From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue May 13 14:13:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA23045 for ; Tue, 13 May 1997 14:13:50 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA21917 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 13 May 1997 13:16:38 -0500 Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 13:16:38 -0500 Message-Id: <199705131816.NAA21917@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #167 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, May 13 1997 Volume 01 : Number 167 In this digest: Re: IN> Celestial Disturbances IN> Archangel of haling - Raphael Re: IN> More ramblings about smoking/disturbance... IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #166 Re: IN> Immediate aftermath of the Fall; the law of threes Re: IN> More ramblings about smoking/disturbance... Re: IN> Impudite Imbalance? Re: IN> Immediate aftermath of the Fall; the law of threes IN> Revelations Cycle Re: IN> More ramblings about smoking/disturbance... Re: IN> Immediate aftermath of the Fall Re: IN> the law of threes... Re: IN> Impudite Imbalance? Re: IN> Immediate aftermath of the Fall; the law of threes Re: IN> Too Much Music?? IN> Stupid musical question Re: IN> Celestial Disturbances Re: IN> the law of threes... Re: IN> Immediate aftermath of the Fall; the law of threes IN> Roles Re: IN> Impudite Imbalance? Re: IN> Revelations Cycle IN> Re: How might the fall have happened? IN> Malakim Honour ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 08:17:34 GMT From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: Re: IN> Celestial Disturbances On Tue, 13 May 1997 00:00:39 -0400 (EDT), "Paul F. Strack" wrote: >> >I was try to address a slight different question: Will a particular >> >disturbance be heard by anyone at all? For that question, generic >> >Celestials seemed to work best (I assumed things would "average out"). >> >> I see one difficulty with this. The average celestial may have three >> celestial forces (or may not since ethereal forces seem least useful). A >> group of average celestials will all hear the same thing. However, an group >> of random celestials may have an individual with a higher celestial forces, >> and, thus, a much greater perception of disturbance. IOW, one enemy >> celestial with six celestial forces and a perception of twelve or twenty is >> enough to ruin your whole day. Note that six celestial forces is quite >> possible for a beginning character; it's probable for a seneschal. > >Hmm. I apologize for harping on the same point. Let me try again. No problem. My tabular response was somewhat off your initial point. >Assume that the GM know nothing at all about the angels of the city, >except for a general idea of their local population density. No Forces, >no Perception, nothing, nada, nilch :) Putting aside the point that GMs are omniscient in their own worlds, ok. :) >The system I created in the article was designed to determine whether >there will be a response to a particular Disturbance based solely on the >strength of that Disturbance and nothing more. That's what all the dice >rolling rules at the end of the article are for. > >The exposition at the beginning of the article was aimed at getting >estimates of "average hearing distances" to make the second half of the >rules reasonable. The random elements in the second half of the rules are >intended to cover the possibility that there are Celestials of differing >perceptive levels within range of the Disturbance. Ok, I understand better now, but I think assumptions about the opposing force structure are still an important factor. Consider what happens when you go from 3 celestial forces to 4. The basic distance goes up by the level of the disturbance, but also perception goes up by 2 (if points are evenly distributed), which stretches perception out 2 times basic distance staying at the same probability. Of course, the area in which a disturbance can be sensed increases by the square of the detection range. So, the end result is that one celestial at 4 forces is worth many 3 forces celestials, at least when sensing small disturbances. Below is a table of celestials needed per square mile to get a 6 perception roll at various disturbance levels assuming characteristic points are spent equally on Will and Perception. "Deaf" means that the celestial cannot get the perception to 6. Zero means that a celestial can cover over 2 square miles (i.e., <0.5 has rounded to zero). As you can see, the situation is very non-linear. Philosophically, I very much agree with your thrust to simplify disturbance perception. I'm just pointing out that the effect