From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Apr 21 14:23:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by deliverator.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA25624; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 13:54:12 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA13813 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 12:44:08 -0500 Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 12:44:08 -0500 Message-Id: <199704211744.MAA13813@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #130 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, April 21 1997 Volume 01 : Number 130 In this digest: Re: IN> In Nomine problems IN> PBEMs Re: IN> Know Your Diabolicals #2, #5, #8, #11, #13 Re: IN> Bodhi's Heart-Breakers Re: IN> Will Roll Clarification Needed Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #123 Re: IN> Long Adventure idea: Satanic Ritual Abuse Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #128 Re: IN> Roles, Mercurian, Elohim Dissonance Re: IN> Roles, Mercurian, Elohim Dissonance Re: IN> Mortal Roles and Celestial Vessels Re: IN> Jordi's Choir Attunements Re: IN> Jordi's Choir Attunements Re: IN> In Nomine problems IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #129 IN> Angels Pushaw Re: IN> In Nomine problems ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 11:02:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Gregory Littmann Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine problems On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, Mark Grundy wrote: > > * support for playing beautiful stories about moral choices, the > grandeur and wonder of the world as it `really is'. > * diabolical plots, cunning betrayals and hidden hands. > * support for my players to explore what makes celestials tick. These are all things that the G.M. is going to have to add. I suspect that SJG, through its production of GURPS, has gotten used to providing players with tools without much guidance for their application. I think that In Nomine has a *great* set of tools for producing adventures just such as these - but it leaves a lot of the applicatino work to you. > > Has anyone else had these kinds of comments from IN players? > > * ``It feels like superheroes, only more constrictive.'' If its feels like superheroes, then I suspect that too much of the confrontation is direct combat between the good guys and the bad guys. Perhaps you could present players with moral problems as opposed to just puzzles or obstacles. For example - forces of Hell are coming to town. They are coming to collect the soul of a staggeringly evil individual who sold said soul for certain privilidges. Do the Angels try to break the contract and rescue the evil one? > * ``There are too many `clans'; too much politics to memorise.'' I think the politics is pretty central. Indeed, it is the presence of such politics, based on different moral perceptions, that prevents In Nomine from being just a super-hero game with new trappings. OTOH, if they don't like politics, you can always downplay it. You can even ignore it entirely and just use Archangels as sources of different powers, but here again, we get closer to Superman. > * ``The character classes are too complicated and obscure.'' The choirs are certainly different from those in most games. And so they should be, as it gives In Nomine flavour. I can't think of a way to deal with this other than let everyone start out as being from the same quoir and introduce new ones slowly. > * ``The game system is too complicated.'' I haven't found it so, but its subjective. The only advice I can give here is to ignore rules that you don't like. Let the players roll the dice and if the roll looks about right, give them a favorable result. > * ``I'm still not sure what it is that motivates a celestial.'' Yes. That this is not gone into in depth is a major flaw in the game as it is written. I would say that for Angels, the commmon thread is a wish to do what is "right". Whether this impulse manifests inself in compassion or a thirst for bloody justice could differ from Angel to Angel, just us it differs from human to human. > * ``Pendragon gives you better mechanics to support moral issues.'' Personally, I don't like mechanics supporting moral issues. Moral choice is better role-played through. Put the characters in a difficult situation and make the players *decide* what to do. Shall they save 10 good people from death, or try to rescue the soul of a sinner? Hm... > * ``Are all the plots going to be just more clan conflicts?'' The plots can be whatever you want. You can even leave other Celestials out of it. How about plopping the characters in a ghetto somewhere with dreadful poverty and crime. How will they make life better for the inhabitants? Ruling through fear will only take them so far - and maybe not in the right