From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Apr 24 17:33:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (root@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by deliverator.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA07875; Thu, 24 Apr 1997 16:57:54 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA06235 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 24 Apr 1997 15:48:28 -0500 Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 15:48:28 -0500 Message-Id: <199704242048.PAA06235@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #138 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, April 24 1997 Volume 01 : Number 138 In this digest: Re: IN> Vessel Aging Re: IN> QUESTION: Automatic success rolls IN> New Archangels/Demon Princes RE: IN> Tea and Sympathy Re: IN> Invocations and Eli? IN> In Nomine Mud? Re: IN> Loki, Arghangel of Errata IN> The Nature of Faith IN> In Nomine Resolutions Re: IN> Xexistanai - origin of name??? RE: IN> Tea and Sympathy Re: IN> Is Your Web Site A Secret? Re: (OT) IN> Is your Web Site A Secret? Re: IN> New Archangels/Demon Princes Re: IN> The War Revealed - Warrior Nun Re: IN> Vessel Aging Eli (was Re: IN> Jordi Question) Re: IN> The Nature of Faith IN> Week in Hell (fwd) Re: IN> The Nature of Faith Re: IN> Loki, Arghangel of Errata Re: IN> The Nature of Faith Re: IN> Tea and Sympathy ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 08:20:47 -0400 (EDT) From: "Paul F. Strack" Subject: Re: IN> Vessel Aging On Thu, 24 Apr 1997, Peter Frederick wrote: > Do Celestial's Vessels age? If so would they die of old age? Only if they want to. > Do they (besides Ofanim of Eli) have any control over the speed and extent > of that aging? Celestial may choose whether or not they age. They may not reverse aging or age at unnatural rates unless have the Corporeal Song of Entropy, though. Paul Strack | Madness takes its toll. pfstrack@math.unc.edu | Please have exact change. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ World of Darkness Page - http://www.math.unc.edu/Grads/pfstrack/wod.html In Nomine Page: INC2 - http://www.math.unc.edu/Grads/pfstrack/innom/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 08:34:23 -0400 (EDT) From: "Paul F. Strack" Subject: Re: IN> QUESTION: Automatic success rolls On Thu, 24 Apr 1997, Walt Mazur wrote: > Well, then why wouldn't any other action that gets to automatic level > be equally immune from intervention? For example, Lockpicking/6 with a > precision of 6? Yet it is subject to Intervention as are Resonances, > so I wonder if "automatic" attunements should be, too. But Attunements > are special, so I wonder what the official Word is. OTOH, automatic > successes are pretty special, too. Hmm. Good point. Well, you can choose to only make them roll in dramatic situations (when it is really important to get that lock open), just to keep the PCs honest. IMHO, though, "interventions" can simply be unusual fumbles or extraordinary successes. It *might* be direct divine intervention, or it might not be. I prefer to keep just situatios ambiguous - it's good for faith :) Paul Strack | Madness takes its toll. pfstrack@math.unc.edu | Please have exact change. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ World of Darkness Page - http://www.math.unc.edu/Grads/pfstrack/wod.html In Nomine Page: INC2 - http://www.math.unc.edu/Grads/pfstrack/innom/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 14:22:34 +0100 () From: "David.Evans" Subject: IN> New Archangels/Demon Princes Archangel Beth sayeth that others say that... etc, etc, ad nauseum:- > >> I'm sure SJG wouldn't sink so low. They'd only do books > >>for Archangel/Demon Prince opposed pairings, not one book per > >>Superior... (Or AA/DP "similar" pairings, or something.) Personally, I hope they don't even do *that*. [RANT ON] I know of many WW players who are sick to the back teeth with X million different supplements for every different Clan, bloodline, etc. I seriously hope that SJG never decide to go down that route; if they're well-written (and why shouldn't they be?) the Angelic and Demonic Players Guides should be good enough in and of themselves. Say they're 210-or-so pages each. That's _30_pages_ for each Choir/Band! Even accounting for the obligatory nifty artwork taking up space, that's still about two dozen pages, which is more than enough space to accommodate complete rules clarifications (now why do Karyotates and Shedim spring to mind?), example archetypal, and atypical, characters, and a few Adventure seeds for each to boot. There, I'm not *that* difficult to please, am I? :-) > >>And > >>I'm sure that they'd do the same with the Choir/Band books -- one > >>for Seraphim/Balseraphs, etc. Except it would be one for Kyriotates > >>(or maybe two, you know how those guys are) all to themselves... Personally, I'd prefer one 300-page book for each septet of Choirs and Bands, and have it left at that, rather than go the