From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue May 13 23:12:42 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA17229 for ; Tue, 13 May 1997 23:12:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA08489 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 13 May 1997 22:04:26 -0500 Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 22:04:26 -0500 Message-Id: <199705140304.WAA08489@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #168 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, May 13 1997 Volume 01 : Number 168 In this digest: IN> Celestial Population Density IN> Anybody Heard About... Re: IN> Word Frequency Re: IN> the law of threes... Re: IN> Impudite Imbalance? Re: IN> Celestial Disturbances IN> Essence and the nature of reality Re: IN> Islam and IN Re: IN> the law of threes... Re: IN> Impudite Imbalance? Re: IN> Essence and the nature of reality Re: IN> the law of threes... Re: IN> Essence and the nature of reality Re: IN> Essence and the nature of reality Re: IN> Essence and the nature of reality Re: IN> Celestial Disturbances Re: IN> Impudite Imbalance? Re: IN> Celestial Disturbances IN> Impudites, Revelations, Raphael Re: IN> Essence and the nature of reality Re: IN> Celestial Disturbances Re: IN> Know Your Diabolicals #14 Litheroy Angel of Revelations. Re: IN> Sharing Identities Re: IN> various in-nomine questions Re: IN> Demons Smoking... Re: IN> Impudite Imbalance? Re: IN> Celestial Disturbances IN> Kyriotate of Michael Re: IN> Essence and the nature of reality ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 12:58:56 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Celestial Population Density >>>It would vary; a good rule of thumb would be probably one per 100000, depending on importance of the city, evenly split between up and down<<< I disagree that it would be evenly split; Hell has always gone for quantity over quality, which means there will usually be more demons than angels. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 12:26:22 -0500 From: tom timberlake Subject: IN> Anybody Heard About... just looking back over the "old" listings and clearing out my mailbox, ran across the IN CCG postings--anybody heard anything _definitive_ about this? On the subject of the Angel of Water, the Seraphim of Jordi are all generally to be found in amphib. or marine vessels, living out there earthly vessel's lifespan in, around, or under the water, so maybe the Most High figured a distinct AA of Water was unnecessary. Alternatively, Amber L. Wolf(e?), in "The Shadow Of The Shaman", speaks of Gabriel as the AA of the West, whose element is Water and whose symbol/badge is the horns of the crescent moon, and no, he does not blow on these horns! Noted in passing: fire is south, whose AA is Michael! there you go, 1AA with a flaming sword! tom timb. "...a little bit of this, a little bit of that..." Fiddler on the Roof, "Anatevka" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 12:36:00 -0500 From: tom timberlake Subject: Re: IN> Word Frequency As regards Sword as the Word of Laurence, it seems to me that Sword was meant in the same way Musashi used it--paraphrastic quote from memory:a master bowman is given the title of Archer, but a Master Swordsman is known as a Tactician/quote off. This is how I would treat Sword--a weapon of honor, wielded in a just cause, in a tactically sound way, so as to bring about victory for your side, regardless of the personal costs. I would be willing to reconsider if someone who can actually find their copy of "The Book of 5 Rings" were to tell me that my memory is screwed. tom t. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 12:59:03 -0500 (CDT) From: Donald G Bixler Subject: Re: IN> the law of threes... > Heh... this reminds me. In all this talk about which various pagan gods > are aligned with who, I wonder where *Eris* wound up. I would say that she stayed independant and recently managed to start her own worship back up in a very quiet manner, although Jean or Vapula may have noticed. (Whether or not they take it seriously...) > (Hey, I could see Janus or Gabriel taking her in... or Lilith. ;) I can't see her allying herself either of the first two, and only as an equal with Lilith. > John Trussell > truss@gweep.net Oops da Ogre, who's a bit biased since he's a Discordian. Fnord. mudgb4@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 13:19:02 -0500 (CDT) From: Donald G Bixler Subject: Re: IN> Impudite Imbalance? > An Impudite's Resonance might just not be made to be used > against other Celestials. Against your typical human, they > work pretty well. That sounds pretty reasonable, but it's just that not even the Mercurians have their resonance limited to humans. The resonances of the other celestials don't make special rules for whether the target is Celestial or human, with the exception of Malakim detecting Balseraphs and Habbalah affecting Elohim. Others don't have such limits. For example, a Shedim has no similar penalties when trying to possess a body, whether it's housing a soul that's human, angel, or demon. Likewise, a Calabim's victim does get a Strength (or Will if Celestial damage) roll to resist the damage, but doesn't get penalties, nor does an angelic target get two chances or special rules to backlash against the demon. > |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | Oops da Ogre, still not convinced. