From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Apr 7 21:07:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (root@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by deliverator.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA11857; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 18:39:50 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA09737 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 17:19:56 -0500 Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 17:19:56 -0500 Message-Id: <199704072219.RAA09737@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #107 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, April 7 1997 Volume 01 : Number 107 In this digest: Re: IN> Demon of Patriotism IN> Singing question Re: IN> Principalities Re: IN> Demon of Patriotism Re: IN> Replacing vessels Re: IN> Marc and "Trade" Re: IN> Singing question Re: IN> Demon of Patriotism Re: IN> summaries IN> The Brotherhood: Martial Arts group (long) IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #106 Re: IN> Know the Enemy Re: IN> Servotor Attunements of Mikey Re: IN> Marc and "Trade" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 07 Apr 1997 10:51:32 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Demon of Patriotism Gregory Littmann wrote: "I accept that Nationalism is a bad thing, but don't see the distinction between it and Patriotism. How do you distinguish the two. Are they both not just putting one's own nations interests ahead of those of other nations?" No, they are not necessarily the same. A patriot (in the good sense) is just one who loves his country. It is an extension of the sort of love one might have for one's family, one's home, or one's home town. A nationalist in the bad sense (or chauvinist) wants his country to win every contest, military, economic, or ideological. He will not care if it wins by cheating, He will not admit it has any faults. A patriot may be very loud in pointing out his country's fault, because he is very anxious to have them corrected. And he is anxious to have them corrected because he loves his country and cannot endure to see it flawed. A patriot would rather see his country lose an unjust war than win it. That is why, during the Vietname War, many people who wanted the US to pull out fiercely claimed they were patriots. They did not want the country they loved to be doing bad things (such as, in their opinion, that war). So, for instance, my proposed American principality, Samuel, strongly wishes America had never done what it did to the Amerinds, even if not doing it meant that America never expanded even so far as the Mississippi River. Of course, best of all would have been an America where the Amerinds were willing partners. Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 09:24:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Bowman Subject: IN> Singing question I have two questions on the Singing skill: 1. Celestials can use this skill to communicate by humming in pig celestial. Can they communicate with each other (which the skill description implies)? Or just angels with angels, and demons with demons? 2. Singing adds to some Ethereal Songs. Which ones? Michael Bowman bvmi@odin.cc.pdx.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Apr 1997 11:10:56 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Principalities I did not intend my American principality, Samuel, to be a senechal. In fact, I had been imagining Samuel before the bit about senechals was posted; it merely prompted me to make my own post. Of course an angel would not *prefer* one human over another just because of national origin. But that's not what I see Samuel doing. Traditionally, your personal guardian angel not only protects you from (some) dangers, it also urges you on to be the best person you can, to make the best of your natural abilities. A principality is the same thing on a national scale. It's not only Samuel's job to make America flourish. It is, much more centrally, to bring out the best in America. If making America more free and just means making America less prosperous and powerful, Samuel will opt for free and just every time. Patron saints of countries are also a good idea, and could well be imagined working in cooperation with the principality. Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 12:24:53 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Demon of Patriotism On Apr 7, 9:49am, Gregory Littmann wrote: > Subject: Re: IN> Demon of Patriotism > > > On Mon, 7 Apr 1997, John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: > > > > > A better Word might be Nationalism. IMO, rabid nationalism > > is bad thing, but we are sorely lacking in patriotism. > > > > > I accept that Nationalism is a bad thing, but don't see the distinction > between it and Patriotism. How do you distinguish the two. Are they both > not just putting one's own nations interests ahead of those of other > nations? Not exactly, though that is a common misconception. Nationalism is pretty much as you describe. Very, very accurate, in fact. According to Webster's: na.tion.al.ism \'nash-n*l-.iz-*m, -*n-*l-\ n : loyalty and devotion to a nation; esp : a sense of national consciousness exalting