From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Apr 7 22:03:37 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (root@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by deliverator.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA26076; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 20:46:26 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA18298 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 20:13:55 -0500 Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 20:13:55 -0500 Message-Id: <199704080113.UAA18298@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #108 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, April 7 1997 Volume 01 : Number 108 In this digest: Re: IN> Bright Lilim Attunements Re: IN>Zombi Thoughts and Ideas IN> help for lost message Re: IN> Resonance questions Re: IN> Singing question Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #104 Re: IN> The Brotherhood: Martial Arts group (long) IN> Baron's of Alaemon/Dagger of Bithynia Questions IN> Concerning my last post: Baron's of Alaemon/Dagger of Bithynia Questions IN>What's my na-aa-aa-aa-me Re: IN>Zombi Thoughts and Ideas Re: IN> Principalities Re: IN> Marc and "Trade" Re: IN> Marc and "Trade" (LONG!) IN> IN: Other Sources Re: IN> summaries IN> Know the Enemy #3 IN> Know The Enemy #2 IN> In Nomine Gargoyles... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 17:20:53 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Bright Lilim Attunements At 8:49 AM -0400 4/7/97, John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: >On Apr 5, 7:19pm, Grim88 wrote: >> Subject: IN> Bright Lilim Attunements >> Is there an official list anywhere of the the Major Archangels' Attunements >> granted to Bright Lilim? > > Nope. Elizabeth has her own rules, though, that look >pretty good. Currently archived at: http://www.nocturne.org/inc/rules.html (And Walter Milliken helped me with them, actually, so it's more of a co-authored thing.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 17:36:38 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN>Zombi Thoughts and Ideas At 2:51 AM -0400 4/7/97, Michael C. Nutt wrote: >[...] (BTW, just what *did* happen to >Charlie? Went celestial? In which case, why did the old vessel stay around? >Did he "die"? In which case, how? No rules for "bleeding to death later...") (Body Bag, listed in Charlie's equipment in the character writeup in _Pyramid_... What, no *subscription*? Horrors. One assumes that the vessel was toasted and Charlie bugged out just before it really fell down for the final time...) >[...]Maybe it'd be a good idea to rig up something that >would destroy the vessel in case of your "death", although Kobal would just >*love* to find a way to set it off prematurely, I betcha. I am now thinking of Tweety Bird and "fall down go *BOOM*" lines... This is all your fault. (Bugs Bunny is a Balseraph... Lookit all the stuff he pulls out of thin air to make his own personal universe show up? Road Runner is, of course, Ofanite. Wile E Coyote is a victim of Kobal and a servant of Vapula...) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Apr 1997 16:40:47 -0500 From: tom timberlake Subject: IN> help for lost message help me please. i had an idea for an interpretation for the third verse of the Live song mentioned, if bio-memory serves, in the message "IN> Sympathy for the Devil 4/5," but i hit the wrong button while trying to store it and it is gone. can anyone re-supply me with the message so i can finish my interpreting and get it off my [alleged] mind? also, some of you may be to young to remember it, but Mr.Mister had a hit song that would be perfect to In Nomine by: "Kyrie Elieson". thanks for listening to the newbie. Tom. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 17:24:55 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Resonance questions At 7:55 AM -0500 4/5/97, Tom Beliech wrote: [...] >1) In pure RP terms, how exactly does a Balseraph view himself when he >uses his resonance? He is telling the truth, same as any Seraph. This is why contradicting himself (unless he can resolve the contradiction later by making the subject believe another lie) is dissonant to him. He honestly believes that he is not lying, at the time that he constructs his worldview. Your intrepretation, of him projecting his own personal views into/onto another, is probably quite accurate. >2) On the Djinn - what do they DO with themselves? The "Backrubs" >example didn't help me much, since it just said that Djinn don't care >about backrubs. But the text also hinted that Djinn DO care, but they >just don't like to admit it, or indulge in it. My question - Why would a >Djinn choose to attune himself to something in the first place, or more >exactly, what motivates a Djinn to use his resonance, since he can't >directly attack his "subject" unless he serves the proper Prince? To trace it, perhaps (I know where this coin is, and we can follow it), or just for the heck of it, to prove that they *don't* care what happens to their attuned thing. It's a whim sort of thing. And if they're ordered to, they probably will. They'll just have to stand back or make a Will roll to relinquish the attunement when the time comes to toast the whatever/whoever it was. >3) On the whole - it seemed to me that demonic resonances were much less >clearly defined than angelic ones. Does anyone else share this feeling? Depends on the Band, generally, no. Kyrios take the cake for problematic attunements... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 17:54:05 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Singing question At 1:38 PM -0400 4/7/97, John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: >> 1. Celestials can use this skill to communicate by humming in pig >> celestial. Can they communicate with each other (which the skill >> description implies)? Or just angels with angels, and demons with demons? > > This is one of the Great Questions that is being discussed >by the high muckity-mucks right now. It states clearly on p. 187 that demons can already talk a different "language"...in corporeal form, unlike angels. I'd say that pig-celestial is angel-angel and demon-demon. With possibly exceptions for Newly Fallen or Redeemed.... (Another thing being hashed over, or so I hear.