From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Fri May 23 03:59:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA19672 for ; Fri, 23 May 1997 03:59:05 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA15511 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Fri, 23 May 1997 03:20:23 -0500 Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 03:20:23 -0500 Message-Id: <199705230820.DAA15511@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #180 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Friday, May 23 1997 Volume 01 : Number 180 In this digest: IN> Bodhisattvas Re: IN> Bodhisattvas Re: IN> Redemption for Lilim? Re: IN> Redemption for Lilim? Re: IN> Gabriel question Re: IN> Redemption for Lilim? Re: IN> Redemption for Lilim? Re: IN> Screwtape, Demon of Temptation Re: IN> In Nomine in Space (fluff) IN> Tiamanicus - any comments ? Re: IN> Re: Automated email searches Re: IN> Redemption for Lilim? IN> Fixing Flight Re: IN> Redemption for Lilim? IN> Geasa and Need question Re: IN> Redemption for Lilim? Re: IN> Redemption for Lilim? Re: IN> Redemption for Lilim? Re: IN> Geasa and Need question Re: IN> Re: Automated email searches IN> Corporeal, Ethereal and Celestial Fighting, Dodging--and Acrobatics? IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #179 Re: IN> Redemption for Lilim? Re: IN> In Nomine in Space (fluff) Re: IN> Geasa and Need question Re: IN> Redemption for Lilim? Re: IN> New seed idea (BTW its NOT serious) Re: IN> Geasa and Need question ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 17:31:09 +0100 From: Timothy Clay Subject: IN> Bodhisattvas Dear all While not wishing to open any particular cans of worms, and recognising the Jewish/Christian/Islamic milieu of In Nomine, what about Bodhisattvas? Do they have a place in the Symphony, does Avalokitesvara have the Word of Compassion, or are they and other figures of Eastern spirituality (ie. Lao Tzu possibility for the 'word' of longevity) consigned to the Marches? Tim ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 13:29:56 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Bodhisattvas Bodhisatvahs are described briefly in the IN book, in broadly the same terms as they are defined in Buddhism. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 May 97 14:38 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Redemption for Lilim? [johnk:] > Redeemed or 'Bright' Lilim are indeed possible, though >very rare. The real question is, are they any rarer than redeemed demons in general? It seems to me than Lilim are perhaps a little more likely to go for voluntary Redemption than the average demon -- their intrinsic nature seems to be a bit less "evil", though they *are* supposed to partake of their mother's selfishness. This seems most likely with the "Free" Lilim. "Why can't I work for the Other Side if I want? Aren't I supposed to be *free*?" On a related note, I've been thinking a bit about "gray" characters in general -- ones who don't belong to either side entirely. Besides Free Lilim, there is also the case of Habbalah who've taken a 111 "lashback" on the Emptiness emotion. They're supposedly no longer deluded about their nature (and no longer evil?). This opens the interesting possiblity of a "good" Habbalite Renegade -- one who hasn't yet been Redeemed (and is probably therefore on the run from Asmodeus), and goes around using the Habbalah resonance for good purposes. "Why should I want to be Redeemed? Being an Elohite is *no* fun, and I can do more good this way -- I'm unique!" On the other hand, such a character is probably going to be as much of a loose cannon as Gabriel, since they'd be strongly influenced by the emotions of themselves and others. Could be kinda amusing.... Some of the more pragmatic Archangels might even go along with it -- having a "demonic" servitor might come in handy now and again.... Another interesting notion is the notion of "spontaneous" Redemption -- a demon becoming an angel *without* the intervention of an Archangel. Presumably this might occur to an already-repentant Renegade with some kind of Divine Intervention. Clearly, if this is possible at all, it should be *very* rare, and should have all kinds of amusing political ramifications when people find out that it's happened. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 15:52:34 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Redemption for Lilim? > Another interesting notion is the notion of "spontaneous" Redemption -- > a demon becoming an angel *without* the intervention of an Archangel. > Presumably this might occur to an already-repentant Renegade with some > kind of Divine Intervention. Clearly, if this is possible at all, it > should be *very* rare, and should have all kinds of amusing political > ramifications when people find out that it's happened. This could be fun for a GM... a plot element without any game mechanics. A _lot_ of my In Nomine campaigns are based around events without a lick of mechanics to support them. ;) Hmmmm.... I think I may use this, or something much like this soon. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | "A fundamental principle of economics is that the | | more you tax something, the less you get of it. | | In this country we tax success most of all." | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 20:39:11 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Gabriel question At 6:59 PM +1000 5/21/97, Peter Frederick wrote: >Dear Kurt, John, Shadow and List > >just another Gabriel question while we are thinking about them. > >Do Servitors of Gabriel gain Dissonance while in Heaven for not punishing >there assigned class of sinners? Only if they stumble across one up there. They don't have to hunt their assigned class, they just have to punish them as they turn up, IIRC. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 16:20:11 -0400 (EDT) From: The Quixotic Ninja Subject: Re: IN> Redemption for Lilim? > It seems to me than Lilim are perhaps a little more likely to go for > voluntary Redemption than the average demon -- their intrinsic nature > seems to be a bit less "evil", though they *are* supposed to partake of > their mother's selfishness. This seems most likely with the "Free" > Lilim. "Why can't I work for the Other Side if I want? Aren't I > supposed to be *free*?" This sounds about right to me. I could imagine one potential stumbling block, though. To an angel, members of the other six Bands could be viewed as either "lost siblings" (those who Fell) or at least beings modeled after them (those who were Infernally created) who could eventually *become* the sorts of Angels they were familiar with. A Bright Lilim, on the other hand, might be viewed as something "unnatural" by an angel with prejudicial tendencies... some might even refuse to accept such a creature as truly Divine, believing that they have found a way to cleverly disguise their *true* nature, and are secretly still working for Lilith and/or Lucifer. Such a scenario could leave a Bright Lilim persecuted, or even hunted, by *both* sides. Quite an existence... > This opens the interesting possiblity of a "good" Habbalite Renegade -- > one who hasn't yet been Redeemed (and is probably therefore on the run > from Asmodeus), and goes around using the Habbalah resonance for good > purposes. "Why should I want to be Redeemed? Being an Elohite is *no* > fun, and I can do more good this way -- I'm unique!" I'd have to think about this one, but it's a fascinating idea. (Of course, I've always been a proponent of including a minimum of three sides in every conflict. :) > On the other hand, such a character is probably going to be as much of a > loose cannon as Gabriel, since they'd be strongly influenced by the > emotions of themselves and others. Could be kinda amusing.... I so very much love writing plots around Gabriel... she's so bloody capricious (or crazy, same thing :) that there isn't much I can't see her doing on a whim, at least for a *short* while. After that, things can get *really* messy... > Another interesting notion is the notion of "spontaneous" Redemption -- > a demon becoming an angel *without* the intervention of an Archangel. > Presumably this might occur to an already-repentant Renegade with some > kind of Divine Intervention. Clearly, if this is possible at all, it > should be *very* rare, and should have all kinds of amusing political > ramifications when people find out that it's happened. Hmm. Well, such a celestial would have no heart (the Infernal one would shatter, yes?), no way to get back to Heaven, and no Superior -- sounds like a recipe for an instant Outcast. Again, quite an existence, but it wouldn't be dull... :) - -- John Trussell truss@gweep.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 20:38:08 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Redemption for Lilim? At 8:13 PM -0400 5/20/97, Steve Syrek wrote: >I hope this question hasn't been answered already, but is it impossible for >Lilim to achieve redemption as it is impossible for Malakim to fall? I know >they never fell to begin with, but is it possible for a Lilim to wish to be >"good" instead of "evil" or is it just absolutely contrary to their natures? p. 149, under "Redemption." "...and yes, it can happen..." They still have to pay off their Geasa, which are likely to be held by Lilith or various demons, though, which can make life difficult. Among other things, it just really wrecks your day to be Geased to do something that your Superior frowns on. Dissonant if you do and dissonant if you don't... Hm. The description of dissonance effects under Geas isn't entirely clear to me. Oh Great Karakash, can a Geas-inflicted dissonance be enough to Trip an angel? Make one Fall? - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 20:42:54 