever Ether/3, Chicken pox Corp/0, tuberculosis Ether/4, leprousy Corp/5. (I am not a doctor nor a medic so if there is something wrong please correct me I have tried to be as accurate as possible) All persons in range who could be affected have to make a immediate infection role, obvious this are a lot more people by a air transmitter (some blocks in the city) than by bodyfluids (just the bystanders who receive some of the splash as the celestial exploded). Malthus normaly is very pleased with this action and rewards the servitor with atleast a new vessel. Distinction: Knight of epedemics*: With just a touch he can identify any disease on a person, a object or a place. Knowing automaticly what the fastest and most effective transmitting vector would be. Captain of illness*: With just a touch he infect someone with a common and normaly nonlethal disease (like measles), but with no chance to avoid it. Baron of decay*: With just a touch he permanently destroyes any medicine or remedy. He can also confuse any doctor so he forgets the cure for one specific patient. Relations: Allied: None Associated: Baal and Saminga (they often ride out together) Hostile: Nybbas, Haagenti, Vapula (medicin is so technical) Enemy: Andrealphus (AIDS is very contraproductive) Basic Rites: - - spend one hour in a contagious area like a sewer* - - killing a human wih a disease* - - watch the death of a human by a disease Chance of Invocation: 1* Invocation Modifiers: +1 a dead rat +2 near someone with the flu +3 a bottle with some bakterias or viruses +4 a quarantine station +5 in a intensive care facility with atleast 10 dying people +6 a ebola outbreak ________________________________________________________________ Marco Lambert (Dipl.-Phys.) * Universitaet Kaiserslautern * Email:lambert@rhrk.uni-kl.de Fachbereich Elektrotechnik * Tel.:(+49) 631/205-3354 Lehrstuhl fuer Mikroelektronik * Fax.:(+49) 631/205-3616 Postfach 3049 * D-67653 Kaiserslautern * Geb.: 12 Raum:262 Germany * ________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #84 ****************************** The material here is (C) 1996 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. 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