one nation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations or supranational groups Whereas patriotism is more of a love of a country, not necessarily at the expense of others. Webster's again: pa.tri.o.tism \'pa--tre--*-.tiz-*m chiefly Brit 'pa-\ n : love for or devotion to one's country - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | "A fundamental principle of economics is that the | | more you tax something, the less you get of it. | | In this country we tax success most of all." | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 12:39:34 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Replacing vessels > 1. In "A Bright Dream," Nicole indicates that all Tariel needs is to get > over his Trauma and regenerate some Essence, and he'll be good as new. > "Soon, he'll earn enough Essence to make another corporeal vessel for > himself, then he'll be back, prowling the streets again." 'Essence' can mean two things in the casual conversating of characters (as opposed to the game-speak of players. Game-speak: that number on the character sheet used to power Songs and do other stuff. Characters: Essence is the essential energy of creation. Character points can be thought of, in this context, as really, really concentrated Essence that you have access to. If you don't like this explanation, just re-write that little sentence in your mind. =) > 3. When a celestial "takes off" his vessel, it's damage condition is frozen > until he "puts it on" again. Thus, a vessel cannot recover from being dead > while the celestial is Traumatized. In the story, she does mention that the dead vessel will be coming back. In fact, the quote you give above specifically says 'another vessel'. > So here's what we came up with: When a celestial's vessel is killed, the > celestial will immediately and instinctively attempt to ascend to the > celestial plane. If she does not have the necessary essence, her celestial > soul will remain trapped in the dead corporeal body until she can > regenerate the essence required. Celestial discord can really catch up to > you here... When a vessel is killed, the characters forces are cut loose in a very disorganized fashion. If the being is a celestial, and they have a heart, the heart draws the forces and puts them back in order, but this whole procedure can put the character into trauma. If they don't have a heart... well, we're talking about that right now! Have patience, por favor. > The issue of replacing the vessel remains unresolved. Any ideas? Spend character points to buy a new one. Or convince your Superior that s/he should give you a new one. If you 'died' in the line of duty and did a good job, most Superiors will give you _something_ to use on earth. (It does them no good to have one of their better agents moping around heaven doing nothing.) As punishment, a Superior might give an inadequate (i.e. low cost) Vessel... possibly with flaws. In my own campaign (and this is most definitely NOT canon... in fact it's ANTI-canon), I don't charge for a new vessel if someone got whacked in the line of duty. If they did a good job, they get a new one that costs as much as the old one (of course, their friends probably got other NEW stuff to as a reward for a good job). If they didn't do so hot, they will get a lesser vessel (a real fixer-upper you got here!). If they royally screwed up, they get a new vessel with character points 'on loan'. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | "A fundamental principle of economics is that the | | more you tax something, the less you get of it. | | In this country we tax success most of all." | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 13:18:29 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Marc and "Trade" > 1) Should the rite "Make a 100% profit on an honorable transaction" be > left strictly to GW interpretation? I assume making LESS that the 100% > profit would be insufficient, but how much profit can a servitor of Marc > make on a deal, ANY deal, before it goes to the realm of "dishonorable?" > Could a 500% profit EVER be considered honorable, even if the deal was > mutually satisfying? Yes. As long as the deal was 'mutually satisfying' and both parties bargain in good faith and kept up their end of the bargain, it is, by definition, honorable. Mind you, there are some very _distasteful_ and illegal means of making 500% profits, probably more than there are legal means, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. I'll give an abstraction of a real-world example. Company A needs widgets. It costs the company about $200 a widget to make, so they go looking to see if someone else does it cheaper. Company B makes doo-hickeys, but says they can make widgets for company A for $60. It costs Company B $10 to make each widget. Company is quite happy with its $140 savings per widget, and company B is quite happy with its tidy profit margin. Of course, if company C says, "hey, lookit these profits! We can make widgets and sell them for $30!", then the price will drop rapidly and company A might become very, very happy! > 3) Marc's doesn't seem to be above a bit of skimming off the top: "He > invented the concept of salary and doesn't stint himself" Well, he's > definitely a Western-World kind of guy. I find it really odd that > Novalis and Michael don't hate this guy, considering the current state > of the business world in Western society, and what a mockery it seems to > be making of "honor" and "peace" (not to mention what business is doing > to the rainforest!). Is Marc HAPPY with business, American style, or is > he just losing control of his Word? He seems to be getting gang-banged > by Nybbas, Valefor and Vapula, but doesn't seem to be worried about it, > based on the IN NOMINE book (sounds like a supplement for Marc is BADLY > needed!) Any servitor of Marc in my campaign had better be stomping out > greedy corporate lawyers, many of whom would be demons or > demon-servants, since such types should be natural enemies of Marc, if > we are to use Western society and "Golden Rule" ethics as our backdrop. There are good businesses and bad. There are good corporations and bad. There are some that are neither, both, moving from one to another and an near-infinite level of gradiations from both extremes. Considering how important money and trade are in maintaining society (in fact, they are nearly essential for any society larger than two people, and arguably even then) it should simply be assumed that are diabolicals working against Marc. And that Marc is working against them. Money is not a 'thing', money is an idea. Money at its best symbolizes that two beings can engage in mutually beneficial trade with no one being harmed or abused. This mutual trading and interdependence are what make up a civilization. Also, Marc does for himself what every other superior does, just with better bookkeeping. He's not 'skimming'. He supports the symphony and this, in itself, gives him power. For example, Laurence beats up demons. This serves a dual purpose of supporting his word and the symphony all at once (and it furthers any plans that he might have). Marc does the same thing with money. If his corporations do well, he has supported the word and the symphony (by encouraging honest trade) and has furthered his own plans by strengthening his position for the _next_ battle with the forces of darkness. > 4) Is the "divine fortune" composed strictly of Essence? Nope. > 5) Why should there be an invocation bonus for having "a dollar someone > gave you for nothing"? That's not trade, that's a favor! Or "illegal > goods, smuggled from another country"? That's not honorable unless one > is smuggling medical supplies to help sick kids, etc. Smuggling diamonds > illegally out of Africa, with the sole intention of making a profit off > them, isn't the kind of thing that advances the cause of Heaven, UNLESS > the diamond mines were ingaged in unehtical activity, and the profits > were used in some wealful cause. Anything else is Greed, which was > considered bad, the last time I checked on basic ethics... These aren't necessarily _good_ things, per se, these are things that will attract Marc's attention! In the 'illegal goods' invocation modifier, all illegal means that the local laws are trying to restrict trade in some way. The angel in question does NOT have to be engaged in said trade! If you, as an angel of Marc, get some pushers busted and end up with some cocaine in your possession, that will work. Each angel who _engages_ in trade, should also make sure that the trade supports good (or is at least neutral). BTW, a 'favor' is a trade of sorts. 'You do something for me later in return for something now'. I think you meant that a dollar for nothing was a 'gift'. > Marc isn't the type of Archangel that needs to be spreading his word - > business is everywhere. He ought to be more worried about getting > control of it back from the demons... He's trying his best, but he has a _lot_ of enemies and humans are so wonderfully corruptable by material things. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | "A fundamental principle of economics is that the | | more you tax something, the less you get of it. | | In this country we tax success most of all." | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 13:38:19 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Singing question > 1. Celestials can use this skill to communicate by humming in pig > celestial. Can they communicate with each other (which the skill > description implies)? Or just angels with angels, and demons with demons? This is one of the Great Questions that is being discussed by the high muckity-mucks right now. > 2. Singing adds to some Ethereal Songs. Which ones? None... in the main rulebook. I made up one and posted it awhile ago (non-canon) and I have hinted strongly to the authors that it would be a good idea if some were in forthcoming supplements. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | "A fundamental principle of economics is that the | | more you tax something, the less you get of it. | | In this country we tax success most of all." | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 12:48:13 -0500 (CDT) From: Bolie Williams IV Subject: Re: IN> Demon of Patriotism On Mon, 7 Apr 1997, Gregory Littmann wrote: > On Mon, 7 Apr 1997, John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: > > A better Word might be Nationalism. IMO, rabid nationalism > > is bad thing, but we are sorely lacking in patriotism. > > > I accept that Nationalism is a bad thing, but don't see the distinction > between it and Patriotism. How do you distinguish the two. Are they both > not just putting one's own nations interests ahead of those of other > nations? Patriotism is putting the good of your country above your own good. In this sense, it's a selfless devotion to the good of the many (though a specific many in this case). It seems like an Angel would push the part about devoting yourself to improving your country and sacrificing yourself for others while a demon would focus on the part about putting your country above others (perhaps by bringing other countries down). Bolie IV ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Bolie Williams IV bolie@io.com http://www.io.com/~bolie/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 12:19:05 -0700 From: Hollis McCray Subject: Re: IN> summaries At 09:22 AM 4/4/97 -0600, you wrote: > >I have started to type up brief summaries of each choir's resonance & its >mechanics and started to work on the songs. I tentatively plan to have >one sheet for each Song, one for each superior (summary of servitor >attunements, choir attunements, rel. to other Arches, etc.), and the >one-page choir resonance sheet. > >Would SJ Games have a problem with me doing this and giving a sheet to the >players? I want to do this so I can staple my pregens to a sheet that >shows their Choir resonance, one for each of their Songs, and one for >their superior. This would make it easier for them (they'd know what they >can do) and easier for me (having a summary booklet and not needing to >loan the players my book whenever they want to use an ability). > >if there is no problem (I am trying to summarize, not copy parts of the >text), would anyone else like a copy when I get done? Yeah, me! >matt s. > >"Life is like a yo-yo: .-. >it has its ups and downs, __ __| | >plus a few loops now & then." \ V / (() > --Matt, a.k.a. CliffyQS@Earthling.net |_| > Hollis McCray Madman at Large email: Mccrayh@yoda.cochise.cc.az.us "No matter where you go, there you are." - -Buckaroo Banzai ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 15:53:09 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: IN> The Brotherhood: Martial Arts group (long) Okay, here's some ideas I've been kicking around. The basic premise is that certain special humans have trained themselves to such a high degree that they have magical-seeming abilities (i.e. Songs). Comments and suggestions are welcome. Enjoy! ================================================================ The brotherhood (a loose translation... the actual word is gender-neutral even though a bare majority of the members are male) has existed for millenia, its exact origins lost in antiquity. The most ancient temple documents do describe 'beings of great enlightenment' teaching the founders the skills that became the cornerstone of the philosophy and techniques of the order. The largest and oldest temple is hidden somewhere in asia. Some people say in Tibet, some say deep in China, still others claim it's in a hidden valley high in the mountains that is eternally spring-like. With modern satellite techniques and the industrialization of the world, it seems difficult to believe that they could have remained concealed were it not for the powers they have developed to mask their presence. This is the Temple of Light. The rigorous cycle of meditation and practice make it nearly impossible for the temple as a whole to have an impact on the world. So they have representatives spread through the world who report back occasionally and fight what they perceive as evil. The variety of members is staggering. They come from all continents, all races, and all walks of life. The only unifying element is a common belief in the philosphy of the Temple: improve oneself spiritually and defeat those who would block enlightenment. Some are born of members within the temple, but the majority are 'seekers' who have journeyed far to receive the training that only the temple can give. The life of a typical seeker has several stages: 1) Journey: Most seekers spend years looking for something that has eluded them in their mundane life, something to give their life form and meaning. Many literally seek out the Temple. Those deemed unworthy never find it and some of those are never found again. Others are lucky enough to find a teacher nearer to home. 2) Acceptance: The seeker has to dedicate himself to the philosphy of the temple and its strictures. There is usually some sybolic event involved here, such as accepting a cup of tea, or crossing a threshold. The free will and knowledge of the seeker is necessary. Then they are known as disciples. 3) Control: What's puzzling to many of the seekers is that the beginning of the training seems to be sitting around and doing nothing. In fact these meditative techniques are essential to gain control of the Ki that exists within all self-aware creatures. (Celestials refer to this energy as Essence.) Disciples typically have 6 forces. Once a disciple has mastered himself, he is ready for the next stage. 