WW route of a 50 to 60 page booklet for each "Clan"... [RANT OFF] > >That's better..... but it's *still* 21 books..... ;) > Precisely my point above. Say 21 books, 5 or 6 pounds each ($10 to those on the other side of the pond :) makes for a grand total of 120-odd pounds ($210) to collect the whole caboodle. *Sheesh*! > Details, details... (Actually, as all may have noticed, > SJG seems to be packing "extra detail" into their upcoming books > four at a time (with the exception of Khalid, who gets his own > section in the angel-player-guide), which sounds like it's > not that bad... 4 AA/DPs per book, plus more material? Well, I met Steve Jackson at the Complusions '97 gaming convention in February, just after IN had come out, and he said that he had _no_intention_whatsoever_ of letting the number of AAs/DPs get up to anywhere *near* the levels in INS/MV, ie more or less 100 in total, or near as dammit makes no odds. Personally, I think that there should be no more than (plucking a ballplark figure off the top of his head...) 25 or 30 AAs/DPs each _at_the_most_, IMHO (preferably the lower end of that range). It's not that I'm against the politicing that will go on in the IN universe, but, well, things could get somewhat OTT if too many Powerful Superiors get thrown into the melting pot. What I *would* like to see, as a GM (yes, I have run a short adventure already), is a range of lesser, but still powerful, probably Word-bound Celestials, to be useable as NPCs, as Superiors for the PCs to serve, to fight against (physically or politically) or to serve as foils (an invaluable GM tool :). Also, I'd like to see a selection of suggested adventures seeds along the lines of GURPS Supporting Cast or the Rumors sections in Marc Millar's Travellar supplements. As an ideal, I'd like to see the GM's Manual, or whatever it's going to be called, have *LOTS* of stuff like this to help all us poor flagging GMs (not all of us have the creativity of Bhodi, et al) produce the best possible gaming experience for our players. If this means that any future supplement designed _purely_ for GMs will be a little larger (say up to 300 pages?) then I'll be happy to pay a little more for it if the quality is up to scratch. Given SJG's past record in this regard, I don't I'll have too much to worry over on those regards. :-) Be seeing you... David. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 07:22:13 -0600 From: Rob Wolff Subject: RE: IN> Tea and Sympathy - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC5080.3BEDAFC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Excuse me... did I miss something? I haven't really been reading this thread very closely (insert standard = Canadian apologies)... anybody care to privately e-mail me and clue me = in as to what it is I'm whining about, and why it is I apparently whine = so effectively (and also what this emoting critique is based on)? Rob Wolff / Bodhi Rob@v-wave.com - -----Original Message----- From: tom timberlake [SMTP:tomtimb@ionet.net] Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 1997 10:14 PM To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Subject: Re: IN> Tea and Sympathy Hollis McCray wrote: >=20 > Sorry guys, I was looking at lunchtime and I can't find either the NPC = or > the origianal sheet. I'll have to reconstruct them. But when I DO post = him, > I will include info on the coffee shop, too. Just as a tease, the name = of > the coffee shop is, in full, "The Free Mind Coffee Shop and = Strangeness > Emporium." > Did I spell emporium right? > It will be a while, so stop drooling. >=20 > You heard, me Bohdi. > Stop whining, too. >=20 > Yes, this means you. > Hollis McCray > Madman at Large > email: Mccrayh@yoda.cochise.cc.az.us >=20 > "No matter where you go, there you are." > -Buckaroo Banzai but he whines sooo welllll!!!! signed, - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC5080.3BEDAFC0 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+Ig8NAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEEkAYAyAEAAAEAAAAQAAAAAwAAMAIAAAAL AA8OAAAAAAIB/w8BAAAATwAAAAAAAACBKx+kvqMQGZ1uAN0BD1QCAAAAAGluX25vbWluZS1sQGxp c3RzLmlvLmNvbQBTTVRQAGluX25vbWluZS1sQGxpc3RzLmlvLmNvbQAAHgACMAEAAAAFAAAAU01U UAAAAAAeAAMwAQAAABkAAABpbl9ub21pbmUtbEBsaXN0cy5pby5jb20AAAAAAwAVDAEAAAADAP4P 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kestre1@airmail.net (Andrew Getting) Subject: Re: IN> Invocations and Eli? At 08:56 AM 4/24/97 GMT+10, in_nomine-l@lists.io.com wrote: >In reply to: > > Even if he >> did show up what would he have knowlege of considering he stripped >> himself of his memories? Sorry if this has already been asked. >> >I didn't get the impression that he removed his memories. I just >thought that he put his past behind himself and went Earth-side. He >still knows *who* he is and *what* he is, but he just doesn't give a >damn and is enjoying life as a human. Anyway, the chance of summoning >Eli (I think) refers more to him just 'happening