From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon May 19 00:23:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA04399 for ; Mon, 19 May 1997 00:23:17 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA07768 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sun, 18 May 1997 23:42:04 -0500 Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 23:42:04 -0500 Message-Id: <199705190442.XAA07768@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #175 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Sunday, May 18 1997 Volume 01 : Number 175 In this digest: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #174 IN> IN: Celestial Suicide IN> Re: Celestial Suicide IN> Angels for everything IN> Seven Deadly Lists Re: IN>Celestial Suicde Re: IN> Angels for everything IN> Celestial Hearts in literature? Re: IN>Celestial Suicde Re: IN> Angels for everything Re: IN> Re: Celestial Suicide Re: IN> Re: Celestial Suicide Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #173 Re: IN> Re: Celestial Suicide ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 19:08:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Tony Zbaraschuk Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #174 On the question of whether it's possible for a Celestial to commit suicide: Probably. Go into celestial form and start hacking at yourself, as someone phrased it. Repeat until necessary, and make sure your vessel will show up right under a steamroller or something so no remnant is left. It's probably doable. But I don't see many angels doing this sort of thing. (Demons, sure. Better to suicide then to *really* get in your Prince's bad graces and be handed over to Sade, Demon Prince of Masochism.) It's a confession of despair, saying that *no matter what*, you can't be healed of your ills, that non-existence is preferable to existence, and that there is no hope. Ever. For *any* cause. Even God can't help. For an angel, believing this is as close to Falling as makes no difference. (Note that I am speaking of angels within the world of In Nomine here, not humans on our Earth. I don't want to get into *that*.) OTOH, it does appear as if human souls can't self-destruct. (Otherwise, wouldn't most of the ones in Hell eventually do so in order to escape?) And maybe celestials can't do so either, because it's one of the things that wasn't built into them. Destroyed from the outside, sure, but not from the inside. GM call... but you've got my opinion above. Tony Z ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 20:07:19 -0600 From: Bremstrahlung X Subject: IN> IN: Celestial Suicide Salutations Interesting one this: I would say yes, that a celestial can tear apart itself celestially: I would run it as celestial attacks against yourself...Of course the only reason for running it as combat is to see what forces get completely annihilated first, leading to the possibility of becoming a remnant, etc, etc. Would a Malakite do it? Well it depends on the which Malakite, doesn't it (winks cheerfully). Of course, the curious thing about all of this is that celestial suicide is one of the things I was having as a possible fate for my Angel of Music (I'm still messing around with her: The prime characteristic of her is that she's "Done an Eli", except even more severe...literally no-one's seen her since she's left heaven (Prompted by the invention of recording devices for music, early last century, with her disillusionment increasing until her disappearance in the mid-fifties) But Anyway, that's for another time Loving you is sweeter than ever BSX ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 23:50:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Nana Yaw Ofori Subject: IN> Re: Celestial Suicide > >Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 18:51:36 GMT >From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) >Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #173 >But the biggest barrier is how to do it. You have to be in celestial form >to lose forces of any kind--even corporeal forces, strangely. Ok, you go >celestial and start hacking on yourself. You start losing forces at random >(p.64). If you lose all your celestial forces first, you become a remnant >in your vessel (with role, if any) but without memory. > >Hm. Ok, so if you've got vessels, you have to kill them first--which snaps >you back to your heart. No trauma for a Malakite, but there's his Superior >to deal with. So, as a practical matter, he (or any celestial) has to have >his Superior's agreement to suicide; in which case, the Archangel can >probably just kill him without trouble. Well, if you have only one Vessel, I don't think it's necessary to get permission. Just a way to kill your vessel after you become a Remnant. Go to a secluded spot. Take a nice load of explosives, strap it to your chest, and set the timer to go off in, say, sixty seconds. Go celestial. Your Vessel vanishes with the explosives. Start hammering at yourself. If you do wind up remnantizing yourself, your Heart will shatter, you'll manifest in your Vessel, unconscious, and with approximately a minute before (if you'll pardon the phrase) you blow yourself to kingdom come. I'm not sure what this would do to a Celestial with more than one Vessel. Hinges on what happens when a Remnant dies. = http://www.io.com/~beholder ===================== nofori@pop3.utoled.edu === Nana-Yaw "The Fish" Ofori, Freelance Soldier of Heck, presenty serving Kiernek, Calabite Captain of Fire, The Demon of Radiation. ===== ><{{"> ============ "Life's a Fish, then you Fry." ======= <"}}>< ====== ------------------------------ Date: 18 May 97 02:47:26 EDT From: Moriah - Steve Jackson Games <73407.515@CompuServe.COM> Subject: IN> Angels for everything >From: Earl Wajenberg >Subject: Re: IN> Angels for everything > >"Pantheist" might be a little strong, but the other charges stick. >And so? I thought the Talmud says somewhere there was an angel for >each blade of grass, urging it to grow. Interestingly, Jesus made it God's domain to watch over that sort of stuff as well as the birds of the sky, however, for children, they get guardian angels who gaze upon the face of God (the highest honor a creature can have). Regardless, IN NOMINE doesn't follow any one source canonically, so to speak. >And I think I read that in >an "Angels in the Architecture" article in Pyramid. Can't be VERY >heretical... That was before *I* was the line editor. The idea that there is an angel who watches Blade of Grass Number 348,872,973,728 makes for good scripture, good metaphor, good medieval theology, and good narrative; but it makes for bad role-playing game world design. Munchkin Player: "I walk out onto the lawn and call forth the ten thousand angels watching over the grass to assist me!" Peace, Moriah ------------------------------ Date: 18 May 97 02:47:29 EDT From: Moriah - Steve Jackson Games <73407.515@compuserve.com> Subject: IN> Seven Deadly Lists >From: John Maurer >Subject: Re: IN>Seven Deadly Suns > >I think the only lists of nifty things in the Bible are a) Things that love >is (Love is Always Patient, etc. Etc.) and b) The fruits of the spirit >(prophesy, speaking in tongues, the like) > >If only we had a roman catholic priest who could help us answer these >questions... Dammit, John, I'm a priest, not a concordance! ;) Other lists, such as the corporal works of mercy can be found in various places (Mt. 25 -- the Parable of the Sheep and Goats). But these lists were usually developed more as an exercise in philosophy by the numbers, i.e., the idea that there were a magic number of things -- seven this and three that -- rather than in seeking logical distinctions or an exhaustive list. Certainly there are more corporal acts of mercy than just seven. E.g., "Letting the guy with two items check out before you with your full cart" is a corporal act of mercy not found in scripture. The Aquinan/Aristotelian division of things and the lists that generate from that usually wind up being more logical (for example, the four cardinal virtues cover the three anthropological divisions of human nature (mind/prudence, will/fortitude, emotion/temperance) plus a balance in how they relate to the world (justice). A pre-Vatican II Council catechism can give you lots of neat lists. Peace, Moriah ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 03:51:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Calabim@aol.com Subject: Re: IN>Celestial Suicde On the topic of a Malakim committing suicide to atone for his dishonor; As everyone has said, a lot depends on what kind of Malakim his is. If he is cut from a strong samurai-type mold, then he probably will. Otherwise I don't think I'd let him do it. A large number of religions are big on forgiveness. A lot of Archangels are probably going to insist he do something dreary like atone, turn over a new leaf, and return to his duties. The topic of HOW to commit suicide does raise an interesting point. Others have already noted the difficulty involved. In my own world, there are a few angels (not many) who can not bear being what they are. They are Seraphs who lie, or Cherubs who can not bear devotion. They either hate what they are, or wish they were something else. These few angels often can not work their problems out, and *do* commit suicide. Their usual method is termed falling... I would imagine *actual* suicide is rather more common among demons. - -Calabim@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 09:12:07 EST From: temujin09@juno.com (Nathaniel P Eliot) Subject: Re: IN> Angels for everything >>And I think I read that in an "Angels in the Architecture" article >>in Pyramid. Can't be VERY heretical... > > That was before *I* was the line editor. > > The idea that there is an angel who watches Blade of Grass Number >348,872,973,728 makes for good scripture, good metaphor, good medieval >theology, and good narrative; but it makes for bad role-playing game >world design. > > Munchkin Player: "I walk out onto the lawn and call forth the ten >thousand angels watching over the grass to assist me!" That assumes that each angel is a force 9 angel, which I doubt. In fact, if they all got together and organized (which would be hard to get them to do unless you could convince them you were on *their* side), they might have about 1 force between them. If that. ============================================================= | | | /\ | | Nathaniel Eliot | Chaos, Discord, and the | / \ | | temujin09@juno.com | Illuminated Way | / <> \ | | | | /______\ | ============================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 12:06:31 -0400 (EDT) From: TSRInc@aol.com Subject: IN> Celestial Hearts in literature? Is the idea of a celestial's "heart" purely a work of the game designers, or has this or something similar been mentioned in literature before this? - - Sean ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 10:38:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Dennis Castello Subject: Re: IN>Celestial Suicde >On the topic of a Malakim committing suicide to atone for his dishonor; The only honorable way for a Malakim to commit suicide is to strap the celestial equivalent of a satchel charge to his back and go charging into Hell... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 19:59:06 GMT From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: Re: IN> Angels for everything On Sun, 18 May 1997 09:12:07 EST, temujin09@juno.com (Nathaniel P Eliot) wrote: >> Munchkin Player: "I walk out onto the lawn and call forth the ten >>thousand angels watching over the grass to assist me!" > >That assumes that each angel is a force 9 angel, which I doubt. In >fact, if they all got together and organized (which would be hard >to get them to do unless you could convince them you were on *their* >side), they might have about 1 force between them. If that. So bunches of little angels would jump out and start singing, We represent the Blade of Grass League, The Blade of Grass League, the Blade of Grass League. We represent the Blade of Grass League, And we'd like to welcome you to Munchkin Land! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 19:59:08 GMT From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: Re: IN> Re: Celestial Suicide On Sat, 17 May 1997 23:50:14 -0400 (EDT), Nana Yaw Ofori wrote: > Go to a secluded spot. Take a nice load of explosives, strap it to your >chest, and set the timer to go off in, say, sixty seconds. Go celestial. >Your Vessel vanishes with the explosives. Start hammering at yourself. If >you do wind up remnantizing yourself, your Heart will shatter, you'll >manifest in your Vessel, unconscious, and with approximately a minute before >(if you'll pardon the phrase) you blow yourself to kingdom come. Nice solution, as long as the Remnant doesn't take off the explosives after he manifests in his Vessel/Role: I don't think he'd remember why he was wearing them, but if he had a role, he might recognize what they were. > I'm not sure what this would do to a Celestial with more than one >Vessel. Hinges on what happens when a Remnant dies. If you have a body bag, I think you could kill the extra Vessels without being in them and getting trauma. That's an interesting question about Remnants: would he shift to another Vessel with another Role? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 08:25:32 GMT+10 From: "Leathal Weapon" <938269@wrpc.riv.csu.edu.au> Subject: Re: IN> Re: Celestial Suicide In reply to: > > Go to a secluded spot. Take a nice load of explosives, strap it to your > >chest, and set the timer to go off in, say, sixty seconds. Go celestial. > >Your Vessel vanishes with the explosives. Start hammering at yourself. If > >you do wind up remnantizing yourself, your Heart will shatter, you'll > >manifest in your Vessel, unconscious, and with approximately a minute before > >(if you'll pardon the phrase) you blow yourself to kingdom come. > > Nice solution, as long as the Remnant doesn't take off the explosives after > he manifests in his Vessel/Role: I don't think he'd remember why he was > wearing them, but if he had a role, he might recognize what they were. > Hey Walt, go back an re-read the first paragraph. Note the words "timer", "sixty seconds" and "unconscious". It makes a little more sense now, doesn't it? :) Leath (Being sarcastic, but not in a nasty way). ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 10:33:00 +1000 From: Mark Grundy Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #173 RogueLdr wrote: | Can a Celestial commit soul-suicide? Just disband their own forces, | throwing them back to the Symphony? One of my players, a Malakim who lost | himself in the heat of the moment and did something *extremely* | dishonorable, is considering this. I'm leaning towards allowing it. What | does everyone think? We encountered this question in our game. I offer these as ideas for you, but don't insist that they're the best ones for your group. My take is that angelic suicide through disbanding of forces is a selfish act -- it deprives the Symphony of the service of one of its instruments, and puts the angel's shame, guilt, or frustration above the good of the world. A true instrument continues to serve anyway, even if it's demoted, blamed, outcast, reviled and uncertain of its own value -- you can find examples of this even among the archangels. If an angel attempts to destroy itself by disbanding its forces, it will Fall instantly... devolving to a demonic state in which it seeks to look after only itself -- the character might continue be run by the player, or be played as an NPC. On the other hand, there'd be no problem if the Malakim destroyed itself through conflict with the enemy -- especially if it were enemy involved in the original problem. In doing so, the Malakim would be continuing to serve the symphony, and would be entirely true to its own nature. And perhaps, if the Malakim triumphed, the shame and dishonour would be expunged. Some opportunities in this approach are: * It creates a neat contrast with human despair and selfishness. * You get some interesting takes on Gabriel's situation, and the Grigori's. * You get a nice harmony with many Christian beliefs about human suicide. * You can create a class of `tripped' angels of all kinds, who are in utter despair over the conflicts between their own ideals and the practicalities of their work. These can serve as examples of angels at their rock-bottom. Cheers, Mark - -- Dr Mark Grundy, DCS, Phone: +61-6-249 3785 Education Co-ordinator, Fax: +61-6-249 0010 CRC for Advanced Computational Systems, The Australian National University, Web: http://cs.anu.edu.au/~Mark.Grun dy 0200 Australia Email: Mark.Grundy@anu.edu.au ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 04:03:54 GMT From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: Re: IN> Re: Celestial Suicide On Mon, 19 May 1997 08:25:32 GMT+10, "Leathal Weapon" <938269@wrpc.riv.csu.edu.au> wrote: >Hey Walt, go back an re-read the first paragraph. Note the words >"timer", "sixty seconds" and "unconscious". It makes a little more >sense now, doesn't it? :) Good point. I missed the part about a Remnant being unconscious for 2d6 hours. ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #175 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.