4) Growth: This stage is long and varies the most in length. Some acolytes never leave this stage their entire lives and are not thought less highly of for it. Here is where the techniques (otherwise known as Songs to Celestials) the temple teaches are passed on and practiced. Acolytes usually have between 6 and 8 Forces. 5) Mastery: When an acolyte has passed a certain point in their spiritual evolution, they become masters. It is different for each person and the amount of time required varies widely. Almost all describe it as a 'moment of illumination'. Only Masters and higher can teach techniques, though even acolytes can teach control. Some masters travel extensively while others stay in the temple to instruct and guide. These martial adepts have at _least_ 8 Forces. 6) Journey: A master who has reached this stage will realize that it is time to leave the temple. They once again become seekers and are rarely heard from again. Usually they find a place of solitude to continue their spiritual growth. Sometimes they die peacefully in their sleep. Sometimes they return with new teachings or instructions. Sometimes _both_. Unfortunately, some flawed individuals have learned the teachings of the Temple and have perverted them. They either use their skills for their own gain or even found their own Temples to spread their twisted knowledge. The Brotherhood continually has to ward off attacks by these ones and has to initiate actions of their own to foil the plans of the evil temples. The philosphy of such 'dark' temples is very similar to that of the Temple of Light, but with some subtle twists. Self-enlightenment can take precedence over the enlightenment of others. The unenlightened are lesser beings and can be discount or used. Mastery over others proves one's control and so on. The Brotherhood and the Temple of Light can be worked into a campaign in a wide variety of ways. Some possibilities are: 1) The Temple of Light and its evil counterparts are not directly allied with either Heaven or Hell and instead are a solely _human_ instituation that sides with whom they wish. 2) All temples are aligned with Heaven or Hell and are run by Saints or the Undead, respectively. Possibly by actual angels, especially for the larger temples. Soldiers are trained here for the War. 3) The Brotherhood is allied with the mysterious Grigori (who, in fact, were the first teachers of the Brotherhood). Depending on the nature of the Grigori in your campaign, this can take several tacks! 4) The Temple of Light is actually a diabolic front and there is no 'good' temple (or it had been destroyed or subverted years ago). Starting players might _think_ that they are working for one side and then discover the horrible truth! 5) Or, you can use a mish-mash of these ideas. Some purely human temples, some heavenly, some diabolical, some grigori, or even a few dedicated to the old gods! The Temple teaches many martial skills as well as many powerful techniques (i.e. Songs). These are sometimes different from the ones in the book and have different names, but otherwise all the Song mechanics are observed. Interesting names are left as an exercise for the interested reader. If the text allows a practioner to use either the Ethereal or Celestial version of the Songs, they cost two times and three times the normal Essence cost respectively. Old Techniques Entropy: Age cannot be reduced, only put off for a time and only for oneself. Form: Masters can use the Ethereal and Celestial versions. Healing: As per the rules, except that it takes several minutes to several hours per treatment depending on the seriousness of the wound (GM's discretion). Motion: For one essence, and a successful mediation roll, the practitioner can simply hover in place for a number of _hours_ equal to the check digit roll. Masters can use the Ethereal and Celestial versions. Numious Corpus: These are usually only learned by evil acolytes or masters. And they modify the appearance of the user _permanently_. The modifications are only functional when Essence is spent, though. Projection: Masters can use the Ethereal version of this Song. Shields: Masters can use the Ethereal version of this Song. Tongues: Masters can use the Ethereal and Celestial versions of these songs but must spend at least 10 minutes per Essence spent for any of the versions. New Techniques Each of these cost one Essence and should be treated as Corporeal Songs. Strength: For a single attack/action, the practitioner can increase their strength by the level of this technique. Kiai: A mighty shout that stuns all creatures within level yards that fail to make a Will roll. Nerve Strike: Paralyze a single opponent for level rounds that fails to make a strength roll minus the check digit of the strike. New Skills Judo: This skill covers all martial styles, not just Judo. It works the same as the Fighting skill, but uses Agility instead of Strength. No default. Instead of doing damage, a user can decided, before rolling the dice, to throw a person on the ground. The person on the ground suffers -2 from all attack and dodge rolls AND the check digits for both until they can get up (takes one round). A successful acrobatics roll (with a penalty equal to the check digit) will allow a person to stand without using an action. Mediation: Allows the user to clear their mind from distractions and focus their will. For a number of hours equal to the check digit, the user only consumes one-quarter the amount of oxygen and has a skill level bonus on all perception rolls as long as they take no action (the max bonus for a Resonance is +1). At higher skill levels (5-6) the practitioner only use one-quarter the normal amount of oxygen, can stop or slow all but the most serious bleeding wounds, has a greatly improved temperature tolerance. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | "A fundamental principle of economics is that the | | more you tax something, the less you get of it. | | In this country we tax success most of all." | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Apr 1997 04:40:21 -0400 From: Stacy Stroud Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #106 At 10:53 AM 4/7/97 -0500, you wrote: >On Mon, 7 Apr 1997, John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: > >> >> A better Word might be Nationalism. IMO, rabid nationalism >> is bad thing, but we are sorely lacking in patriotism. >> >> > I accept that Nationalism is a bad thing, but don't see the distinction >between it and Patriotism. How do you distinguish the two. Are they both >not just putting one's own nations interests ahead of those of other >nations? The dictionary definitions appear very similar--"devotion to the interests of a culture or nation" (nationalism) vs. "love and devotion for one's country" (patriotism). Those are from the _Webster's II New Riverside University Dictionary_, by the way. However, generally "patriotism" carries a positive connotation, while "nationalism" is more ambiguous. As to whether either is good or bad, we're probably dealing with a spectrum of attitudes here, which run the gamut from selfless to selfish. But for In Nomine purposes, I'd define the "ends" of the spectrum thusly: * Promoting one's country as such, even when in the wrong; promoting the idea that citizens of one's own country are "better" than everyone else. I'd call this Word "Nationalism" and assign it to a demonic servant of Malphas, as the original poster did. * Promoting self-sacrifice in the name of one's countrymen, and loyalty to national ideals that go beyond oneself. That I'd call "Patriotism" and assign an angelic patron. Of course, just as with "Religious Devotion" (Khalid's bailiwick) vs. "Religious Intolerance" (another of Malphas' playgrounds), these two Words can often shade into each other. However, since one promotes relative selfishness and the other relative selflessness, I think the distinction needs to be observed. >BTW, I thought this demon was great! As did I. Anyone wanna do up his angelic counterpart? Stacy Stroud sstroud@uky.campus.mci.net ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 16:58:25 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Know the Enemy At 9:53 AM -0500 4/4/97, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >Know The Enemy [Errata:] Janus: Here today, gone tomorrow. Fun until you realize you're not getting anywhere meaningful with them. They will pick your pockets if you are not careful, so don't wear anything. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 17:06:45 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Servotor Attunements of Mikey At 4:45 AM -0500 4/4/97, jhk@atp.dk wrote: > Dato: 04/04/97 > Fra: Jens H. Kruuse JHK - TEXT > Til: In Nomine Mailing List I8018344 - IBMMAIL > Emne: Re: IN> Servotor Attunements of Mikey >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >(Easter vacation has delayed my response) > >John and Elizabeth, > >I'm afraid you both missed my main point: The (lack of) range for the howl. >I would prefer for the Michaelite to be able to howl and charge, >NOT charge, stop, howl, and bash. Hmmm... Okay, I stand by my notion that it's for when the angel is surrounded and needs to even the odds... If you don't like this, then maybe you could use the resonance range modifiers on p. 57. >As for the handcuffs you mentioned, E., >you'd better have those cuffs ready and pray that your oppnent is obliging >you by keeping his wrists together otherwise I doubt that one combat round >is time enough to slap 'em on. 5 seconds on an otherwise unresisting target? No problem, if you ask me -- yeah, they'd better be in the back pocket and no fumbling (perhaps an agility roll if you're feeling mean), but otherwise? Nah, no problem. >(New Skill: Cuffing? ;-) ) >Also, I don't like the idea of a Servitor of War using his Attunement in >order to "arrest" someone - I think that Michael meant it for inflicting >bodily harm. Sometimes you want to ask questions of a prisoner... (Esp. a human one.) [...] - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Apr 1997 16:52:35 -0400 From: Tom Beliech Subject: Re: IN> Marc and "Trade" John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: > > Could a 500% profit EVER be considered honorable, even if the deal was > > mutually satisfying? > > Yes. As long as the deal was 'mutually satisfying' and both > parties bargain in good faith and kept up their end of the bargain, > it is, by definition, honorable. Mind you, there are some very > _distasteful_ and illegal