to be in the area'. >If he hears you, he'll drop by, 'cause human life is so much fun he >wants to share it with his pals (servants). Anyway, even if you left >your life behind but took a portable phone, you'd feel inclined to >answer it occassionally. "But a few decades ago, Eli abandoned his divine mosque, stripped himself of the memories of his past and disappeared into the corporeal masses." IN, page 116 As for what Eli has knowledge of, the answer's a little obvious to me: humanity. He's probably closer to the mortal masses than any angel, and quite possibly any celestial. Kestrel ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 09:31:04 +0000 From: KyleW@mail.myriad.net Subject: IN> In Nomine Mud? Is there such a thing? (not the Mush - Mushes are icky =) ) If not, well - would anyone over at SJ Games mind such a thing existing, and would anyone on this list be prone to helping bouild it, mayhaps? Kyle Watkins ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 10:34:59 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Loki, Arghangel of Errata Loki (as in the deity of old) is going to be in an upcoming supplement (probably Marches), so it's probably best not to use this name. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | "A fundamental principle of economics is that the | | more you tax something, the less you get of it. | | In this country we tax success most of all." | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: 24 Apr 97 10:27:00 EDT From: Moriah - Steve Jackson Games <73407.515@CompuServe.COM> Subject: IN> The Nature of Faith Knowing that God exists does not preclude faith. Faith is not the belief that the proposition 'God exists' is true. Lucifer knows God exists, and yet, Lucifer doesn't have *faith in* God. Faith is better defined as a trusting relationship. E.g., when your best friend promises to help you, you have *faith in* your friend that they will come through. That is the faith that religious folks talk of. They take God's existence as a fact, and then put their trust (their faith) in this God. Or, to look at it another way. Did Moses or any of the prophets lose faith when they encountered God? Certainly not, rather, their faith grew. Now, in modern society when atheism or agnosticism occurs among a significant minority of the population, the question of whether there is a God does become a stumbling block to faith. So, the angels don't conceal themselves because of the fear that humans would lose faith if they were to prove God's existence by their own existence. There are other reasons: 1. Told by God to not interfere (too much). That should be sufficient for any angel not on the road to Falling. 2. Why does God forbid it? There are only educated guesses. The best is that interference reduces Free Will. The humans should be as self-responsible as possible (God wants friends to love, not organic machines to command). Also, it's hard for a human to resist celestials because they are celestials. How many people would be able to say 'no' to a divine being in celestial form asking from us a favor? (Other than you reprobates?) 3. Interference causes Disturbance in the Symphony. It's not natural. That should also make any *good* angel pause before changing the course of the lives of mortals. Peace, Moriah ------------------------------ Date: 24 Apr 97 10:27:15 EDT From: Moriah - Steve Jackson Games <73407.515@compuserve.com> Subject: IN> In Nomine Resolutions This bounced. Donno y. P -M. - ----Forwarded Message(s)---- Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 12:52:26 +1000 From: Mark Grundy Dear In-Nominians, Thanks for the private and public email, advice, encouragement and face-slaps about my In Nomine problems. They were all very useful. I think I'm now in a position to work out what I want to do with the game. I'm writing it down to help clarify it, and I'm posting it here to show the outcome to those people who responded to my first mail, and to invite comments and suggestions from anyone who's interested. I'd especially like to find out if there are other people on this list who've been playing IN with a similar approach, as I'd like to swap stories and ideas. Please bear in mind that what follows is not intended to prescribe the ideal In Nomine game -- it's just a proposal for what I want to run for my own play group. Thanks again, Mark - -------------------------------- Proposal: A series of one-off (`one-shot') In Nomine games about the war for control of humanity's destiny, enacted through celestial influence of pivotal social events, and emphasising the personal costs of success, and the growth from failure. They'll be one-shot games because this will let us take more risks with story and character, and explore areas that a campaign might not touch, and because it'll let me team up different groups of players more easily. The emphasis is based on my own interests, and on what I know of the interests of my play