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 03:04:02 EST From: temujin09@juno.com (Nathaniel P Eliot) Subject: Re: IN> Celestial Disturbances >I see one difficulty with this. The average celestial may have three >celestial forces (or may not since ethereal forces seem least useful). Actually, ethereal forces determine precision, which determines gun accuracy. Need I say more? ============================================================= | | | /\ | | Nathaniel Eliot | Chaos, Discord, and the | / \ | | temujin09@juno.com | Illuminated Way | / <> \ | | | | /______\ | ============================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 11:35:51 -0700 From: Rob Coon Subject: IN> Essence and the nature of reality First off, I'm testing out a new mailer, my apologies if this message appears skrewy. Okay, I'm beginning to wonder about In Nomine and the structure of reality, specifically the nature of belief. It seems like a lot of posts assume that belief in God/spirits/other actually affects them one way or another. Is this mentioned somewhere that I've just missed? (Wouldn't surprise me, as I managed to overlook the line stating Michael to be a Seraph when I was looking for his choir...) Second, is there some conflict over Essence -- Do the sides of the battle need humans for their Essence? This seems to conflict with my idea of the game -- I thought the Archangels had Essence out the yin-yang for all intents and purposes, but were sparing with it, for undisclosed reasons, and the value of Humanity came from it being the most complex and seemingly important part of God's Creation. Rob Coon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 03:13:53 EST From: temujin09@juno.com (Nathaniel P Eliot) Subject: Re: IN> Islam and IN >As the angel of nitpicking rears its ugly head again: > Actually, the only White Wolf game to match the Noun: the Gerund > pattern is Changeling: the Dreaming. Magic: the Gathering fits > too. But, I like using the abbreviation, too, so I won't complain > any further Personally, Monster: the Abstract Noun works better, and is more specific to Pale Puppy. YMMV, and probably will. ============================================================= | | | /\ | | Nathaniel Eliot | Chaos, Discord, and the | / \ | | temujin09@juno.com | Illuminated Way | / <> \ | | | | /______\ | ============================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 15:11:35 -0400 (EDT) From: The Quixotic Ninja Subject: Re: IN> the law of threes... > > (Hey, I could see Janus or Gabriel taking [Eris] in... or Lilith. ;) > > I can't see her allying herself either of the first two, and > only as an equal with Lilith. Oh, I can see the first two, given the proper circumstances. Janus' hatred for the status quo would probably be enough to at least get him to *listen* to a proposal... and if you catch Gabriel in the right mood, *anything's* possible. Given the capricious nature of all parties involved, any alliance would be of short duration, I suspect... but it'd be eventful. Lilith slapping a Geas/6 on Eris... eek. I'm not sure I want to think about the potential consequences of such a thing. :) - -- John Trussell truss@gweep.net ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 15:23:36 -0400 From: "Kirt A. Dankmyer -- aka Loki" Subject: Re: IN> Impudite Imbalance? > The resonances of the other celestials don't make special rules >for whether the target is Celestial or human, with the exception of >Malakim detecting Balseraphs and Habbalah affecting Elohim. Others >don't have such limits. For example, a Shedim has no similar penalties >when trying to possess a body, whether it's housing a soul that's human, >angel, or demon. Likewise, a Calabim's victim does get a Strength (or >Will if Celestial damage) roll to resist the damage, but doesn't get >penalties, nor does an angelic target get two chances or special rules >to backlash against the demon. Except that the resonance has something to do with Essence -- the "Celestial Currency", as it were. Celestials understand, can deal with, and swizzle Essence from the moment they're "born". Humans, on the other hand, have to be taught to use their Essence consciously or well. With that sort of background, it makes sense for me that it would be harder to such Essence out of a Celestial than a human. Humans don't know how to protect themselves