means of making 500% profits, probably > more than there are legal means, but that doesn't mean they don't > exist. > I'll give an abstraction of a real-world example. > Company A needs widgets. It costs the company about $200 a > widget to make, so they go looking to see if someone else > does it cheaper. Company B makes doo-hickeys, but says > they can make widgets for company A for $60. It costs > Company B $10 to make each widget. Company is quite happy > with its $140 savings per widget, and company B is quite > happy with its tidy profit margin. > Of course, if company C says, "hey, lookit these > profits! We can make widgets and sell them for $30!", then > the price will drop rapidly and company A might become > very, very happy! The part of this that seems suspect to me is the separation of the abstract term "company" from the humans that make up the company. If we're just going to discuss profit margins, we might take a look at, sat AT&T, who might be able to fit loosely in a situation like you decribe above. But AT&T has a terrible reputation for laying off workers - and anyone who has ever been laid off isn't going to speak highly of the experience, and may be only to happy to "expend essence" against the offending company if it becomes possible. Basically, I guess I'm trying to figure out how much control Marc actually has over his Word right now - very little, it seems! To say that humans are flummoxing his "Word" is one thing (and true, very true), but he IS the Archangel, and I doubt that the Big Boss in the Sky is going to look kindly on an Archangel who loses control of his own Word. To what extent have the Demon Princes been able to subvert Marc, and Does a "company" generate essence as an entity, or is it dependant upon the individual persons who make it up? I'd say the latter - the concept that a corporation (note the root of that word) makes up an independant entity is strictly a legal convention, especially in this day and age, when it seems that few people who actually do the "dirty work" for their companies have any say in the running of them. In terms of the way people use essence unconsciously, companies are often non-harmonious, people at various levels "spending essence" in order to outdo or exert influence upon one another. Kinda like Heaven and Hell, if you consider it. So in your above example, we may need to determine HOW Company B an make $10 Widgets - is it a natural advantage of location (in terms of natural resources, the skills of the manufacturer, etc) or is it because they pay their workers terribly or take advantage of them? I ask because money is the basic unit of "Trade" as Marc promotes it, and money, as you define it, "at its best symbolizes that two beings can engage in mutually beneficial trade with no one being harmed or abused." Problem is that money means different things depending on how much you have and the situation you are in - there is no universal standard, since a dollar will take you farther in Kansas than it will in New York. Money is what gives value to laborers in the modern condition - one can ask why a teacher makes so much less money than a doctor, when both are equally important to the Symphony and to society, in their own realms. Money at its best CAN be heavenly - but the Western reality has drifted so far off this goal that it's going to take ALL of Marc's attention to get things back on track. The portrayal of him in the book - seemingly a happy, mildly busy Archangel with enough time to look snappy and impress most of the other Archangels - seems, well, dissonant, seeing the sheer level of threat that is being made to his Word. Either Marc's got a LOT more on his mind than his book portrayal would imply, or else he's risking incompetence and in danger of losing his word (both of which would make fun RP!) What I'm trying to get at is that "Trade" and money are not the same thing - money is but the abstraction that allows people to turn their work into a living, in a society where the means of production is no longer in the hands of those who know how to produce! When everyone can grow their own food and take care of themselves and their own property, money is useless and barter is the acceptable norm. The connection between money and trade is only one of convenience, and not necessarily one that promotes the Angels' cause. "Love of Money is the root of all evil" the proverb goes, and promoting currency seems rather dangerous if other Archangels, like Dominic, begin to see Marc losing control of his Word to the demons. That Marc has few real enemies in Heaven (only David and Blandine hate him) strikes me as odd, given the current status of the Symphony. Currency and money can actually be a barrier to fair trade! It devalues the hard work and dedication that a honest exchange often involve. Example - A monopolizing company can spread its profits to buy services that actually restrict "Trade" - having local officials (and slick lawyers) in one's pockets is a barrier to a fair exchange of services. And yes, this is NOT Marc's doing, but a combination of human free will and a little demonic influence here and there - but this DOES directly affect Marc's word. Instead of being a pleasant little diplomat, he