of higher level celestials is very significant, even overwhelming for low disturbances. Even if the consideration is completely in the abstract, I think the GM should consider the opposition force structure. For example, suppose the opposition will be demons with 7 forces. If they're all forces 2/2/3 with perception of 6, it takes 122 per square mile to get a roll of 6 for all disturbances of level 5. But, if lookouts with forces 1/1/5 with perception of 10 are used, it only takes 16 per square mile for the same detection roll. Celestial Forces 1 2 3 4 5 6 Perception Adj. -4 -2 0 +2 +4 +6 Celes/ Celes/ Celes/ Celes/ Celes/ Celes/ Disturbance sq.mi. sq.mi. sq.mi. sq.mi. sq.mi. sq.mi. 1 Deaf Deaf 27389 3852 1096 428 2 Deaf 61625 3043 616 201 85 3 Deaf 6847 761 190 68 30 4 61625 1712 274 79 30 14 5 9860 616 122 39 16 8 6 3043 274 62 21 9 5 7 1258 140 35 13 6 3 8 616 79 21 8 4 2 9 338 48 14 5 2 1 10 201 30 9 4 2 1 11 127 20 6 3 1 1 12 85 14 5 2 1 1 13 58 10 3 1 1 0 14 42 7 2 1 1 0 15 30 6 2 1 0 0 16 23 4 1 1 0 0 17 17 3 1 1 0 0 18 14 3 1 0 0 0 19 11 2 1 0 0 0 20 9 2 1 0 0 0 21 7 1 1 0 0 0 22 6 1 0 0 0 0 23 5 1 0 0 0 0 24 4 1 0 0 0 0 25 3 1 0 0 0 0 26 3 1 0 0 0 0 27 2 1 0 0 0 0 28 2 0 0 0 0 0 29 2 0 0 0 0 0 30 2 0 0 0 0 0 31 1 0 0 0 0 0 32 1 0 0 0 0 0 33 1 0 0 0 0 0 34 1 0 0 0 0 0 35 1 0 0 0 0 0 36 1 0 0 0 0 0 37 1 0 0 0 0 0 38 1 0 0 0 0 0 39 1 0 0 0 0 0 40 0 0 0 0 0 0 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 May 97 01:40:07 UT From: "Kurt White" Subject: IN> Archangel of haling - Raphael This is my first post of a new character/type for IN, so feel free to add your two cents... I'd like to hear any suggestions about Raphael, so I can make him gameworthy for a campaign. RAPHAEL ARCHANGEL OF HEALING Raphael is one of God's most faithful angels. One of the first angels created by God, through his great contact with the Corporeal world, Raphael has become increasingly devoted to the human race. He is declared in the book of Enoch as being "set over all the diseases and all the wounds of the children of men". It is Raphael's lot to watch over Man, and safeguard his charges from illness and disease. Raphael has always seen himself as one of the "old boys", along with Yves, Uriel, Gabriel, and Michael. But since Uriel's recall to higher Heaven, Gabriel's apparent insanity, and Michael's charge of vainglory, Raphael has become distanced somewhat from his fellow angels, only recognising Yves as a contemporary, if not an ally. Raphael has never truly been at ease with the enigmatic Angel of Destiny. Raphael appears on Earth generally as an attractive younger man, with dark hair, and a slightly chubby build, almost the archetypal Cherub. He is always well dressed, and has a quiet, unassuming "bedside manner". DISSONANCE To an angel of Raphael, knowingly allowing human suffering when the angel could help that person will cause dissonance. That is, if a human has taken body hits, and the angel knows the Corporeal Song of Healing, it is dissonant not to use it on the human. CHOIR ATTUNEMENTS Seraphim: Having the closest connection of all angels to the Highest, Seraphim casting the Celestial song of Healing on a target may add their Celestial Forces to the check digit when determining the result. Cherubim: It is a spinoff of the cherub's devotion to their attunements that all cherubim add their Corporeal Forces to the check digit of any successful Corporeal Song of Healing used on a human. Ofanim: Ofanim may use their energies to speed up the healing process. For every 1 Essence spent, the target heals damage as if 1 full day had passed. Elohim: As the angels most closely attuned to the emotions of humans, Elohim may add their Ethereal Forces to the check digit of a successful Ethereal Song of Healing. Malakim: There are no Malakim serving Raphael, they do not seem to be oriented to the mindset required as a healer. "I hit you now!" Kyriotates: Kyriotates of Healing are the most fanatical about human health, so much so that it has become a major part of their minds. Hosts of the Kyriotates heal one extra body hit per day, until the Kyrio leaves. Mercurians: Mercurians receive 12 free points at character creation, which they can spend on a role related to the medical profession (GP, vet, ambulance driver, etc). They may also use these points to buy relevant skills, such as Medicine. SERVITOR ATTUNEMENTS Healing Hands: The angel may transfer any Corporeal, Ethereal or Celestial damage from his target (who must be touched by the angel) onto himself. This costs 1 Essence per damage type transferred (not damage POINT). Faith Healer: By laying hands on a human, the angel can cure the target of any