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 17:43:35 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #104 At 10:54 AM -0500 4/7/97, Shadowcat wrote: >> >> >> >if there is no problem (I am trying to summarize, not copy parts of the >> >text), would anyone else like a copy when I get done? Frankly, while you can do whatever you want in the privacy of your own home (run off five million photocopies of the whole book and paper your walls with it...), and therefore can probably give "fair use" copies of *some* work to your players (just don't let them give it to other people!), you probabaly *CAN'T* send it out on the Net to J. Random Person who wants it. (You could send them a list of the page numbers that you found useful, and they can compile their own, of course.) This is subject to Moriah and/or SJG legal-beagles, of course, but it's a "common-sense" approach. So while a summery is a useful thing and likely enough I'll do up one for the various Choir/Band attunements (and the effects of range on attunement Check Digits, and the time-for-skill tradeoff for Songs...), I won't offer it to anyone outside the GM and maybe the immediate players. And I doubt that you'll get permission to give it to others, even if you do manage to get "lend to players" in there. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Apr 1997 16:55:53 -0500 From: tom timberlake Subject: Re: IN> The Brotherhood: Martial Arts group (long) i like it!! an obvious place for the self-defense minded Malakim of David to use as a base or a cover for a role. the kiai makes one wonder about connections to the Davidean angels... don't let your wings drag in the mud. Tom. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 19:45:41 -0500 From: rbeall@fdldotnet.com (Grim88) Subject: IN> Baron's of Alaemon/Dagger of Bithynia Questions It says that a Baron of Alaemon gets ALL the band attunments of Alaemon (the Dagger also grants this). My question concerns these attunements. Most of the attunments affect the Bands resonance, so is it possible to actually use an attunement of another band if it requires the Bands attunment? Example since I am probably very unclear: A Baron is granted ALL Attunments. A Balseraph Duke of Alaemon, being a Baron, gets the attunments of the Shedim and Djinn. Both of these attunments affect resonance, so, how does this work? Answers very much appreciated. Ryan Beall aka: Grim88 rbeall@fdl.fdldotnet.com grim88@hotmail.com grim@somethingorother.com http://members.tripod.com/~Grim88/index.html "Tragedy is when I cut my finger. Comedy is when you fall through an open sewer and die." - Mel Brooks "The world is a joke, and humanity is the punchline." - Kobal, Demon Prince of Dark Humor ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 19:49:58 -0500 From: rbeall@fdldotnet.com (Grim88) Subject: IN> Concerning my last post: Baron's of Alaemon/Dagger of Bithynia Questions Please change all instances of the word Baron, to Duke. Sorry for the confusion. Ryan Beall aka: Grim88 rbeall@fdl.fdldotnet.com grim88@hotmail.com grim@somethingorother.com http://members.tripod.com/~Grim88/index.html "Tragedy is when I cut my finger. Comedy is when you fall through an open sewer and die." - Mel Brooks "The world is a joke, and humanity is the punchline." - Kobal, Demon Prince of Dark Humor ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 16:35:13 -0600 From: Bremstrahlung X Subject: IN>What's my na-aa-aa-aa-me Salutations Anyway, I'm building an alternative Angel of Music at the moment, as I really disliked Melody and Thrash's backgrounds (I'm sorry: I've completely loved all of Leath's other stuff you've posted though. 60s=peace and love punk=Nasty people was just too symplistic for me: Where does the Rock Against Racisim and the clash fit into this? Hadn't Free love had devolved into Free Sex by 1970. Punk didn't sell any records really, despite it's huge influence. Wouldn't Thrash have actually started working at the Heavy Metal bands of the early seventies?) Of course my problem is thinking up a name for her: I'm thinking Spheres or something (As in "Music of the"), but has anyone got any better suggestions? Thanks alot, peeps. You won't fool the kids for long BSX, Angel of Britpop ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 08:42:35 GMT+10 From: "Leathal Weapon" <938269@wrpc.riv.csu.edu.au> Subject: Re: IN>Zombi Thoughts and Ideas In reply to: OK, no Celestial Forces, true, > but *8* Corporeal Forces combined with 2 Ethereal Forces, plus the memories > that Tariel had and 8 levels of Numinous Corpus. I have to disagree with you on this one. Not that it's not a good idea, but I don't agree with the reasoning behind it. IMO, Celestial vessels are different to human bodies in several respects. One of these is that they are not truly alive in the human sense. They are simply a bag of meat animated by a celestial entity. Since the vessel's strength comes from the celestial, it has no inherent strength of it's own, therefore when abandoned by the celestial (or they are exorcised by 'death') it becomes as useless as a boneless chicken in terms of physical ability (it may still look tough though). I may be willing to concede this point though, and say that a celestial vessel could be animated and have its inherent strength and agility, I'll have to think about it. The memories bit I totally disagree with. The memories and abilities of a celestial are a part of that celestial, and they store them in their 'pattern' if you like, not in the 'brain' of whatever vessel they are inhabiting. Therefore when the celestial leaves the vessel, it will have no memories (it is like a newborn), so nothing can be gained by it (it probably won't even know how to walk). In conclusion, even if you could animate the body, you would end up with a retarded zombi who you would have to teach to walk, balance etc. which would hardly make the effort worthwhile. Thanks, Leath. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Apr 1997 23:10:05 GMT From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: Re: IN> Principalities On Mon, 7 Apr 1997 16:53:08 +1000 (EST), Peter Frederick wrote: >nice work, well thought out, creative and capable of prompting some >interesting and thoughtful roleplaying. But I don't like them and wouldn't >use them even if they were cannon. With your indulgence I will explain. In Nomine is very open to interpretation--one of its strong points. I believe what I suggested was consistent with canon, but we won't really know until the supplements start coming out. >The start of the idea seemed to be an extrapolation of the role of the >Celestial Seneschals, which I found to be flawed. The Seneschals are not >interested in the Corporeal Plane, they have no interest in buildings, >waterfalls, parks, gardens, churches or sacred groves. You might want to re-read the Tethers sidebar on page 59. >Also I think it is a mistake to see Seneschals as taking the job as part of >a progress towards something bigger. In the case of Angels at least I find >it hard to be comfortable with such rampant ambition, indeed I feel that >those more likely to rise in the Divine ranks are those who seek to further >God's Plan through devotion to a Word rather than looking to push something >they identify as their own self interest. Jordi and Jean (and others) are listed as hostile to each other; Dominic is the inquisitor in charge of rooting out *heavenly* heresy. Try reading Gabriel's and Micheal's descriptions. Heaven is not all sweetness and light, canonically at least. >It also seemed odd to me that (to take the easier side of the argument) a >Divine Celestial Agent would be more interested in one human over another >because of where they were born or where they live. However, effects have ranges. An angel can only act in a limited area at a time. Also, Tethers are (as far as is said) stationary. And as a practical matter, it is convenient for GMs to wok in one area. >There is an existing mechanism for a Divine Celestial Agent who is >interested in humans because of the mundane differences between them, >including nationality, Saints. Could you give me a page reference for this, please? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 09:28:45 GMT+10 From: "Leathal Weapon" <938269@wrpc.riv.csu.edu.au> Subject: Re: IN> Marc and "Trade" In reply to: > Basically, I guess I'm trying to figure out how much control Marc > actually has over his Word right now - very little, it seems! To say > that humans are flummoxing his "Word" is one thing (and true, very > true), but he IS the Archangel, and I doubt that the Big Boss in the Sky > is going to look kindly on an Archangel who loses control of his own > Word. To what extent have the Demon Princes been able to subvert Marc, > and I think the point is that no where in the book does it say that Archangels are out to 'control' their Word. They are assigned a Word and are supposed to further it! If they can get humans to take up their Word with such fervour that they can reduce the work they have to do, then so much the better. Of course, every Archangel is going to want some control, and I'm willing to bet that Marc has his fingers in a lot of companies, but he doesn't have to absolutely control the Word. Look at Eli, Creation's running great! It's given him the time to just head down to Earth and do whatever he wants! An Archangel must protect their Word, but if it's reached the stage where the level of protection required is minimal, then you have half your job done for you. > The portrayal of him in the book - seemingly a > happy, mildly busy Archangel with enough time to look snappy and impress > most of the other Archangels - seems, well, dissonant, seeing the sheer > level of threat that is being made to his Word. Either Marc's got a LOT > more on his mind than his book portrayal would imply, or else he's > risking incompetence and in danger of losing his word (both of which > would make fun RP!) I think that you're making the mistake of assuming that Angels (and Archangels) have to have 'good' causes. Now the company may make widgets by paying their workers terribly, but that's beside the point. Marc's Word is Trade, not Employee Benefits. And the exact value of a dollar is beside the point. As long as it's worth something, Trade continues. I would hazard to say that the last time Marc had real problems with Trade were during the depressions, where no one could afford anything, or during times of great inflation, where barrow-loads of money were required to buy a loaf of bread. Michael's Word is War, and Laurence's is the Sword (very abstract, but I'll worry about that later), but the moral implications of this don't seem to be bothering you? > > What I'm trying to get at is that "Trade" and money are not the same > thing - money is but the abstraction that allows people to turn their > work into a living, in a society where the means of production is no > longer in the hands of those who know how to produce! Money and Trade are not the same thing, but Trade has evolved to a point were the primary good to be traded for is money, therefore the two are linked. > Of course, this is getting all down to viewpoints. Obviously, I would > play Marc much differently than he is presented in the book - my main > beef is that he shouldn't be very calm and collected right now, since > his Word isn't exactly on the rise... World Trade is ever increasing, so of course his Word is on the rise. I see your point, but do not agree with it. The point about Marc being calm and collected, well if he is the ultimate business man, he isn't going to let silly emotions which could jeapordise future dealings with others get in the way of a good deal, is he? Leath. (all this is IMO, and is not intended to be a flame, so don't think I'm attacking you). ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 19:22:33 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Marc and "Trade" (LONG!) > Basically, I guess I'm trying to figure out how much control Marc > actually has over his Word right now - very little, it seems! To say > that humans are flummoxing his "Word" is one thing (and true, very > true), but he IS the Archangel, and I doubt that the Big Boss in the Sky > is going to look kindly on an Archangel who loses control of his own > Word. To what extent have the Demon Princes been able to subvert Marc, > and For every rotten, cheating deal out there, there are many, many honest and mutually agreeable purchases and trades. The vast quantity of business _is_ honest, but only the ugly side shows up in the newspapers. How often do you see headlines like, "Man buys toaster and it works fine!" Not often, eh? =) > So in your above example, we may need to determine HOW Company B an make > $10 Widgets - is it a natural advantage of location (in terms of natural > resources, the skills of the manufacturer, etc) or is it because they > pay their workers terribly or take advantage of them? That example was _solely_ to describe how a 500% profit margin can be equitable and agreeable. If you want to bring other issues into it, make a new point, don't drag the old point into places it wasn't meant to go. Can a 500% profit be fair? I say yes. Counter-argument? None. How the workers are treated is a _totally_ separate issue. An moral manager or president has to juggle such factors, of course (as would all of Marc's minions). One of Marc's people could hardly justify running a sweat shop without Marc coming down on them pretty hard! (An employee and employer have made a deal, just like the business and customer have. The deal is, in most cases, "you pay me a fair wage for my labors and I'll work for you".) > The portrayal of him in the book - seemingly a > happy, mildly busy Archangel with enough time to look snappy and impress > most of the other Archangels - seems, well, dissonant, seeing the sheer > level of threat that is being made to his Word. Either Marc's got a LOT > more on his mind than his book portrayal would imply, or else he's > risking incompetence and in danger of losing his word (both of which > would make fun RP!) No archangel is going out of their way to look haggard and harried! =) Substance is different from appearances at times. It's kinda hard to put all the plans and goals of a supremely busy and powerful being into two pages (with art). I picture Marc as a cool and competent business manager that is used to having disasters, both minor and major, coming up on a daily basis. He's used to it. Hell, he might live for that rush, as I've heard stock-traders do. If the volume of unfair trades was over that of fair trades, the world would be a much, much sorrier place than it is. > > What I'm trying to get at is that "Trade" and money are not the same > thing - money is but the abstraction that allows people to turn their > work into a living, in a society where the means of production is no > longer in the hands of those who know how to produce! When everyone can > grow their own food and take care of themselves and their own property, > money is useless and barter is the acceptable norm. The connection > between money and trade is only one of convenience, and not necessarily > one that promotes the Angels' cause. "Love of Money is the root of all > evil" the proverb goes, and promoting currency seems rather dangerous if > other Archangels, like Dominic, begin to see Marc losing control of his > Word to the demons. That Marc has few real enemies in Heaven (only David > and Blandine hate him) strikes me as odd, given the current status of > the Symphony. It so, so easy to take one thing and blame it for everything. In this case, money. You could as easily point the finger at technology, or western civilization or beams from outer space. Truth is, there are good people and bad and money is just one more tool of power. Some people do good with it and some do evil. Marc is trying to get everyone to play nice. He probably has crack squads of accountants and undercover guys out there unearthing the crooked and evil while murdering them in the marketplace. > Currency and money can actually be a barrier to fair trade! It devalues > the hard work and dedication that a honest exchange often involve. > Example - A monopolizing company can spread its profits to buy services > that actually restrict "Trade" - having local officials (and slick > lawyers) in one's pockets is a barrier to a fair exchange of services. > And yes, this is NOT Marc's doing, but a combination of human free will > and a little demonic influence here and there - but this DOES directly > affect Marc's word. Instead of being a pleasant little diplomat, he > ought to be fighting mad, or having an immense Celestial Migraine right > now - and he ought to be fighting Valefor and Nybbas with a vengeance > that we thought only Michael can muster... Who says he isn't mad? Who says that he isn't taking action? > Of course, this is getting all down to viewpoints. Obviously, I would > play Marc much differently than he is presented in the book - my main > beef is that he shouldn't be very calm and collected right now, since > his Word isn't exactly on the rise... Being upset and twitchy ain't going to help matters. In fact, a calm front is probaby the _best_ thing he could do. > Don't forget that not all the Archangels LIKE society as it currently > is. Novalis would definitely be breathing down Marc's neck if that sort > of thing wasn't against her nature. Dominic ought