from that sort of attack. Even Soldiers aren't natural enough at it to do anything against an Impudite. Think of it this way -- it's not really a penalty for sucking Essence out of a Celestial, it's a bonus for sucking Essence out of a human. It's just easier to phrase the mechanic the other way around. -Loki - -- Kirt "Loki" Dankmyer PGP key avail. My opinions are my own. love * Eris * RPGs * Anime * Magick * Carroll * techno * hats * cats * Dada I waked, she fled, and day brought back my night. --Milton ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 15:37:41 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Essence and the nature of reality Rob Coon wrote: > Okay, I'm beginning to wonder about In Nomine and the structure of > reality, specifically the nature of belief. It seems like a lot of > posts assume that belief in God/spirits/other actually affects them > one way or another. Is this mentioned somewhere that I've just > missed? There is nothing about this in the IN book, no. It's just a very common, very old idea in modern fantasy literature. Terry Pratchett uses it a lot in his "Discworld" series, and I recall Fritz Leiber applied it to the gods of Nehwon. I suppose it goes back at least as far as Peter Pan asking the children to clap if they believe in fairies. A similar belief is also fundamental to "Mage: The Ascension," a role-playing game of the "Whosis: The Whatsit" group. Something like it may apply to the natives of the Marches, who may be literally dreamed up by humans. We'll have to wait and see. > Second, is there some conflict over Essence -- Do the sides of the > battle need humans for their Essence? Impudites and some others can tap humans for Essence, but that is only one of several ways of getting it. For instance, all angels acquire some automatically at sunrise, and all demons acquire some at sunset. Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 15:53:26 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> the law of threes... Somehow, I think Eris and Lilith are too much alike to get along. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 15:40:25 -0400 (EDT) From: The Quixotic Ninja Subject: Re: IN> Essence and the nature of reality > Okay, I'm beginning to wonder about In Nomine and the structure of > reality, specifically the nature of belief. It seems like a lot of > posts assume that belief in God/spirits/other actually affects them one > way or another. Is this mentioned somewhere that I've just missed? > (Wouldn't surprise me, as I managed to overlook the line stating Michael > to be a Seraph when I was looking for his choir...) As far as I can tell (and someone will surely correct me if I'm wrong -- I also fear I may have missed a few key passages), belief in a Celestial or Ethereal being does not have any *direct* effects on that C/E. However... > Second, is there some conflict over Essence -- Do the sides of the > battle need humans for their Essence? This seems to conflict with my > idea of the game -- I thought the Archangels had Essence out the > yin-yang for all intents and purposes, but were sparing with it, for > undisclosed reasons, and the value of Humanity came from it being the > most complex and seemingly important part of God's Creation. ...although what you say may be true, humans are a convenient supply of *extra* essence, if you have the ability to siphon it away from them. I'm not convinced that Archangels have Essence "out the yin-yang," just more of it than their Servitors... and, were there actually stats for them, probably more Forces than a standard-issue angel could possess. For the pagan gods (geez, how did I get myself into every pagan god discussion? :) living in the Marches, who don't *have* an Archangel to get Essence from, Essence may *only* be available if offered to them (via some sort of ritual) by willing human followers. In that sense, belief in a pagan god could have an *indirect* affect on that god. A few new questions that occur to me as I write this: 1. Do pagan gods (or other spirits, Ethereal or otherwise) ever regenerate essence automatically, the way angels/demons/humans do at sunrise/sunset/noon? 2. An angel that promotes his Word effectively enough gains power -- gain enough, and he becomes an Archangel. Is it possible, if that Archangel's Word loses enough influence later on, for him to be "demoted" to a normal angel again, or even (if the Word wanes through willful neglect) for him to lose his Word entirely? I doubt it happens much (especially the latter), but even the possibility of such an occurrence could create an air of desperation in an Archangel whose Word is sufficiently waning... 