affliction, such as disease, the effects of drug overdose, even removing alcohol from the body. This costs 3 Essence upon a successful Will roll. DISTINCTIONS Vassal of Well-Being: the angel may tell at a glance (sucessful Perception roll) if the target is suffering from any illness, from headaches through to diabetes, etc. Friend of Faithful Cures: The angel can imbue the target with a feeling of great health. The target gains the angel's Corporeal Forces in Body hits for d6 hours. This ability can only be used once per day. Master of the Heavenly Balm: The angel may restore Forces lost due to Soul Hits, provided that the force was lost not more than one week ago. This requires the expenditure of 5 Essence, and a successful Will roll. RELATIONS Raphael has always allied himself closely to the more peaceful Archangels, but is still associated with Gabriel and Micheal, perhaps more out of a sense of cameraderie, having been among the first angels created by God. he has always shown great disdain to the more warlike angels, particularly Dominic, who Raphael sees as an unconscionable bully. Allied: Novalis, Blandine Associated: Michael, Eli, Gabriel Hostile: Laurence, David, Dominic RITES * Sleep in the Children's Ward of a hospital for four hours * Teach a human the importance of the wellbeing of fellow humans. CHANCE OF INVOCATION: 2 +1 A packet of aspirin +2 A wheelchair +3 Holding a medical bag used by a doctor on his rounds +4 In an Intensive Care ward +5 Holding an organ prepared for transplant (heart, etc) +6 Successfully performing open-heart surgery (or similarly dangerous operation) Hope you like him... - -Kurt "Kill yourself now, and avoid the rush" TISM ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 09:46:09 +0100 From: nsm1@ukc.ac.uk Subject: Re: IN> More ramblings about smoking/disturbance... >From: "Iota (Tom Wenisch)" > Indirect effects raise another good question. The rules and stories in the >book make it quite clear that a celestial can ask/manipulate/even strong arm >mundanes into doing "disturbing" things for them without causing disturbance. >Where is the line between directly causing and indirectly causing? This was the point I was trying to make earlier. In one adventure I have planned, I have (perhaps ill advisedly so) the PCs trying to >Can a celestial write a virus to take down >international computer networks? In my adventure (this actually happens) this would be considered the same as if the celestial created say a firearm: a) If he/she creates the firearm but nothing is done with it and it is destroyed then there is no disturbance. b) If he/she creates the firearm and uses it then there is a disturbance in proportion to the effect. c) If a human creates the weapon and the celestial uses it again, a disturbance. >What if a human wrote the virus, but the >celestial planted it in a key location? This is the clincher. I'm hesitant to say what would happen but if forced to I'd be inclined to say that it wouldn't cause a great disturbance. Human's have free will it would eventually be up to a human whether to or whether not to use the virus/weapon. This would then be part of the Symphony. Naveed ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 07:16:31 -0500 (CDT) From: rogue@ez-net.com (RogueLdr) Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #166 [snip Death's foreign language gender] The French Revolution's guillotine, a very common symbol of Death then, was considered feminine. As for the French language, I'm not sure.... [snip songs for IN] OK, I already feel bad about saying this, so I'll only do it once... Litheroy, Archangel of Relevations: 'You Ain't Seen Nothing yet' -Bachman Turner Overdrive - -Rogue, who sends his deepest apologies for that one ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 09:02:44 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Immediate aftermath of the Fall; the law of threes On May 12, 11:15pm, Anca Mosoiu wrote: > Subject: Re: IN> Immediate aftermath of the Fall; the law of threes > Hi there - > > I've just joined the list, so hopefully I'm not getting dug into an old > topic... > > I rather like to think that perhaps the pagan gods helped out the demons > when the Fall happened. After all, they were probably not too thrilled at > the prospect of humanity thinking that it could achieve perfection, nor at > the idea that there is "one God" out there. > > It would explain why they were "purified" nearly out of existence, and why > Beleth seems to feel fine about letting them stay in her Realm. Now that's an interesting point. No one has mention, yet, what the spirits thought about the Fall, much less what they might have done about it. My guess is that some helped, some hindered and some stayed neutral (as per usual). Of course, I don't even know if spirits _existed_ at the time of the fall. The timeline of the evolution of the universe still has some blank spots. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | "A fundamental principle of economics is that the | | more you tax something, the less you get of it. | | In this country we tax success most of all." | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 09:00:09 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> More ramblings about smoking/disturbance... > If a celestial kills a human, clearly this causes disturbance. As a matter > of fact, this causes a great deal of disturbance. If a celestial knocks down > a wall, this causes distubance too. Now, is this disturbance due to the fact > that some human might discover the wall has been knocked down, and thus alter > the reality that human perceives, or is it due to the objective change to > reality? Is it the people or the reality that matters? If this same wall were > 3 miles down in the ocean where no human could ever observe the change to the > world, would there still be disturbance? If an angel knocks down a tree in the woods with no one to hear does it make Noise? ;) In answer, yes. The trick is that _everything_ in the Symphony on earth has a certain path it is following. Things that are 'outside' disturb the natural order, whether there are humans around or not. Even if there were NO humans on earth, a demon blasting a dog would cause Disturbance. > Can a celestial cause disturbance while Ethereal/Dream Walking? I'd say no unless something was damaged in the process. > The rules seem to indicate that if a celestial changes reality from how it > otherwise would have been, this causes disturbance. What if an angel does > something which makes them the direct cause of something which was inevitable > to occur anyway? Does it matter if there interference hastens something by > a millisecond? A second? A minute? An hour? Nothing is 'inevitable', especially with those Celestials wandering around! ;) If the GM can pinpoint that a Celestial's actions have caused something to be damaged, s/he can assign noise to that act. Most choose not to get TOO picky. My rule of thumb is that only direct, volitional acts count. If you manhandle a human and use them as a weapon (as featured in quite a few gun-slinging actions movies) then Disturbance is caused. > Indirect effects raise another good question. The rules and stories in the > book make it quite clear that a celestial can ask/manipulate/even strong arm > mundanes into doing "disturbing" things for them without causing disturbance. > Where is the line between directly causing and indirectly causing? Can a > celestial drug a mundane and then cause them to do something? Could the > grab the mundanes arm and swing his arm? (technically, the mundane is doing > the action, the celestial is just moving the mundane's body...) What about > in the world of computers? Can a celestial write a virus to take down > international computer networks? What if a human wrote the virus, but the > celestial planted it in a key location? This would seem like a great activity > for a demon of technology to be doing. Does it cause disturbance? > If it does, where (computer networks are not very centralized...) I'm still iffy about whether crashing a computer is 'harming' it for the purpose of Disturbance. I'm leaning toward no at the moment. Not to try to cheese my way out of an answer, but this may very well be a GM's call. What's being destroyed? Information. How much Body does information have? ;) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | "A fundamental principle of economics is that the | | more you tax something, the less you get of it. | | In this country we tax success most of all." | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 08:09:30 -0500 (CDT) From: Donald G Bixler Subject: Re: IN> Impudite Imbalance? I was just reviewing some of the resonance mechanics, and couldn't help but notice that Impudites seem to have a harder time using their innate abilities than everyone else, demon or angel. The Impudite's attempt to invoke his resonance has a penalty equal to the target's Etherial and Celestial forces and the target can resist with a Will roll even if the demon is successful. To add to that, over half of the angels (Cherub, Elohim, Kyriotate, and Mercurian), will get a Perception roll as well as the Will roll. The angel gets a bonus to the perception roll equal to the Impudites forces minus the check digit of the