to be somewhat miffed > with Marc, too, since money and justice are becoming more and more > antagonistic. I only feel that Marc is not as "In control" as he is > portrayed to be, and his servitor attunements and rites reflect a > confidence that he shouldn't be having right now, barring a BIG deux es > machina from the Big Boss. You're assuming that making money and nature are necessarily antagonistic. They aren't, though it might seem that way to some. When people think 'money' they either think of that green stuff (or blue or pink or red) or huge corporations. Nope. Money could be me nailing that table for my pal and he giving me that extra radio of his. Honest trade. People getting along. Society in action. No man is an island and all that. > > the same thing with money. If his corporations do well, he > > has supported the word and the symphony (by encouraging honest > > trade) and has furthered his own plans by strengthening his > > position for the _next_ battle with the forces of darkness. > > Can you name some corporations that you would classify as Marc's? Maybe > Ben and Jerry's? Nope. Frankly, I don't _like_ Ben and Jerry's for reasons that are irrelevant to this discussion. But I bet that if you looked at most businesses down any average yellow pages and ask yourself, "Are these people cheating others, or are they supporting society?", for most of them you could honestly say, "yeah, they're doing their bit to keep things running without resorting to theft and robbery". > > > > 4) Is the "divine fortune" composed strictly of Essence? > > > > Nope. > > What is it then? Are we also considering corporeal treasure, like the > Vatican collections? Also relics and reliquaries? It's a kind of a vague statement. I took it to meant that _anything_ that Marc is in charge of is the 'divine fortune'. Essence, yes, because he can be trusted and everything always comes out even. But also other, more mundane things, that the other Archangels don't have the trained manpower or interest in maintaining. Each of the Archangels has something they are best at, most efficient at, and Marc handles the finances. > > These aren't necessarily _good_ things, per se, these > > are things that will attract Marc's attention! > > That makes sense - but if you're summoning your Archangel, wouldn't you > rather be doing something that he really likes, unless you were in a > bind and wanted him to come out fighting, so to speak? Heh, heh. Don't forget that the summoning angel didn't have to _cause_ the thing to be, he just had to find it somewhere. > > BTW, a 'favor' is a trade of sorts. 'You do something > > for me later in return for something now'. I think you meant > > that a dollar for nothing was a 'gift'. > > You're right - excuse my faulty word choice. I STILL think that a dollar > given as a gift doesn't support trade - it's an act of generosity. > Unless, of course, good karma counts as some sort of Celestial currency > that Marc has dominion over (which would REALLY complicate this > discussion!) I'm leaning toward your point of view on this one. It struck me as odd the first time I read it and it still does. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | "A fundamental principle of economics is that the | | more you tax something, the less you get of it. | | In this country we tax success most of all." | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Apr 1997 17:39:10 -0700 From: Roger Carbol Subject: IN> IN: Other Sources Looking for some more In Nomine ideas? Look no further than the brochures of your friendly neighbourhood Jehovah's Witnesses. They are more than happy to expound all sorts of ideas which could make one heck of a campaign, if not one heck of a way to run your Real Life. Advantages: Free, easily accessible, written at an easy-to-read level, many nice illustrations. Disadvantages: May require speaking with actual Jehovah's Witnesses. Please note that I'm not affiliated with the aforementioned religious group. If there are any Jehovah's Witnesses subscribed to this list, I'd be a little surprised, to say the least. Have fun. Roger Carbol .. rog@col.ca .. Satan-Resistant, Level 3 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Apr 1997 19:52:57 -0400 (EDT) From: gibsonc@nku.edu Subject: Re: IN> summaries i would like to see this done. its sounds like a much better idea than alot of those i keep reading about :) !!!! On Fri, 4 Apr 1997, The Incredibly Unremarkable Cliffy Q. Scrimshaw wrote: > > I have started to type up brief summaries of each choir's resonance & its > mechanics and started to work on the songs. I tentatively plan to have > one sheet for each Song, one for each superior (summary of servitor > attunements, choir attunements, rel. to other Arches, etc.), and the > one-page choir resonance sheet. > > Would SJ Games have a problem with me doing this and giving a sheet to the > players? I want to do this so I can staple my pregens to a sheet that > shows their Choir resonance, one for each of their Songs, and one for > their superior. This would make it easier for them (they'd know what they > can do) and easier for me (having a summary booklet and not needing to > loan the players my book whenever they want to use an ability). > > if there is no problem (I am trying to summarize, not copy parts of the > text), would anyone else like a copy when I get done? > > matt s. > > "Life is like a yo-yo: .