direction. > * ``How come there are so many special cases for simple rules?'' You got me there. > * ``Do we have to memorise all these dissonance and attunement rules?'' No but the G.M. does. > * ``Why do characters take so long to generate?'' Any complex personality will take time to generate. In Nomine does not shepard you along in certain directions - but the pay off is that you have a lot of flexability to create the character you want rather than being forced into certain pigeon-holes by the system. > * ``Why should a celestial care which city he's in, or who he meets?'' Because the cities will have distinct problems, as will the people. > * ``Do devils really have to go around parking badly?'' Some do, but not all should. The *most* effective devils are probably *very* careful to make their public behaviour seem impecable. You catch more flies with honey after all... > * ``Why should the angels and demons hate each other?'' Fair question. I suppose that it must come down to either loyalty to God (some are for Him and others against Him) or love of humanity (Angels want them to prosper, devils want them to suffer). > > My players had already done some experiments with `angels and devils' games > before In Nomine came out, and they're very keen on morality games, having > had many years experience in a morality-ridden Pendragon campaign. Even > allowing > that some of the above are just teething comments, I still think that the > game isn't working for us. I'd like to see what I can do to improve matters. > > So, here are some questions: > > * What's the use of mechanics for `essence', `dissonance' and `discord'? How > do these improve the quality of play? Couldn't you just have discretionary > rewards and punishments from your superiors/the universe whenever the GM > sees > fit? Yes. The mechanics try to reflect the fact that the Angels are going against their own nature, rather than just offending their superior. If you don't like them, and would rather have the superior enforce things, I don't see why that wouldn't work. Indeed, it could heighten the ability of the characters to make moral choices if their nature alone doesn't dictate how they should handle things. > Why not just have celestials use Songs/discorporate etc... as often as > they > want? (Has anyone tried this? How well did it work?) Well, it *could* work, but you will be raising the power level of your game an awful lot. Which is fine if that is what you want. The question seems a bit like asking 'why not give characters twice as many points in everything?'. The answer is just 'that's not the power level that was originally conceived'. > > * The players have suggested a game where angels and demons play a much less > violent conflict against each other. Where they may actually like each > other, > due to pre-Fall history, but are duty bound to conflict at times. They > argue > that it would make the play less caricatured. Does anyone else run such a > game? Yes indeed and it seemed to work very well. I ran an Angels / Devils game using GURPS rules - the background can be found at http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/races/angels/ If you have a look at it and have any thoughts, I would love to hear from you. There is, of course, no reason why you couldn't run an In Nomine game where friendships cross the lines of divinity/infernality. However, in such a case you will have to explain to your players why the Angels and Devils bother fighting. After all, it is hard to war with your friends, or to have friends that you believe are the embodiment of all that you dislike. I got around this in *my* Angels/Devils game mainly by allowing that one Angel's "good" could be one Devil's "evil". For instance, a particular Devil might think themself doing diabolical service by encouraging the slaughter of Muslims by intollerant Christians. A particular Angel might disagree - thinking it to be a moral act to encourage such persecution. So the two could get along, even if each thought the other weird. > > * There do seem to be a lot to memorise before you can play this > game. I've noticed too, that most of the traffic on this list in past weeks > has been about politics and mechanics. Why is it so complicated? How could > I make it easier for players to get into the game? Start the players off with human characters or Start the players off with angels all under the same Archangel or Keep the characters ignorant for a while of who the factions are - or even that there *are* factions of the *other* side. Humans and or new celestials could be easily used as ill-informed foot-soldiers, just while the players get a feel for things. Hades, you don't even *need* to involve other celestials for a while. Just give the P.C.s characters and let them cope with human evil for a while. There are plenty of bad things going on that aren't *directly* linked to