group. - -------------------------------- My take on celestials (for the purpose of this game proposal): What's the purpose of Celestials? Celestials don't have a job, exactly. Their purpose is to be themselves, and to do as their natures bid them. They have no separation between doing and being, since each action is an expression of a celestial's identity. On the other hand, they are organised, and are apportionedindividual tasks. *All* celestials tend something or other all the time -- there are no vacations, although there is `sick leave'. Everything in the Universe is tended directly or indirectly by some celestial or other. Word Bound Celestials are no different from any other kind, except that they have additional affinities. Celestials without word bindings are just as responsible for their own tasks as Celestials with word bindings. The Universe is changing -- new concepts appear and old concepts are forgotten. As the universe changes, so the tasks Celestials undertake change too. It is clear that Celestials have the capacity to create change in the Universe, and also to moderate change. Celestials and Free Will: Celestials are not deterministic -- nobody can tell just by looking if a celestial will Fall, or when. On the other hand, they lack the human facility to defer the consequences of their actions indefinitely. Where humans can build up a mass of karma that defers until their deaths, celestials always experience karmic consequences immediately. Their powers change, their affinities change, even their forms change -- depending on what they've done. Unlike humans, they can't stick their heads in the sand about consequences, and so humans say that celestials have `no free will'. For Celestials themselves though, the question is moot. What's the relationship between Angels and Demons? Demons are not broken or second-rate angels, and they're not simply alternative-life celestials. They are embodiments of principles in every sense that angels are, and they are mandated to exist while those principles exist within the Universe. The basic principle dividing angels and demons is the principle of an individual's opposition to its own suffering and destruction -- a principle that demons uphold, but which angels do not. Curiously, it is the same demonic principle at work in humans which makes humans judge angels as good and selfless, while seeing demons as evil and selfish. If humans were like angels, and didn't care about their own suffering and destruction, then they wouldn't consider demons evil at all. Presumably, this relates back to the epoch in which humanity says it acquired the knowledge of good and evil -- the creation of a conscious division between `Self' and `Other', with a bias to look after `Self'. In the angelic scheme, demons disrupt the Symphony. This mandates their assimilation or destruction. In the demonic scheme, angels are a clear and present threat to an individual's right to comfort and safety. This mandates their subornment or destruction. How angels and demons go about assimilating, suborning and destroying depends on their own natures. From a human perspective, some will seem filled with implacable hatred for their opposition. Others will seem mild and tolerant of their foes. This depends on the celestial's nature, and ascribing human emotions or temperament to these interactions is really a homocentric simplification. - -------------------------------- Why the war over humanity's destiny and fate? Actually, humanity isn't the only possible battleground for angels and demons to war over -- but it is a most fertile ground for angelic and demonic conflict. Humans have intrinsic value to demons because they are a source of power (eg, essence), and tools for demonic protection. Humans have no intrinsic value to angels, except as just another part of the Symphony. Some angels may consider humans `special', but that is a function of the angel's own nature -- there are angels that look after rocks and trees too, who don't consider humans `special' at all. For play purposes we will focus largely on the war over humanity, because that's where the market audience lives, but there will also be many celestials who consider humanity utterly irrelevant. - -------------------------------- The purpose of dissonance and discord Players in this game should expect to generate and lose dissonance and discord during the course of the story. This is part of the purpose of the game -- to see how the characters will respond to different challenges, and to see how they fare with the consequences. Some angels will Fall, some demons will be redeemed, and some may be destroyed, or move on to greater things. Not every character will achieve its own goals, but in succeeding or in failing, each should contribute to an enjoyable and absorbing overall story. - -------------------------------- What kinds of characters are suited for this game? Because the focus of the game is celestial interaction with human