-. > it has its ups and downs, __ __| | > plus a few loops now & then." \ V / (() > --Matt, a.k.a. CliffyQS@Earthling.net |_| > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 19:56:38 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Know the Enemy #3 Know The Enemy A comprehensive course for young demons, in determining the strengths and weaknesses of The Enemy. - --------------------------------------------------------------------- - --------------------------------------------------------------------- #3: As delivered by a Servitor of the War Choirs ====== Seraphim: Potentially formidible in celestial form, usually weak in corporeal ones. Cherubim: Formidible in corporeal form, average in celestial combat. Ofanim: A nuisance to deal with -- they are frequently good at avoiding getting hit. Elohim: Celestial potential is high; corporeal is average to low. Malakim: Some specialize in corporeal or celestial combat. Some do not. Occasionally worthwhile opponents. Kyriotates: Often vicious but slow in celestial combat; cowards in corporeal forms. They would rather stand back and use Songs. Mercurians: Potential threats to demons, but damaging mortals is bad for them. Use cannon-fodder. Servitors of... =============== Blandine: Wimps, hardly worth the effort. David: Stronger than many, and sometimes dangerous. They tend to accumulate groups of humans. Dominic: Unconcerned with external affairs, they can sometimes be ignored for a time. (Though always watch your back with an angel around.) If they are sniffing around someone, send a Lilim to see if there is a potential convert to be salvaged. Eli: His Malakim are worthy of respect, but otherwise the Servitors of Creation should require little time. Gabriel: Fanatics who react in fairly predictable ways. Use this to your advantage; human bait works well. Janus: Moving targets, but they never require a siege to defeat. Jean: Will only cause problems if you are encouraging a demonically-inspired weapon. Are otherwise too wrapped up in their own concerns to pose any real threat. Kyrios of Jean and machinery, however, do not mix well. Jordi: Kick dogs. Carry a gun for the wolves. Laurence: Idealistic and overworked. But take them down *before* sneering. Marc: Civilians. Hardly worth the bother. Michael: Formidiable most of the time, but do not "work and play well in groups." Their disorganization and self-reliance make them annoying, but ultimately only pests. Novalis: Hit hard first, pick the splinters out afterwards. Yves: Can be surprisingly hard targets. Take them out when it's convenient to do so, but don't let them fester around the area. - --------------------------------------------------------------------- - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 19:54:55 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Know The Enemy #2 Know The Enemy A comprehensive course for young demons, in determining the strengths and weaknesses of The Enemy. - --------------------------------------------------------------------- #2: As delivered by a Servitor of the Game Choirs ====== Seraphim: Amusing abilities. Use their reactions as a guide if they are dealing with a Suspect. Avoid dealing with them, as their reactions towards you can be equally un-guarded. Cherubim: Usually useless, but rarely dangerous to one's cover. Ofanim: Flighty, but easy to spot and avoid. Do not engage in car chases with them. Their resonance is otherwise harmless. Elohim: Less-useful than Seraphim, but their reactions can still provide clues if they deal with a Suspect. Do not deal with them, as they can also garner clues from you. Are the most likely to offer help to a Suspect, unfortunately. Malakim: Can be used as front-line troops to take care of a Suspect, but will be equally-dangerous to you if they sense your nature. Kyriotates: Annoying spies. Do not keep pets. Mercurians: Practically useless most of the time, but can sometimes be a threat to your cover, more than to that of the Suspect. Servitors of... =============== Blandine: Unimportant. David: Nuisances. Dominic: Can sometimes be persuaded that your goals and theirs are aligned. Be wary; Servitors of Judgment often come in threes, usually with a Seraph amongst them. Eli: Gather information on their activities if it does not interfere; Dominic's Servitors will be interested, and it makes good bait. Gabriel: Fanatics and unreasonable. Can sometimes be used as general Malakim , but are usually not worth the effort. Janus: Do not deal with these Servitors. They are under suspicion. Jean, Jordi: Unimportant. Laurence: Unreasonable. Best set upon a Suspect from a distance. Marc: Unimportant. Michael: Unreasonable. Treat as for the Sword, but with greater care, as the angelic Servitors of War are more cunning. Novalis: An impediment. They will stand in your way if the Suspect asks them for help. They are very unreasonable about this, but you can usually deal with them if your first strike is powerful enough. Do not hold back; after the first blow, they won't either. Yves: Unimportant to unreasonable to impediment, depending on the Suspect in question. Keep the Suspect from coming into contact with these Servitors. - --------------------------------------------------------------------- - --------------------------------------------------------------------- #1: As delivered by a Servitor of Lust (probably a Balseraph) [Errata:] Choirs ====== Kyriotates: Really kinky. You can supply the dogs. Or swans. Or whatever. A great way to get an orgy with one person... Servitors of... =============== Janus: Here today, gone tomorrow. Often fun, till you realize that you just can't make an *impression* with these people! Will also pick your pockets, so don't wear anything. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 19:47:32 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> In Nomine Gargoyles... In Nomine Gargoyles [Okay, I'm in a strange mood today...] Disclaimer: This in *NO WAY* is intended to threaten the copyrights and/or trademarks held by Disney and/or Buena Vista on the Gargoyles characters, concepts, cartoons, or merchandise. It is posted in a spirit of respect and admiration (for the 1st and 2nd seasons, at least), with the desire to advertise this quite cool cartoon show and get people to buy the Disney tapes of the 1st season. I have no permission to do this, and all the Gargoyle characters mentioned are property of Disney and/or Buena Vista (using the correct spelling if I mangled it). All the In Nomine characters are SJG's, of course. **** **** **** Most celestials, upon seeing the strange stone-by-day, alive-by-night creatures popularly known as "Gargoyles," would assume that they are some breed of Nephallim, more ethical than the usual sort, but still distorted children of the excommunicate Grigori. As such, angels are not supposed to associate with them, and demons find them annoying, but only minor nuisances -- after all, they are mostly exterminated. There is some suggestion that they may actually be creations of Ethereal spirits who simply lucked out during the "Purification" that destroyed the dragons and other creatures of myth. That they were lucky during Uriel's little crusade is indisputable, but they are not -- or not entirely -- creatures of the Ethereal gods nor kin to the exiled Watchers. They are the forgotten Children of Stone. Long ago, when the Fall was still recent in the minds of celestials, the angels of Stone found an unguarded, un-noticed Hell-tether. An army of David's finest -- mostly Malakim -- planned, trained, and finally executed a direct assault, meant to take down many of the new and presumably slightly confused Demon Princes, or perhaps even Lucifer himself. Full of the sort of vain-glory that Dominic would later seek to eradicate, the Finest of Stone told no-one else of their plans. Unfortunately, through bad luck, cunning entrapment, or even, somehow, betrayal from one of their own... the assault led the angels of Stone into a trap. They were slaughtered, so overwhelmed that the demons didn't even bother entirely killing most of them -- instead, Force-stripped angels were tossed out, adding mortal insult to mortal injuries. Those who had been crippled in Corporeal or Ethereal Forces made their way back to David's Cathedral. The Remnants of the army mostly lay where they had appeared, or wandered about aimlessly, kept near their comrades by the vague memories of protection and mutual loyalty. And so it was that David, in his grief, came upon them at the setting of the sun and Did Something. To this day, it's not clear *what* actually happened. Perhaps he sought to rebuild their shattered souls himself, perhaps he enlisted the aid of Creation, perhaps he sought help from the Ethereal gods. Perhaps he dealt with a Grigori. Perhaps a Demon Princess found him sorrowing in the midst of his crippled angels and spoke to him of bargains...or a Prince spied upon him and saw an opportunity for a little joke. David does not speak of this time, even to those who remember the failed assault. The celestial nature of these remnants was gone; there would be no way to heal them to what they were. At best, they might be re-created as young angels or relievers, scarred by battles they no longer recalled. It might have been more merciful to destroy their vessels and allow their tattered Forces to return to the Symphony, but David's Malakite honor and sense of duty to his stricken servitors would not allow this without one, last try... The try was not entirely successful. David had hoped to somehow infuse these remnants with mortal souls, that they might be restored to him and the Symphony as Soldiers or Saints or even just good men who might one day be cleansed of their suffering in the upper Heavens. Instead, he wound up with a new breed of un-human monsters -- with the hearts of Malakim. Though looking like the most twisted of demons, these new creatures treated honor as their life's blood, and sought to protect as they sought breath. Though David was on unstable moral ground, having created a new sort of life, he was now even less able to take the choice of "mercy" to these new beings. They lived, they breathed, and though their memories of their past existance were almost entirely gone, they were still honorable creatures, still dedicated to the word of Stone. Perhaps he panicked slightly, perhaps it was merely yet another side effect of whatever had created them. But when the sun rose again, David was surrounded by baroque and monsterous statues, and not the noble-hearted living things that he had created. But that night, he watched these new beings break free and live again; and he saw that sometime during the day, they had regained Essence -- either at sunrise, as angels do, or mid-day, as humans do. So whatever they were, they were not demonic, nor creatures of the Ethereal plane. Uncertainly, sure he was making a mistake and equally sure that he could not just abandon these who had once been created by him from the Symphony, David instructed them "to protect." He told them that the soft, weak humans would require loyal protectors and noble examples -- and this would be their purpose in life. These Children of Stone agreed, filling the confused emptiness within their souls. And thus were born Gargoyles... Gargoyles are commonly built on *8* Forces, usually in the pattern of 4 Corporeal, 2 Ethereal and 2 Celestial. Some exceptional individuals have been known to achieve *two* extra Forces -- usually Corporeal. A few (usually young or very weak) are as low as 5 forces. Their attribute maximums are angelic (12), not human (10). However, they are not celestials -- they are mortal, with mortal souls that can descend Hell-wards, rise to Heaven, linger as ghosts, reincarnate, or disintegrate into the glory of the Symphony. They do not spend Essence deliberately, but "all at once" as humans do. The sole evidence of their heritage is their dual nature -- during the day, they are frozen into stone statues, un-moving, unaware, dreaming stone dreams. At sundown, they come alive, bursting through a thin stone shell, healed of all but the most crippling injuries that they suffered the previous night. If shattered during the day, they remain gravel -- dead. It is not entirely clear whether they gain Essence at mid-day, as humans do, or at sunrise -- they're stone throughout that time... Presumably, possessing mortal souls, noon is the correct time