3. If a Word-bound angel Falls (or if a Word-bound demon goes Bright), what happens to that Celestial's Word? Does its meaning become "twisted," or is it simply lost? - -- John Trussell truss@gweep.net ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 15:36:28 -0400 (EDT) From: "Paul F. Strack" Subject: Re: IN> Essence and the nature of reality On Tue, 13 May 1997, Rob Coon wrote: > Okay, I'm beginning to wonder about In Nomine and the structure of > reality, specifically the nature of belief. It seems like a lot of > posts assume that belief in God/spirits/other actually affects them one > way or another. Is this mentioned somewhere that I've just missed? > (Wouldn't surprise me, as I managed to overlook the line stating Michael > to be a Seraph when I was looking for his choir...) My general impression from Moriah and John Karakash is that officially, human belief has no immediate effect on reality. In Nomine is not Mage: the Ascension. My *personal* feeling is that belief effects spirits, but in very subtle ways. More to the point, worship and the Essence it generates affects spirits. Spirits are "tainted" by the type of Essence they absorb and it slowly changes them over time. This is especially true of Ethereal spirits and pagan gods, but may apply to Hell or even Heaven as well. There is a feed-back loop here as well: spirits also encourage those sorts of activities and worship that feeds their Word. This reinforces a spirit's nature. Sudden shifts in human culture can throw things out of whack, though, leaving spirits scrambling for new energy and forcing them to change because of it. It is equally true that spirits can force change in humans as well, shaping them more to the spirits' liking. Neither side - either spiritual or physical - dominates. Rather, they interact in complex and dynamic ways. How much of this is true of Heaven and Hell is an open question. According to Heaven it is above such petty influences. According to the pagan gods, Heaven just got lucky and got a lot of power. The angels were once different from what they are now, but they no longer remember. Hellish propoganda tends to adopt the point of view that is most useful at the moment. > Second, is there some conflict over Essence -- Do the sides of the > battle need humans for their Essence? This seems to conflict with my > idea of the game -- I thought the Archangels had Essence out the > yin-yang for all intents and purposes, but were sparing with it, for > undisclosed reasons, and the value of Humanity came from it being the > most complex and seemingly important part of God's Creation. Hell and Ethereal spirits certainly gather Essence to use in their schemes. Both have other sources of Essence, but humanity is a big and important well of energy. What Heaven does with the Essence that it theoretically gathers is an open question. Heaven isn't obviously mining humanity for power the way Hell is, but it may be doing the same thing on a more subtle level. Paul Strack | Madness takes its toll. pfstrack@math.unc.edu | Please have exact change. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ World of Darkness Page - http://www.math.unc.edu/Grads/pfstrack/wod.html In Nomine Page: INC2 - http://www.math.unc.edu/Grads/pfstrack/innom/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 14:56:59 -0500 (CDT) From: Scott Johnson Subject: Re: IN> Essence and the nature of reality On Tue, 13 May 1997, Rob Coon wrote: > Okay, I'm beginning to wonder about In Nomine and the structure of > reality, specifically the nature of belief. It seems like a lot of > posts assume that belief in God/spirits/other actually affects them one > way or another. Is this mentioned somewhere that I've just missed? > (Wouldn't surprise me, as I managed to overlook the line stating Michael > to be a Seraph when I was looking for his choir...) > I don't think this is actually canon, just a common enough concept in mythology and fantasy novels. However, there might be some truth to it, at least in regards as where souls go after they die - after all, somehow it makes more sense to me for a truly good person who devoutly believed in the Greek gods to go to the Elysian Fields than to Heaven. Which leads into the bit below... > Second, is there some conflict over Essence -- Do the sides of the > battle need humans for their Essence? This seems to conflict with my > idea of the game -- I thought the Archangels had Essence out the > yin-yang for all intents and purposes, but were sparing with it, for > undisclosed reasons, and the value of Humanity came from it being the > most complex and seemingly important part of God's Creation. The demons definitely need human Essence - take a look at the section on Hell, specifically the parts that describe what they do with souls. Souls in Hell are used as Essence generators to fuel the Demon Princes and their schemes - the torture and suffering are mostly means to that end. It's entirely possible that a more benevolent version of such is going on in the upper reaches of Heaven, as well, though we can't be certain of that. And if a pagan god or the like could