diabolical influence. > > * What are the long-term aspirations of characters in your game? The sense > I got from the book is that they are all doing revenge or > self-agrandisement. That's a shame. The overwhelming common desire should just be to do the right (wrong) thing. Celestials are essentially creatures who give a damn about other people. > Is there a place for celestials to love people, places, and things of the > mundane world? Sure! Why not! It makes them far more interesting if they do have such desires - especially when divine and mundane desires pull them in too different ways. Room here for some great moral conflicts - you can save the woman you love *or* save a strategic Tether. > Can they have desires that are not really part of the War at > all? Has anyone tried this? With what results? It seemed to work fine! > > * Do the demons have to be so psychotic? It makes them very hard to play > credibly, and makes them hard to support as long-term PCs. Demons don't have to be involved in random acts of destruction, but they *do* need to be consumed by the desire to do evil. In Nomine is about the war between good and evil after all. Like the Angels - they can care about things that aren't in their job description. Hell, they could even fall in love as far as I care. But there has to be *some* reason why they decided to fall and why they remain in Hell's employ. > > * In our last game the mechanics kept getting in the way of the story needs. > (Too > many Perception rolls, and far too many Will rolls.) I got so frustrated > that > I thought about abandoning In Nomine, and working up a version using the > Feng Shui system instead. Before doing this, I thought I'd ask: does anyone > have any working simplifications already in place? Not really - but I always ignore Gotta go - system reboot! > > I'm not sending this mail to pick on the players who like In Nomine; I did > want the chance to complain though, because I am very disappointed in how > the game has played so far. I'm also hoping to pick up any advice that > could improve the game for my players. I'd be very grateful for thoughts or > tips from experienced In Nomine GMs. > > Thanks, > > Mark > > -- > Dr Mark Grundy, DCS, Phone: +61-6-249 3785 > Education Co-ordinator, Fax: +61-6-249 0010 > CRC for Advanced Computational Systems, > The Australian National University, Web: http://cs.anu.edu.au/~Mark.Grun > dy > 0200 Australia Email: Mark.Grundy@anu.edu.au > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 11:17:53 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> PBEMs At 2:57 AM -0400 4/19/97, C. J. Hunter wrote: >I had entertained the notion of In Nomine by e-mail, but I have absolutely >no experience with PBEM and no idea where to begin. Any input? #1: it takes forever and a day. #2: check out http://www.io.com/~wileyc/nomine/ for some examples of a game by PBEM. The web-page summeries are nice (VERY!), but not mandatory. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 11:20:16 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Know Your Diabolicals #2, #5, #8, #11, #13 At 6:26 PM -0500 4/18/97, tom timberlake wrote: >AA Beth: good work, once again, but you should know...Vapula erased any >mention of him and his from the email you sent. you may need help from a >Servitor of Jean to make sure that part of your KtEs get through, maybe >even riding shotgun to it on the 'net. I'll work on the errata to that one... Ought to have it when I get the Creation view on things put up. Thanks. I hadn't been aware that Vapula'd been infiltrating. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 11:25:04 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Bodhi's Heart-Breakers At 7:46 AM +1100 4/19/97, Patrick O'Duffy wrote: >Bodhi wrote: [...] > First off, I applaud the idea of these two celestials - solid, >intelligent word-concepts, removed from the action-adventure standard. >A lot more intriguing than most of the other 'doomed-love-affair' ideas >I've seen. > Admittedly, I'm dubious about the Elohim. They aren't meant to feel >_anything_, from what I understand, not just deny the thiings they do >feel. They certainly shouldn't betray any emotion, which could make >being one's lover rather frustrating... I'm not sure that they're not meant to *feel*, merely that they're not meant to *act* based on emotion rather than logic. This can make them very subtle to play. (I also call them celestial Vulcans...) They can have lovers (the plumbing probably works okay in corporeal form, if it's allowable in the view of the greater Good to permit a bit of physical passion to have its effect; and plumbing isn't everything anyway! Just ask the Elohim of Creation!), they can fall in love. But they cannot *act* on that by whim -- even the purest, most Heaven-bound of celestial relationship (as in, started with both in celestial form, bumming around Heaven) must be considered as part of the greater whole. And if you're on opposite sides, the relationship will have no effect, no "look the other way," no "spare the enemy," no hesitation. You do what you have to. And you mourn afterwards. It's not personal, your actions (it never is, with Elohim), but it's a strain. It's difficult and dangerous for Elohim to love, yes, but not impossible, as I see them. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 11:31:26 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Will Roll Clarification Needed At 9:21 PM +0000 4/18/97, Walt Mazur wrote: >On Fri, 18 Apr 1997 08:55:51 -0400, "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" > wrote: > >>> Often a will roll is used as a defense. This does not take an action. >>> >>> Since the will roll is essentially involuntary, can essence be added >>> to boost the roll? >> >> Yep. > >What about the case where the will roll is as a defense for a sensing >Attunement or Resonance that uses no essence and causes no >disturbance? In these cases, the Celestial seemingly has no chance to >perceive the act, but even letting a PC make the will roll gives away >that something has happened. For example, a Seraphim of Yves might be >a lookout for demons using his choir attunement, but the Seraphim is >given away if the demon makes the will roll himself and is given a >chance to spend essence to defeat the perception. You don't get a chance to defeat Perception-based resonances, IIRC. You get a chance to do so with Will-based ones. (So you can't stop a Lilim from reading your Need in your eyes (unless you don't look at her), but you *can* spend Essence when she tries to lay the Geas on you. You can't stop a Seraph from reading the Truth (except by saying nothing), but you *can* contest a Balseraph's attempt to foist his own personal truth on you. You can't stop Elohim (or Habbalah) from reading your emotions, but you *can* thrust a Habbalite's twisted emotions back on it. Etc.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 11:34:29 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #123 At 4:24 PM -0500 4/18/97, Jared P. Buntain wrote: >> At 10:53 PM -0500 4/17/97, RogueLdr wrote: >> Beth, Archangel of Borg... Prepare... > > Oh thats a good one. Though Demon Prince(ess) seems better... Maybe it's my flip-side... Though I'm not sure that my flipside is Shedite. (And, well, even in my Archangelic Role, I go around and find people's In Nomine (and GURPS) articles and characters, and either link to them or (with permission) schluck them over...) (Mmmmm! Gaming pages!) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 12:08:24 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Long Adventure idea: Satanic Ritual Abuse At 9:50 AM -0400 4/21/97, John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: > [Interesting story idea snipped] > > Two possible red-herrings (or, if the players read this >list, maybe one of these is the REAL truth and the rest are >the red-herrings!) > > 1. The abuse happened... in Beleth's realm. > 2. The psychologists/Shedim are deliberately >convincing people of the abuse. Maybe some direct mental >surgery involved here. #3: Shedim of Malphas are involved, driving away the tormenter's(') mind(s)... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Apr 97 12:13 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #128 >Speaking of GenCon, I'm going to be trying to make it this year (no >guarantees). Is anyone going to be putting on a game of In Nomine? If so, >I'd love to sign up! I doubt that anyone put in In Nomine games in the schedule, because the GM cutoff date was well before IN hit the stores. On the other hand, I suspect SJG will be running demo (if not demon...) games at least. Perhaps someone could organize a pickup game there. (Not me! I'm running 4 GURPS games already. Assuming they're accepted, which I expect....) - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 11:43:53 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Roles, Mercurian, Elohim Dissonance At 4:40 PM -0500 4/18/97, Grim88 wrote: >Ok, Mercurian Dissonace: Is self defense against a human dissonant? If you damage the human... Yep. Tough life. >Can Elohim show Emotion as long as they remain Objective? I'd say yes. But they must be, ahem, blessed sure that showing the emotion is Objectively the Good thing to do. If showing affection was what it took to save a mortal that they had to save, then they'd do it. If showing anger was the only way to get someone to do the Right thing, they'd do it. (Heck, they'd do it even if they *didn't* feel it.) Note that they will *know* (on good CDs) what the subject's reaction to a stated action will be -- this is probably a primary reason why Elohim occasionally *do* show emotion. Because it produces the Right reaction in the subject. >How would a Murcurain handle the lust Discord, and the Emote skill? A Mercurian? A Mercurian would seduce people happily... And Emote delightfully how much they desired the target. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 12:03:09 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Roles, Mercurian, Elohim Dissonance At 2:03 AM -0400 4/20/97, Calabim@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 97-04-18 21:02:51 EDT, Rob Wolff / Bodhi wrote: > ><< Elohim can show emotion, have emotion, cause emotion, and receive > emotion. They just can't act upon emotion. Their actions, and the > ways in which they choose to change the Symphony, must NOT be based > on emotion. Thus, by all means, show emotion! Just don't let that > emotion bias your judgement. >> >(and lots more of yet another awesome letter snipped) [...] >But now I have to ask at what point do you "act on emotion"? Say he's off >work and he see's an old lady take a nasty fall. He decides to help out. Is >that an act? is it based on an emotion? (Sympathy?) It could be, but it could also be that the Symphony demands a certain amount of "caring for others" (lest one become selfish). He goes to help (an act), not because of what he feels, but because it's Right. The old lady could be Mother Teresa, or the most foul-mouthed harridan on Earth who will harrange him and threaten to sue him, and he'll help either way. Because it's Right and angelic. >I would have to think that in his objective way, Artie cares about people, >*loves* them. Would you say this is dissonant, or no? Not. If one of these friends of his turned into a Mummy tomorrow, he would act against the demonic plots that friend was now forwarding. With pain in his heart, but clear of head. >Or...Artie's a pretty chaste guy, it goes with the Elohite bit. But say he >did get the hots for someone. I dunno, a really really objective, unbiased >lilim maybe. (Hey, the universe is BIG and the universe is STRANGE. So sue >me.) > >In an effort to dodge dissonance Artie would probably use his emote skill to >HIDE emotion. would this be dissonant? Hm. It depends -- if he knew that the relationship would be inappropriate (it would put a Lilim into a position where she could do damage, and he's not sure enough who holds her Geasa to trust her that far), then he might hide his interest as being tactically Wrong -- especially if his resonance picked up that she was interested too, since to "lead her on" might be painful to her (and/or encourage her to try to make him Fall into a Habbalite who could "love her back"). Frankly, one of the *saddest* setups I can think of is if an Elohite and Lilim got together and then the Lilim got hit with a Geasa that demanded she work against him. He would have to work against her, unabashedly, no holds barred, all information gleaned out of the relationship used against her. She'd have to do the same, or become dissonant. (And I don't know if Superiors can remove Geasa! Even if a Lilim went bright, she might *still* have to fulfill the Geas, or become Dissonant and Fall...) Both with agony in their souls, working against each other, maybe even to kill each other... Serious tragedy. On the other hand, a Lilim might understand the Duty that drives an Elohite (it's like being Geased to the Symphony's will) enough that, if they both survived, they could get back together. Maybe. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 12:25:47 -0400 (EDT) From: "Paul F. Strack" Subject: Re: IN> Mortal Roles and Celestial Vessels On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, Peter Frederick wrote: > Dear List > Does the Level of a Mortals Role have effect on the Game, via mechanics or > roleplaying? Mortals don't buy Levels for their Roles. They only buy Status. Status 1 is free, and each +1 Level costs 2 CP. > What does the Vessel Level of a Celestial's Vessel represent? How tough it is: Body hits = (Corporeal Forces + Vessel Level) * Strength ^^^^^^^^^^^^ Paul Strack | Madness takes its toll. pfstrack@math.unc.edu | Please have exact change. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ World of Darkness Page - http://www.math.unc.edu/Grads/pfstrack/wod.html In Nomine Page - http://www.math.unc.edu/Grads/pfstrack/innom/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 12:18:22 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Jordi's Choir Attunements At 10:00 AM -0400 4/21/97, John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: >On Apr 21, 10:04pm, Peter Frederick wrote: >> Subject: IN> Jordi's Choir Attunements >> Dear List >> >> A Servitor of Jordi, say a Malikim, sets some explosive charges on a bridge >> that is used by a logging company. He moves some distance away where he can >> still see the bridge and puts the radio detonator on the ground. He changes >> from his human vessel to his wolf vessel and waits. A bus taking loggers >> comes along and the wolf steps on the detonator setting off the