history, human history plays a big part in the character hooks for a celestial. There's little scope for playing `blow in' characters, fresh down from heaven to do a single job before disappearing again. There's more scope to play characters with a long involvement in human affairs, who've played pivotal roles in past events, and who have built up knowledge, skills, friendships, enmities and attachments for people, places and things. Characters can be re-used from earlier stories, but there is no guarantee of long term playability of any individual character. Characters are expected to come with a history of successes and failures to help create story and character hooks. There's no problem with playing a diabolical character. The important thing is to focus on the threats, fears and aspirations of such a character, and how it responds to these threats. While it may take delight in causing human suffering, that delight should be related directly to the basic demon instinct in this play framework: to survive and prosper. - -------------------------------- Mechanics, Power levels and House Rules Because the games are all to be one-shots, power balance is not a big issue. It should be easy to create characters with Distinctions, with extra Resources etc... if the concept suits the storyline we're running. Similarly, it should be possible to mix gremlins with Soldiers with Celestials, if that would help the storyline. Likewise, the mechanics may be loose or tight depending on what we need. Mechanics are not guaranteed to be consistent between games. In some games we may dispense with the rules for Essence, say, because they get in the way of the issues. In other games we might do lots of Essence bookkeeping if the story is about being pushed right to the edge of your resources. - -- Dr Mark Grundy, DCS, Phone: +61-6-249 3785 Education Co-ordinator, Fax: +61-6-249 0010 CRC for Advanced Computational Systems, The Australian National University, Web: http://cs.anu.edu.au/~Mark.Grun dy 0200 Australia Email: Mark.Grundy@anu.edu.au - ----End Forwarded Message(s)---- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 16:15:13 +0100 () From: "David.Evans" Subject: Re: IN> Xexistanai - origin of name??? John Karakesh said:- > > On Apr 18, 4:59pm, David.Evans wrote: > > Subject: Re: IN> Xexistanai - origin of name??? > > John Karakesh said that:- > > > > > BTW, I have a free cookie for the first > > > person who tells me where I got the name Xexistanai! > > > > > > > > > Erm, from a bag of Scabble tiles? :-) > > > Pshaw! There's only 'x' in scrabble if I remember > correctly. > OK, so you drew a blank tile as well... :-) Be seeing you... David. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 08:48:08 -0700 From: Hollis McCray Subject: RE: IN> Tea and Sympathy At 07:22 AM 4/24/97 -0600, you wrote: >Excuse me... did I miss something? >I haven't really been reading this thread very closely (insert standard Canadian apologies)... anybody care to privately e-mail me and clue me in as to what it is I'm whining about, and why it is I apparently whine so effectively (and also what this emoting critique is based on)? > >Rob Wolff / Bodhi >Rob@v-wave.com Sorry, Bohdi. I didn't mean to make you mad. I've promised the list info on a Mercurianof Eli who runs a rather strange coffee shop. I just picked you because you *do* whine so well, IMHO. Hollis McCray Madman at Large email: Mccrayh@yoda.cochise.cc.az.us "No matter where you go, there you are." - -Buckaroo Banzai ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Apr 97 12:21 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Is Your Web Site A Secret? >Now, if you go to http://rs.internic.net/cgi-bin/whois and check >the Received From digits... (ns.owlsnest.com [206.112.60.212]), you >will find that 206.112.60 goes to: > >UUNET Technologies, Inc. NETBLK-NETBLK-UUNETCBLK-112 > 3060 Williams Drive, Suite 601 > Fairfax, VA 22031 Actually, UUNet is not the direct upstream of owlsnest -- a traceroute shows owlsnest gets their service from htp.net. I've already reported the problem to both HTP and UUnet. I haven't received any response from HTP, but the mail to their abuse address didn't bounce, at least. owlsnest is a repeat spammer -- they did a spam a couple months ago, so it probably doesn't hurt to grumble to UUnet as well; it may be that HTP isn't interested in shutting down spammers. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Apr 97 12:35 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: (OT) IN> Is your Web Site A Secret? >For that matter, how did this message get sent to the list anyway? I suspect a webcrawler or some sort picked up the mailto link from one of the IN web pages. I got the same spam a little earlier to my personal address at io, which can be picked up off several web pages there. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 11:17:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Gregory Littmann Subject: Re: IN> New Archangels/Demon Princes On Thu, 24 Apr 1997, David.Evans wrote: > > Personally, I'd prefer one 300-page book for each septet of Choirs and > Bands, and have it left at that, rather than go the WW route of a 50 to > 60 page booklet for each "Clan"... [RANT OFF] I think that two 300 page books would be good. However, I would prefer to see them based on the ARchangels rather than the clans. I think that the way an Angel with think will have more to do with who she serves than what she is by nature. After all, as a rule Angels manage to co-operate more easily with those of their own superior than of their own choir. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 12:13:36 -0500 (CDT) From: Shadowcat Subject: Re: IN> The War Revealed - Warrior Nun Peter, Are you planning on converting Areala, Shotgun Mary, Serina, Fathers Crow, and Fang, and Gypsy Rose??? If so I would love to see them, though it may be a good idea to wait for the expanded Soldier of Heaven/Hell rules. If you want help let me know I have most of these series. Peter is right though these are great comix for incorperating into a IN campaighn. Shadowcat All cats may look upon a king. No comment on the Queen ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Apr 97 12:32 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Vessel Aging >yet another Vessel question. > >Do Celestial's Vessels age? If so would they die of old age? This is in the book somewhere (sidebar on vessels, I think). Vessels *can* age but don't naturally -- a celestial can have it age normally, if desired. To maintain a Role, it might be necessary to have a vessel "die", but otherwise I don't think so -- vessels *aren't* regular human bodies. >Do they (besides Ofanim of Eli) have any control over the speed and extent >of that aging? I believe at least a couple Songs can change apparent vessel age (Celestial Form, if I remember right, and possibly one of the Songs of Entropy). - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Apr 97 12:04 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Eli (was Re: IN> Jordi Question) >If we want to talk about artwork, what's Eli doing on a television >screen behind Nybbas along with several Demon Princes? :) Is this a >clue? As I recall, when this question was asked before, Derek just chuckled evilly and refused to comment. Or something of the sort. I seem to remember that at least some of the pictures behind Nybbas include hostile or enemy Princes as well, so Eli's picture there may not signify much except that Nybbas is concerned with him in some way. (Makes sense, as patron of Art, among other things, Eli's got to be in fairly direct opposition to Nybbas' plans.) On the other hand, Derek is an evil, twisted person, and there are clearly foreshadowings of future revelations in the book. (Look at the Janus/Valefor bit, for example. Or the all-too-brief mention of the Children of the Grigori. Or the stuff about Uriel. Or the enigmatic Yves.) All this leads me to conclude that Derek is a Habbalite of Nybbas. Or maybe a Balseraph, but from various clues, I think he fits better into the ranks of the Habbalim -- he likes tormenting all us readers.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 10:06:43 -0700 (PDT) From: "J. Dring" Subject: Re: IN> The Nature of Faith On 24 Apr 1997, Moriah - Steve Jackson Games wrote: > Knowing that God exists does not preclude faith. Faith is not the belief > that the proposition 'God exists' is true. Lucifer knows God exists, and > yet, Lucifer doesn't have *faith in* God. Faith is better defined as a > trusting relationship. E.g., when your best friend promises to help you, you > have *faith in* your friend that they will come through. That is the faith > that religious folks talk of. They take God's existence as a fact, and then > put their trust (their faith) in this God. Hmm. I'm afraid I'll have to disagree with that. If I recall my comparative religion stuff (reaching way back to those undergrad years) faith is precisely the "belief" that God exists. Yes, religious folks take it as a fact that God exists, but they do so because they have faith that he exists. Someone who has PROOF that God exists by definition, I think, cannot have FAITH because they KNOW. There was an excellent take on this in one of the Discworld books where it talked about the relationship between mages and gods. To paraphrase, mages believing in gods is like people beliving in the mailman. Faith doesn't enter into it, you just know they exist and go from there. That is what makes faith so powerful. With no proof whatsoever, you firmly commit to the belief in something/someone. God doesn't want to put in a personal appearance because doing so would destroy faith forever. Sure, a few select performances (though it would seem that it was never the big G himself but rather a minions who spread the word) are acceptable to keep things going, but appearing in all his glory to the world would muck things