manage to get enough truly believing followers to come to their realm after death - though this might not even be possible, given the lock Heaven and Hell have on the Celestial Realm - they'd probably be able to get Essence just as steadily as Hell does, in ways appropriate to the realm. As such, I wouldn't doubt that the pagan gods - at least, those that are still interested in getting back in the game after all this time - are looking for new followers constantly, to try and eventually get enough Essence to put themselves on a level with 'the big boys.' It'd probably take something drastic to get even the more popular of them back up to that level - the Judeo-Christian-Islamic power block is a pretty strong one, even more so if you count Buddhism as one of Heaven's religions - but a god can dream, right? - -- Scott Johnson | zagyg@io.com | This space intentionally left blank. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 20:08:13 GMT From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: Re: IN> Celestial Disturbances On Tue, 13 May 1997 03:04:02 EST, temujin09@juno.com (Nathaniel P Eliot) wrote: >Actually, ethereal forces determine precision, which determines >gun accuracy. Need I say more? Good point. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 15:55:00 -0500 (CDT) From: Donald G Bixler Subject: Re: IN> Impudite Imbalance? [Delete argument that controlled Essence use is natural to Celestials and therefore more closely held.] > Think of it this way -- it's not really a penalty for sucking Essence out > of a Celestial, it's a bonus for sucking Essence out of a human. It's just > easier to phrase the mechanic the other way around. I thought of that, but it's not that there's a bonus for humans, just a lesser penalty. I figure that these rules were probAbly put in to prevent munchkins from running around zapping everything in sight, but it seems like they went overboard... > -Loki Oops da Ogre mudgb4@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 13:06:38 -0700 (MST) From: shadocat@primenet.com (Jeff Miller) Subject: Re: IN> Celestial Disturbances >On Tue, 13 May 1997 00:00:39 -0400 (EDT), "Paul F. Strack" > wrote: >>Assume that the GM know nothing at all about the angels of the city, >>except for a general idea of their local population density. No Forces, >>no Perception, nothing, nada, nilch :) > >Putting aside the point that GMs are omniscient in their own worlds, ok. :) > I think that Paul's assuming that the GM hasn't decided to create every single Celestial in the countryside. >Philosophically, I very much agree with your thrust to simplify disturbance >perception. I'm just pointing out that the effect of higher level >celestials is very significant, even overwhelming for low disturbances. >Even if the consideration is completely in the abstract, I think the GM >should consider the opposition force structure. For example, suppose the >opposition will be demons with 7 forces. If they're all forces 2/2/3 with >perception of 6, it takes 122 per square mile to get a roll of 6 for all >disturbances of level 5. But, if lookouts with forces 1/1/5 with perception >of 10 are used, it only takes 16 per square mile for the same detection >roll. > I like this idea but then you have to decide just how organized each side is in a major city. If they're embattled they may be clumped in certain areas of a city. To that end, note where the major Celestials are and use their detect range for anything in their area. Use the random chance of detection from Paul'e table if the characters aren't near one of the biggies since there's no telling who might just wander by. Also, maybe a modification to Paul's table based on the the frequency of Celestials with high Celestial Forces would work out since very few Celestials on either side are going to be standing in one spot twiddling their thumbs waiting for someone to do something. Trying to figure out the chance of a high perception Celestial is withing range of an event involves some pretty hairy and subjective calculations. >Celestial Forces 1 2 3 4 5 6 >Perception Adj. -4 -2 0 +2 +4 +6 I wish you'd gone into fractions. How else will I know how many birds it will take for my Ky., with a Celestial Forces of 5, to cover an area. -- Jeff ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 16:46:04 -0600 From: dpearcy@io.com (Derek Patton Pearcy) Subject: IN> Impudites, Revelations, Raphael Oops da Ogre wrote, concerning *Impudites* and their resonance: >This seems rather imbalanced to me. Two words: free Essence. David Evans wrote, concerning *The Revelations Cycle*: >*when* in June? Since we're about to hit the middle of May, it should be out in late June, if in June. Books take a month to print. Once the Daily Illuminator (www.sjgames.com/ill) says that Night Music's gone to the printer, expect it in five weeks (a month to print and a week to ship), as many as