charges and >> killing about a dozen people. >> >> How much disruption to the Symphony is there? > > Huge heaping gobloads, I'd say. This is not official, >since I haven't thought on it for a long time. Just by the >rules, there is no Disturbance. But it is FAR too unbalancing >for the Crack Chimp Commando Corps to start wandering around >with machine guns and rocket launchers in their fight against >evil and injustice! > I suppose y'all will want guidelines for this then.... >sigh. Any use of the devices of man (as opposed to the abilities >of the body of the animal vessel) will cause Disturbance. Rolling >rocks down a hill on the loggers would be fine, I'd say. Even >having beavers with razor-sharp teeth gnawing the bridge til it >fell. No guns. No bombs. No heat-seeking missiles. > > Unless I'm overruled, this is how _I'm_ going to play >it. I'd play it even stricter -- only animals doing what animals would do naturally -- gnaw that bridge down, fine, but careful about rock-rolling! It's an indrect attack that you can't justify as "natural behavior"! - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 12:29:46 -0400 (EDT) From: "Paul F. Strack" Subject: Re: IN> Jordi's Choir Attunements On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, Peter Frederick wrote: > A Servitor of Jordi, say a Malikim, sets some explosive charges on a bridge > that is used by a logging company. He moves some distance away where he can > still see the bridge and puts the radio detonator on the ground. He changes > from his human vessel to his wolf vessel and waits. A bus taking loggers > comes along and the wolf steps on the detonator setting off the charges and > killing about a dozen people. > > How much disruption to the Symphony is there? Urk! Touch question. IMHO, Servitors of Jordi simply have extremely high Roles as animals. They don't disturb the Symphony, but only as long as they act like the animal they are. Setting off bombs is outside their Role, and disturbs the Symphony. Gnawing on a human would not. None of this is supported in the rules, just my opinion. Paul Strack | Madness takes its toll. pfstrack@math.unc.edu | Please have exact change. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ World of Darkness Page - http://www.math.unc.edu/Grads/pfstrack/wod.html In Nomine Page - http://www.math.unc.edu/Grads/pfstrack/innom/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 11:29:00 -0500 (CDT) From: "Jared P. Buntain" Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine problems > Has anyone else had these kinds of comments from IN players? > > * ``It feels like superheroes, only more constrictive.'' > * ``There are too many `clans'; too much politics to memorise.'' > * ``The character classes are too complicated and obscure.'' > * ``The game system is too complicated.'' > * ``I'm still not sure what it is that motivates a celestial.'' > * ``Pendragon gives you better mechanics to support moral issues.'' > * ``Are all the plots going to be just more clan conflicts?'' > * ``How come there are so many special cases for simple rules?'' > * ``Do we have to memorise all these dissonance and attunement rules?'' > * ``Why do characters take so long to generate?'' > * ``Why should a celestial care which city he's in, or who he meets?'' > * ``Do devils really have to go around parking badly?'' > * ``Why should the angels and demons hate each other?'' The above comments are pretty similar to what I got when I first started my Shadowrun campaign. With some people (GM or players) its hard to get accross that sometimes, the characters have to take the proactive role, not just wait for the GM to hand them an adventure. The way I solved it (and who knows if its the best way) was to sit down with each player, and hammer out long term goals for thier characters. So, does this street sam really only want to retire in luxury? Where at? Does he care about the future of that location? Does he want to make a difference to the people who will live around him? (Apply this to either a servitor of David or Michael. You get the idea) My first couple of adventures in In Nomine didnt even involve demons, infernal forces or other bad guys. It revolved around the plans of my players to advance thier characters long term goals. Many of these goals center on picking a word an advancing it (even without having been granted the word yet, you know, curry favor). Some involved taking opposing archangels servitors down a notch or two (Novalis vs Michael, didnt work, but there it is). None of these, it should be noted, involved character vs character conflict. I dont like GM that kind of thing. So, to sort of sum up, I find it best to play games like In Nomine (where you have a cloak and dagger feel, as well as politics on both sides) by helping the players create tangible long term goals for thier characters, and then focusing the majority of the