for that Essence regeneration. All Gargoyles have the Discord (from human standpoints) of Discolored/1; to most humans, they are also Ugly (often at level 3 or worse!), though some have been known to look past the humanoid similarities and see the underlying alien patterns as merely "other," or even attractive. [This may just be some sort of Negative Charisma, physical -- which can be countered by postive Charisma, attitude!] All Gargoyles have the Ethereal Discords of Angry and Berserk, usually at the level of their Corporeal Forces, but sometimes lower. (Even at level 0, however, a Gargoyle will still require a Will roll to avoid turning a situation violent or stopping their own violence!) Some have the Celestial Discord of Murderous. A gargoyle under the influence of Angry or Berserk will show it in the eyes -- which flare brightly to observers (white for males, red for females). On the plus side, they're all very strong and generally manifest one or more physical features which are [astonishingly, for something not meant to go with IN] equivalent to various Numinous Corpus Songs -- the only commonality is that there is no commonality... Acid and Tongue are not known, but Claws are nearly universal, Wings only slightly less-so, Fangs (or a beak) are only rarely absent, and the same for Tail (usually not barbed, often used for striking). Horns are usually only vestigial, while Feet are only rarely hooves; more common are clawed and spurred feet -- few, if any, Gargoyles are not digigrade walkers. (Though one had no feet whatsoever, and slithered...) Unfortunately, few, if any, have Wings that will really fly; instead, they can only glide on updrafts or thermals, though they are good enough at it to provide an illusion of true flight! They are also much tougher than the usual mortal, with Protection from natural armor equal to Corporeal Forces. Few actually have the skill of Climbing at any level -- primarily, they use their Claws (and Feet) to dig into cliff-sides or buildings and move upwards slowly, leaving behind great gouges. They are *murder* on buildings... While they do not gain dissonance in the way of the Servitors of David, the Children of Stone do seem to retain some of that nature: they prefer to defend rather than attack, and while they *can* use ranged weapons, those who deign to try are usually really, *really* lousy shots with them. Also befitting the Malakim nature that most of their remnant ancestors possessed, they are obsessed with honor and clan -- while a few have gone against their clan-families, or lied or cheated, it is difficult for them to rationalize it. And a gargoyle must have a protectorate, or he (or she) will feel incomplete. Examples... (Flight is an Agility skill) Goliath, Gargoyle leader from the cartoon show Forces: 9 Corporeal: 5 Strength 10, Agility 10 Ethereal: 2 Intelligence 4, Precision 4 Celestial: 2 Will 5*, Perception 4 (*Additional attribute due to experience) Vessel/5 (as per human levels), Charisma +2 (voice and bearing) Discords: Discolored/1 (lavender), Ugly/1, Angry/2, Berserk/1 Numinous Corpus: Wings, Claws, Tail, Fangs, Feet (spurs). Skills: Acrobatics/1, Detect Lies/1, Dodge/1, Fighting (Corporeal)/4, Flight/3, Knowledge (Area: New York City)/2, Knowledge (Area: Castle Wyvern)/2, Knowledge (Geography)/1, Knowledge (Gargoyle Politics and Culture)/3, Move Silently/1, Running/3, Survival (forest)/1, Swimming/1, Tactics/5, Throwing (usually cars)/1, Tracking/2. Lexington, computer expert from the cartoon show Forces: 8 Corporeal: 3 Strength 6, Agility 6 Ethereal: 3 Intelligence 7, Precision 5 Celestial: 2 Will 4, Perception 4 Vessel/3 Discords: Discolored/1 (green-brown), Ugly/2, Angry/2, Berserk/2 Numinous Corpus: Wings ("flying-squirrel" style; cannot use hands much while flying), Claws, Tail, Fangs, Feet (spurs) Skills: Acrobatics/2, Computer Operations/5, Dodge/1, Electronics/3, Engineering/3, Fighting (Corporeal)/3, Flight/2, Knowledge (Area: New York City)/2, Knowledge (Area: Castle Wyvern)/2, Move Silently/3, Running/3, Survival (forest)/1, Swimming/1, Tactics/1, Throwing/1, Tracking/1 Demona, insane immortal Gargoyle from the cartoon... Forces: 8 Corporeal: 4 Strength 7, Agility 9 Ethereal: 2 Intelligence 4, Precision 4 Celestial: 2 Will 5, Perception 3 Vessel/4, Charisma +1 (voice) Discords: Discolored (blue), Ugly/1, Angry/5, Berserk/4, *Geas/6 (Weird Sisters: future favors, unknown to Demona), Paranoia/1, Murderous/2 Numinous Corpus: Wings, Claws, Tail, Fangs, Feet (spurs). Skills: [A *lot* -- she's been kicking around for about 1,000 years, due to intervention from Ethereal spirits... Who hit her with a Geas* in the second season. She's also sworn an oath to destroy humanity, which she takes quite seriously, but that may just be her twisted Malakite nature.] Rare among Gargoyles, Demona has picked up the skill of Ranged Weapon (Blaster) -- she is not very good at it, but makes up for this with autofire. She also has Large Weapon (mace) at some decent level. [*The Geas is gone by the end of the second season, but Demona, twisted with guilt for the accidental killing of her clan, is still a loon -- and still immortal...] Bronx, quasi-sentient gargoyle "dog" ("dogoyle"...) from the cartoon Forces: 7 Corporeal: 4 Strength 10, Agility 6 Ethereal: 1 Intelligence 1, Precision 3 Celestial: 2 Will 3, Perception 5 Vessel/4 Discords: Discolored/1 (blue), Ugly/4, Angry/4, Berserk/3, horizontal and semi-sentient, with no opposable thumbs. Numinous Corpus: Claws, Fangs, Feet (clawed, usually only used when climbing buildings) Skills: Acrobatics/1, Dodge/2, Emote/3 (main form of communication), Fighting/3, Knowledge (Area: New York City)/2, Knowledge (Area: Castle Wyvern)/2, Move Silently/2, Running/6, Survival (forest)/2, Swimming/2, Tracking/6. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #108 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1996 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.