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Screwtape, Demon of Temptation At 9:08 AM -0500 5/21/97, Earl Wajenberg wrote: >His luckless nephew, the late Wormwood, was just a "junior tempter," >and so I think would have been an entry-level 9-force celestial. Or a 7-forcer, as is "entry level" for demons (just not demon PCs). >I suppose he was a Balseraph, too, but "tempter" would be a natural >occupation for an Impudite, wouldn't it? Aren't they subtitled >"The Tempters" in the book? No, Balseraph are Liars. Impudites are Takers (leeches!) Lilim are Tempters. Or Temptresses. Oh, here's a genie for you -- a Lilim Bound to an object like a lamp, or vase. A Temptress in a Teapot. {{K.K., get off my computer! NOW! You want people hating *you*, not me! And besides, the Geas duration is over.}} emccoy@nh.ultranet.com, Uppity Wynch http://brie.bmsc.washington.edu/people/merritt/books/Eye_of_Argon.html "rumoured to contain hoards of plunder, and many young wenches" Mike [falsetto]: "We're tired of these degrading patriachical slurs! From now on we demand to be called 'wynchys.'" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 20:32:49 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine in Space (fluff) At 7:06 AM -0500 5/21/97, Nathaniel P Eliot wrote: >>>I dunno - how many forces does something that can set fire to a >>>planet count as? (actually, this is a semi-serious question - >>>Kyriotate of Jean could take over a tank for one force, making >>>it one of the worlds worst combat monsters) >> >>Oh, who needs a tank? Just use the Song of Form on your car >>that gives you damage-resistance... Then run people down. >>But adding Numinious Corpus: Wings and *landing* on demons >>just isn't fair. Then again, since when have Kyrios not >>serving the Sword *had* to fight fair? > >You know, I think that the fact that the tank has a belt fed >machine gun and more armor than a car tips things in it >favor. And the main gun is just sickening. Weeeellllll, true. And think of the *Wings* on that sucker! [Lilim of Vapula trying to Geas Data] >>This is what you *GET* when you try to Geas something that >>probably has a very high Will and may or may not be >>vunerable to the Song of Celestial Charm... > >She assumed that he was a starting character, and because he >had high Corporeal and Ethereal, he had to have lower >Celestial. She was wrong... (can you say dissonant Elohim >of Jean, anyone?) Hmmmmm! Yeah, that sounds interesting too... This is scary. >>[Though you'd think that a normal Lilim would get the dissonance >>the instant that the target resisted the Geas? Unless it was only >>*right then* that she was invoking it, in the "blow up that ship" >>command? Yeah, that sounds right. Brick of Dissonance, right in >>the face.] > >He didn't resist the Geas, he resisted it's use. Hm. Sounds like a terminology difference -- I don't count a Lilim's Geas as a "Geas" until she actually calls it in, requesting the Favor and testing to see if it will "take" or not. It's a proto-Geas till then. So she'd only get dissonance for invoking, when the Will roll to defeat it would occur. >>>>[we gotta stop this one... this thread could get *silly*...] >>> >>>And of course, that's been avoided so far. >> >> Of course. >> >>Now, don't think of Klingons and Malakim debating honor. > >Wouldn't that be redundant? I could swear Klingons were >proto-Malakim (or maybe the other way around...) Yes, but what one considers honorable, another might not. (Now we know what vessels Star Trek Malakim prefer!) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 17:12:01 -0400 From: "Matthias Müller" Subject: IN> Tiamanicus - any comments ? Hello everybody, Are there really no comments about the Demon Prince of Deception so far ? What do you think about him ? I'd really like to get your opinion. Thanks ! -Matioki ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 17:21:44 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Re: Automated email searches At 10:32 PM -0500 5/21/97, tom timberlake wrote: >thanks, Mark, for saying what I was feeling with regard to this */=//**= >advertisements. wish I knew the email address of a Calabim of Jean to >sic on these guys {I know Calabim don't work for Jean, but I'm >stretching it to make a point}. I just NetScape over to: http://rs.internic.net/cgi-bin/whois and start looking up the addresses listed in the spam, and the numeric addresses in the Headers (preferably the ones that *sent* it, as opposed to the ones it was sent through), and then I foward off a complaint to all the postmaster/abuse sites that I can find as involved in the problem. As can be expected by at *least* 75% of the email spam, it was from Cyberpromo in the end, and therefore AGIS. Try noc@agis.net, since abuse@agis.net just gets you an automated response. (Or be kind and use abuse@agis.net and tie up their SMTP server a little -- but remember, one person, one complaint. To do other- wise is harassment and possibly illegal. On the other hand, if every one of us on the list that was spammed complained.... One person, one complaint....) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 17:50:30 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Redemption for Lilim? > Hm. The description of dissonance effects under Geas isn't entirely > clear to me. Oh Great Karakash, can a Geas-inflicted dissonance be > enough to Trip an angel? Make one Fall? Dissonance is acting against your 'basic nature' so you can fall just easily (more so, in many cases) from the Geas-dissonance as any other source. This brings up a point. A lot of people have been talking about going on adventures to help a Lilim become 'bright'. Certainly there must be demons out there working on tripping up a Bright Lilim... evil, eh? - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | "A fundamental principle of economics is that the | | more you tax something, the less you get of it. | | In this country we tax success most of all." | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 17:51:14, -0500 From: ZFWZ53B@prodigy.com (MR DON W BLAGG) Subject: IN> Fixing Flight In our local game I am going to change the rules for flight. As I see it there are four options and I am interested in experienced player's input. So feel free to vote for the option you like the most or add your own. 1) Keep the rules as is. 2) Allow a character to fly at the winged creature speed given in the book as 10 x AGI. 3) Set the flying speed at 2 x AGI x Level of the Song. 4) Allow characters to fly at double their ground speed (This one was generously suggested by Scott Turnbull). My vote is for option 3. A Celestial will not have an extraordinary velocity unless they buy the Song at relatively high level. At level 4 which seems to be a turning point amongst the Nominous Corpus the speed finally exceeds the Celestial's ground movement and a level 6 the angel may outfly a natural winged creature of his Agility. Another option I am considering involves Kyriotates. Several AA give their Kyriotates the option of having vessels. The question is how much of their force do they spend maintaining the vessels. What I propose is if the vessel costs points to set the level (ie. David) then it takes 3 forces to maintain (the same cost as manifesting celestially) no matter what the level since the player has already "paid" for the vessel. On the other hand is the vessel is free (ie Lawrence) then it takes the Level of the vessel to maintain. Thanks to everyone who responded to my last post, you helped alot. By the way if anyone has an opening in an In Nominae PBEM game I am interested. (Be warned I have never played PBEM before). Roger Hightower ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 17:47:55 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Redemption for Lilim? At 4:20 PM -0400 5/22/97, The Quixotic Ninja wrote: [...] >> Another interesting notion is the notion of "spontaneous" Redemption -- >> a demon becoming an angel *without* the intervention of an Archangel. >> Presumably this might occur to an already-repentant Renegade with some >> kind of Divine Intervention. Clearly, if this is possible at all, it >> should be *very* rare, and should have all kinds of amusing political >> ramifications when people find out that it's happened. > >Hmm. Well, such a celestial would have no heart (the Infernal one would >shatter, yes?), no way to get back to Heaven, and no Superior -- sounds like >a recipe for an instant Outcast. Again, quite an existence, but it wouldn't >be dull... :) Oh, never dull... Actually, if it were a true redemption, all that would be needed would be a Tether to Heaven, or to follow a Hearted angel there -- I would think. I mean, do Relievers have Hearts? - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 17:58:41 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Geasa and Need question Okay, hypothetical question here: You've got Joe Mundane (this guy has the Discord of Unluckiness!) here, being held hostage with a gun to his head. Jane Lilim looks him in the eyes and makes her Perception roll to uncover a Need. Questions: Should this *really* be a random thing now -- where "I need a new car" or "I'd really like a promotion" or "SAVE MY LIFE!" are all equally possible Needs to sense at that instant? Should the most *pressing* Need appear on any successful invocation of the Lilim resonance, in serious situations like that? Should it appear "alone," as the "only" Need available at that time? Or would it appear along with the other, "usual" Need that would have been sensed under normal circumstances? What level of Need is "SAVE MY LIFE"? It probably won't take long, does that make it a Geas/1? But it's kinda important and risky and very urgent, so is it a Geas/6? Geas equal to corporeal forces? Geas equal to total forces? If Jane Lilim *fails* her Perception roll, but saves his life anyway, does she have no ability to ask a Favor in return at all? Is it a Geas vs. straight Will (no minuses)? Would she do better to just ask a favor (little "f") and leave Geasa out of it totally? What if it's Joe Celestial who needs a rescue? Can she get a "Thanks, I owe you one" out of him and *then* reveal that she's a Lilim? Would that acknowledgement of Debt put a Geas onto Joe Celestial? For what level? Level of Vessel if only vessel-death? Level of Forces if he had been in danger of being Force-stripped (bailed out while being pounded in celestial combat, say)? - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 18:51:57 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Redemption for Lilim? At 5:50 PM -0400 5/22/97, John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: >> Hm. The description of dissonance effects under Geas isn't entirely >> clear to me. Oh Great Karakash, can a Geas-inflicted dissonance be >> enough to Trip an angel? Make one Fall? > > Dissonance is acting against your 'basic nature' so you >can fall just easily (more so, in many cases) from the Geas-dissonance >as any other source. Right, but p. 88 also says, "A celestial gains 1 note of dissonance for every increment of time that passes before he fulfills his promise, but dissonance acquired from a geas doesn't require a new dissonance roll (see p. 57)." Does this mean that if you weren't dissonant before, you only have to roll for 1 note? I would assume that to be the case, since it also says, "Once the geas is fulfilled, the associated dissonance vanishes." Other question, can there be a Geas to "Not interfere with [x] for a [increment suiting Geas level]"? I would think there *ought* to be such a thing (where dissonance is taken for interfering with [x]), but the mechanics don't seem to admit to it easily, what with the "interval" thing. (I know how I'd house rule it; I'm just bringing it to people's attention...) > This brings up a point. A lot of people have been talking >about going on adventures to help a Lilim become 'bright'. Certainly >there must be demons out there working on tripping up a Bright Lilim... >evil, eh? Why do you think they're so rare? - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 May 97 19:02 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Redemption for Lilim? > This brings up a point. A lot of people have been talking >about going on adventures to help a Lilim become 'bright'. Certainly >there must be demons out there working on tripping up a Bright Lilim... >evil, eh? I've also been assuming that Asmodeus would target them, even after Redemption, as being really bad examples for other Lilim (who probably aren't very trustworthy, after all, especially the "free" ones). And Dominic probably distrusts them rather a lot, especially if they have Geasa left, so maybe he doesn't work too hard to keep his old "friend" Azzy off their tails.... So it seems likely that Bright Lilim have an interesting time of things, what with old friends calling them up and asking for favors, and half the people on their new side distrusting them, and the Other Side trying hard to rend them Force from Force.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 18:54:03 -0500 From: tom timberlake Subject: Re: IN> Redemption for Lilim? aaahhhh, but MICHAEL doesn't care for the "hyena of Heaven", so there may be help for a Bright Lilim in unexpected places, especially since MICHAEL is a Seraphim and can give them the 3rd degree himself as to whether their Redemption is real or not [i shudder to think how many Forces he has available to boost the certainty of a true result]. David, Stone Malakim. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 19:49:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Kim Foster Subject: Re: IN> Geasa and Need question Along the lines of the other questions posted here. Can a lilm create a Need and then fullfull it to create a succesful geas? Say..let the air out of someone's tires and then provide them a ride as poor example. Can God make a plot so twisted even he can't figure it out? Tom Servo -MST 3K "The Island of Dr Fu Manchu" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 20:02:45 -0500 (CDT) From: Austin George Loomis Subject: Re: IN> Re: Automated email searches On Thu, 22 May 1997, at 02:11:43 EDT, Calabim@aol.com wrote, replying to Tom Timberlake: >In a message dated 97-05-22 01:59:53 EDT, you write: > ><< thanks, Mark, for saying what I was feeling with regard to this */=//**= > advertisements. wish I knew the email address of a Calabim of Jean to > sic on these guys {I know Calabim don't work for Jean, but I'm > stretching it to make a point}. > > tom >> > >It's funny you should mention that...Have you checked out the ofanite of >Jean? That's the closest you can come and it should toast the spammer quite >well. (Though you would have to get