game on that, throwing demons and other opponents in as special treats to muck up the works. Thats may just be me though :) > * What's the use of mechanics for `essence', `dissonance' and `discord'? How Window dressing. I use them to limit how quickly a plan can be advanced. If your more comfortable with something else, why not play that way? :) > * The players have suggested a game where angels and demons play a much less > violent conflict against each other. Where they may actually like each > other, Hmm, Ive thought of this, and I dont see why it wouldnt work. But I havent done it. If you try it, tell us how it turns out! > has been about politics and mechanics. Why is it so complicated? How could > I make it easier for players to get into the game? The politics didnt seem that complicated. Most of the traffic to me where questions on mechanics. (Thrice damned Shedim... err) A lot of the mechanics questions are for the sake of consistency. You get a ruling from the Netrep or Line Editor, you can pretty much figure that when your at GenCon GM a pickup game, your players wont be so supprised by a particular ruling. Otherwise, just go with what makes sense to you. > * What are the long-term aspirations of characters in your game? The sense > I got from the book is that they are all doing revenge or self-agrandisement. Hmm let me see: I have three players who want words, and have decided that (whether those words are taken or not) they are going to try for them. The other three players havent decided really, and are doing the "do a good deed, help a puppy, sing a song" kind of playing. I have foils for thier activity as well :). > Is there a place for celestials to love people, places, and things of the > mundane world? Can they have desires that are not really part of the War at > all? Has anyone tried this? With what results? Yes, Yes, Yes, and I recommend it. It makes for much more intresting play. But again, I sort of had to babysit my players until they latched onto an idea for the long term goals of thier characters. > * Do the demons have to be so psychotic? It makes them very hard to play > credibly, and makes them hard to support as long-term PCs. I would say by definition demons are psychotic, or they would not have fallen. _How_ psychotic they are should be left to player style. Im not running any demons right now, so I cant comment on that. > * In our last game the mechanics kept getting in the way of the story needs. > Feng Shui system instead. Before doing this, I thought I'd ask: does anyone > have any working simplifications already in place? To many perception roles and will rolls? I wonder what your characters where doing! :) Mostly, I take the average when it doesnt matter, and only have rolls occur when the goals or lives of the characters are at stake. So if a demon is harrasing a human and making noise, only those characters with some interest in that human role, the rest get 7+whatever to see if they notice, and then get the level of check digit that makes sense to me. > Dr Mark Grundy, DCS, Phone: +61-6-249 3785 > 0200 Australia Email: Mark.Grundy@anu.edu.au Jared Buntain chandley@nwu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 11:43:58 -0500 (CDT) From: rogue@ez-net.com (RogueLdr) Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #129 > >What does the Vessel Level of a Celestial's Vessel represent? > >Thanking you for your indulgence. > >Yours > Peter. The vessel level is, IMO, how sreongly tied it is to the Corporeal plane. In game terms, this means how many Body hits it gives it's Celestial. I use the alternate body hits formula of (Strength+CorpForces)*Vessel Level to make it more important >A Servitor of Jordi, say a Malikim, sets some explosive charges on a bridge >that is used by a logging company. He moves some distance away where he can >still see the bridge and puts the radio detonator on the ground. He changes >from his human vessel to his wolf vessel and waits. A bus taking loggers >comes along and the wolf steps on the detonator setting off the charges and >killing about a dozen people. > >How much disruption to the Symphony is there? I'd say the full effect for twelve mortal deaths and destruction of a bridge. Jordi's servitors don't disturb the Symphony in their vessels, but since his actions were not those of a normal wolf (not even remotely), it doesn't count. Also, because the charges were set in while in human form.... >What if a Mercurian of Jordi in a chimp vessel placed the charges so that >both angels could stay in their animal vessels at all times in the operation.? A little tougher. You're an evil man, Peter. ;) But still, I'd say that since his actions were COMPLETELY out of line for a normal chimp, the Symphony is disturbed. Run far and run fast. All of that is IMHO, of course. >8. In God's cricket team, what position would you play, and why? >For countries