resonance roll, meaning that the average PC demon will give at least a +3 to the angel's Perception roll!! (9 Forces - a CD of 6 = 3) As comparison, under GM modifiers, a +2 is suggested for a "Very Easy" task. If the Perception roll is successful, even if the Will roll failed, the angel immediately identifies the Impudite as such and prevents any essence from being taken. Additionally, if the Perception roll is made, the angel may, in his next action, invoke his Choir's resonance upon the Impudite as if they were touching, no matter the distance. This seems rather imbalanced to me. Any counterpoints, suggested house rules, or explanations? Oops da Ogre, member Celestial Society for Prevention of Cruelty to Impudites mudgb4@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 09:25:27 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Immediate aftermath of the Fall; the law of threes Anca Mosoiu wrote: I rather like to think that perhaps the pagan gods helped out the demons when the Fall happened. A very traditional view of the pagan gods -- traditional within all three major monotheistic religions -- is that they ARE demons, masquerading as gods. (This coexists with another view, a bit more reinforced by the Bible, that pagan gods are just evil make-believe.) The IN world could probably support all three models: some beings known as "pagan gods" are Ethereals, some are Celestials, some are just misunderstanding and rumor on the part of humans. Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 14:52:49 +0100 () From: "David.Evans" Subject: IN> Revelations Cycle Hi everybody, I've seen on the Daily Illuminator that release of Night Music will be further delayed <*sigh!*>, but that it will (or so the IN news section says) stil be coming out in June. Better late than never... but can anybody tell me roughly (or possibly even exactly?) *when* in June? Also, if Night Music is out in June, will The Marches till be coming out in June, too? Moriah? Mr Karakesh? Steve? Anyone??? Be seeing you... David, whose Word is Impatience with delays of wanted In Nomine supplements... :-( ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 08:47:55 -0500 (CDT) From: Brian Emord Subject: Re: IN> More ramblings about smoking/disturbance... Let me take a crack at this noise/explanation thing: Let's envision a full orchestra playing forever. Now each little player in this orchestra plays their own single _NOTE_. Now if you were to walk through the orchestra and just punch one of the players in the face it will A) have the noise of you hitting him (minimal) B) have the noise of him no longer playing (depending on instrument this could be minimal to an enormous loss) and C) the noise of him complaining of getting hit. You get the same results if you use a sniper rifle and pick off selected member of the orchestra. And depending on how observant the audience is they will or will not be able to notice. Now let's extrapolate into the real world but rather than a very large number of players, _EVERYTHING_ is a player. The trees, the grass, little fish, sheep, and yes even mimes are part of this. Now the same would hold true in the previous example. Someone outside the orchestra (a celestial of some kind) interferes with the 'notes' that are being played. Okay fine a blade of grass getting squished was playing a kazoo and the air is gently tapping on a triangle, no big notice if they are interrupted. But that damn human blowing on the tuba or playing the bass or some other such instrument, well that is missed from the orchestra. Okay maybe this isn't the way that they planned it, maybe you don't like it, but it seems feasible to me, and my players still refer to various parts of the natural world in relation to an instrument. Brian Emord Balseraph of Astaroth Whose word is poorly written 3000 page textbooks that have no bearing on the class they were written for. Recently shortened to Mathbooks --* BEGIN GEEKCODE BLOCK *-- GCS/E d+>++ s+:+ a? C+++(++++)$ UBLAHS++$ P+++$ L++ E+ W++ N o K++ w O++ M-->--- V-- PS(++) PE(+)(-) Y+ PGP- t+@ 5+@ X R+(+++)* tv- b++>+++ DI+++$ D G++ e(*)>++++ h+(*) r++>+++ y+ - --* END GEEKCODE BLOCK *-- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 10:20:30 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Immediate aftermath of the Fall Christopher Paul wrote: "Heaven is perfect and wonderful. Those misguided fools have behaved so poorly that they are no longer worthy. We will Kick Them Out. What punishment beyond that is meaningful or necessary? How sad would you be if you got Kicked Out of Heaven? Beyond that, why should one be hostile to them? Hostility is not the angelic