into his system first...) > >- -Calabim@aol.com I thought of that after reading the comment about the "Calabite of Jean," but before reading Calabim's reply. (The closest other-side equivalent would be a Cal of Vapula, except that there aren't any of *those* either.) Of course, you'd have to send the Ofanite in through a system you could afford to lose. And you'd have to find out where the Bozo's system is. I suggest having a Cherub of Jean send one of his attuned in there, then use his Choir Attunement to call him up on the nearest phone. This, with any luck, has the added advantage of taking one of the Bozo's phone- lines temporarily out of use. Austin George "And obliterating one, if the Ofanite decides to make it his exit" Loomis ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 01:30:37 GMT From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: IN> Corporeal, Ethereal and Celestial Fighting, Dodging--and Acrobatics? According to the latest errata, for Corporeal, Ethereal and Celestial combat, the Fighting skill is now based on Strength, Intelligence and Will, respectively, and the Dodge skill is based on Agility, Precision and Perception. Query: Should the Acrobatics skill act like Dodge, always be based on Agility no matter the type of combat or only be available for Corporeal combat? Acting like the Dodge skill seems most in keeping with the rest of the system. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 21:32:19 -0500 (CDT) From: rogue@ez-net.com (RogueLdr) Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #179 > > >Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 06:55:20 EST >From: temujin09@juno.com (Nathaniel P Eliot) >Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #177 > >>Anybody care to think about a really high-force Kyrio of Jean >>possessing the Death Star? > >According to the rules, one with 1 force left could do it. >Scary, huh? ugh, ugh, ugh, triple ugh. Thank goodness the world isn't wuite that high-tech yet. Still and all, anyone want to think about an unblanaced Kyrio Of Jean getting a hold of a Minuteman nuke missile silo- or at least the guidance system on one of the rockets? - -Rogue ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 22:15:47 EST From: temujin09@juno.com (Nathaniel P Eliot) Subject: Re: IN> Redemption for Lilim? >> This opens the interesting possiblity of a "good" Habbalite Renegade >> -- one who hasn't yet been Redeemed (and is probably therefore on >> the run from Asmodeus), and goes around using the Habbalah resonance >> for good purposes. "Why should I want to be Redeemed? Being an >> Elohite is *no* fun, and I can do more good this way -- I'm unique!" > >I'd have to think about this one, but it's a fascinating idea. (Of >course, I've always been a proponent of including a minimum of three >sides in every conflict. :) I have a question in the other direction: it seems that Kyriotates have a really long way to Fall. Is there anything a Kyriotate can be other than a Shedim, who seem the psychotic to every other demon's personality problem? ============================================================= | | | /\ | | Nathaniel Eliot | Chaos, Discord, and the | / \ | | temujin09@juno.com | Illuminated Way | / <> \ | | | | /______\ | ============================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 22:41:29 EST From: temujin09@juno.com (Nathaniel P Eliot) Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine in Space (fluff) >>>Oh, who needs a tank? Just use the Song of Form on your car >>>that gives you damage-resistance... Then run people down. >>>But adding Numinious Corpus: Wings and *landing* on demons >>>just isn't fair. Then again, since when have Kyrios not >>>serving the Sword *had* to fight fair? >> >>You know, I think that the fact that the tank has a belt fed >>machine gun and more armor than a car tips things in it >>favor. And the main gun is just sickening. > >Weeeellllll, true. And think of the *Wings* on that sucker! Hmmm - I'm thinking that Wings would cause problems with clearance. Corporeal Song of Motion would probably be better. >[Lilim of Vapula trying to Geas Data] >>>This is what you *GET* when you try to Geas something that >>>probably has a very high Will and may or may not be >>>vunerable to the Song of Celestial Charm... >> >>She assumed that he was a starting character, and because he >>had high Corporeal and Ethereal, he had to have lower >>Celestial. She was wrong... (can you say dissonant Elohim >>of Jean, anyone?) > >Hmmmmm! Yeah, that sounds interesting too... This is scary. So far we have a Lilim of Vapula with a rite or two from Saminga (to create the Borg, who are Zombi, natch), and a dissonant (possibly even Outcast) Elohim of Jean. Picard - a Soldier of God who narrowly escaped one of her rites, giving him a Cherub-like attunement to her and her Zombi's, and an Obsession. Jordi - despite the name, a Soldier of Jean