where Cricket is not well known another sport may need to be >substituted :) . I'd say Football for all us Americans, but then the Malakim would have to fight over Free Safety. >> Here's an idea. Shedim CAN use this Rite if thhey like. The scar >> follows them through vessels, appearing on the bodies then >> disappearing when they leave. In this manner, it makes his Shedim >> much more careful, because they become much easier to track! > > > Wicked. ;) > "Hey Alahan, have you always had that pentagram shaped scar on your forehead?" "YES... Err, I mean, uhhh...." "He's possessed! Jump him!" ______ >> Also, if took a Role, perhaps as a prostitute or >> someone else who might make it her business to please others, then >> her Role might very well cover up the target's death. Many have died >> in bed, I'm told... > > Awww, go on and say it. The Role should be 'Whip-wielding >sadistic Mistress with an Attitude'. ;) Like the one on page 90? ;) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 11:58:49 -0500 (CDT) From: Brian Emord Subject: IN> Angels Pushaw Is it just me or has anyone noticed that the majority of the big questions about the game stem from those do-gooder Angels? I mean with Kyrios and now the Elohim, those guys are just too confusing, the thing is you KNOW where you stand with a demon...;) Then again my players call me biased... hrmm whatever could they mean??? Brian Emord Calabim formerly of Vapula who tried testing an experimental nuclear weapon at Pompeii...;) --* BEGIN GEEKCODE BLOCK *-- GCS/E d(+)>++ s+:+ a? C+++(++++)$ UBLAHS++$ P+++$ L++ E W++ N o K++ w O++ M-->--- V-- PS(++) PE(+)(-) Y+ PGP- t+@ 5+@ X R+(+++)* tv b++>+++ DI+++$ D G++ e(*)>++++ h+(*) r++>+++ y+ - --* END GEEKCODE BLOCK *-- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 12:41:30 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine problems One of Mark Grundy's questions was about celestial motives. Gregory Littmann's answer -- mainly to do good or do evil -- is perfectly adequate, but let me expand on it. It might help in fleshing out your character to use some stuff from one of the systems of psychological personality classification. For instance, the Myers-Briggs/Kiresy-Bates system classifies people into four type, each with sub-types. The four types match up with the ancient system of Hippocratic humors. Each type has a characteristic slant toward values, and therefore to good and evil. You could apply these types to angels and demons. Briefly, the four positions are: Sanguine: lives for action. Their moral system is based on freedom and generosity. (Infernally, the way to do someone dirt is to imprison or frustrate them.) Melancholy: lives for service. Their moral system is based on duty and obedience. (Infernally, the way to afflict someone is tip the up in the rules or get them disgraced.) Phlegmatic: lives for understanding. Their moral system is based on enlightenment and wisdom. (Infernally, the path of evil is the path of delusion, illusion, error, ignorance, and misundertanding.) Choleric: lives for love. Their moral system is based on fulfilling relationships. (Infernally, the way to cause harm is to cool, destroy, or warp personal relationships.) A note abou infernal motives. The book says over and over that devils are devoted to selfishness, and this is perfectly orthodox ethical theory. But, please note, this means each demon is personally selfish. An angel might lay down its life in the service of Good; no demon would willingly lay down its life in the service of Evil -- at most, it might be driven to suicide by terror or despair. In Milton's "Paradise Lost," the basic infernal motive with regard to humanity is spite. Satan and his host cannot do any more to harm God or the angels, so they take it out on us. Picture a creep who has broken up with a girl far too good for him. He can't hurt her directly, but he cuts her kid brother out of a job, or poisons her dog. In C. S. Lewis's "Screwtape Letters," the demons devour the souls of the damned. They want us for food. (Demons who fail at too many assignments are themselves slated for the kitchen -- and I don't mean washing the dishes.) One medieval legends says that the devils are anxious to keep people out of heaven because it delays the day that the preordained tally of the saved is completed and Doomsday comes. The background assumption is that the devils expect to lose the Last Battle and find things even worse than they are now. Another motive is jealousy. Some say humans were created to take the places of the fallen angels, when we get to heaven. More than one of these motives could be used at once. And, of course, the immediate motive of a demon on Earth could be pleasing its Prince. Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #130 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1996 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.