ought to be fighting mad, or having an immense Celestial Migraine right now - and he ought to be fighting Valefor and Nybbas with a vengeance that we thought only Michael can muster... Of course, this is getting all down to viewpoints. Obviously, I would play Marc much differently than he is presented in the book - my main beef is that he shouldn't be very calm and collected right now, since his Word isn't exactly on the rise... > > There are good businesses and bad. There are good corporations > and bad. There are some that are neither, both, moving from one > to another and an near-infinite level of gradiations from both > extremes. Considering how important money and trade are in maintaining > society (in fact, they are nearly essential for any society larger > than two people, and arguably even then) it should simply be > assumed that are diabolicals working against Marc. And that Marc > is working against them. Don't forget that not all the Archangels LIKE society as it currently is. Novalis would definitely be breathing down Marc's neck if that sort of thing wasn't against her nature. Dominic ought to be somewhat miffed with Marc, too, since money and justice are becoming more and more antagonistic. I only feel that Marc is not as "In control" as he is portrayed to be, and his servitor attunements and rites reflect a confidence that he shouldn't be having right now, barring a BIG deux es machina from the Big Boss. > Money is not a 'thing', money is an idea. Money at its > best symbolizes that two beings can engage in mutually beneficial > trade with no one being harmed or abused. This mutual trading > and interdependence are what make up a civilization. But money is failing to have this effect (at least as most humans would see it), and Marc's Word seems to be in a it of trouble. > Also, Marc does for himself what every other superior > does, just with better bookkeeping. He's not 'skimming'. He > supports the symphony and this, in itself, gives him power. > For example, Laurence beats up demons. This serves a dual > purpose of supporting his word and the symphony all at once > (and it furthers any plans that he might have). You got me on that one. What struck me about Marc is that he doesn't seem to HAVE many plans right now (but I'll fix that when my campaign starts =>) > Marc does > the same thing with money. If his corporations do well, he > has supported the word and the symphony (by encouraging honest > trade) and has furthered his own plans by strengthening his > position for the _next_ battle with the forces of darkness. Can you name some corporations that you would classify as Marc's? Maybe Ben and Jerry's? > > 4) Is the "divine fortune" composed strictly of Essence? > > Nope. What is it then? Are we also considering corporeal treasure, like the Vatican collections? Also relics and reliquaries? > These aren't necessarily _good_ things, per se, these > are things that will attract Marc's attention! That makes sense - but if you're summoning your Archangel, wouldn't you rather be doing something that he really likes, unless you were in a bind and wanted him to come out fighting, so to speak? > In the 'illegal > goods' invocation modifier, all illegal means that the local laws > are trying to restrict trade in some way. The angel in question > does NOT have to be engaged in said trade! Good point. It just struck me that an angel of Trade ought to be pretty ACTIVE in things, rather than a passive observer, as the Word is a dynamic and threatened property in the modern Symphony. > If you, as an angel > of Marc, get some pushers busted and end up with some cocaine in > your possession, that will work. Each angel who _engages_ in > trade, should also make sure that the trade supports good (or is > at least neutral). Those are the kinds of things I was thinking a servitor of Marc should be doing. > BTW, a 'favor' is a trade of sorts. 'You do something > for me later in return for something now'. I think you meant > that a dollar for nothing was a 'gift'. You're right - excuse my faulty word choice. I STILL think that a dollar given as a gift doesn't support trade - it's an act of generosity. Unless, of course, good karma counts as some sort of Celestial currency that Marc has dominion over (which would REALLY complicate this discussion!) > > Marc isn't the type of Archangel that needs to be spreading his word - > > business is everywhere. He ought to be more worried about getting > > control of it back from the demons... > > He's trying his best, but he has a _lot_ of enemies > and humans are so wonderfully corruptable by material things. True - my point is that the IN NOMINE book doesn't really talk about Marc as having enemies - the only mention I've found is the little chart on page 201 showing Nybbas and Marc in direct opposition - which is exactly what I expected. It just seemed that, in the pages describing Marc, that he isn't worried about Nybbas (likely more a fault of omission than intent), but at the rate Nybbas is gaining > |John Karakash _/ Tom Beliech (feisty type that I am) ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #107 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1996 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.