up. Andrew Ross ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 13:11:11 -0400 (EDT) From: gibsonc@nku.edu Subject: IN> Week in Hell (fwd) - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 15:39:21 -0500 From: Lyons To: gibsonc@NKU.EDU, jasewr@iglou.com, monaca@vci.net, starr@mursuky.campus.mci.net, quiz@muhlon.com, stokesr@NKU.EDU, kyheater@aol.com, kr-scooby@usa.net Subject: Week in Hell A week in hell One day, a guy dies and finds himself in hell. As he is wallowing in despair, he has his first meeting with a demon: Demon: Why so glum, chum? guy: What do you think? I'm in hell. Demon: Hell's not so bad. We actually have a lot of fun down here. You a drinkin' man? Guy: Sure, I love to drink. Demon: Well, you're gonna love Mondays then. On Mondays, that's all we do is drink. Whiskey, tequila, guinness, wine coolers, diet Tab... we drink till we throw up and then we drink some more. Guy: Gee, that sounds great. Demon: You a smoker? Guy: You better believe it. Demon: All right! You're gonna love Tuesdays. We get the finest cigars from around the world and smoke our friggin' lungs out. If you get cancer, it's okay... you're already dead. Guy: Golly! Demon: I bet you like to gamble. Guy: Yes, as a matter of fact I do. Demon: Good, because Wednesday is gambling day. Craps, blackjack, horse races, you name it. We even opened up a pai gow poker table. Guy: Gosh, I never played pai gow before... Demon: Well now you can. You like to do drugs? Guy: Yes, I love to do drugs. You don't mean... Demon: That's right! Thursday is drug day. Help yourself to a great big bowl of crack. Smoke a doobie the size of a submarine. You can do all the drugs you want, and if you overdose, it's okay... you're already dead. Guy: Neat! I never realized that hell was such a swingin' place! Demon: You gay? Guy: Uh, no. Demon: Oooh, you're gonna hate Fridays ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 14:26:09 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> The Nature of Faith J. Dring wrote: Hmm. I'm afraid I'll have to disagree with that. If I recall my comparative religion stuff (reaching way back to those undergrad years) faith is precisely the "belief" that God exists. Like many important words, "faith" has many meanings. In one sense, anyone who is not a total solipcist or catatonic uses a lot of "faith" to get through the day. But the use Moriah defends is the one that is primary within religion. Faith in the mere existence of God is, perhaps, primary when one stands outside religion, looking in, as in philosophical theology or comparative religion. But, when you are actively engaged in the religious life, not studying that life, faith is more than intellectual assent in something's existence. To quote a scripture that Moriah likely had in mind, "You believe in God? You do well. But the demons also believe, and shudder." - -- James 2:19 To quote from a sermon my father once gave, "When I say I have faith in my wife, I don't just mean I believe she exists." Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 18:47:38 GMT From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: Re: IN> Loki, Arghangel of Errata On Thu, 24 Apr 1997 10:34:59 -0400, "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" wrote: > Loki (as in the deity of old) is going to be in >an upcoming supplement (probably Marches), so it's probably >best not to use this name. Well, I don't really expect it to be used, it was just for the amusement of you and others who have to deal with errata. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 14:56:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Kenneth Winland Subject: Re: IN> The Nature of Faith Greetings! On 24 Apr 1997, Moriah - Steve Jackson Games wrote: > So, the angels don't conceal themselves because of the fear that humans > would lose faith if they were to prove God's existence by their own existence. > > There are other reasons: > > 1. Told by God to not interfere (too much). That should be sufficient for > any angel not on the road to Falling. You bet! Look what happened in I Enoch 7:1-15. Two hundred angels came to Earth and took wives and taught humankind magic, metallurgy, etc. ("Sons of God and the daughters of man"). God was NOT amused and sent Gabriel, Uriel, Raphael, Suryal and Michael to punish them. Even in the OT, one gets the feeling that the Lord likes to keep angels from interacting too much with humankind. Take care, Ken ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 14:07:20 -0500 From: tom timberlake Subject: Re: IN> Tea and Sympathy same here, Bodhi. it was just your turn--if it had been anyone else's name in there, they would have gotten the same treatment. nothing personal, just me letting my sarcastic sense of humor out to play. chin up, me bucko....tomtimb ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #138 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1996 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.