nature. Pity seems more appropriate." Faustus: How is it that thou art out of hell? Mephistopheles: Why, this is hell, nor am I out of it. Hell is not circumstribed in one self place, but where we are is hell, and where hell is, there must we ever be. Think you not that I, who tasted the eternal joys of heaven and saw the face of God, am not tormented with ten thousand hells to thus be deprived of everlasting bliss? - -- Christopher Marlowe, "Dr. Faustus" (more or less, running on memory) Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 10:27:08 -0400 (EDT) From: The Quixotic Ninja Subject: Re: IN> the law of threes... > Hail Eris! All Hail Discordia!! Heh... this reminds me. In all this talk about which various pagan gods are aligned with who, I wonder where *Eris* wound up. (Hey, I could see Janus or Gabriel taking her in... or Lilith. ;) - -- John Trussell truss@gweep.net ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 10:32:22 -0400 (EDT) From: The Quixotic Ninja Subject: Re: IN> Impudite Imbalance? > This seems rather imbalanced to me. Any counterpoints, suggested > house rules, or explanations? Here's one, purely off-the-cuff: Essence is a *very* valuable commodity to a Celestial, so the ability to siphon it out of other beings is a powerful ability indeed -- and should therefore come with significant risk. The numbers you quote are, in my mind, a perfect example of why an Impudite should not attempt to use his resonance on Celestials unless he *has* to. Humans are easier targets, and there seem to be plenty of them milling about... - -- John Trussell truss@gweep.net ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 10:22:26 -0400 (EDT) From: The Quixotic Ninja Subject: Re: IN> Immediate aftermath of the Fall; the law of threes > Now that's an interesting point. No one has mention, yet, what > the spirits thought about the Fall, much less what they might have > done about it. My guess is that some helped, some hindered and some > stayed neutral (as per usual). Of course, I don't even know if > spirits _existed_ at the time of the fall. The timeline of the > evolution of the universe still has some blank spots. The concept of the pagan gods aligning themselves "en masse" with the Infernal hordes feels a bit unlikely to me. Partly because I'm not convinced that they'd see demons as any more likable than angels... but mostly because I'd think that if they *had* helped out Lucifer's troops, I would expect that they'd be in a little better position by now. JK's opinion seems to mesh with what's in the sourcebook... there are certainly a number of pagan gods that *did* decide to align with Beleth, but there are also a bunch still floating around as Ethereal wild cards in the Far Marches. Admittedly, I'm biased -- it's *necessary* for me to keep pagan politics in my campaign as complex as Celestial politics, since all four of my confirmed players are of the "heathen" variety, and will want to keep tabs on such things. (Did I mention I'm *really* hoping _The Marches_ manages to come out on schedule? My life will become a lot easier after I get that book... :) As for the question of whether the pagan gods even existed at the time of the Fall, well... for my campaign, I'm probably going to file that away with the other Unanswerable Questions. The people who know either aren't talking (Yahweh, Yves) or can't be trusted to give an unbiased answer (Dominic, the pagan gods themselves). Let the players try and figure it out... ;) - -- John Trussell truss@gweep.net ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 10:36:12 -0500 (CDT) From: "Jared P. Buntain" Subject: Re: IN> Too Much Music?? > In order to prevent this Belethian dilemma, here are some suggested > guidelines: Heh, this will make my job easier, but to say what Ive been doing: I have not edited any suggestion at all, I leave it to the submitter to explain why a song "fits". Thus, I am trying to include the descriptions where those where given. I am spliting the web page into two parts: Songs that fit due to lyrical content and songs that are thematically appropriate. This is because of the "Thousands of songs" problem, and also to allow those people who only want background instrumentals to easily find them. In _general_ if the only lure for a song is its lyrics, Im not including a sound file, as why it was choosen should be obvious. Anything posted to the list should eventually make its way to the web page, which is nearly ready for review. Anything sent to me privately can also make its way on to the web page. Both are limited by time constraints :). So, if you just _gotta_ suggest one more song, mail it to me privately. Lets keep Moriah happy! > Moriah > IN NOMINE List Manager Jared Buntain chandley@nwu.edu www.cauce.org: Because its the right thing to do! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 11:10:43 -0500 (CDT) From: Thany Subject: IN> Stupid musical question Which AA/DP would "Alice's Restaurant" be most suited for? (Sorry. I did all I could to warn you.) - -- "When asked how a 17-year-old boy could have committed a crime that happened over two decades ago, a police spokesman said, quote: He's very clever." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 12:01:12 -0400 (EDT) From: "Paul F. Strack" Subject: Re: IN> Celestial Disturbances On Tue, 13 May 1997, Walt Mazur wrote: > >Assume that the GM know nothing at all about the angels of the city, > >except for a general idea of their local population density. No Forces, > >no Perception, nothing, nada, nilch :) > > Putting aside the point that GMs are omniscient in their own worlds, ok. :) Another excellent table! > Philosophically, I very much agree with your thrust to simplify disturbance > perception. I'm just pointing out that the effect of higher level > celestials is very significant, even overwhelming for low disturbances. I am aware of that. I sort of hope that the random element was random enough to take all of that into account. I figured that high Perception Celestials are fairly rare, and that the "average" figures would skew things to much. I didn't really want to get to a very complex level of computation. Otherwise it defeats the purpose of a simple Disturbance Responce system. I'm tempted to keep arguing with you. If you keep producing nice tables like this, it might be worth the effort :) Paul Paul Strack | Madness takes its toll. pfstrack@math.unc.edu | Please have exact change. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ World of Darkness Page - http://www.math.unc.edu/Grads/pfstrack/wod.html In Nomine Page: INC2 - http://www.math.unc.edu/Grads/pfstrack/innom/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 10:50:47 -0500 (CDT) From: Scott Johnson Subject: Re: IN> the law of threes... On Tue, 13 May 1997, The Quixotic Ninja wrote: > > Hail Eris! All Hail Discordia!! > > Heh... this reminds me. In all this talk about which various pagan gods > are aligned with who, I wonder where *Eris* wound up. > > (Hey, I could see Janus or Gabriel taking her in... or Lilith. ;) Yeah, but can you honestly see her going to them for help? Or, if she did do so on a whim, can you honestly see the hierarchies of Heaven or Hell accepting her for any length of time whatsoever? She'd likely clash with Asmodeus and Dominic instantly, which is not a good long-term recipe for survival. I personally think she's still hanging out in the Ethereal Realms, doing as she pleases for the most part, and slowly getting strength back. She's actually got her own religion, after all, and a fair number of followers - and while they're not exactly the most serious of religions, or the most serious of followers, they probably count for *something*... (Actually, that's one of the topics that's always interested me: some of the Old Gods still do have worshippers - does that have any effect on them? Eris has the Discordians, some of the old Norse and Celtic gods have various branches of modern Wicca-related creeds, and the Shinto kami have most of the nation of Japan - does that give them more power than, say, the old Greek gods, who nowadays are rarely taken as anything more than guest stars on the next episode of Xena?) - -- Scott Johnson | zagyg@io.com | This space intentionally left blank. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 12:18:21 -0400 (EDT) From: "Paul F. Strack" Subject: Re: IN> Immediate aftermath of the Fall; the law of threes > Anca Mosoiu wrote: > I rather like to think that perhaps the pagan gods helped out the > demons when the Fall happened. I prefer to think that the Pagan gods barely even noticed the fall. Either (a) they didn't exist yet or (b) they were at the height of their own power, and paid very little attention to what went on in Heaven. Paul Strack | Madness takes its toll. pfstrack@math.unc.edu | Please have exact change. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ World of Darkness Page - http://www.math.unc.edu/Grads/pfstrack/wod.html In Nomine Page: INC2 - http://www.math.unc.edu/Grads/pfstrack/innom/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 12:58:59 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Roles >>>Does anyone else think that this is a good use of Roles?