six if your hobby store isn't close to a distributor. Keep in mind that I'm no longer an SJ Games employee, and have no inside knowledge about how the book is going. I'm merely telling you how long it takes for a book to be printed and shipped under most conditions. As long as you're at the SJ Games website, hit the Night Music page to see the book's opening vignette. (If everything works out correctly, you should get to know the story's characters as you progress through the book, but this'll give you a quick primer on In Nomine Austin.) The Marches has been written, and is awaiting art/layout. Bringing everyone up to date, this is the ethereal world sourcebook, with expanded info on ethereal spirits and expanded write-ups on the Blandine/Beleth and Gabriel/Belial duos, being the two Superiors whose servants hold the most animosity for each other. This bodes well for a summer release. Heaven and Hell is mostly written, being the Yves/Kronos and Dominic/Asmodeus expansion as well as introducing Zadkiel (AA of Protection) and Mammon (AA of Greed). Expect it out fairly soon on the heels of The Marches. The point is, as SJ Games gets caught up on their In Nomine duties, they'll have a couple books practically finished and backed up in the queue, which'll be great for you. With any luck, you could get the last three books of the cycle fairly quickly. The fourth and fifth books in the cycle are pretty well fleshed-out, but not written. People should be hitting their word processors soon on those. Unless I totally miss my guess, you guys'll appreciate where the Revelations cycle goes; it gets a little messy, but few things this fun aren't messy. I'm currently outlining the second story cycle and doing prelim work on the first book of that series - -- it's the only one I've been just dying to work on since Day 1. (We could torture you with hints about the second cycle, and why I love it tons, but that would be cruel. I guess saying anything about it at all is cruel, but it's too late at this point.) Actually, I'm procrastinating from writing right now, and checking up on the list seemed to be the perfect way -- it's always there, megs and megs of it. La la la. Re: *Raphael* If you're a huge In Nomine fan, check out the next issue of Pyramid. Not the one that's in stores now, but the one that'll hit the stores around the end of June (with, hopefully, Night Music). It should contain my In Nomine Designer's Notes, in the form of a dialog between the angel and demon who live in my head. They leave me alone for a single evening, take my car and head out for a night on the town. I know, I feel funny hawking my own wares or whatever, but among other things I wrote up what I'd always had in my head as the story behind what happened to the missing and much asked-after Archangel, one of my personal favorites, Raphael. The story didn't end up making it into the final draft of the core rules, so you'll be able to find it here. People on the list and elsewhere have put forward several perfectly good renditions of Raphael in an attempt to answer the question of what this noteworthy soul has been doing -- he's been portrayed as an owner of various Words, most recently as the Archangel of Healing (nicely done, by the way) -- but Pyramid readers will soon suffer my vision of Raphael. Back to my other favorite Archangel, Derek ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 97 19:02 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Essence and the nature of reality >1. Do pagan gods (or other spirits, Ethereal or otherwise) ever >regenerate essence automatically, the way angels/demons/humans do at >sunrise/sunset/noon? The book actually says they do (I think it's midnight for them). >2. An angel that promotes his Word effectively enough gains power -- gain >enough, and he becomes an Archangel. Is it possible, if that Archangel's >Word loses enough influence later on, for him to be "demoted" to a normal >angel again, or even (if the Word wanes through willful neglect) for him to >lose his Word entirely? I doubt it happens much (especially the latter), >but even the possibility of such an occurrence could create an air of >desperation in an Archangel whose Word is sufficiently waning... I've been thinking that Rites probably benefit the Rite-giver with Essence, as well as the performer ("one for me, one for you"). This would easily explain a number of things, including why AAs/DPs give Rites, why a Redeemed celestial can still use old Rites (but it's *very* frowned upon), and why AAs/DPs have so much power to throw around. >3. If a Word-bound angel Falls (or if a Word-bound demon goes Bright), what >happens to that Celestial's Word? Does its meaning become "twisted," or is >it simply lost? I'd assume it's lost, though if the Fall is an example, it appears that some of the Fallen were probably granted a variant of their old Words, so a Redeemed Word-bound demon might be granted a variant new Word by the Seraphim Council, after they proved themselves. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 23:10:46 GMT From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: Re: IN> Celestial Disturbances On Tue, 13 May 1997 13:06:38 -0700 (MST), shadocat@primenet.com (Jeff Miller) wrote: >>>Assume that the GM know nothing at all about the angels of the city, >>>except for a general idea of their local population density. No Forces, >>>no Perception, nothing, nada, nilch :) >> >>Putting aside the point that GMs are omniscient in their own worlds, ok. :) >> >I think that Paul's assuming that the GM hasn't decided to create every >single Celestial in the countryside. Is such a thing possible? ;) >>disturbances of level 5. But, if lookouts with forces 1/1/5 with perception >>of 10 are used, it only takes 16 per square mile for the same detection >>roll. >> >I like this idea but then you have to decide just how organized each side is >in a major city. If they're embattled they may be clumped in certain areas >of a city. To that end, note where the major Celestials are and use their >detect range for anything in their area. Agree. >Trying to figure out the chance of a high perception Celestial is withing >range of an event involves some pretty hairy and subjective calculations. My thinking is generally that unless the disturbance gets to the level where high perception lookouts hear it, the chances of a wandering celestial hearing it are virtually nil. IOW, unless there's a story reason for an enemy celestial to be in the vicinity, the GM doesn't have an excuse to drop a random enemy in. >>Celestial Forces 1 2 3 4 5 6 >>Perception Adj. -4 -2 0 +2 +4 +6 > >I wish you'd gone into fractions. How else will I know how many birds it >will take for my Ky., with a Celestial Forces of 5, to cover an area. Well, if you saw my earlier table of par and basic ranges, you can work it out for any level of disturbance you want to detect. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 19:29:26 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Know Your Diabolicals #14 Litheroy Angel of Revelations. At 8:41 AM -0400 5/11/97, Adam Canning wrote: >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >#14: As delivered by a Servitor of Litheroy (Revelation) From the GM screen adventure that my local GM doesn't want me to read, right? Which means I probably shouldn't read *this*... Whaaaa! - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 19:07:47 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Sharing Identities At 10:54 PM +0000 5/11/97, Walt Mazur wrote: >On Sun, 11 May 1997 16:09:22 -0400 (EDT), Gregory Littmann > wrote: > >>[...] could angelic society be sufficiently paranoid >>that one would keep mum with angelic strangers rather than simply walking >>up, shaking hands and saying "Hi, I'm Bobethesh, Mercurian of Novalis, and >>in case you need them, here are my attunements..."? > >Celestials can't just look at someone and tell whether he is celestial or >which side he's on. You can't meet a demon in an angelic tether, In celestial form. Way I read it, you could have all the hosts of Hell at Notre Dame -- if they were in corporeal form at the time. Which basically means that if you haven't seen your bud in celestial form, you have no way of knowing if he's human, celestial, ethereal, or *what*... Let alone what side he's on. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 19:09:43 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> various in-nomine questions At 10:04 PM -0400 5/11/97, John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: >On May 10, 9:31am, Cymrys@aol.com wrote: >> Subject: Re: IN> various in-nomine questions >> In a message dated 10.5.97 08:55:02, you write: >> >> << Ohhhh John! I think ya got one for "Murphy's rules!" ;-) >> >> >> >> Say, are they still publishing collected Murphy's Rules books? I used to have >> one (until it got nicked), and I'd like some more, they make me grin. > > It appears in Pyramid on occasion. A book all to itself >is something that I can't predict. Murphy's Rules is a standard feature in Pyramid -- four little gems, every month... I wonder if they're going to do the "games that should not be played" version at some point? If so, I cast my vote for Karakash's INWO: In Nomine World Order. If it hasn't shown up already. I'm braindead enough today it might have and I'd forgotten. O:< - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 10:33:40 +0930 From: "Damian O'Dea" Subject: Re: IN> Demons Smoking... Hi all, John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: > On May 8, 5:40pm, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > > Demons smoking... Or angels, for that matter... Doesn't that > > generate minor disturbance? I mean, they're destroying a > > corporeal object... > > It falls below the 'background threshold' for noise > in the Symphony. In a very real sense such minor destructions > are the static in the signal... untraceable but always present. > Just as well, too. Otherwise we'd start worrying about the noise made by celestials pushing aside air molecules, etc. Makes for a really hostile environment; reality sounding warning bells all the time against celestials who "aren't meant to be there"... ODie... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 20:38:08 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Impudite Imbalance? On May 13, 3:23pm, Kirt A. Dankmyer -- aka Loki wrote: > Subject: Re: IN> Impudite Imbalance? > > The resonances of the other celestials don't make special rules > >for whether the target is Celestial or human, with the exception of > >Malakim detecting Balseraphs and Habbalah affecting Elohim. Others > >don't have such limits. For example, a Shedim has no similar penalties > >when trying to possess a body, whether it's housing a soul that's human, > >angel, or demon. Likewise, a Calabim's victim does get a Strength (or > >Will if Celestial damage) roll to resist the damage, but doesn't get > >penalties, nor does an angelic target get two chances or special rules > >to backlash against the demon. Yeah, but the ability to get more essence from a relatively easy source (all those humans) is a boon not to be lightly scorned! By the end of an adventure, most of the characters are usually panting for Essence, but an Impudite might be fresh and ready since he 'topped off his tank' in a nearby movie theater/restaurant/busstop. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | "A fundamental principle of economics is that the | | more you tax something, the less you get of it. | | In this country we tax success most of all." | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 12:28:06 GMT+10 From: "Leathal Weapon" <938269@wrpc.riv.csu.edu.au> Subject: Re: IN> Celestial Disturbances In reply to: > My thinking is generally that unless the disturbance gets to the level > where high perception lookouts hear it, the chances of a wandering > celestial hearing it are virtually nil. IMO, no earth-bound celestials are assigned simply as lookouts. In the case of demons, only the more powerful get sent to earth, and in the case of angels, only the favoured. Now occassionally their master may give them a mission of "Listen for disturbances and report", but these celestials are the special agents. More likely they are going to be given other assignments and just keep their ears open in case. They will still hear and react to disturbances, but I find the idea of earth assigned celestials being posted ayt strategic locations as 'lookouts' highly unlikely. Leath. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 16:27:32 EST From: temujin09@juno.com (Nathaniel P Eliot) Subject: IN> Kyriotate of Michael How does this attunement work? It seems to allow the angel a vessel without impinging on their ability to possess others; does it have any effect on the forces available for possession? And can it be dropped without going celestial, as the Kyriotate hosts are still available to take up the slack? ============================================================= | | | /\ | | Nathaniel Eliot | Chaos, Discord, and the | / \ | | temujin09@juno.com | Illuminated Way | / <> \ | | | | /______\ | ============================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 21:20:10 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Essence and the nature of reality > > >3. If a Word-bound angel Falls (or if a Word-bound demon goes Bright), what > >happens to that Celestial's Word? Does its meaning become "twisted," or is > >it simply lost? > > I'd assume it's lost, though if the Fall is an example, it appears that > some of the Fallen were probably granted a variant of their old Words, > so a Redeemed Word-bound demon might be granted a variant new Word by > the Seraphim Council, after they proved themselves. This is how I view it. On the other hand, I envision the Fall, with the loss of so many angels, as having shook the foundations of heaven. I think the Symphony was weakened when so many Word-bound angels Fell (approximately a third). Angels don't just support a Word, they ARE a Word. Lucifer, pragmatically, gave out Words that would best suit the fallen angel's new status... which would probably be whatever they knew best. Besides, I think that would fit his twisted sense of irony. The above is non-canon, btw. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | "A fundamental principle of economics is that the | | more you tax something, the less you get of it. | | In this country we tax success most of all." | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #168 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. 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