with the Malakim attunement. Worf - Malakim of Laurence, natch. ============================================================= | | | /\ | | Nathaniel Eliot | Chaos, Discord, and the | / \ | | temujin09@juno.com | Illuminated Way | / <> \ | | | | /______\ | ============================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 23:45:27 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> Geasa and Need question > Should this *really* be a random thing now -- where "I need a new > car" or "I'd really like a promotion" or "SAVE MY LIFE!" are > all equally possible Needs to sense at that instant? Personally, I take that capital "N" to be some indication; "Save my life" is a Need; "I'd really like a promotion" is just an "I'd really like..", and even "needing a new car" is just a need. Regarding both that and the level of it, my understanding/thought is that it should base heavily on -their perceptions-; after all, they're the one who Needs and who'll be Geased. So with a gun to their head, "Save my life!" is likely to be the only Need coming to mind, unless there's something weird going on. (If she looks into the eyes of someone who should be Joe Mundane About-to-Die, and he's thinking, "I really Need to know if I left the iron on..", the Lilim should have some reason to think this guy's either insane or something interesting...like a Servitor of the Game using the Humanity Attunement.) > of the Lilim resonance, in serious situations like that? Should > it appear "alone," as the "only" Need available at that time? Or It wouldn't necessarily be alone either; there are several Needs that would flash through the mind of someone in that situation. "Safe my life," "Take care of my daughter," "Fix my will so that brat son-in-law doesn't get anything," "avenge me"...The big question on the last being whether just offing the current Vessel of her friend who's about to kill Joe would count. (Well, okay, the bigger question being how the heck he's going to pay her back if it's really avenging.) > If Jane Lilim *fails* her Perception roll, but saves his life > anyway, does she have no ability to ask a Favor in return at all? It certainly seems the Perception roll is integral to invoking the Resonance bonuses, but there's no reason a Lilim can't still do it like everyone else anyway...what's "better" is going to depend on the circumstances. > a Lilim? Would that acknowledgement of Debt put a Geas onto Joe > Celestial? For what level? Level of Vessel if only vessel-death? Ooh, nasty one...convice a Malakim he's agreed to a favor, and require something dishonorable. Just be ready to run, because he'll probably figure that if he's eating dissonance anyway, he might as well kill the Lilim and not have to deal with that, too. Still, I think an actual Geas has to be more knowingly accepted or forced...I wouldn't let casual conversation count for a full Geas. (Except maybe for a Bright Lilim of Marc...) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 00:00:58 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> Redemption for Lilim? > It seems to me than Lilim are perhaps a little more likely to go for > voluntary Redemption than the average demon -- their intrinsic nature There's a good case for them being less likely, too, though; primarily, on the grounds that they have that option the others don't. If, say, a Balseraph decides to go, he has two real choices; Renegade, and be on the run from everyone, or try for Redemption and at least have some people on his side. A Lilim, in theory, can just work off her debts and go Free... Plus, going for Redemption is a little more significant for the others. A Redeemed Lilim is just "Bright"; she's still Lilim, and could go back to the Other Side if she felt like it. A Redeemed Calabim is suddenly Ophanim, which entails a radical shift in Resonance...with all that implies. ("It's weird; suddenly I think about going OVER the wall instead of ripping it apart to go THROUGH...") Given that, Lilim DON'T really Redeem. They just change business partners. > This opens the interesting possiblity of a "good" Habbalite Renegade -- > one who hasn't yet been Redeemed (and is probably therefore on the run Seems very likely, actually, given their delusion...I could see a dose of Divine Logic from a Servitor of Yves actually working on a Habbalite, since all they have is a warped version of what "Good" is; you don't have to get them to change sides, just point out a couple new slants to their philosophy. Offhand I'm not even sure they'd have to strictly go Renegade, though I wouldn't quibble the point with Asmodeus... > Another interesting notion is the notion of "spontaneous" Redemption -- "Whoops." "What is it, Jerry?" "Er, um...nothing, Mauler. I just, ah, feel kinda funny. I've, um, gotta go make a phone call...back in a sec.." Speaking of grey types...is it just me, or is the real reason Malakim don't fall just because they don't have to change sides for it? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 00:16:55 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> New seed idea (BTW its NOT serious) > could be used as a PC too. I have not included and stats for the Demon of > Drugs, but he has given one rite to his gangsters: Regain one Essence any Just a quick thought, but I could see using the Nightlife rules on drugs...(for those unfamiliar, they tend to have more physical effects, like melting your eyes or making you explode. It's only temporary, but..) For an Angel OR Demon, I could see drugs seriously mucking about with your Resonance. (With some exceptions and some exceptionals. Speed for an Ophanim is just redundant, for example, while Ecstacy on an Elohim is just mean.) Servitors of Drugs would probably get drug-related abilities..(Balseraphs could induce LSD-like hallucinations, etc.) > Actually, I wanted to add a really groovy subplot about what happens if a > celestial's Heart is stolen, and the power over a cellie this can grant to the That's one I've been wondering about as well. (I've got an Outcast Malakim {very much in hiding, thanks, so don't ask WHERE I have him...} who got caught trying to steal the Angel of Cats' heart because, well, he wanted the Word and thought he deserved it more. [It's a thin line between Honor and Pride - he hasn't Fallen, but I've got some ideas on the matter..] He was interrupted, but...) I wouldn't suggest stealing a Malakim's heart, though, on the subject - they're not affected by Trauma, after all, so they just have to get themselves killed and *poof*, there they are, ready to rumble...and if there's one thing a Malakim can probably arrange in short order, it's getting killed. ("Hey, tell me again where you saw those six 7-foot-tall Djinn..?") > any ideas, new NPCs, any subplots?? Subplots? You want subplots on that? Heh. Though on the additional-NPCs, there's the amusing Dusk-'Til-Dawn thought of the old renegade Lilim of Saminga out there making all those vampires... ___ _ | | | |HE |_INTKIN|_\--------------------------------------------------------| | Gaming Coordinator: Anaconism III: http://www.xpert.net/ibecc/anacon/ | | Lifetime Member of IBECC / SysOp: TAG (303) 722-6881 / Mortijinglist | | Home Page http://www.a-ztech.com/lintking/ * jIg nOIr mELt productions| |_______________________________________________________________________| ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 02:32:13 -0500 (CDT) From: Donald G Bixler Subject: Re: IN> Geasa and Need question > Personally, I take that capital "N" to be some indication; "Save > my life" is a Need; "I'd really like a promotion" is just an "I'd really > like..", and even "needing a new car" is just a need. Regarding both that > and the level of it, my understanding/thought is that it should base > heavily on -their perceptions-; after all, they're the one who Needs and > who'll be Geased. Of course, humans can be quite irrational, so a Need/6 of "Please feed my cats tonight." isn't out of the question. Perspective and all that. > It wouldn't necessarily be alone either; there are several Needs > that would flash through the mind of someone in that situation. "Safe my > life," "Take care of my daughter," "Fix my will so that brat son-in-law > doesn't get anything," "avenge me"...The big question on the last being > whether just offing the current Vessel of her friend who's about to kill > Joe would count. (Well, okay, the bigger question being how the heck he's > going to pay her back if it's really avenging.) Oooh! Necromancy! Go celestial, grab the soul and slap it into one of the In Nomine World Order cards (thanks for getting the idea stuck in my head, ArchBeth! ;'p ) until it can repay you. Evil thought, really, and probably quite effective if allowed. > It certainly seems the Perception roll is integral to invoking the > Resonance bonuses, but there's no reason a Lilim can't still do it like > everyone else anyway...what's "better" is going to depend on the > circumstances. I personally would say no, that that is in the realm of favors with a lower-case "f". I don't really have much to back it up, but I feel that in order to get the proper circumstances for a Favor to stick you would need the Perception roll... > Ooh, nasty one...convice a Malakim he's agreed to a favor, and > require something dishonorable. Just be ready to run, because he'll > probably figure that if he's eating dissonance anyway, he might as well > kill the Lilim and not have to deal with that, too. A fun situation. The big question is: will Dominic consider the Malakim's excuse good enough? If Dommie's feeling like being particularly stubborn, the Malakim could be in a world of trouble... Oops da "Hi LintKing! Say hi to MaBarry for me." Ogre mudgb4@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #180 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.