<<< No. I think a Role does not actually alter the fact of whether or not a disturbance took place, but whether the Symphony reacts to it as a "natural" event. Having a Role not only cloak a celestial's actions, but cause the Symphony to misdirect other celestials, would be making it too powerful. If you want to set off the Symphony when you get punched by a Malakite, buy Asmodeus's "Humanity" Attunement. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 12:47:40 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Impudite Imbalance? On May 13, 8:09am, Donald G Bixler wrote: > Subject: Re: IN> Impudite Imbalance? > I was just reviewing some of the resonance mechanics, and > couldn't help but notice that Impudites seem to have a harder time using > their innate abilities than everyone else, demon or angel. An Impudite's Resonance might just not be made to be used against other Celestials. Against your typical human, they work pretty well. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | "A fundamental principle of economics is that the | | more you tax something, the less you get of it. | | In this country we tax success most of all." | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 12:49:30 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Revelations Cycle On May 13, 2:52pm, David.Evans wrote: > Subject: IN> Revelations Cycle > Hi everybody, > > I've seen on the Daily Illuminator that release of Night Music will be > further delayed <*sigh!*>, but that it will (or so the IN news section > says) stil be coming out in June. Better late than never... but can > anybody tell me roughly (or possibly even exactly?) *when* in June? > Also, if Night Music is out in June, will The Marches till be coming out > in June, too? Moriah? Mr Karakesh? Steve? Anyone??? Official Policy: No one says a word until the Big Cheese (hiya Steve!) gives a date. It'll be on the Daily Illuminator as fast as anyone knows for certain. Steve got enough flack about the lateness of IN that he is being cautious about other schedules. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | "A fundamental principle of economics is that the | | more you tax something, the less you get of it. | | In this country we tax success most of all." | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 10:14:23 -0400 From: Anca Mosoiu Subject: IN> Re: How might the fall have happened? At 10:22 AM 5/13/97 -0400, John Trussel wrote: >The concept of the pagan gods aligning themselves "en masse" with the >Infernal hordes feels a bit unlikely to me. Partly because I'm not >convinced that they'd see demons as any more likable than angels... but I wasn't trying to say that ALL of the pagan gods would help the fall along, since they are as varied as you might be able to come up with. I was mostly trying to say that's where Lucifer's armies might have found allies. Although you can make a case for Lilith, who was royally dissed by god, providing lots of assistance through her ability to "convince" people/things to help her. Hmm. >mostly because I'd think that if they *had* helped out Lucifer's troops, I >would expect that they'd be in a little better position by now. Well, that's assuming that Lucifer was willing to share his realm with things that he has no way of predicting. He is very good at predicting the actions and feelings of the celestials, but it might be hard for him to control his "allies". >JK's opinion seems to mesh with what's in the sourcebook... there are >certainly a number of pagan gods that *did* decide to align with Beleth, but >there are also a bunch still floating around as Ethereal wild cards in the >Far Marches. There will certainly be pagan gods around in my universe (and not just in the Marches, either), and they will certainly be attempting to change things in their own way. Some might be allied with angels like Novalis or Eli, some with Lucifer, and some will simply not care about the "eternal struggle between good and evil", since these are not fundamental concepts in the face of their universe. Besides, if the humans just DON'T CARE about Heaven or Hell, it will be rather hard for either side to collect the Essence they seem to be so hungry for. Anca ammist@sinewave.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 12:58:53 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Malakim Honour I'd say that most Superiors, most definitely including Archangel Michael, would have a few unpleasant things to say to a Malakite who interprets his commands in such a literal manner that his Servitor willfully corrupts the spirit of his mission in order to fulfill the letter of his orders. - -David ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #167 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.